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Hey Cathy!,

I am so glad that you asked this question!! I am considering the

rotation diet as well. We just got started on the SCD diet ourselves (2

weeks in) and, after a die-off the first week, great behavior and

language the following 3-4 days, my son (4 -yr old ASD) has started

downhill in terms of behavior, bloated stomach, etc.

Something is bothering him-- I know that we ramped him up too fast to

raw fruit and whole nuts too soon, so we are going back to peeled,

cooked and deseeded everything for a week, but I am suspecting something

else too.

A friend who recovered her son from autism told me that the SCD diet + a

7-day rotation diet was one of the major successes in her son's story.

I am all ears for what ever answers folks on this list can give about

the rotation diet. Here are some of my specific questions:

* What is the length of time suggested for the rotation (7 days, 4

days, etc.)

* I cook with onions and garlic all the time. Do I also need to rotate

these ingredients as well as other spices? I also use chicken broth a

lot-- will I have to rotate this as well.

* If I have to rotate, say, onions, can I use as a substitute different

members of the onion family (green onions, pearl onions, etc.). It

sounds like I am fixated on onions but you get the point.

* What tips do folks with experience have about how to keep track of

what should be eaten?

Best,

Martha (Mom to Ben)

cjb202207 wrote:

> Does anyone have experience with combining the SCD with the rotation diet?

> I fear that If I don't start rotating the food the kids are eating

> they will become allergic/intolerant to the new foods as they eat too

> much.

> After talking to my son's teacher(teacher interviews) tonight, it

> has only confirmed for me that something is really wrong here...for

> the past month at school he has had increased concentration problems,

> been very silly, a lot as I see it ADHD type behaviour etc.. Things

> have been nuts at home too...this is more than just die-off, or 9 year

> old developemental changes...its all those eggs he has been eating

> everyday for the past month. I don't know why I thought he was okay

> with the eggs...he seemed OK with them for a while...I think he just

> ate too many and became intolerant to them.

> So I am stopping the eggs for a while, ...

> Should I rotate the yogurt too?(yogurt 1 month now) He never ate this

> before the SCD...

>

> He is intolerant to so much food already...if I don't start rotating

> what he can eat...these intolerances could grow.

> Any suggestions appreciated,

> Thanks,

>

> Cathy

> Mom to ,

> celiac/intolerant to much

> scd since aug1,

>

>

--

Martha Sutula, Ph.D.

Southern California Coastal Water Research Project

7171 Fenwick Lane

Westminster, CA 92683

Email: marthas@...

Phone:

Fax:

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We have also begun a rotation diet, as my son has become allergic to almost

everything he was eating everyday. It has been challenging, to say the least.

Whatever food he eats on one day, he does not get that food again until four

days later. It takes a lot of planning. I went through the list of SCD legal

foods, and took everything that my son is not allergic to (that I wanted to

include in his diet) and wrote out a four day diet.

Rotation/SCD diet with a limited diet?

Does anyone have experience with combining the SCD with the rotation diet?

I fear that If I don't start rotating the food the kids are eating

they will become allergic/intolerant to the new foods as they eat too

much.

After talking to my son's teacher(teacher interviews) tonight, it

has only confirmed for me that something is really wrong here...for

the past month at school he has had increased concentration problems,

been very silly, a lot as I see it ADHD type behaviour etc.. Things

have been nuts at home too...this is more than just die-off, or 9 year

old developemental changes...its all those eggs he has been eating

everyday for the past month. I don't know why I thought he was okay

with the eggs...he seemed OK with them for a while...I think he just

ate too many and became intolerant to them.

So I am stopping the eggs for a while, ...

Should I rotate the yogurt too?(yogurt 1 month now) He never ate this

before the SCD...

He is intolerant to so much food already...if I don't start rotating

what he can eat...these intolerances could grow.

Any suggestions appreciated,

Thanks,

Cathy

Mom to ,

celiac/intolerant to much

scd since aug1,

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Cathy,

Rotating foods might be a good strategy in the beginning, because the gut is

probably still pretty damaged if he's only been on SCD since August 1st. If the

individual has a leaky gut, sensitivities could still be an issue until the

microscopic perforations in the gut wall have healed and the biofilm in the

digestive tract has re-established itself .... all tissue healthy, etc.

Rotation is beyond the parameters of SCD itself.... so that's something you'd

need to work out on your own as far as how to implement it.

If you son has not been doing well, can you let us know exactly what he's eating

and how it's prepared? Also what supplements? Sometimes there might be something

else that's causing the glitch.

You are doing goat yogurt? I would not stop giving that.... he really needs

the probiotics in it. Stopping or rotating could let yeast take over. Are you

also giving acidophilus supplements?

