Re: MLD (Manual Lymphatic Drainage Massage)

[Guest guest]

i hate to break in here...but as a phd student in immunology i

couldn't help myself. please do not take this as a criticism of

mld...because i'm sure it's very good.

i'm assume that by lymph cells you are talking about " white blood

cells " which would travel to and from lymph nodes. these " lymph

cells " are not confined to the skin - although there are many immune

cells (such as gamma-delta t cells, dendritic cells, and nk cells)

which reside in the skin area. swelling would be induced by the

release of certain cytokines by immune cells in response to infection

or cellular injury - thus inducing an inflammatory response. these

" white blood cells " can also be found in tissues and blood

vessels...and can circulate through similar pathways.

although i believe that mld can help promote blood flow (and thus

reduce swelling) - i just wanted to clarify that not all " lymph cells "

reside in the skin. i also question the idea that all " lymph cells "

drain into the heart...most of your " white blood cells " actually

circulate back to your lymph nodes (also found in large amounts in

your spleen). lymph nodes are located in many locations in the body.

it can be said that blood flow in general leads back to the heart

(including circulation immune cells) - but these immune cells do not

generally reside there.

as a side note, my swelling was basically gone by day 6 with no mld -

and i believe this is because of lots of water and daily excercise

(i.e. light walks around 15-30 minutes). i also have been sleeping at

a 45 degree angle and used ice for the first week and a half.

although i'm sure there are many methods to reduce swelling.

-becky

[Guest guest]

Becky, that's fascinating. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

I actually called an MLD therapist here and had a chat a few weeks

ago, but ended up not following up on it due to money issues, time

constraints and maybe a little skepticism. I AM a believer in massage,

but prefer the deep, harder-the-better type! :-) I will probably do

some light self-massage on my face and neck after surgery with the

idea that it will promote blood flow and nerve healing. I will also

follow your example, Becky, of lots of water and light exercise.

Luna

> i hate to break in here...but as a phd student in immunology i

> couldn't help myself. please do not take this as a criticism of

> mld...because i'm sure it's very good.

>

> i'm assume that by lymph cells you are talking about " white blood

> cells " which would travel to and from lymph nodes. these " lymph

> cells " are not confined to the skin - although there are many immune

> cells (such as gamma-delta t cells, dendritic cells, and nk cells)

> which reside in the skin area. swelling would be induced by the

> release of certain cytokines by immune cells in response to infection

> or cellular injury - thus inducing an inflammatory response. these

> " white blood cells " can also be found in tissues and blood

> vessels...and can circulate through similar pathways.

>

> although i believe that mld can help promote blood flow (and thus

> reduce swelling) - i just wanted to clarify that not all " lymph cells "

> reside in the skin. i also question the idea that all " lymph cells "

> drain into the heart...most of your " white blood cells " actually

> circulate back to your lymph nodes (also found in large amounts in

> your spleen). lymph nodes are located in many locations in the body.

> it can be said that blood flow in general leads back to the heart

> (including circulation immune cells) - but these immune cells do not

> generally reside there.

>

> as a side note, my swelling was basically gone by day 6 with no mld -

> and i believe this is because of lots of water and daily excercise

> (i.e. light walks around 15-30 minutes). i also have been sleeping at

> a 45 degree angle and used ice for the first week and a half.

> although i'm sure there are many methods to reduce swelling.

>

> -becky

[Guest guest]

Wow!

Don't ever hate to break in, with that kind of knowledge... (bows in

respect!)

But I think what this kind of massage works on is the lymphatic

system, which I'm guessing is the drainage system connected through

the tissues from the nodes. (Is there such?)

I know that I had one session of mild MLD on my face, when I

developed shingles post-op, and was told for about a week afterward

that my skin looked gorgeous. Dunno that it did a thing for the

shingles, which postponed the end of my ortho treatment for a whole

month. (>:~<!)

I also know that one of our local hospitals is now touting a

therapist trained in mld because it has been soooo helpful for women

who have had mastectomies, in dealing with the swelling associated

with removal of lymph nodes. (Isn't lymph clear fluid that

circulates throughout the body? I never heard about the white cells,

and you clearly know a heckuva lot more about all this than do I.)

