Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 Hello, Its morning so I am a bit slow...I am Roman Catholic....Why do you want to discuss it with your clergyman? Asking out of curiosity.... Lisbeth mkf5t@... wrote: Are there any of you out there who is an ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? Did you discuss the idea of surgery with your priest? Did you think about and try to find answers to religious questions as they directly relate to Orthodoxy and WLS? For those of you who aren't Eastern Orthodox, I would also love to hear from you, particularly if your religion is hierarchical and conservative: Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Jews, etc. I wish I could find an Orthodox surgeon with whom to discuss this, but I haven't been able to find any. I thought that Elariny could be an Arab Orthodox Christian, but he was on a Muslim business list. Thanks, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 Hi, Lisbeth. Personally, I try not to make life and death decisions without the support of my priest, since he is my theological touchstone. Almost always, my priest is able to provide me with welcome words of wisdom on any subject, and when he can't, he helps me find someone who can. This really helps someone like me who is brash, impulsive, and (believe it or not!) opinionated to the point that it often hinders my judgment. Aside from these reasons, I also want someone more educated than I in my faith to help me address the morality of what I am about to do. I guess that for WLS to be " morally OK, " one has to start with the premise that morbid obesity truly is a disease. I'm not 100% convinced of this. Yes, obesity MUST have genetic ties, but dieting, behavior, and other environmental factors also contribute to this " disease. " I also have problems with the connotation of the word " disease, " and the idea conveyed that one cannot help oneself in matters of " disease. " So, then. Here are my questions: 1. Does God approve of my decision to have WLS? 2. Is it a further and unnatural violation of HIS temple? Religiously speaking, this body does not really belong to me. 3. What about the Orthodox Church's dictates about fasting (no animal products or alcohol) on Wednesdays and Fridays and lengthy periods throughout the year, especially Lent? 4. WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT ABUSE OF FOOD, GLUTTONY, IS A SIN, AND ONE OF THE PASSIONS WE MUST FIGHT AGAINST (and there are so many others!). 5. Is morbid obesity really a disease or is some (or a lot!) of the condition indicative of our unwillingness to fight temptations? BTW, Sue Widemark (as a Roman Catholic) also hints at some of this stuff on her website. Are there any of you out there who is an ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? > Did you discuss the idea of surgery with your priest? Did you think > about and try to find answers to religious questions as they directly > relate to Orthodoxy and WLS? > > For those of you who aren't Eastern Orthodox, I would also love to > hear from you, particularly if your religion is hierarchical and > conservative: Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Jews, etc. > > I wish I could find an Orthodox surgeon with whom to discuss this, > but I haven't been able to find any. I thought that Elariny could be > an Arab Orthodox Christian, but he was on a Muslim business list. > > Thanks, > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 Obesity a disease? I think that the answer to that question is still out there. I do know that there are " fat " genes. I do know that some other " diseases " predispose a person to obesity (i.e. Polycystic Ovary Syndrome). For other people, what is seen as " obesity " in this time and age.... may in fact be a genetic predisposition which helps ensure the " survival of the species " in times of great physical distress throughout the world; whether from famine, ice age, etc. What I do know is... I have never CHOSEN to be fat. Oh, yes, I eat too much; I indulge in foods that many thinner people do not. On the other hand, I know many people who eat far more than I do; stuff themselves with everything sugary they can get their hands on... and have NO weight problem. In a person who has Type II diabetes, sugar levels are directly related to what a person puts in their mouth. Should we deny the diabetic insulin or oral medication because they " chose " to eat a sugar cookie? Jumping off cliffs with a little tiny apparatus to make one " sail through the air " appears to me to be a completely stupid choice. So, when that person has an accident which causes a paraplegia, do we allow them to die instead of offering medical assistance? Many people live high stress lives which create massive health risks. Do we deny that " type A " personality person high blood pressure medication, heart bypass surgery, etc. (especially if they choose to remain as CEO of their company)? ...........Just thinking..........Elle Re: God > 1. Does God approve of my decision to have WLS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 , you wrote: > 4. WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT ABUSE OF FOOD, GLUTTONY, IS A SIN, AND > ONE OF THE PASSIONS WE MUST FIGHT AGAINST (and there are so many > others!). Is there a religious assumption that OBESITY=GLUTTONY? Jean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 > > BTW, Sue Widemark (as a Roman Catholic) also hints at some of this > stuff on her website. Sue Widemark is a demon, a liar, she is evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 Hey , (excellent thread btw), I'm not sure what I think. Our philosophical paths have now diverged quite dramatically since I don't see " sin as a disease of the human condition " . Or maybe I do. Or maybe I misunderstand that statement. Before I go off on some flighty righteous tangent, I actually should ask " what