Please let us know exactly what he's eating. There could be something else

going on... diet-wise. You can certainly take the eggs out for a few days and

see what happens. I would just like to really go over what he's eating and see

if I can help you out.

Patti

Rotation/SCD diet with a limited diet?

Does anyone have experience with combining the SCD with the rotation diet?

I fear that If I don't start rotating the food the kids are eating

they will become allergic/intolerant to the new foods as they eat too

much.

After talking to my son's teacher(teacher interviews) tonight, it

has only confirmed for me that something is really wrong here...for

the past month at school he has had increased concentration problems,

been very silly, a lot as I see it ADHD type behaviour etc.. Things

have been nuts at home too...this is more than just die-off, or 9 year

old developemental changes...its all those eggs he has been eating

everyday for the past month. I don't know why I thought he was okay

with the eggs...he seemed OK with them for a while...I think he just

ate too many and became intolerant to them.

So I am stopping the eggs for a while, ...

Should I rotate the yogurt too?(yogurt 1 month now) He never ate this

before the SCD...

He is intolerant to so much food already...if I don't start rotating

what he can eat...these intolerances could grow.

Any suggestions appreciated,

Thanks,

Cathy

Mom to ,

celiac/intolerant to much

scd since aug1,

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Martha,

For you child, I think this sounds a little more like you possibly have a yeast

situation. Yeast are very opportunistic and will take over the empty space left

behind by colonies of overgrown bacteria as they die off.

Are you giving acidophilus supplements? Or yogurt yet?

You just started SCD two weeks ago? Or do you mean that you just RE-started two

weeks ago, after pulling out raw foods and whole nuts?

It is probably too soon for onions and garlic if you're only two weeks in.

Let us know exactly what he's eating now, how it's prepared and what

supplements, if any.... and when you pulled the raw foods and whole nuts,

okay?

I'm not meaning to discourage you from doing a rotation schedule.... that's

probably wise for cases where the gut is severely damaged and leaky.... because

healing that does take time and it makes sense that exposure to the same foods

every day could create sensitivities, but that really should diminish as the gut

heals. You may not need to do that for very long.

BUT, we need to make sure you're implementing SCD correctly so you have the best

chance of success.

Let's see what's going on.

Patti

Re: Rotation/SCD diet with a limited diet?

Hey Cathy!,

I am so glad that you asked this question!! I am considering the

rotation diet as well. We just got started on the SCD diet ourselves (2

weeks in) and, after a die-off the first week, great behavior and

language the following 3-4 days, my son (4 -yr old ASD) has started

downhill in terms of behavior, bloated stomach, etc.

Something is bothering him-- I know that we ramped him up too fast to

raw fruit and whole nuts too soon, so we are going back to peeled,

cooked and deseeded everything for a week, but I am suspecting something

else too.

A friend who recovered her son from autism told me that the SCD diet + a

7-day rotation diet was one of the major successes in her son's story.

I am all ears for what ever answers folks on this list can give about

the rotation diet. Here are some of my specific questions:

* What is the length of time suggested for the rotation (7 days, 4

days, etc.)

* I cook with onions and garlic all the time. Do I also need to rotate

these ingredients as well as other spices? I also use chicken broth a

lot-- will I have to rotate this as well.

* If I have to rotate, say, onions, can I use as a substitute different

members of the onion family (green onions, pearl onions, etc.). It

sounds like I am fixated on onions but you get the point.

* What tips do folks with experience have about how to keep track of

what should be eaten?

Best,

Martha (Mom to Ben)

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Hey Patti,

Thanks so much for responding. I think you are right...we are still

dealing with yeast. We just started on the diet 2 weeks ago, but have

been gluten- and casein-free for 9 months. We have been giving him

probiotic supplements and Nystatin for about 6 months.

I have to confess that I jumped into the diet without completely reading

how to implement it. I went back over the intro diet last night and also

about how to phase in fruits, nuts and vegetables -- I didn't do any of

that.

Back to the drawing board.

I will reread the book tonight and start fresh tomorrow. Look for more

questions from me--I sure that I will have them.

Best,

Martha

Patti wrote:

> Martha,

>

> For you child, I think this sounds a little more like you possibly

> have a yeast situation. Yeast are very opportunistic and will take

> over the empty space left behind by colonies of overgrown bacteria as

> they die off.

>

> Are you giving acidophilus supplements? Or yogurt yet?

>

> You just started SCD two weeks ago? Or do you mean that you just

> RE-started two weeks ago, after pulling out raw foods and whole nuts?

