Re: stone blocking bile duct

April 18, 2010

From what I've experienced, from my research, and from discussions with my

gastroenterologist on biliary tree issues, my opinion is:

No when it comes to gallstones. SCD works miracles, but can't do a whole lot

for removing gallstones. Depending on the cause of the gallstone and test

results, an ERCP might be required (if the specialist is skilled in extracting

gallstones through this procedure) or surgical intervention might be required if

the gallbladder itself is diseased. A lot depends on how many stones are

present, where the blockage is, other medical conditions.

When it comes to general gallbladder problems, SCD can help to some degree,

especially if you make a selection of permitted foods that are low in fat and

for some people also low in fiber. Less demand on the gallbladder and liver.

However, sometimes there needs to be medical intervention to alleviate the

specific problem, and after that SCD can help maintain the functionality of the

biliary tree.

Just my two cents. If you are dealing with this issue, I suggest getting

opinions from several doctors. There are serious risks associated with leaving

gallstones alone and causing the gallbladder to rupture (often leads to

death...), just as there are risks of having the cholecystectomy (gallbladder

removal surgery).

All depends on exactly where and what is the problem in the biliary tree.

Kim M.

SCD 6 years

>

> will scd help with this??? and/or gallbladder issues?

> thanks

> Eileen

>

April 18, 2010

thanks so much for your insight Kim- no not for me THANK GOD!!! I'm doing quite

well

Eileen

> >

> > will scd help with this??? and/or gallbladder issues?

> > thanks

> > Eileen

> >

>

April 18, 2010

Just to throw in my 2 cents worth - I had a large gall stone diagnosed a few

weeks ago. I did all my research on doing flushes and also talked to the

surgeon to get a good understanding of whether I would be better or worse off

having the gall bladder removed. What he pointed out was that a large stone

takes a number of years to form and in the process, is inflaming the gall

bladder which then ceases to work effectively. He said that to leave the stone

alone was fine, but could in a small number of cases lead to gall bladder

cancer. Trying to flush a large stone carried the risk of it getting stuck in

the bile duct, which could tear it. This is not life threatening, but leads to

some very heavy duty surgery and a very long recovery process (months). I opted

for the keyhole surgery about 3 weeks ago as I wanted to be free of the pain and

get on with life. I was only in for a day and a night, the only SCD-edible food

was fruit salad which was fine as I was so drugged up. My recovery was pretty

rapid - 1 week off work and 1 week at half hours and now my energy is coming

back for the first time in years. I have stuck to SCD rigidly and although I

still have the same symptoms as before the surgery, they are getting less and

less and I feel better and better.

Cheers

IBS/IBD

SCD Feb 10

> > > >

> > > > will scd help with this??? and/or gallbladder issues?

> > > > thanks

> > > > Eileen

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 19, 2010

thanks all

eileen

> > > > > >

> > > > > > will scd help with this??? and/or gallbladder issues?

> > > > > > thanks

> > > > > > Eileen

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 19, 2010

I started taking milk thistle on April 1st due to having high liver enzymes. It

didn't seem to affect me negatively. On the night of the 9th, I had a lot of

pain in the middle of my abdomen (right under my ribs) and the mid part of my

back. I stopped the milk thistle, and ate lightly all week. Then on the 16th, I

had even worse pain (more in the back than the abdomen) about an hour after

eating some acorn squash. It lasted for several hours. Once again, I'm eating

really lightly. I don't have a gallbladder (it was full of stones, so had it

taken out in 2003), but could I have stones in the liver or pancreas? Should I

not start up the milk thistle again?

Holly

Crohn's

SCD 12/01/08

>

> Hey,

>

> I just wanted to clarify that flushing large gallbladder stones is very

> dangerous, and should not be attempted. That's why milk thistle can be a

> problem in those situations. The gallbladder detoxes I recommended, the ones

> for large stones work to _dissolve_ the stones, not flush them. Be careful

> to do the detox for large stones.

>

> Best

>

April 20, 2010

I heard that taking out the gallbladder does not help at all with the stones!!!!

