Re: Kids who taunt/ way OT

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/2003 12:08:19 AM Central Daylight Time,

lacorona@... writes:

> 3. When they say, well, this is the real world, and the real world isn't

> fair.

> (No, the real world has remedies for injustice and bullying. School should

> not be LESS than the world, but at least EQUAL to the real world in which

> there

> are remedies when people overstep boundaries. What would you do in your

> adult

> world, if your colleagues at work treated you this way, said this to you,

> put

> their hands on you in this way? What does this tell you about the double

> standard re kids and adults?)

-------------------------------------------------------

That double standard has infuriated me for at least a generation -- or more.

I will NEVER forget the day I sent a pre-teen into a dep't store with an item

she wanted to return, while I drove around the lot (no parking close enuf for

my 300-lb body to negotiate in those days). She came back out saying the clerk

refused to allow the return. In high dudgeon, I parked and huffed my way into

the store, kid at my side. When I -- the ADULT -- said I wanted to return the

item, there was no argument and no problem whatsoever. I asked the woman WHY

she refused to let my daughter return the item. Her reply: " well, she's just a

KID. " Jeez, so what? The KID's money had been good enuf to buy the item;

they didn't refuse to SELL it to her. It really opened my eyes and I suddenly

saw a LOT of unfairness in the way kids are treated, not only by their peers,

but by adults, esp adults in authority, who abused their power. It's shameful.

Carol A

[Guest guest]

Ceep,

Thank you for the summary of your experiences. I could not agree

with you more that kids need to be taught how to be civil and to

treat others with respect from day 1. The old adage, " kids will be

kids " or " boys will be boys " is old school thinking. Your summary

should be mailed to every elementary, junior and high school in the

country. AND sent home to every parent.

cindy

lap RNY 2/8/02

> Dear Brave Souls: 's post caught my eye, for I have experience

in the

> area. Just my two cent's worth.

> Most of you who have been on the list a long time along with me

know that I

> was a post-trauma specialist at Columbine High School from right

after the

> massacre in 1999 til 2003. These are the things I taught the ADULTS

of the

> community and of the staff while I was there. It was astonishing

how disempowered

> everyone felt, knowing that many things were awry, but feeling

helpless to stop

> them. It takes adults acting like ADULTs, taking charge with

kindness and

> firmness, insisting, holding no person less than another, no

goodness of human

> nature as less than another, BUT holding certain behaviors as

completely

> off-limits. Period.

>

> Here is some food for thought. These are the things that were said

to me,

> many times. In parens are my general responses:

> 1. When people say, well, kids will be kids.

> (No they are in school to learn social skills as well as

intellectual skills.

> Acting courteously comes under social skill learning. What are you

doing to

> teach social skills in this area? What kind of support do you need

from me?)

>

> 2. When people say, well, the child just has to learn to put up

with it like

> we all did when we were young.

> (No. When we were young, adults overlooked this kind of rotten

behavior. You

> see the results of it in over high uncivilized public discourses

today. This

> is a new generation that needs to learn to figure out ways to get

the most of

> what they would like that is possible, and without denigrating

anyone including

> themselves. Do you yourself know how to do that? If not, or if you

do, either

> way, would you like to learn more new and effective ways than you

already

> know? Do you know how to teach these to children? )

>

> 3. When they say, well, this is the real world, and the real world

isn't fair.

> (No, the real world has remedies for injustice and bullying. School

should

> not be LESS than the world, but at least EQUAL to the real world in

which there

> are remedies when people overstep boundaries. What would you do in

your adult

> world, if your colleagues at work treated you this way, said this

to you, put

> their hands on you in this way? What does this tell you about the

double

> standard re kids and adults?)

>

> 4. When they say, the kids will tease/ taunt/ bully even harder if

your bring

> it to their attention.

> (No, the kids are dying (often literally I am afraid) to have

ADULTS find the

> principle that applies to decency amongst the students, and to

teach it with

> humor and seriousness, to stick to that principle, day after day,

no

> exceptions. What is your principle with regard to teaching decency

to children?)

>

> 5. When people say, well you just want the world to be all touchy-

feely.

> (No. We want the world to be a place of decency where the soul,

heart and

> disciplined mind leads the discourse. This includes courtesy, if

not also

> kindness. This includes respect, if not also continuing

relationship. This includes

> regard, if not also concern. These are the premises of an advanced

> civilization, not of the mayhem that passes for " society " in many

systems today. It is up

> to adults to set the model to be followed. What model are you

using?)