>

> It is probably too soon for onions and garlic if you're only two weeks in.

>

> Let us know exactly what he's eating now, how it's prepared and what

> supplements, if any.... and when you pulled the raw foods and whole

> nuts, okay?

>

> I'm not meaning to discourage you from doing a rotation schedule....

> that's probably wise for cases where the gut is severely damaged and

> leaky.... because healing that does take time and it makes sense that

> exposure to the same foods every day could create sensitivities, but

> that really should diminish as the gut heals. You may not need to do

> that for very long.

>

> BUT, we need to make sure you're implementing SCD correctly so you

> have the best chance of success.

>

> Let's see what's going on.

>

> Patti

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Patti,

Thanks for your response. Before I answer some of your questions:

severe & mod. hiccups(on/off for hours) caused by baking soda ,with both

my kids immediately after eating my egg-free squash/banana

buttons(just 2)..(I tried this 2x now)just bit honey, baking soda(just

a bit)...this has led me to reading about PH and acid/alkaline

balance...my son would get hiccups on/off for hours in past, for up to

36h straight to foods he was sensitive to..

My son used tons of zantac, prilosec until 4, and my daughter used

prilosec short term and zantac until SCD(6yrs).....They are eating a

more alkaline diet now...R still has tons of gas right now...she had

" no " gas ever before SCD, she never had gas!!!!!Even when she used no

zantac for long periods.(still no yogurt,eggs,nbutters)...I'm

wondering if there is any acid left in their tummys????? Maybe

someone has thoughts on this?...Or maybe I just read too much...Is

there something I should know about baking soda...mine is also

gluten-free?

exactly what he's eating and how it's prepared? Also what supplements?

pears, apples, banana, carrots, zucchini, bell peppers, broccoli,

cauliflower, sp. squash, acorn squash, heinz tomato

juice(sauce),pineapple, raisin(sch. treat), tropicana apple, pear

juice,apple sauce

rasp/strawberry..cooked strained for smoothies, berry/yogurt pie

filling...1/2 the honey

was eating canteloupe, peaches...none since october

everything cooked,peeled deseeded ..peppers not peeled, zucchini not

seeded

>veges boiled, grilled in oven, microwaved

fruit baked in oven in A juice, boiled ..usually ate with no honey

Yogurt, eggs everyday..for 6 weeks, pork, beef, chicken,turkey..pureed

chicken

Meats barbecued, roasted in oven mostly,sometimes glazed with minimal

honey(ribs,legs), ocasionally micro then fried meatballs..no skins

> You are doing goat yogurt? I would not stop giving that.... he

really needs the probiotics in it. Stopping or rotating could let

yeast take over. Are you also giving acidophilus supplements?

>

Acidophilus..1/2 capsule ...2x day in apple sauce

Kal crystal calcium with D...just starting

> Please let us know exactly what he's eating. There could be

something else going on... diet-wise. You can certainly take the

eggs out for a few days and see what happens. I would just like to

really go over what he's eating and see if I can help you out.

Removed eggs yesterday, except for meringue pie crust(2eggwhites) he

is eating today/tomm. at grandmas..

Thanks,

Sorry for asking more questions.

Cathy

, -celiac

scd aug1...

>

>

>

>

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Patti,

Sorry for not enough detail.

The apple juice is canadian-Tropicana pure premium apple juice-Not

from concentrate..all it is a fresh pressed apples

Pear juice is R.W. Knudsen Organic pear nectar-Juice from organic

pears,ascorbic acid

Gi Pro Health Scdophilus

Kal crystal calcium-vitamin d, calcium gluconate,calcium

lactate........... has only had a small amount of Calcium

once.....2 weeks ago.

Taking veges from them is not going to be easy..especially

...she is hungry sometimes now...eggs, yogurt..make her

sick......If she has a choice of going hungry or eating more meat she

will go hungry everytime.

Thanks,

Cathy

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>

> Patti,

> Sorry for not enough detail.

> The apple juice is canadian-Tropicana pure premium apple juice-Not

> from concentrate..all it is a fresh pressed apples

> Pear juice is R.W. Knudsen Organic pear nectar-Juice from organic

> pears,ascorbic acid

> Gi Pro Health Scdophilus

> Kal crystal calcium-vitamin d, calcium gluconate,calcium

> lactate........... has only had a small amount of Calcium

> once.....2 weeks ago.

>

Cathy, NO commercial apple juice is legal but fresh pressed apple cider is. The

only legal

Knudson juices are their " Just Juice " line. Tropicana Orange Juice Is legal even

though

theoir apple juice is not.

Carol F.