Holly,

I had my gallbladder out in '08. Since then I did several liver flushes and lots of stones came out, some really large ones. I asked my doctor about it...where these stones come from if no gallbladder. He said they collect in the common bile duct. I'm sure I still have more but want to wait until I'm stronger before I deal with them. DarleneIntestinal Dysbiosis/CFSSCD 8 weeks

From: spookyhurst <spookyhurst (AT) yahoo (DOT) com>To: BTVC-SCD Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 8:39:56 PMSubject: Re: stone blocking bile duct

I started taking milk thistle on April 1st due to having high liver enzymes. It didn't seem to affect me negatively. On the night of the 9th, I had a lot of pain in the middle of my abdomen (right under my ribs) and the mid part of my back. I stopped the milk thistle, and ate lightly all week. Then on the 16th, I had even worse pain (more in the back than the abdomen) about an hour after eating some acorn squash. It lasted for several hours. Once again, I'm eating really lightly. I don't have a gallbladder (it was full of stones, so had it taken out in 2003), but could I have stones in the liver or pancreas? Should I not start up the milk thistle again?HollyCrohn'sSCD 12/01/08 >> Hey,> > I just wanted to clarify that flushing large gallbladder stones is very> dangerous, and should not be attempted. That's why milk thistle can be a> problem in those situations. The gallbladder detoxes I recommended, the ones> for large stones work to _dissolve_ the stones, not flush them. Be careful> to do the detox for large stones.> > Best > >

April 20, 2010

Holly

High

liver enzymes indicate a blockage in the common bile duct, or something else

going on in your biliary tree. Since you don’t have a gallbladder,

that eliminates one potential problem, but there are several other things that

can occur. The milk thistle is undoubtedly aggravating the problem, so I’d

probably not use it again. I’d head for your doctors, since the

pain keeps reoccurring. I believe you can still get bile sludge that can

prevent the common bile duct from emptying properly, and then there are other

functional issues such as Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction.

I’ve

had elevated liver enzymes several times before and after my diagnosis of

Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction. They were quite high by the time of my

diagnosis and I ended up getting an ERCP with sphincterotomy when my doctor

also found that my common bile duct was blocked simply because the Sphincter of

Oddi wasn’t letting the duct empty properly. At other times my

biliary tree managed to recover on its own, my liver enzymes dropped, so I didn’t

need to go back for another ERCP and face getting a stent or another

sphincterotomy. But that is always a concern given my diagnosis, so I get

my liver enzymes tested twice a year, along with the pancreatic enzymes.

I

hate to say this, but it is also somewhat common for people who have their

gallbladders removed to develop further problems with their Sphincter of Oddi

or in the biliary tree. I think the latest statistics were 12% of people who

have their gallbladder removed go on to develop functional digestive disorders

of one sort or another. It can take several years, or longer, for

problems to develop. Hopefully you aren’t one of this percentage,

but it also isn’t the end of the world if you are. There are plenty

of us dealing with a cranky upper GI [grin].

If

you do end up needing an ERCP, make sure your doctor is experienced with the

procedure, and won’t turn it over to interns. Not every

gastroenterologist is good with an ERCP, so ask some questions. There are

risks associated with an ERCP, but sometimes it is necessary. It

certainly helped me, and I was lucky enough that my gastroenterologist happens

to be a world-renowned expert with ERCPs. But it also took me several

tries with doctors before I found my current gastroenterologist. The

first few doctors I saw were no help at all, and missed a lot of signs that

indicated I had Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction and a blocked bile duct.

Kim M.

SCD 6 years

Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction 6+ years

neurological & spinal deterioration 3+ years

April 20, 2010

Holly,

I had my gallbladder out in '08. Since then I did several liver flushes and lots of stones came out, some really large ones. I asked my doctor about it...where these stones come from if no gallbladder. He said they collect in the common bile duct. I'm sure I still have more but want to wait until I'm stronger before I deal with them. DarleneIntestinal Dysbiosis/CFSSCD 8 weeks

To: BTVC-SCD Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 8:39:56 PMSubject: Re: stone blocking bile duct

I started taking milk thistle on April 1st due to having high liver enzymes. It didn't seem to affect me negatively. On the night of the 9th, I had a lot of pain in the middle of my abdomen (right under my ribs) and the mid part of my back. I stopped the milk thistle, and ate lightly all week. Then on the 16th, I had even worse pain (more in the back than the abdomen) about an hour after eating some acorn squash. It lasted for several hours. Once again, I'm eating really lightly. I don't have a gallbladder (it was full of stones, so had it taken out in 2003), but could I have stones in the liver or pancreas? Should I not start up the milk thistle again?HollyCrohn'sSCD 12/01/08 >> Hey,> > I just wanted to

clarify that flushing large gallbladder stones is very> dangerous, and should not be attempted. That's why milk thistle can be a> problem in those situations. The gallbladder detoxes I recommended, the ones> for large stones work to _dissolve_ the stones, not flush them. Be careful> to do the detox for large stones.> > Best > >

April 20, 2010

mine have been elevated after diflucan and went back down on their own

eileen

>

> Holly

>

> High liver enzymes indicate a blockage in the common bile duct, or something

> else going on in your biliary tree. Since you don't have a gallbladder,

> that eliminates one potential problem, but there are several other things

> that can occur. The milk thistle is undoubtedly aggravating the problem, so

> I'd probably not use it again. I'd head for your doctors, since the pain

> keeps reoccurring. I believe you can still get bile sludge that can prevent

> the common bile duct from emptying properly, and then there are other

> functional issues such as Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction.