does that mean " ? And what does all this have to do with morbid obesity and WLS? A whole lot, imho. I think it goes to the heart of how we do or don't respect ourselves and why, how that does or doesn't impact our weight and why, how we do or don't take responsibility for having gotten/found ourselves in this MO-predicament in the first place and why we make the decisions we make about WLS based on all that stuff. But I think I still need to understand the phrase " sin is a disease of the human condition " before I can intelligently (har har) respond. (I've been baptised/confirmed into a number of different faiths, it was something I liked to do when I was little, going from church to church looking for the best music, lol, but I never really absorbed much of the religious stuff.) Jean. Re: God > Hey, Jean. > > See my response to Joe, who asked the same question (kind of). Let > me know what you think. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 By Anglican do you also include Episcopalian? We are part of the worldwide Anglican community but I wouldn't characterize the Episcopal Church as " conservative " . Individual conscience is given high priority and decisions about health care would be left up to the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 Very interesting, . Yes, I would also include Episcopalians (they are simply Anglicans in America, to my understanding). OK--I'm going to tread on dangerous ground here by qualifying " conservative. " Please, don't anyone send me any hate mail! The Anglican Church, like the Roman Catholic Church, is SUPPOSED to be very conservative. They both are hierarchical, have formal liturgies, etc. If you want me to be even more specific, we'll have to continue privately, because I'm sure that I'll offend a great many people if I start criticizing either church for liberalizing their practices, which they have certainly done. Churches at large have often played a part in health care decisions. Think about abortion, organ donation, cosmetic surgery, euthanasia, etc. Since WLS DOES have some component of electivity to it, like these other procedures, it makes sense to me that moral questions about it should be answered. I'm kind of thinking out loud here, and hope I haven't been too vague in my attempt to respond to you. Best, > By Anglican do you also include Episcopalian? We are part of the > worldwide Anglican community but I wouldn't characterize the Episcopal > Church as " conservative " . Individual conscience is given high priority > and decisions about health care would be left up to the individual. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2001 Report Share Posted October 30, 2001 FYI, There is a Christian WLS eGroup. In fact, there are three on Yahoo (search for " wls christian " ), but this one has the most members and was formed relatively recently. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/A-Christian-wls-support Good luck with your research, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 I hope this does not become a discussion about the religion of surgeons. I don't think their religion is any of our business as I don't think the religion of a patient is the business of the surgeon. And I don't want to see that information posted to the lists. The only time the religion of a patient is important to their doctor or othr healthcare provider is when they have beliefs that impact how care is to be given. I do feel rather strongly about avoiding religious discussions on the list. So expect my protests should that start to happen. , Seattle > Are there any of you out there who is an ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? > Did you discuss the idea of surgery with your priest? Did you think > about and try to find answers to religious questions as they directly > relate to Orthodoxy and WLS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 Hi - Don't forget, this is a support list. Religion is important in the lives of many people and we should respect their interest in discussing it's impact upon the decisions that they make regarding the subject matter of this list. Nobody says you have to read those posts or respond to them, only that you respect them. Best- Nick in Sage Re: God > I hope this does not become a discussion about the religion of > surgeons. I don't think their religion is any of our business as I > don't think the religion of a patient is the business of the surgeon. > And I don't want to see that information posted to the lists. > > The only time the religion of a patient is important to their doctor > or othr healthcare provider is when they have beliefs that impact how > care is to be given. > > I do feel rather strongly about avoiding religious discussions on the > list. So expect my protests should that start to happen. > > , Seattle > > > > > Are there any of you out there who is an ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? > > Did you discuss the idea of surgery with your priest? Did you > think > > about and try to find answers to religious questions as they > directly > > relate to Orthodoxy and WLS? > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 > I do feel rather strongly about avoiding religious discussions on the > list. So expect my protests should that start to happen. > > , Seattle Why am I not surprised? , what is it about you that makes you think you can or should control what others wish to discuss on a public list? You want to ban religious discussion from a SUPPORT list? This is even more inane than your last complaint. Joe in Vermont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 I usually don't want to discuss religion, either, because it is a topic that can cause many problems. So, I don't want to make anyone upset by saying this. But, I have been taught that God works THRU doctors, dentists, vets, and everyone. I also think that God answers