Re: Hot Debate, Need Some Opinions

[Guest guest]

My husband looks as this surgery the same way your boyfriend does

and thinks it is all cosmetic, but what I told my husband is, if it

is cosmetic why is our insurance paying for it? He seems to

understand a little more, but I have not totally swayed his opinion

of the surgery. If the surgery is going to make you feel better

about yourself, than who care what anyone else thinks.

>

> My boyfriend and I were having a big argument regarding my jaw

> surgery. Fisrt, he strongly believes that the reason I want to do

surgery

> is purely cosmetic concerned. No matter of what, he always refer

to my

> surgery plan as " a cosmetic surgery. " I would admit that part of

it is for

> cosmetic purpose, but not all. Some of it are for my jaw function

and

> speech improvement. Eventhough it is for cosmetic, I don't think

it is a

> severe crime. I need some self-confidence to enter job market and

he

> should pay some respect on my decision (I am a 100% financially

> suporting myself).

>

> Second, when he learned that I am trying very hard to do, no

matter of

> what, he was convincing me that I should seek surgeons and get

> surgery in Las Vegas, Nevada. I am living in Illinois, and I don't

> understand why it has to be " Las Vegas? " When I asked him on what

> basis he pick that place and surgeons from that place, he kind of

> reasons that people overthere are doing lots of " cosmetic surgery "

and

> since they do " it " all the time, the surgeon there must be better

than

> anywhere (since we start to date, he kept saying that Las Vegas

has

> lots of gorgeous people becuase of " cosmetic surgery. " ) He also

says

> that since there is a high demand, supply (surgeon fees and

hospital

> fees) would be lower than in IL??????? I definitely don't think

it make

> sense!!!

>

> I don't buy his ideas since I know that he percieve my " jaw

surgery "

> as " a plastic surgery " : to him, they are the same!!!! But when

he says

> that the fees would be cheaper, I kinda tilt not because of " high

> demand " as he says (that is not true--the more demands, the higher

> price according to economic theory). Anyone has surgery

experience in

> Las Vegas or somewhere in Nevada? May I ask how much was your

> cost in total? Is it extreamly cheap than any where in America

because

> of " high demand " ???????? Also can anyone tell me should I

believe in

> what he say--what this guy is talking????? How should I deal with

him.

>

> Sandy

[Guest guest]

Brazil has some of the best comsetic surgeons in the world ... they

are doing a lot of work and they know what makes people look good...

i know of a cosmetic dentist in Canada that went to brazil just to

be taught on the this dentists capping techniques...

by the way, i've been to brazil and the women are the most beautiful

and sexy creatures i've seen.. and i've lived in Canada, US, Africa,

and Europe...

having said all this, i highly doubt that vegas has great cosmetic

surgeons.....

NOW A STRONG WORD OF CAUTION:

an ortho surgeon simply cuts your jaw and manipulates it... he does

not have that much control over the final looks of your face... he

can only position your jaw in the right place...

[Guest guest]

Hi Sandy.

The problem is that in nearly all cultures, beauty is measured as

what is functionally more survivable. Surveys of what makes a

womans body more beautiful gives the same results in primitive

villages as it does plastered on billboards across America. Women's

bodies are beautiful if they are better able to support birthing

babies. Wider hips with narrower waists (but not too narrow),

larger busts etc. Cross cultural! Though admittedly, there are

cultural differences with slight variations. The US has a tendency

to favor overlarge bustlines than primitive cultures, but basically,

beauty is viewed the same cross-culturally. It is fairly universal

because it is functional.

My dentist was quoting from studies that say the same thing about

jawline and bite patterns. What is more functional has long been

regarded as more beautiful. A good bite is more survivable, and we

are instinctively drawn to find good structure as beautiful. So any

surgery, cosmetic or functional that impacts the surface of our

bodies is going to have a cosmetic impact - positive or negative.

The jaw surgery is very close to the surface of our most viewable

body part - our face. Any surgery this close to the surface is

going to impact the way it looks, again, positive or negative.