>

> I've had elevated liver enzymes several times before and after my diagnosis

> of Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction. They were quite high by the time of my

> diagnosis and I ended up getting an ERCP with sphincterotomy when my doctor

> also found that my common bile duct was blocked simply because the Sphincter

> of Oddi wasn't letting the duct empty properly. At other times my biliary

> tree managed to recover on its own, my liver enzymes dropped, so I didn't

> need to go back for another ERCP and face getting a stent or another

> sphincterotomy. But that is always a concern given my diagnosis, so I get

> my liver enzymes tested twice a year, along with the pancreatic enzymes.

>

> I hate to say this, but it is also somewhat common for people who have their

> gallbladders removed to develop further problems with their Sphincter of

> Oddi or in the biliary tree. I think the latest statistics were 12% of

> people who have their gallbladder removed go on to develop functional

> digestive disorders of one sort or another. It can take several years, or

> longer, for problems to develop. Hopefully you aren't one of this

> percentage, but it also isn't the end of the world if you are. There are

> plenty of us dealing with a cranky upper GI [grin].

>

> If you do end up needing an ERCP, make sure your doctor is experienced with

> the procedure, and won't turn it over to interns. Not every

> gastroenterologist is good with an ERCP, so ask some questions. There are

> risks associated with an ERCP, but sometimes it is necessary. It certainly

> helped me, and I was lucky enough that my gastroenterologist happens to be a

> world-renowned expert with ERCPs. But it also took me several tries with

> doctors before I found my current gastroenterologist. The first few doctors

> I saw were no help at all, and missed a lot of signs that indicated I had

> Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction and a blocked bile duct.

>

> Kim M.

>

> SCD 6 years

>

> Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction 6+ years

>

> neurological & spinal deterioration 3+ years

>

April 20, 2010

Gallstones are crystallized bile components that can occur anywhere along the

biliary tree (liver, gallbladder, common bile duct). Treatment depends on the

size and quanity of gallstones, and where they are lodged. Flushes can help or

make things worse.

No, gallstones get mixed in with chyme (food) and are carried along the

intestinal tract, so end up in the feces and the toilet.

Kim M.

SCD 6 years

>

> So if you have gallstones that show up on x-ray, that means they are

> calcified, right? Can you do a flush with those to get rid of them?

>

> And, dumb question (or dumber) but do they flush via urinary tract?

>

> Gracias,

> Debbie 41 cd

>

April 20, 2010

Debbie, Depending on the size, you can flush them, or you'll need to dissolve them if you think they are larger. Great instructions on how to do this in the book Healing With Whole Foods by Pitchford

...do not attempt to flush a large gallstone though, make sure you dissolve it :)Best,

Gallstones are crystallized bile components that can occur anywhere along the biliary tree (liver, gallbladder, common bile duct). Treatment depends on the size and quanity of gallstones, and where they are lodged. Flushes can help or make things worse.

No, gallstones get mixed in with chyme (food) and are carried along the intestinal tract, so end up in the feces and the toilet.

Kim M.

SCD 6 years

>

> So if you have gallstones that show up on x-ray, that means they are

> calcified, right? Can you do a flush with those to get rid of them?

>

> And, dumb question (or dumber) but do they flush via urinary tract?

>

> Gracias,

> Debbie 41 cd

>

April 20, 2010

I can only use certain oils or it makes me sick which knocked out 98% of fast foods from the beginning--way pre-SCD. Something about the heavy grease just kills me.

I know they show up on x-ray, ultrasound and the hydasound but nobody has ever said size. I guess if I don't know, I shouldn't try to do a flush?

Thanks,

Debbie (somehow I already now that's just crazy to try but just looking for input)

April 21, 2010

Holly

No,

ultrasounds, MRCPs, CT scans won’t always identify a bile duct blockage –

it depends on the type of blockage. I had what my doctor called a “pool”

of bile from a blockage in my common bile duct that wasn’t identified

until my ERCP. Because I have Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction the muscles

weren’t allowing the common bile duct to empty completely, an

obstruction/blockage of sorts. Since it wasn’t a stone or sludge,

nothing but an ERCP could see it.

A

lot depends on your symptoms. By the time I had the ERCP, I’d had

the common bile duct blockage for 6 months, so I was in a lot of pain with

plenty of other symptoms to indicate something was wrong in my right upper

quadrant.