SCD 6 years, celiac

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> >

> > Patti,

> > Sorry for not enough detail.

> > The apple juice is canadian-Tropicana pure premium apple juice-Not

> > from concentrate..all it is a fresh pressed apples

> > Pear juice is R.W. Knudsen Organic pear nectar-Juice from organic

> > pears,ascorbic acid

> > Gi Pro Health Scdophilus

> > Kal crystal calcium-vitamin d, calcium gluconate,calcium

> > lactate........... has only had a small amount of Calcium

> > once.....2 weeks ago.

> >

> Cathy, NO commercial apple juice is legal but fresh pressed apple

cider is. The only legal

> Knudson juices are their " Just Juice " line. Tropicana Orange Juice

Is legal even though

> theoir apple juice is not.

>

> Carol F.

> SCD 6 years, celiac

>

Thanks Carol,

We will use the Trop. OJ?

Is store bought apple sauce a no too? I've been using President's

Choice unsweentened apple sauce.

Cathy

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> > >

> > > Patti,

> > > Sorry for not enough detail.

> > > The apple juice is canadian-Tropicana pure premium apple juice-Not

> > > from concentrate..all it is a fresh pressed apples

> > > Pear juice is R.W. Knudsen Organic pear nectar-Juice from organic

> > > pears,ascorbic acid

> > > Gi Pro Health Scdophilus

> > > Kal crystal calcium-vitamin d, calcium gluconate,calcium

> > > lactate........... has only had a small amount of Calcium

> > > once.....2 weeks ago.

> > >

> > Cathy, NO commercial apple juice is legal but fresh pressed apple

> cider is. The only legal

> > Knudson juices are their " Just Juice " line. Tropicana Orange Juice

> Is legal even though

> > theoir apple juice is not.

> >

> > Carol F.

> > SCD 6 years, celiac

> >

> Thanks Carol,

> We will use the Trop. OJ?

> Is store bought apple sauce a no too? I've been using President's

> Choice unsweentened apple sauce.

>

> Cathy

>

Cathy, have you read BTVC yet? Please review from page 73 in edition 10 to page

81.

Commercial pplesauce is a " no no. " Sorry. Make large batches of homeade and

freeze.

Check out why store bought is not usually a good idea.

http://www.pecanbread.com/foodprep.html#homemade

Ypu will soon get the hang of it

Carol F.

SCD 6 years, celiac

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Hi Patti,

<< I know some people cannot tolerate baking soda but I can't remember

why. I'll have to let Sheila or Carol maybe answer that one. >>

Intolerance to baking soda seems to be related to ulcers or having low

stomach acid. (Low stomach acid and ulcers are thought to be related

in a cause and effect manner - Low stomach acid causes the ulcer.

Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 22yrs

mom of and

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Thanks Patti, and Thanks Everyone

I will take a step back. The rotation diet probably is a bad idea.

I really did mess things up with the juice. I thought I was being

careful..the juice was also diluted...they didn't like it diluted..

We started a little probiotic the beginning of October. He was taking

the full caspule daily at the start of November.(the yogurt started up

in november too)

That would be wonderful if the eggs are not the problem.

I will read before I consider calcium.

Pulling the juice might make a big difference

As far as the raisins, they were only getting 1 or 2 small boxes a

week(I told the teacher no more than 2) since mid october. I don't

know why those teachers feel it so necessary to give out cupcakes 2-3

times a week.(my daughter's teacher). has no more raisins left

at school because her teacher gave away to the other kids.She's

thoughtful.

My son's teacher gives out candy 2-3times a day. He was only getting 1

raisin box a week if he was lucky...he had to do good on 3 things a

day just to get his treat because his treat was bigger..he was having

such problems...he only got his treat when he had a perfect day...and

that didn't happen often...sometimes it took 10 days.

I'll take things easy again with the food. My daughter says she wants

to try soup again if I buy her a new thermos...her friends at school

have soup....

Thanks for all the Advice, I appreciate it,

Cathy

>

> Cathy,

>

> Let's take a step back. You're mostly concerned about your son's

behavior, right? You said:

>

> <<for the past month at school he has had increased concentration

problems,

> been very silly, a lot as I see it ADHD type behaviour etc.. Things

> have been nuts at home too...this is more than just die-off, >>

>

> .... and you said you felt this is due to all the eggs he's been

getting lately. I'm not saying that's not a possibility, but there

could be a number of different things factoring in.

>

> First and foremost, the whole goal is to get that leaky gut healed

up... one of the positive benefits of which is so that chances of

sensitivities to foods will diminish. That's MY goal for you....

getting to the healing, as effectively and quickly as possible.