People with sleep apnea who otherwise have normal bites and jaw

structure, may have surgery that moves their upper and lowers

forward to allieve their breathing problem. Their result will make

their faces flatter, which is not considered as " beautiful " . This

is an example of a potentially negative cosmetic effect for a

functional surgery. Does this mean they are doing " uncosmetic "

surgery? It is absurd!

Someone who has undergone cancer surgery may have whole parts of

their faces or bodies removed. Most insurance plans cover

reconstructive surgery in these cases, because they realize that the

cosmetic impact is horrific for these people. So they have a

cosmetic effect eventually that is more positive, hopefully. But

similarly disfiguring birth or developmental disfunctions, while

generally covered, still have the stigma of being " cosmetic " . Like

this is something bad or based on vanity. It is not.

Most plastic surgery procedures have a certain percentage of the

population that want the surgery to " perfect " their bodies/faces.

They have minor detractions that do not affect their function and

remain within normal limits of what is culturally acceptable as

normal. But they want to improve on this. I have no problem with

them wanting to do this, but it is cosmetic. And this is what

cosmetic really means. Surface changes that are only SURFACE

changes. And there are people of other cultures who do this too.

Think of the " Long Necks " who add gold rings around their necks,

piercing traditions (more popular here now as well - lol ). I am

sure you can think of lots of examples of this.

Other procedures that are frequently mentioned as cosmetic may

actually be functional. Tummy tucks for people who have lost

considerable weight (usually 100 pounds or more) are NOT cosmetic,

but relieve large pendulous skin/tissue flaps that do not go away

with exercise. These can be 20-30 pounds of tissue that hang from

their stomaches. Try imagining carrying a 20 pound sack of potatos

aroung your middle day and night, and you will see that this is not

cosmetic! It causes back, knee, hip problems and often have

uncontrollable rashes and infections in the folds of the skin. Most

insurance company's do cover a tummy tuck for these patients.

Breast reductions are another example. Arm lifts and thigh lifts

are also routinely covered for these people. They are functional

surgeries for them, though they also have a HUGE cosmetic effect.

But the functional part comes first. It is only because the

functional part is near the surface that it has a cosmetic effect.

The same is true of jaw surgery for malocclusions. The functional

comes first, but there is definately a cosmetic EFFECT. It is only

because it is near the surface that it is even a thought of being

cosmetic.

Also, I have been researching plastic surgery both here and abroad

for over 2 years, and Las Vegas, while having plastic surgeons and

even some good ones, is certainly no mecca for plastic surgery!!

They also have a good orthognathic program there, but this is a LONG

term proposal. Why would you want to commute to Las Vegas??

Is is wrong for people to want to have functional bites just because

they know that in so correcting a functional problem that they will

have a more " beautiful " profile? I don't think so. Why is your bf

insisting that this is cosmetic when you have informed him that it

is functional in your case? It sounds to me like he is having

issues with you doing this. This is not uncommon with any procedure

that will have a cosmetic effect - good or bad. Those close to us

are vulnerable to the ramifications of such important changes. But

I would suggest you not allowing his issues adversely affect your

GOOD DECISION making about what you need for your necessary

surgery. Do what is right for you. If he is right for you, it will

fall in place.

And, vack to a previous topic, here is another fameous person who

definately could have used some jaw advancement...Humphrey Bogart!

And I still think he was incredibly handsome!

Hang in there!

Fran

>

> My boyfriend and I were having a big argument regarding my jaw

> surgery. Fisrt, he strongly believes that the reason I want to do

surgery

> is purely cosmetic concerned. No matter of what, he always refer

to my

> surgery plan as " a cosmetic surgery. " I would admit that part of

it is for

> cosmetic purpose, but not all. Some of it are for my jaw function

and

> speech improvement. Eventhough it is for cosmetic, I don't think

it is a

> severe crime. I need some self-confidence to enter job market and

he

> should pay some respect on my decision (I am a 100% financially

> suporting myself).