Isn't the spread of the lymph through the body tissues, in other

systems than through the blood vessels, one reason that lymphatic

cancer is, um, sooo scary? (We just lost a good friend to what was

apparently a return of prostate cancer to the lymphatic system, and

especially the part near the spine.)

Out of ignorance, and hoping to go into the light of education...

And what worked for you seems to me to be generaly keyed into docs'

recommendations, although mine wanted ice for the first 48 hours,

and heat, thereafter...

Cammie

> i hate to break in here...but as a phd student in immunology i

> couldn't help myself. please do not take this as a criticism of

> mld...because i'm sure it's very good.

>

> i'm assume that by lymph cells you are talking about " white blood

> cells " which would travel to and from lymph nodes. these " lymph

> cells " are not confined to the skin - although there are many

immune

> cells (such as gamma-delta t cells, dendritic cells, and nk cells)

> which reside in the skin area. swelling would be induced by the

> release of certain cytokines by immune cells in response to

infection

> or cellular injury - thus inducing an inflammatory response. these

> " white blood cells " can also be found in tissues and blood

> vessels...and can circulate through similar pathways.

>

> although i believe that mld can help promote blood flow (and thus

> reduce swelling) - i just wanted to clarify that not all " lymph

cells "

> reside in the skin. i also question the idea that all " lymph

cells "

> drain into the heart...most of your " white blood cells " actually

> circulate back to your lymph nodes (also found in large amounts in

> your spleen). lymph nodes are located in many locations in the

body.

> it can be said that blood flow in general leads back to the heart

> (including circulation immune cells) - but these immune cells do

not

> generally reside there.

>

> as a side note, my swelling was basically gone by day 6 with no

mld -

> and i believe this is because of lots of water and daily excercise

> (i.e. light walks around 15-30 minutes). i also have been

sleeping at

> a 45 degree angle and used ice for the first week and a half.

> although i'm sure there are many methods to reduce swelling.

>

> -becky

[Guest guest]

Good description, although it's not necessarily true that all RMTs

are trained in MLD therapy - mine wasn't, although as I mentioned in

my last post, mine referred me to an excellent physiotherapist/MLD

therapist. Asking about their qualifications is a good idea.

> Hi everyone (especially Joanne who asked about this )

>

> MLD is a widely practised method of massage, which is used to

reduce

> swelling in the body. I am not a registered massage therapist, but

> my best friend is. Lucky for me! Anyway, this is what she says:

>

> The vascular system only manages 80% of the body's fluids as

blood.

> The rest is managed and cleaned by the lymphatic system. Lymphatic

> fluid is held in the lymph cells, which are found at the the skin

> level. All of the Lymph drains into the heart.

>

> So, because it is at the skin level, the massage must be very

light.

> The therapist will use such a light touch that the muscles are not

> at all affected. This makes it very safe (and common) for use

after

> injury or surgery.

>

> The only caution is that there are some conditions where MLD is

> contraindicated. Problems with the heart, kidney, and liver can be

> comprimised by MLD because the massage physically forces a faster

> drainage and clearance through these organ systems.

>

> MLD for the face and neck is done starting by opening the drains

in

> the neck, followede by moving up the face and lightly coaxing the

> fluid towards the drainage points (above your clavical). MLD for

> swelling below the heart is done similarly only the direction is

up

> (towards the heart).

>

> I have had a lot of success with this surgery, I think, partly

> because of MLD. I have very little swelling and bruising today,

> which is day 8. MLD is a technique that all RMT's and

> physiotherapists are trained to do. Some even specialize in it.

> Also, it is likely that someone at the hospital will know how to

do

> it. Check first and make sure thay are qualified.

>

> One last thing is that MLD is a program. Doing it once will help

for

> that day, but, you need to keep doing it until the tissues begin

to

> heal. Ice is still a must do.

>

> Good luck everyone, and sorry for the novel

>

> Fay