Guest guest Posted October 21, 2001 Report Share Posted October 21, 2001 Hi Nick, While I think most of us agree that your comments are valid and very strong selling points... I still maintain my earlier post that different procedures are better for different patients. I know that we all see DS as the best, I do too.. but if there were no DS , I would have done the RNY.. and I would have done it on hopes that I didnt have any of the complications you mentioned.. that I would be one of the lucky ones (like a co-worker of mine who is doing well) and be able to become healthy that way. There are so many variables which could validate one type of procedure over the next.. you and I are just lucky.. ).. Love, Sue post op 9/11/01 Dr. Warden Ocean sps, MS > Hi Marcia - > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your statements are just a bit > unclear. > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for everyone. Is there anyone > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone who wants more weight to > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to have marginal ulcers? > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or anything with fiber) that > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe they'd actually prefer > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there who really wants to clog > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of endoscopic maintenance? > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who actually wants to dump? > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band slippage or erosion? > > Please let me know just who these people are because I can't picture anyone > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band . . . or any other > weight loss surgery. > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let me go out on a limb here. > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim of misinformation or a > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose significant weight and keep > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they haven't bothered to read > the results of the FDA trials. > > Best, > > Nick in Sage > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Anyone who would not be a candidate for the DS due to previous surgeries or other medical issues. I wish I could be more specific, but Im not a doctor, so I cant quote case studies.. but I can tell you that I have a friend who had a previous WLS and there are so many problems with that, DS is not available for her. This has been confirmed by two DS surgeons.. there must be others like her, unfortunately. > > > Hi Marcia - > > > > > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your statements are just a > > bit > > > unclear. > > > > > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for everyone. Is there > > anyone > > > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone who wants more > > weight to > > > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to have marginal > > ulcers? > > > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or anything with fiber) > > that > > > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe they'd actually > > prefer > > > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there who really wants > > to clog > > > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of endoscopic maintenance? > > > > > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who actually wants > > to dump? > > > > > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band slippage or > > erosion? > > > > > > Please let me know just who these people are because I can't picture > > anyone > > > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band . . . or any > > other > > > weight loss surgery. > > > > > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let me go out on a > > limb here. > > > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim of > > misinformation or a > > > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose significant weight > > and keep > > > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they haven't bothered > > to read > > > the results of the FDA trials. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 TOUCHE, Nick!! ;} > > > > > Hi Marcia - > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your statements are > > just a > > > > bit > > > > > unclear. > > > > > > > > > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for everyone. Is > > there > > > > anyone > > > > > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone who wants > > more > > > > weight to > > > > > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to have > > marginal > > > > ulcers? > > > > > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or anything with > > fiber) > > > > that > > > > > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe they'd actually > > > > prefer > > > > > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there who really > > wants > > > > to clog > > > > > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of endoscopic > > maintenance? > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who actually > > wants > > > > to dump? > > > > > > > > > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band slippage or > > > > erosion? > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know just who these people are because I can't > > picture > > > > anyone > > > > > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band . . . or > > any > > > > other > > > > > weight loss surgery. > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let me go out on > > a > > > > limb here. > > > > > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim of > > > > misinformation or a > > > > > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose significant > > weight > > > > and keep > > > > > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they haven't > > bothered > > > > to read > > > > > the results of the FDA trials. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Because when she had her original surgery done was 18 years ago, dear. DS wasnt available and so she's stuck with the old 'gastroplasty'.. my point in a nutshell. > > > > > Hi Marcia - > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your statements are > > just a > > > > bit > > > > > unclear. > > > > > > > > > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for everyone. Is > > there > > > > anyone > > > > > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone who wants > > more > > > > weight to > > > > > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to have > > marginal > > > > ulcers? > > > > > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or anything with > > fiber) > > > > that > > > > > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe they'd actually > > > > prefer > > > > > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there who really > > wants > > > > to clog > > > > > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of endoscopic > > maintenance? > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who actually > > wants > > > > to dump? > > > > > > > > > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band slippage or > > > > erosion? > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know just who these people are because I can't > > picture > > > > anyone > > > > > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band . . . or > > any > > > > other > > > > > weight loss surgery. > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let me go out on > > a > > > > limb here. > > > > > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim of > > > > misinformation or a > > > > > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose significant > > weight > > > > and keep > > > > > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they haven't > > bothered > > > > to read > > > > > the results of the FDA trials. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Of course its superior, but not for everyone.. Im trying to say that there are circumstances that would prevent a DS being done.. and there are Im sure other scenarios.... ( .. and that's what my response to the post was about... its not fair or right to 'assume' that DS is best for everyone.. cause its not.. even if its the best thing we have. > > > > > > > Hi Marcia - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your statements are > > > > just a > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > unclear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for everyone. > > Is > > > > there > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone who wants > > > > more > > > > > > weight to > > > > > > > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to have > > > > marginal > > > > > > ulcers? > > > > > > > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or anything > > with > > > > fiber) > > > > > > that > > > > > > > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe they'd > > actually > > > > > > prefer > > > > > > > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there who really > > > > wants > > > > > > to clog > > > > > > > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of endoscopic > > > > maintenance? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who actually > > > > wants > > > > > > to dump? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band slippage > > or > > > > > > erosion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know just who these people are because I can't > > > > picture > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band . . .. > > or > > > > any > > > > > > other > > > > > > > weight loss surgery. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let me go out > > on > > > > a > > > > > > limb here. > > > > > > > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim of > > > > > > misinformation or a > > > > > > > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose significant > > > > weight > > > > > > and keep > > > > > > > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they haven't > > > > bothered > > > > > > to read > > > > > > > the results of the FDA trials. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 I think I have backed it up, NIck.. I am not a doctor, so I dont know the medical lingo, terminology etc. What I hear you are saying is that anyone who is obese can and should have DS done.. but that is wrong.. if everyone could, then why all the preop testing and medical history research, etc? Not everyone who wants DS gets DS.. the problems could be (simply put) anatomical, psychological, or biological.. I dont know that there are 'stats' kept for turn down cases.. never heard of that being done.. sorry I couldnt quench your curiosity more than that. And when have you known me to be sweet or tolerant? lol Sue. > > > > > > > > > Hi Marcia - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your statements > > are > > > > > > just a > > > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > > > unclear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for > > everyone. > > > > Is > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone who > > wants > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > weight to > > > > > > > > > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to have > > > > > > marginal > > > > > > > > ulcers? > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or anything > > > > with > > > > > > fiber) > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe they'd > > > > actually > > > > > > > > prefer > > > > > > > > > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there who > > really > > > > > > wants > > > > > > > > to clog > > > > > > > > > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of endoscopic > > > > > > maintenance? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who > > actually > > > > > > wants > > > > > > > > to dump? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band > > slippage > > > > or > > > > > > > > erosion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know just who these people are because I > > can't > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band .. . > > . > > > > or > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > weight loss surgery. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let me go > > out > > > > on > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > limb here. > > > > > > > > > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim of > > > > > > > > misinformation or a > > > > > > > > > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose > > significant > > > > > > weight > > > > > > > > and keep > > > > > > > > > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they > > haven't > > > > > > bothered > > > > > > > > to read > > > > > > > > > the results of the FDA trials. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Soozy, According to your own statements you're not equipped (or even partially equipped; e.g. " don't know the medical lingo " ?!) to back up your statement, so until you are able to understand and cite some research/information, maybe you shouldn't try. There's enough " stuff " for people to wade through when trying to make a informed decision; let's not put any more possibly-well-intentioned but-unverifiable " information " out there. Dispensing with the condescending " LOL, " > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marcia - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to start a war, either, but your > statements > > > are > > > > > > > just a > > > > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > > > > unclear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You said that the DS isn't the right surgery for > > > everyone. > > > > > Is > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > > who doesn't want to eat normally? Is there anyone > who > > > wants > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > weight to > > > > > > > > > > come back post op? Is there anyone who prefers to > have > > > > > > > marginal > > > > > > > > > ulcers? > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone who never wants to eat meat (or > anything > > > > > with > > > > > > > fiber) > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > hasn't been run through a food processor - maybe > they'd > > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > prefer > > > > > > > > > > Gerber's baby foods? Is there someone out there > who > > > really > > > > > > > wants > > > > > > > > > to clog > > > > > > > > > > up their stoma and run on down for a bit of > endoscopic > > > > > > > maintenance? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there anyone without psychological pathology who > > > actually > > > > > > > wants > > > > > > > > > to dump? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does somebody out there actually want to have band > > > slippage > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > erosion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know just who these people are because > I > > > can't > > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > > who is well informed picking the RNY or Gastric Band > . . > > > . > > > > > or > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > weight loss surgery. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, will not be quite as wishy-washy. Let > me go > > > out > > > > > on > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > limb here. > > > > > > > > > > Anybody who gets the RNY (or other WLS) is a victim > of > > > > > > > > > misinformation or a > > > > > > > > > > lack of information. Anyone who hopes to lose > > > significant > > > > > > > weight > > > > > > > > > and keep > > > > > > > > > > it off with the AGB is in fantasyland - unless they > > > haven't > > > > > > > bothered > > > > > > > > > to read > > > > > > > > > > the results of the FDA trials. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 I can't quote scientific studies either, I know of at least one case where DS was the wrong choice. I remember mentioning it to you a while ago. Where a young woman was non-compliant with her supplements and protein intake. She thought she felt fine with out them. Unfortunately you don't show signs for some time with multiple vitamin deficiencies. She was also warned a short time before her death from massive systemic infection that she was probably protein deficient. I have also heard of other cases like hers, maybe not as drastic. Someone like this isn't a DS candidate. A RNY (not distal) would have been better for her. Also I know several people who have had RNY years ago, who have kept the weight off. One of them is just recently started regaining some weight. But, she is now 77 years old and has slowed down drastically because of arthritis. I know this isn't a scientific sample, but if there is one case that I know of, there must be many more. Rita Black <<What concerns me is that you have yet to answer the question as to just who it is for whom the DS is not the right surgery. You have nothing to back up your position, or at least you haven't provided it as yet. It is all very nice and sweet to be tolerant of everyone and accept their individual choices. However, if there is no scientific study, research or evidence to back it up, it should not be paraded about as fact.>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Rita, A small percentage of patients (maybee 2%) fail from non-compiance and either have the procedure reversed or occasionally die. On the other hand the RNY patients can suffer the same fate. Probably the lap-band is best for non-compliant patients, though maybe no surgery is best in that instance. Hull > I can't quote scientific studies either, I know of at least one case where > DS was the wrong choice. I remember mentioning it to you a while ago. > Where a young woman was non-compliant with her supplements and protein > intake. She thought she felt fine with out them. Unfortunately you don't > show signs for some time with multiple vitamin deficiencies. She was also > warned a short time before her death from massive systemic infection that > she was probably protein deficient. > I have also heard of other cases like hers, maybe not as drastic. > Someone like this isn't a DS candidate. A RNY (not distal) would have been > better for her. > > Also I know several people who have had RNY years ago, who have kept the > weight off. One of them is just recently started regaining some weight. > But, she is now 77 years old and has slowed down drastically because of > arthritis. > > I know this isn't a scientific sample, but if there is one case that I know > of, there must be many more. > > Rita Black > > <<What concerns me is that you have yet to answer the question as to just > who > it is for whom the DS is not the right surgery. You have nothing to back up > your position, or at least you haven't provided it as yet. > > It is all very nice and sweet to be tolerant of everyone and accept their > individual choices. However, if there is no scientific study, research or > evidence to back it up, it should not be paraded about as fact.>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 > I have to think that the lady's noncompliance with the DS would have been a problem with any procedure. The shrink just plain blew it with her.