>

> Second, when he learned that I am trying very hard to do, no

matter of

> what, he was convincing me that I should seek surgeons and get

> surgery in Las Vegas, Nevada. I am living in Illinois, and I don't

> understand why it has to be " Las Vegas? " When I asked him on what

> basis he pick that place and surgeons from that place, he kind of

> reasons that people overthere are doing lots of " cosmetic surgery "

and

> since they do " it " all the time, the surgeon there must be better

than

> anywhere (since we start to date, he kept saying that Las Vegas

has

> lots of gorgeous people becuase of " cosmetic surgery. " ) He also

says

> that since there is a high demand, supply (surgeon fees and

hospital

> fees) would be lower than in IL??????? I definitely don't think

it make

> sense!!!

>

> I don't buy his ideas since I know that he percieve my " jaw

surgery "

> as " a plastic surgery " : to him, they are the same!!!! But when

he says

> that the fees would be cheaper, I kinda tilt not because of " high

> demand " as he says (that is not true--the more demands, the higher

> price according to economic theory). Anyone has surgery

experience in

> Las Vegas or somewhere in Nevada? May I ask how much was your

> cost in total? Is it extreamly cheap than any where in America

because

> of " high demand " ???????? Also can anyone tell me should I

believe in

> what he say--what this guy is talking????? How should I deal with

him.

>

> Sandy

[Guest guest]

Wow Sandy.

Your boyfriend sounds like a huge jerk. First off, you are supporting

yourself 100% so what say does he have other than some tenuous opinion

that to correct what is technically a jaw deformity is vain and

cosmetic. Punch him in the jaw real hard and see how he likes TMJ.

Second, Las Vegas!? What is he thinking pushing you to go to a

surgeon in the middle of a stupid desert a thousand miles away from

where you live? Just because he has been conditioned by the media to

think that people there get a lot of cosmetic surgery? If you are

going to pay through the nose for airplane tickets every few weeks to

see a surgeon on the other side of the country, you might as well go

to Los Angeles where you have a bigger selection to choose from.

Third, you live in Illinois, presumably within driving distance of

Chicago. A big city with lots of orthognathic surgeons, some of which

are almost certainly some of the best in the country. Stay as local

as possible when choosing your surgeon and orthodontist.

And echoing a previous poster, if orthognathic surgery is so cosmetic

how come it's covered by insurance?

--

> >

> > My boyfriend and I were having a big argument regarding my jaw

> > surgery. Fisrt, he strongly believes that the reason I want to

do

> surgery

> > is purely cosmetic concerned. No matter of what, he always refer

> to my

> > surgery plan as " a cosmetic surgery. " I would admit that part of

> it is for

> > cosmetic purpose, but not all. Some of it are for my jaw

function

> and

> > speech improvement. Eventhough it is for cosmetic, I don't think

> it is a

> > severe crime. I need some self-confidence to enter job market

and

> he

> > should pay some respect on my decision (I am a 100% financially

> > suporting myself).

> >

> > Second, when he learned that I am trying very hard to do, no

> matter of

> > what, he was convincing me that I should seek surgeons and get

> > surgery in Las Vegas, Nevada. I am living in Illinois, and I

don't

> > understand why it has to be " Las Vegas? " When I asked him on what

> > basis he pick that place and surgeons from that place, he kind of

> > reasons that people overthere are doing lots of " cosmetic

surgery "

> and

> > since they do " it " all the time, the surgeon there must be better

> than

> > anywhere (since we start to date, he kept saying that Las Vegas

> has

> > lots of gorgeous people becuase of " cosmetic surgery. " ) He also

> says

> > that since there is a high demand, supply (surgeon fees and

> hospital

> > fees) would be lower than in IL??????? I definitely don't think

> it make

> > sense!!!

> >

> > I don't buy his ideas since I know that he percieve my " jaw

> surgery "

> > as " a plastic surgery " : to him, they are the same!!!! But when

> he says

> > that the fees would be cheaper, I kinda tilt not because of " high

> > demand " as he says (that is not true--the more demands, the

higher

> > price according to economic theory). Anyone has surgery

> experience in

> > Las Vegas or somewhere in Nevada? May I ask how much was your

> > cost in total? Is it extreamly cheap than any where in America

> because

> > of " high demand " ???????? Also can anyone tell me should I

> believe in

> > what he say--what this guy is talking????? How should I deal

with

> him.

> >

> > Sandy