Re: Let's fight about Widemark!

October 29, 2001

Good grief, Virginia, you really miss the boat regarding Sue. If what you

want is the negative, you're getting it there. The only problem is that she

has no idea what she's talking about. She knows a few things which she

massages conveniently into the point that she wants to make. Just because

she says that there is information that proves her point doesn't mean that

it is there. In fact, it is not.

As far as longitudinal studies are concerned, Hess's studies go back nearly

15 years now.

As far as risks are concerned, your hypothetical 300 lb. paragon of health

is a myth. By the time I hit 300 lbs., I had comorbidities. As my weight

blossomed from there, they multiplied in both intensity and number. Now I

am 60 and am very happy that I had this surgery for it is the only thing

that could provide me with QOL in the coming years.

If you read all of Sue's drivel, you will discover that she lost only a few

pounds which who knows how long she will keep off. She's far from svelte.

She knows nothing about what it means to diet, gain, diet, gain more, diet,

gain even more, etc. If she does know, she's lying about it.

If you are waiting for a gold leafed guarantee of 50 years of perfect

health, don't bother reading the DS groups or any other WLS info because

that isn't there. If you want to know how your life span will be affected,

14+ years is about as far as you can go. Are there any medical procedures

that have been developed over that time period for which you can find such a

guarantee? Of course not. Does that mean that you would refuse them? If

so, forget any WLS along with them.

If you push Sue you will find that she really can't back up most of what she

says. She falls back on citing her recollection of what someone told her,

probably her relative who is a medical prodigy - who also is obviously

ignorant about WLS. If she actually spouts something that sounds factual,

if you go back to the source, you will find that she has massaged what was

actually said into something that no longer represents what the author

actually meant.

Your wait is over.

Nick in Sage

Let's fight about Widemark!

> OK! As promised, I'm ready for battle! I'm particularly hoping for

> an attack from Nick's corner, since he seems to have some opinions

> about Sue.

>

> After I read all the good stuff about WLS, I tried very hard to find

> negative information about it, too, especially on the internet.

> Naturally, I ran into Sue Widemark's pages. Here is the one thing

> that she has said that CONTINUES TO HAUNT ME! And, unfortunately, I

> don't think it's an irrational or unjustified fear on my part. That

> is to say, I think she's right in this instance. Here goes, in my

> quicky paraphrase:

>

> There is no REALLY-long-term study that validates the safety of WLS

> over the course of many, many years. There can't be, since it's so

> new, especially the D/S. Yes, we can compare it to similar surgeries

> (ulcer stuff?) of long ago, but those comparisons aren't closely

> related enough to provide REAL information.

>

> The best counterargument to this is usually as follows: " I was so

> close to death anyway, or at least I wouldn't have lived as long as I

> could have being so heavy. So the risk of surgery is less than the

> risk of being obese. Sue says " bull " to this, and in a way, she's

> right. Now, I'm not talking about the 700 pound person who is about

> to have a heart attack any second and is not able to move out of

> bed. But what about the young, 300 pounder who is still very active

> and healthy in most regards? Yeah, that person's health might

> decline over the years, but it might just as well decline in the long

> term after living with WLS after another 30-40 years.

>

> HOW WILL OUR LIFE SPAN BE AFFECTED BY WLS??????????????????????????

> HOW COME NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT THIS??????????????????????????????

>

> Waiting,

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

October 29, 2001

In a message dated 10/29/2001 5:45:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,

mkf5t@... writes:

<< But what about the young, 300 pounder who is still very active

and healthy in most regards? Yeah, that person's health might

decline over the years, but it might just as well decline in the long

term after living with WLS after another 30-40 years.

HOW WILL OUR LIFE SPAN BE AFFECTED BY WLS??????????????????????????