For

gallstones and/or bile sludge, ultrasounds or MRCP or CT scans will see the

problem. And most people with common bile duct blockages are dealing with

gallstones or a diseased gallbladder, which turns up on ultrasounds or basic

scans. HIDA scans also can identify problems with the biliary

tree. But if your symptoms are persistent, and worsening, then sometimes

you need an ERCP. It is a procedure with risks, so you want a skilled

doctor doing the ERCP. I didn’t have any complications,

fortunately, and it solved my bile duct blockage problem, even if nothing can

be done about the Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction.

Kim M.

SCD 6 years

Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction 6+ years

neurological & spinal deterioration 3+ years

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Would

a blocked bile duct, or sludge, show up on an abdominal ultrasound? I had one a

couple weeks ago, and they said it was normal.

Holly

Crohn's

SCD 12/01/08

April 22, 2010

Thanks Kim, this is all very interesting information! I'm still waiting on a

call back from my GI to see what she thinks I should do. In the mean time, I'm

eating one food at a time, every two or three hours, and all seems to be okay

*crosses fingers*. I haven't had any fruit or vegetables in ages though (except

for fruit juice in my jello). I miss them, but am afraid to add them back since

my last pain episode was an hour after some acorn squash :-(

During the 6 months you were waiting for diagnosis, was your pain constant or

nearly constant? Or did you have have days that were fine, then WHAM, problems?

Holly

Crohn's

SCD 12/01/08

>

> Holly

>

> No, ultrasounds, MRCPs, CT scans won't always identify a bile duct blockage

> - it depends on the type of blockage. I had what my doctor called a " pool "

> of bile from a blockage in my common bile duct that wasn't identified until

> my ERCP. Because I have Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction the muscles weren't

> allowing the common bile duct to empty completely, an obstruction/blockage

> of sorts. Since it wasn't a stone or sludge, nothing but an ERCP could see

> it.

>

> A lot depends on your symptoms. By the time I had the ERCP, I'd had the

> common bile duct blockage for 6 months, so I was in a lot of pain with

> plenty of other symptoms to indicate something was wrong in my right upper

> quadrant.

>

> For gallstones and/or bile sludge, ultrasounds or MRCP or CT scans will see

> the problem. And most people with common bile duct blockages are dealing

> with gallstones or a diseased gallbladder, which turns up on ultrasounds or

> basic scans. HIDA scans also can identify problems with the biliary tree.

> But if your symptoms are persistent, and worsening, then sometimes you need

> an ERCP. It is a procedure with risks, so you want a skilled doctor doing

> the ERCP. I didn't have any complications, fortunately, and it solved my

> bile duct blockage problem, even if nothing can be done about the Sphincter

> of Oddi dysfunction.

>

> Kim M.

>

> SCD 6 years

>

> Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction 6+ years

>

> neurological & spinal deterioration 3+ years

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> Would a blocked bile duct, or sludge, show up on an abdominal ultrasound? I

> had one a couple weeks ago, and they said it was normal.

>

> Holly

> Crohn's

> SCD 12/01/08

>

April 23, 2010

Hey,Steve - Gallbladder detoxes are extremely effective at dealing with stones. They have saved thousands of people from surgery. Unfortunately, ignorance and the monopoly of profit based western medicine keeps them from becoming more well known. Surgery is an extremely profitable business. Detoxes from whole foods, is not. We should all know this lesson well - SCD works, yet still many people undergo colon surgery every year, not knowing about it. It's very sad.

Some of the most simple gallbladder flushes use mostly apples. Apples, Steve, do not cause you to develop stones in your stool. Milk thistle can also flush some stones. Milk thistle does not cause you to develop stones in your stool.

But, again, do not attempt a flush for large stones - do a dissolve detox.Holly - little late responding, but if you did not have upper abdomen pain before taking milk thistle I would discontinue immediately. I do not have the experience others have knowing what high liver enzymes can mean, but if you are concerned that it is stones I would try a dissolve detox. The boundaries between organs are really a grey area sometimes, especially in Chinese medicine. For example, classic Chinese medicine considers the spleen to really be another lobe of the liver, and really considers you to have liver on both sides. So, if you are experiencing gallstones in your liver, not just your (now absent?) gallbladder, I would definitely address them with a gallstone dissolve detox.

Best :)p.s. a quote on a Dr. Bronner's magic soap bottle sums it up for me pretty well: 'get out of the crowd, and into truth'

Thanks Kim, this is all very interesting information! I'm still waiting on a call back from my GI to see what she thinks I should do. In the mean time, I'm eating one food at a time, every two or three hours, and all seems to be okay *crosses fingers*. I haven't had any fruit or vegetables in ages though (except for fruit juice in my jello). I miss them, but am afraid to add them back since my last pain episode was an hour after some acorn squash :-(

During the 6 months you were waiting for diagnosis, was your pain constant or nearly constant? Or did you have have days that were fine, then WHAM, problems?