Sometimes that means pulling back foods that are harder to digest.

Experience has taught us... and frankly, Elaine herself taught us this

specifically.... that these foods: cabbage family, legumes and

seeds, etc. .... need to be considered more advanced and not started

too soon, or healing will be impeded.

>

> We just hate to have to tell people they need to pull foods out...

especially veggies! But, that *might* be necessary.

>

> First thing I would do is get all the illegal juices out. ly,

although I know Tropicana orange juice is " legal " , I don't ever buy

it. I know I am very lucky in that my daughter is happy with plain

water to drink... or SCD honey lemonade (fresh lemon juice, water and

a tidge of honey... you could use saccharin). I have a juicer, so if

she was a big juice fan, I would probably make my own fresh apple

juice.... which is the ONLY legal apple juice other than fresh

farm-pressed, unfiltered cider. I can't easily find that type where I

live, so it's a lot easier just to make some on my kitchen counter.

>

> **Side note: And slipping a carrot in with the apples makes a

lovely, sweet, orange apple juice that my (non-SCD) 4 yr old

granddaughter LOVES, even though she wouldn't dream of eating an

actual carrot.**

>

> So.... if you stick with legal juices (dilute, dilute, dilute)....

I think that would be a very good first step.

>

> Next, it sounds like you are going to need to remove baking soda

because it's causing a reaction for both kids. That will sure impact

your baking results... but might make them much more comfortable. Any

time you can make a kid feel better physically, they are going to be

happier and calmer, at least that's been true at my house.

>

> You didn't say when you started the SCdophilus. I'd be interested

to know. It's a very important supp to have going in.... but I know

that *some* kids get hyper, silly, etc.-type behaviors from

probiotics. We are not entirely sure why.

>

> Tamaro thinks it may have to due with the probiotics (and

those in yogurt can do this, too) breaking down/dissolving oxalate

crystals.... which is a good thing, except that the waste product,

oxalic acid, can be irritating to the gut. Then you also need to have

adequate amounts of the fat soluable vitamins on board (A, D, K) to

allow the body to put free calcium down where it belongs... in the

bones and teeth.... instead of floating around causing trouble in the

brain. Let me know if you don't have the link to her article. It's

just something to think about. I would at least read her paper before

giving any more of that calcium supplement, and it *may* be a

clue to the behavior you're seeing in this past month.

>

> On the other foods.... I think it would be *ideal* to pull out ALL

the more advanced things...and add them back slowly, one at a time,

watching closely..... but if you don't want to pull out the broccoli

and cauliflower just yet, then leave them in for now.... and see how

things go.

>

> Can you possibly prepare the bell peppers in a way that you can

remove the skin? You could roast them in the oven.... the scrape the

inner flesh away from the skin with a spoon. I know... that sounds

like a lot of work, but it might make them more digestible for now....

and still something you could possibly leave in their diets. Oh... and

don't worry about de-seeding the zucchini... if they are young

slender ones, the tiny soft seeds inside are not a problem.

>

> The raisins are " iffy " , for sure. I think you will need to assess

that situation.... how their BMs look.... how many raisins are they

eating.... how well are they chewing them? Etc, etc. I know that my

daughter gets loose stools if she has more than five or six raisins in

a day.... and I have to dole them out and make sure she chews them, or

they go right through. Then I have to just not give her any for

several weeks. There are some similar substitutes I can think of...

but they'd involve some added work for you, and a food dehydrator. Let

me know if you even want me to elaborate.

>

> You might find that just changing to the legal juices and pulling

baking soda will make a difference. I truly feel that focusing on

getting the healing really moving forward will eliminate the worry

over developing more sensitivities, but you can certainly consider

rotating foods if you still feel strongly about that. I don't think

it's something you'd have to keep doing forever.

>

> Let's see how it goes from there.

>

>

> Patti

>

> Re: Rotation/SCD diet with a limited diet?

>

>

> Patti,

> Sorry for not enough detail.

> The apple juice is canadian-Tropicana pure premium apple juice-Not

> from concentrate..all it is a fresh pressed apples

> Pear juice is R.W. Knudsen Organic pear nectar-Juice from organic

> pears,ascorbic acid

> Gi Pro Health Scdophilus

> Kal crystal calcium-vitamin d, calcium gluconate,calcium

> lactate........... has only had a small amount of Calcium

> once.....2 weeks ago.

>

> Taking veges from them is not going to be easy..especially

> ...she is hungry sometimes now...eggs, yogurt..make her

> sick......If she has a choice of going hungry or eating more meat she

> will go hungry everytime.

>

> Thanks,

> Cathy

>

>

>

>

>

>

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