HOW COME NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT THIS?????????????????????????????? >>

,

I am 30 years old and had surgery in April. I have always been fairly active

and played sports growing up. Over the past couple of years my physically

mobility has (had) declined rapidly. I was unable to walk without huffing and

puffing, unable to tie my shoes, it was getting more and more difficult to

use the bathroom (if you know what I mean!) I was scouting out the chairs

every time I went out in public to make sure I could fit in them. I was not

going to the movies because I could not fit in the seats. I could not take a

bath. I was embarassed for my daughter to have such a humongus mother so I

would not volunteer at her school.

As far as life expectancy..... Maybe I will only live another 10 years, maybe

I will be hit by a bus tomorrow or a drunk driver... One certainty is...

without surgery I may have lost the weight only to put on twice as much, my

health would have most definitely declined over the years and I would have

had a very poor quality of life. At least If I die from the surgery or get

hit by a bus they won't have to drag me out of my house with a crane or bury

my big butt in a piano case, and I will have been able to do things like a

normal person. No one ever knows when their day will come whether it be from

surgery (any type), health related issues such as cancer, or accidental

death. I know one thing, I am going out with a fight for my happiness whether

I live to be 35 or 100 years old!

Kim

Dr. Anthone USC

DGB/DS 4/18/01

-131 lbs and counting

October 30, 2001

I knew I could count on you, Nick.

>Just because she says that there is information that proves her

>point doesn't mean that it is there. In fact, it is not.

Yes, this is true. She DOES lack credible sources.

>As far as longitudinal studies are concerned, Hess's studies go

>back nearly 15 years now.

Yes, but 15 years is such a short time. If I were 60, I would feel

satisfied with a 15-year study, but I'm 31, and I'm going to have to

live with this surgery for another 40+ years if I'm so blessed.

>As far as risks are concerned, your hypothetical 300 lb. paragon of

>health is a myth.

I'm not so sure about that. I remember (and I'm sure you've heard

about) a " 60 Minutes " type news story that gave several examples (one

man in particular) of people who were close to that weight but were

running in marathons. Their doctors' claims were that you CAN be fat

AND healthy. Moreover, their weight had not changed in many years.

>Now I am 60 and am very happy that I had this surgery for it is the

>only thing that could provide me with QOL in the coming years.

OK, but would have QOL at the POSSIBLE expense of life itself??

>If you read all of Sue's drivel, you will discover that she lost

>only a few pounds which who knows how long she will keep off. She's

>far from svelte.

Right--last I saw, she's 220ish but she a happy and presumable

healthy bicycler.

>If you are waiting for a gold leafed guarantee of 50 years of perfect

>health, don't bother reading the DS groups or any other WLS info

>because that isn't there. If you want to know how your life span

>will be affected, 14+ years is about as far as you can go.

No, but I'd like to feel confident that I could almost certainly see

another 40 or so years of life. If I had the choice of 50 more years

of life with obesity or 25 more years of life without obesity, I'd

choose the former. What about you?

>Are there any medical procedures that have been developed over that

>time period for which you can find such a guarantee?

This is very helpful. I guess there are not. Procedures are always

being modified and " improved. "

>She falls back on citing her recollection of what someone told her,

>probably her relative who is a medical prodigy - who also is

>obviously ignorant about WLS.

I believe that most of her ignorance is ignorance about the RNY; I

don't think that she even bothers to try to spread (mis)information

about the D/S, presumably because she knows nothing about it. And

not all of what she spouts is ignorance. For instance, she smartly

takes issue with the fact that, in interviews, Wittgrove comes close

to lying (doesn't want to scare away customers?) about the fact that

the RNY IS a malabsorptive procedure and IS a gastric bypass.

Widemark says she's tired of hearing people who are not informed

enough about their own surgeries and about people who lie or gloss

over the negatives of WLS.

>Your wait is over.

Ahhhhh, I love drama!

>Nick in Sage

What does the " in Sage " part of your signature mean?

BTW, since as of late I've been very unhappy with the way things work

here in Virginia, it would be best not to associate me with my newly

(and temporarily?) adopted state of VA. Think of me as " ,

formerly of Los Angeles " or " , soon to be moving north. " ;}

You can call me almost anything, but don't call me Virginia!!!