>

> 6. When they say, what can I do? I didn't see it, hear it, etc.

> (No. PUt both children in detention regardless of who did what.

Hold them

> both innocent for that day only. Teach during that detention how

people talk to

> each other with decency. Tell them, even if they disagree with one

another,

> they must treat one another far better tomorrow and all days

ensuing. Tell them

> you will be watching. Compliment them when they do well. Pull them

up short

> when they do not. Some kids are remedial until they go through the

same thing 3

> or 4 times. )

>

> 7. When they say, boys will be boys/ or girls will be girls

> (No. Boys will become the men we help them to become. Girls will

become the

> women we help them to become. Teaching them to negotiate when they

can, to

> keep their hands, mouths, gossip and other ways of assaulting the

hearts, minds,

> spirits and bodies of others-- learning to negotiate all these

hazards take

> teaching the children the tools of ADULTHOOD. You don't want to

keep them babies

> forever. You want them to be as happy as they can be as adults with

as little

> time spent in aggravation and irritation. What are the most

sophisticated

> ideas and tools you can think of to teach them NOW?)

>

> 8. When they say you are just trying to coddle children.

> (No. I am for teaching them the real world. In the real world, in

an office,

> you cannot call employees names, you cannot send them written notes

that are

> denigrating, (these are called harassment and will not be tolerated

in the

> workplace), you cannot touch another person in anger (in the REAL

world, this is

> called assault) , you can not stand in a woman's way so that she

must press her

> body against yours in order to get past you(this is called sexual

harassment)

> , you cannot yell at others, threaten others (this is called

menacing), you

> cannot deface their property (this is called vandalism) or steal it

(This is

> called robbery), you cannot harm them or interfere with their right

to do

> business (This is called tortious interference of business

advantage), you cannot

> spread false rumors about them (This is called slander, and

libel), You cannot

> trip them, grab them by the neck, grab their genitalia, throw

things at them,

> endanger their being, and you cannot extort money from them (in the

adult

> world, this is called racketeering and extortion.) The list goes

on. Why? Because

> even some adults have a hard time regulating their behavior, and

the laws have

> been passed to take that into account. Some children have a hard

time

> regulating their behavior until they are taught better. The adults

may have no one to

> teach them But the kids are surrounded by teachers who can give

them a chance

> to live in a better world--- that would be you and all your grace

and smarts

> and love for humanity-- you are the one who sets the tone, the pace

and the

> expectations. What is your tone? What is your pace? What is your

expectation?

> The real world where people have many protections? Or a phony world

where no one

> has protection if they are children?)

>

> 9. When they say, I am just trying to teach here; I am not a judge,

jury,

> social worker. I have to get these kids ready to pass c-saps and

other tests; I

> don't have time to do what their parents ought to be doing.

> (No. Your job is to establish the societal and emotional baseline

at the

> school so you CAN truly teach the kids to pass their tests and

learn the goodness

> of learning that you have to offer them. BUT, and this is a big

BUT, when you

> go to heaven, I promise you that Creator will be far more

interested in whose

> heart you saved and helped, and whose soul you stood for, than what

the SAT

> scores were.

>

> As always, this is just my two cent's worth.

> I saw an immense change in the culture at Columbine. But ONLY

because the

> adults changed, modeled that change, took huge leaps to take

charge, and

> insisted. It didn't take everyone, it only took a small group of

dedicated people who

> refused to be swamped by the first second and third wave of

naysayers.

> Naysayers have had their day, and look at their result-- it is

dreck. It is time for

> others to take the wheel.

> Let is begin with you. If you are on the side of decency to human

beings,

> especially the young and the frail and the vulnerable, you are on

the side of

> right.

> This comes with love,

> ceep G-mom

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the summary of your experiences. I could not agree

with you more that kids need to be taught how to be civil and to

treat others with respect from day 1. The old adage, " kids will be

kids " or " boys will be boys " is old school thinking. Your summary

should be mailed to every elementary, junior and high school in the

country. AND sent home to every parent.

========================================

Amen to that. The principal of my daughter's grammar school is retiring

(yippeeeeee) are you interested in training the new one? Their way of

dealing with unruly, nasty, rude children is mind boggling. Makes

absolutely no sense and the kids aren't getting any better. Just know

what they can get away with and continue on. A third grader started a

fire in the boys bathroom last year. Third grade!!!! The parents were

never notified about it to let us know anything was being done. Instead

you have hysterical children getting off the bus telling us about the

fire in the school. Yet the principal thought it best not to inform the

parents as she didn't want a panic. So instead you have a bunch of 5-9

year olds giving you their interpretation of what happened. I think a

note home saying this issue was being investigated and that they would

keep us posted would have been a bit better than the hysteria of a bunch

of children cleared out of a school for a fire that was started by a 7

year old. Pretty scary stuff. Can't wait to see what this kid comes up

with in the middle school.