prayer, so if you prayed to find an answer to your weight problem and you " just happened " to learn about wls and " just happened " to learn about DS on top of that, I would say, God has given you guidance to find this answer, in answer to your prayers. Would you question whether or not you should have an aching tooth filled? Would you think it was your " gluttenous " behavior of eating sweets that caused your toothache, so you should just suffer with it? Would you question whether or not you should be vaccinated, or have your children vaccinated? Do you question all scientific achievements? Can you see that God guides all advances, even those that are scientific? Well, I can see that God does answer prayer, gives guidance, and works through those who make scientific advances. So, in my mind, there was never any question about whether or not this surgery would upset God. I think it is a gift from God and I am grateful for His guidance in allowing me to learn about it. And his gift of the internet which has really helped me to learn so much more about wls and DS in particular, that I would not otherwise know. Carole Broderick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 > Hi, Lisbeth. > > Personally, I try not to make life and death decisions without the > support of my priest, since he is my theological touchstone. > > So, then. Here are my questions: Hi , > 3. What about the Orthodox Church's dictates about fasting (no > animal products or alcohol) on Wednesdays and Fridays and lengthy > periods throughout the year, especially Lent? While I don't feel qualified to answer your questions about your religious beliefs, I can say with confidence that there are alternatives to animal products for protein. Soy is a great alternative and comes in many forms (tofu, miso, edemame, milk, etc.) and nuts of all kinds also have high protein levels. Of course, you wouldn't want to eat too many nuts at one time but mix them with tofu and some vegetables in a stir fry and you're getting a great high protein meal. Tracey in San Diego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 I haven't yet discussed it w/the Rabbi, but I don't anticipate that he'll have anything but supportive things to say. There's nothing in Judiasm that prohibits *anything* that saves a life. This surgery will almost certainly save mine. ~alyssa, your friendly neighborhood Jew.. God > Are there any of you out there who is an ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? > Did you discuss the idea of surgery with your priest? Did you think > about and try to find answers to religious questions as they directly > relate to Orthodoxy and WLS? > > For those of you who aren't Eastern Orthodox, I would also love to > hear from you, particularly if your religion is hierarchical and > conservative: Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Jews, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 At 11:19 PM -0800 10/31/01, Alyssa wrote: >I haven't yet discussed it w/the Rabbi, but I don't anticipate that he'll >have anything but supportive things to say. There's nothing in Judiasm that >prohibits *anything* that saves a life. This surgery will almost certainly >save mine. Speaking of the Rabbi: RABBI'S BUSINESS ADVICE A man has been in business for many, many years, and the business is going down the drain. He is seriously contemplating suicide, and he doesn't know what to do. He goes to the Rabbi to seek his advice. He tells the Rabbi about all of his problems in the business and asks the Rabbi what he should do. The Rabbi says, " Take a beach chair and a Bible and put them in your car and drive down to the edge of the ocean. Go to the water's edge. Take the beach chair out of the car, sit on it, and take the Bible out and open it up. The wind will riffle the pages for a while, and eventually the Bible will stay open at a particular page. Read the first words your eyes fall on and they will tell you what to do. " The man does as he is told. He places a beach chair and a Bible in his car and drives down to the beach. He sits on the chair at the water's edge and opens the bible. The wind riffles the pages of the Bible and then stops at a particular page. He looks down at the Bible, and his eyes fall on words which tell him what he has to do. Three months later, the man and his family come back to see the Rabbi. The man is wearing a $1,000 Italian suit, the wife is all decked out with a full-length mink coat, and the child is dressed in beautiful silk. The man hands the Rabbi a thick envelope full of money and tells him that he wants to donate this money to the synagogue in order to thank the Rabbi for his wonderful advice. The Rabbi is delighted. He recognizes the man and asks him what words in the Bible brought this good fortune to him. The man replies: " Chapter 11 " . " The Lord works in mysterious ways . . . " --Steve -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2001 Report Share Posted November 1, 2001 You make an assumption. It is a false assumption. However, feel free to insult me. This is precisely what happens to even more extremes when folks start discussing their religion as a focus on lists. Hopefully if you have a large number of insults in store, they are burning a hole in your brain, and are in need of a target, please send them my way. I am easily amused. , Seattle > > > I do feel rather strongly about avoiding religious discussions on > the > > list. So expect my protests should that start to happen. > > > > , Seattle > > > Why am I not surprised? > > , what is it about you that makes you think you can or should > control what others wish to discuss on a public list? You want to > ban religious discussion from a SUPPORT list? This is even more > inane than your last complaint. > > Joe in Vermont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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