Yours,

in Limbo

October 30, 2001

, you wrote:

> But what about the young, 300 pounder who is still very active

> and healthy in most regards?

If you are referring to a very very very large man such as a

professional football player, I agree with a previous respondent that

you're asking about a mythical being. I'm a 300 pounder and if not

for my weight would be one of your active healthy people, but,

because of my weight, I have nearly destroyed my knees and my back, I

have been placing frighteningly unreasonable demands on my

respiratory system, digestive system and nervous system as I search

desperately for chairs, being unable to stand for more than a minute

or so. I live in constant fear of a heart attack. I now live in

constant fear of expiring from exertion since I seem to have

developed asthma which gets worse and worse with each day that goes

by and each stairway I descend... do I need to go on?

If you want to have a reasonable discussion, a sound premise might be

a nice place to start. If you want to talk about football players,

that's a whole other topic. Judging by your subject line, it sounds

like you are hoping for a lively discussion. I love lively

discussions but unfortunately I won't be able to contribute much

never having played football.

Jean.

October 30, 2001

At 12:00 PM +0000 10/30/01, mkf5t@... wrote:

>...I'd like to feel confident that I could almost certainly see

>another 40 or so years of life. If I had the choice of 50 more years

>of life with obesity or 25 more years of life without obesity, I'd

>choose the former. What about you?

>

,

My DW said that she would not have acquiesced to my DS had I been

only in my 40's rather than in my 60's, for exactly the reasons you

cite. I am not sure how I would have decided, either, had I been

much younger. Life is a crap shoot in any event. You pays your

money, and you takes your chances. Only you can make those decisions

for yourself.

Who knows, but the time you are in your 50's, there may be a magic

pill that will make you thin-and we can all win the lottery and get

rich. Just remember that deciding not to have WLS is also a decision

with its own set of consequences. And, the consequences WILL become

painfully evident in your 50's and 60's.

Good luck in your life,

Steve

--

October 30, 2001

Steve,

This is perfect:

>My DW said that she would not have acquiesced to my DS had I been

>only in my 40's rather than in my 60's, for exactly the reasons you

>cite. I am not sure how I would have decided, either,

Will you push this a little further? What WOULD you have done, and

would your wife have eventually gotten on board, do you think?

>Just remember that deciding not to have WLS is also a decision

>with its own set of consequences. And, the consequences WILL

>become painfully evident in your 50's and 60's.

Oh, yes. Choosing to do nothing is a choice in and of itself. More

dieting for me seems to be the same as choosing to do nothing. I

think I'm past the fear of dying on the table because I have so much

confidence in Dr. Gagner's abilities. I am not, however, past the

fear of a shortened life span. This fear is not just selfish; I

worry about my children and my most-wonderful-and-nearly-perfect

husband. I wish that God would let me know what is the right thing

to do.

October 30, 2001

I'm 28 yrs old and 327lbs, so I feel like I'm 65 yrs old! Last year,

I could say I was around 297lbs and fat, but healthy. This year, my

knees and ankles hurt so much sometimes it hurts to walk just to the

bathroom, I have sleep apnea, I get out of breath just walking to the

mailbox (no hill), I can't do any of the active things I used to

enjoy. If I was fat but healthy & happy, maybe I wouldn't be having

this surgery, but being MO I have a greater risk for cancer, diabetes

and a plethora of other problems. The opportunity to improve my

quality of life is one I can't give up. It's true I could die in

surgery or have complications, but then I could also die in a car

accident tomorrow or have a massive heart attack (*knock on wood*). I

need to be proactive in trying to improve my health and if that means

surgery, then so be it!

Anita

Pre-op in Denver

Surgery Date 11/08/01

Dr Keshishian

Hoping to feel 28 yrs old

> >...I'd like to feel confident that I could almost certainly see

> >another 40 or so years of life. If I had the choice of 50 more

years of life with obesity or 25 more years of life without obesity,

I'd choose the former. What about you?