This is the last of it from me on this topic. I'm sure we could all

start another support group for this one. : )

Regina

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/2003 11:04:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

brzezinski4@... writes:

His only worries right now should be what cartoon is on TV after school and

doing his best in his school work- I will make sure that is all he has to worry

about.--

______________________________________________________

I am so jealous of people who have protective parents, who take their side.

I believe the choice you made was wrong, but if the lesson he learns is merely

that my mom is on my side so I must be a worthy person, you have given him

the world.

Fay Bayuk

**300/166

10/23/01

Dr.

Open RNY 150 cm

Click for My Profile

http://obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/profile.phtml?N=Bayuk951061008

[Guest guest]

Tara,

I think each of us has to do what is best for our child. I am

one of those that tend to talk my way out of a problem. This doesn't

work for everybody. It seems your son tried other things first. I don't

think he is a bully. He just needs to stand up for himself. However,

like ceep was saying, there are other ways to do it but punching. This

is also one of those topics that everyone has an opinion on.

Lori Owen - Denton, Texas

SRVG 7/16/01

Dr. Ritter/Dr. Bryce

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Tara and Brzezinski

writes:

> I know myabe with my reply to this post and telling all what i said

> to my son to do, i was wrong to a " degree " i wont get into that and

> maybe i added heat to this thread. My son has only been in Military

> Schools(DOD) for 3 1/2 years and rest of his school years have been

> in civilian school about 6 months altogether- Never had a problem in

> DOD schools or the on-post schools. Maybe the kids in those schools

> have other things on thier minds, like deployed parents coming home

> safe or is it because most of the kids are worried about when that

> parent/parent is going to be moved again to the next duty station-

> or it is because those kids really all have a comman bond. Maybe im

> wrong, but his problem happened in a civilian school/ im in no way

> knocking civilian schools. just comparing the type of schools and

> the life styles of those kids and im not saying one is better than

> another. Heck i dont even know what what im trying to say in this

> post Msybe im saying Sorry if i offend anyone in

> my other post and No my son will not be a bulley not in this house

> or in Schools i will show him what it feels like to be bullied

> But i will not let my sons shyness be a open door for others to walk

> over him- He is going to school to learn end of subject. He is on

> the school bus for one thing only to get to school only.How can

> parents not know thier child is a bulley and not do something about

> it? Maybe im wrong maybe im right- I dont care. I just want " my "

> child to be able to look back in life and say he enjoyed learning

> and made lots of friends.I like seeing my sons smiling face in the

> morning and in the evening when he get home and befor ehe goes to

> bed. His only worries right now should be what cartoon is on TV

> after school and doing his best in his school work- I will make sure

> that is all he has to worry about.--blah-blah- i ramble too much.

> Tara

[Guest guest]

Dear Tara

I agree with Lori. People do lots of things to help protect their

children. No one here can judge, especially on an email list, what

another has done to protect her child. I personally am far more

concerned about parents who hear of their child being harmed and do

nothing. So, rest easy, And it is true that some children, if adults

don't intervene, only understand agression in return. Understanding

only agreesion is true amongst some predatory adults as well.

I do urge parents however, to visit the school principal and to tell

them x is occuring and ask them what their policy is about it, and to

make it clear that parents expect the school to take steps to see that

ALL children are completely safe at school and are not agressing on

others. If the principal give fluffy or wish-washy answers, you know

they have no training and are without a clue. If they run that " if we

do it for one we have to do it for all " nonsense, or that " this is not

a police state, " or " If we did that we would have no time to teach "

stuff, tell them they are over-reacting and not meeting the problem

head on.... that the issue IS teaching, it is about TEACHING children

adequate social skills to get along in the REAL world, and that you

will speak to the Board if necessary.

The parents have ALL the power to make things happen at school. Of

course you always conduct yourself with dignity and model the behavior

you are wanting them to teach the children. Being insistent is equal

to agreesive violence in most cases. You can get a thing done by

showing up and politely increasing pressure by being a 'broken

record'. For whomsoever needs it, please take this as encouragement.

Kids make errors. These are to be corrected. They are just young

souls. they deserve to be taught peaceful ways to get along. Someone

has to lead. No leadership, no learning.

This co