>> I know many of you have not been on the list long enough to know Aimee, but if that is who you are talking about, you are dead wrong. She was my friend and her tragic death was not caused by non- compliance. She struggled for months to be compliant. She tried desperately to get her protein intake to where it should be. She tried desperately to be compliant with her vitamins. She consulted with many doctors and nutritionists about her specific problems. She drank prescription protein supplements and was admitted to the hospital to get IV protein. She had several other serious medical complications prior to surgery, including a history of pancreatitis, guillane barre syndrome and lymphedema. She was not a psychiatric case. She was a very sick super MO young woman who saw the DS as a last desperate attempt to save her life. She died as a result of massive sepsis many many months after the surgery and several doctors (not associated with her surgeon) told her family that her death was not a result of the DS. She had dental work which could have introduced the infection. She was a very high risk patient to begin with and she and her surgeon knew it. Of course, her immune system may have been stronger if she did not have the protein deficiency. She may have been able to fight off the sepsis if she didn't have the DS. I don't think anyone will ever know for sure, but I think it is disrespectful and ignorant to brush her off as a shrink's bad call. Regards, Lori H (-120 lbs.) Lap BPD/DS 8/17/00 Drs. Pomp and Gagner Mt. Sinai, NYC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 You are entitled to your opinion.. and I respect it.. but that does not lessen my stance.. regardless if you believe me or not. Sue. POST OP 9/11/01 Dr. Warden Ocean SPS, MS > Sue - > > You are like trying to put your finger into a blob of mercury. First you > said that different people were better off with different surgeries. Next > you said that you were right because you knew someone who said that two > doctors told them that a prior procedure disqualified them from the DS. Now > you are saying that some people can't have the DS because of something that > might turn up in their pre-op testing. > > There was a 60's book on human behavior called " Games People Play. " One of > those games is " Yes, but . . . " This is a game at which you excel. > > Sue, do you believe that, assuming someone who is morbidly obese and is a > candidate for any kind of surgery, might find something other than the DS to > be a better surgery for them? > > Please support your answer with factual data. It doesn't have to be > medicalese, but it does have to represent what can be found in studies and > not merely in your mind. > > In case you haven't been through the pre-op testing, you will find that most > of it has to do with how they have to prepare to take care of predictable > situations that might occur during surgery. For example, a person with a > penchant for DVT will probably find the doctor installing a Greenfield > Filter. People with respiratory problems will likely have precautions taken > by a pulmonologist - and so on. > > Anyone with a problem uncovered at this point and is not able to have the DS > could not have other procedures, either, unless they were given an AGB or, > perhaps, one of those little balls they inflate in your stomach. > > Anyone who fails the psych test will likely not get the surgery, either. > That would be equally true, though, for any weight loss surgery. > > I could care less if you are sweet or tolerant. What I do care is that you > post accurate information and not present your opinion as fact. I have yet > to see you back up what you say with anything remotely resembling facts. > > Best - > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Lori, I'm not sure if it was your friend that I had heard about, although the circumstances sound the same. (I have brain freeze when trying to remember names) The person who posted about her death reported that the last time they saw her, that the doctor took one look at her and told her to make an appointment to see him. Also that the young lady said she was feeling just fine and didn't need to see the doctor. I don't know if it could have been foreseen from Aimee's previous conditions that she might have a problem with the malabsortive restrictions of the DS, but I'm sure they had a hand in her conditions. It is my understanding that DS is the most malabsortive procedure of WLS, therefore there are conditions where it would not be indicated for a patient. Outside of that, I think that the DS should be offered to more patients. There are those who shouldn't get any WLS. I met RNY'ers who suck on lollipops because that is the only thing that makes their stomach feel good. They would probably eat around their DS also. Rita Black <<I know many of you have not been on the list long enough to know Aimee, but if that is who you are talking about, you are dead wrong. She was my friend and her tragic death was not caused by non- compliance. She struggled for months to be compliant. She tried desperately to get her protein intake to where it should be. She tried desperately to be compliant with her vitamins. She consulted with many doctors and nutritionists about her specific problems. She drank prescription protein supplements and was admitted to the hospital to get IV protein. She had several other serious medical complications prior to surgery, including a history of pancreatitis, guillane barre syndrome and lymphedema. She was not a psychiatric case. She was a very sick super MO young woman who saw the DS as a last desperate attempt to save her life. She died as a result of massive sepsis many many months after the surgery and several doctors (not associated with her surgeon) told her family that her death was not a result of the DS. She had dental work which could have introduced the infection. She was a very high risk patient to begin with and she and her surgeon knew it. Of course, her immune system may have been stronger if she did not have the protein deficiency. She may have been able to fight off the sepsis if she didn't have the DS. I don't think anyone will ever know for sure, but I think it is disrespectful and ignorant to brush her off as a shrink's bad call. Regards, Lori H (-120 lbs.)>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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