> >

> ,

>

> My DW said that she would not have acquiesced to my DS had I been

> only in my 40's rather than in my 60's, for exactly the reasons you

> cite. I am not sure how I would have decided, either, had I been

> much younger. Life is a crap shoot in any event. You pays your

> money, and you takes your chances. Only you can make those

decisions for yourself.

>

> Who knows, but the time you are in your 50's, there may be a magic

> pill that will make you thin-and we can all win the lottery and get

> rich. Just remember that deciding not to have WLS is also a

decision with its own set of consequences. And, the consequences

WILL become painfully evident in your 50's and 60's.

>

> Good luck in your life,

>

> Steve

> --

October 30, 2001

At 12:51 PM +0000 10/30/01, mkf5t@... wrote:

>Steve,

>

>This is perfect:

>

>>My DW said that she would not have acquiesced to my DS had I been

>>only in my 40's rather than in my 60's, for exactly the reasons you

>>cite. I am not sure how I would have decided, either,

>

>Will you push this a little further? What WOULD you have done, and

>would your wife have eventually gotten on board, do you think?

Had I been in the same downhill spiral at age 40 that I was at age

60, I would most likely have made the same choice. It probably would

have taken longer to persuade my DW, though. Also, I might have

decided to try OptiFast first, but, heck, I already did that at age

45, and lost 110 pounds before gaining back 160 pounds. " Been there;

done that. "

>

>>Just remember that deciding not to have WLS is also a decision

>>with its own set of consequences. And, the consequences WILL

> >become painfully evident in your 50's and 60's.

>

>... I am not, however, past the

>fear of a shortened life span. This fear is not just selfish; I

>worry about my children and my most-wonderful-and-nearly-perfect

>husband.

Well, you are probably safe for 20 more good years if you have WLS.

How many if you don't?

You might also wish to check with Harvey J. Sugarman M.D. (Medical

College of Virginia,

Richmond, VA 23298-0519) before you leave the Commonwealth. He is

deep into his own questioning of bariatric surgery and struggling

with issues like malabsorption, and he is highly regarded for his

wisdom.

In his Mayo Clinic Proceedings, July 2000, Vol.75, No.7, 669-672 Editorial

" The Epidemic of Severe Obesity: The Value of Surgical Treatment "

Sugarman encourages insurance companies to look beyond the bottom

line and pay for WLS, but,

" We agree with the authors that the most effective operation for this

disease is gastric bypass [which, from context means RnY--SG] . . . "

Then he refers to a 1998 article by Kellum, De and Sugarman,

" The surgical treatment of morbid obesity " Curr Prob Surg. 1998; 35:

791-858 as a " useful review of the different operative procedures and

he overall efficacy of obesity surgery. "

And then he drops the bomb: " We are concerned with the malabsorptive

procedures, including the partial biliopancreatic bypass and the

duodenal switch operations, which may be associated with steatorrhea

[frothy, floating and stinky poops with greater than normal amounts

of fat--SG], fat-soluble vitamin deficiencies,and osteoporosis from

calcium and vitamin D deficiency. "

>I wish that God would let me know what is the right thing to do.

At 1:00 PM +0000 10/30/01, mkf5t@... wrote:

>Are there any of you out there who is an ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN?

>Did you discuss the idea of surgery with your priest? Did you think

>about and try to find answers to religious questions as they directly

>relate to Orthodoxy and WLS?

>

>For those of you who aren't Eastern Orthodox, I would also love to

>hear from you, particularly if your religion is hierarchical and

>conservative: Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Jews, etc.

>

>I wish I could find an Orthodox surgeon with whom to discuss this,

>but I haven't been able to find any. I thought that Elariny could be

>an Arab Orthodox Christian, but he was on a Muslim business list.

Can't help you there; I am , as the [not-so-]Reverend Fallwell calls

us, a dreaded " secular humanist. " Actually, an Ethical Culturalist.

I do believe in God, but the God that I believe in leaves those

decisions as an " exercise for the student. "

Still, talking things over with the clergy of your choice is a good

idea. And, though you found Dr. Elariny on a Moslem business list

(how? where?), he is a very modern kind of young man (with a deep

side as well as an infectious smile), and, I believe, quite open to

faith-based discussions. Remember, Moslems can also be orthodox, and

they hold deep beliefs in God.

--Steve

--

October 30, 2001

Hi again.

>Had I been in the same downhill spiral at age 40 that I was at age

>60, I would most likely have made the same choice. It probably

>would have taken longer to persuade my DW, though. Also, I might

>have decided to try OptiFast first, but, heck, I already did that at

>age 45, and lost 110 pounds before gaining back 160 pounds. " Been

>there; done that. "

Yes, " been there; done that, " too. Optifast bites! Phen/Fen left me

with mild mitral valve regurgitation. Other diets have ruined me as

well.

>Well, you are probably safe for 20 more good years if you have WLS.

>How many if you don't?

If I hover around the 300 pound mark, I could be safe for another 40+

years. I suppose that's a BIG " IF. " And I do so want to run--faster

than my children.

>You might also wish to check with Harvey J. Sugarman M.D. (Medical

>College of Virginia,Richmond, VA 23298-0519) before you leave the

>Commonwealth. He is deep into his own questioning of bariatric

>surgery and struggling with issues like malabsorption, and he is

>highly regarded for his wisdom.

You do know that he's doing a blind study (correct terminology?)with

the D/S and the RNY? Marceau is helping him here in Virginia.

Problem is, the patient doesn't know what kind of surgery he'll be

getting until it's done! Can you imagine not caring which one

happens?!

>And then he drops the bomb: " We are concerned with the malabsorptive

>procedures, including the partial biliopancreatic bypass and the

>duodenal switch operations, which may be associated with steatorrhea

>[frothy, floating and stinky poops with greater than normal amounts

>of fat--SG], fat-soluble vitamin deficiencies,and osteoporosis from

>calcium and vitamin D deficiency. "

WHAT!? The RNY is also a malabsorptive procedure, and although he

doesn't exclude it as such, he makes it sound like it doesn't any

similar nutritional dangers. Ya gotta do the vitamin thing for the

rest of your life with either surgery, right? So why not get

the " better " surgery and take a few extra " special " vitamins?

Also, why is steatorrehea a danger in and of itself? That is, why

separate it grammatically from the remaining items in the list or why

mention it at all?

>Can't help you there; I am, as the [not-so-]Reverend Fallwell calls

>us, a dreaded " secular humanist. "

According to Falwell, then, aren't you somewhat responsible for the

terrorist acts? ;}

>Still, talking things over with the clergy of your choice is a good

>idea. And, though you found Dr. Elariny on a Moslem business list

>(how? where?)

Typed in his first and last name in quotes (exact phrase) in Google.

Several pages later, a Muslim businesses page came up with his name

on it.

>Remember, Moslems can also be orthodox, and they hold deep beliefs

>in God.

Muslims cannot be Eastern Orthodox Christians (oxymoron), and they do

not hold deep beliefs in God in terms of Trinitarian formulas.

According to my code, therefore, they are infidels, just as we

Christians are to Muslims (or should be!).

Additionally, and this is purely as an aside on a different note

entirely, I've read that Elariny has/had pushed patients to accept

only the gastrectomy part of the D/S to see how they did with that

first before later (possibly) doing the switch part. IF this is

true, the man sounds like bad news to me.

October 30, 2001

Who is Sue Widemark and what is her website?

Thanks,

dee

__________________________________________________

October 30, 2001

Hey Anita, I am 28 also! I know how you feel before I had surgery I felt 28

going on 88 since surgery the difference is remarkable every day....Everyday I

feel healthier, faster and I feel like I really have unlimited potential that is

something I have not felt in a long time! Congratulations on your surgery

date!!!

Lisbeth

Anita wrote: I'm 28 yrs old and 327lbs, so I feel

like I'm 65 yrs old! Last year,