Re: Sugar Lovers Unite!

[Guest guest]

Hi -

Let me clarify my post on sugar. It does NOT reflect a personal opinion.

What the information reflects is Dr. Rabkin's experience with his patients.

Those who limited sugar enjoyed an excess weight loss of 20% better than

those who did not limit sugar to once or twice a month.

Again, what I " think " or whatever anyone else " thinks " does not make much

difference. These doctors follow us for many reasons, one of which is to

gain data. I think that we serve ourselves well to take advantage from

information that they provide for us.

The exercise is yet another factor he presented, showing that a 12% increase

in excess weight loss was obtained by those exercising at least three times

per week.

Best-

Nick in Sage

(who is going to sin no more than once or twice a month for the balance of

the six month window - and maybe even is going to get a bit more exercise .

.. . )

Sugar Lovers Unite!

> Hi. Yeah, it's I again. I know, but there's not much else to do

> except clean the house, and if I do that, then my family will figure

> out what a relatively easy recovery I'm having after laparoscopic

> surgery. Then, it'll be all over. No more meals cooked for me; no

> more house cleaning; no more people feeling sorry for me. So what do

> I do to pass the time? I write long-winded messages to post on this

> board.

>

> I read Nick's message about how little to no sugar intake for the

> first six months after surgery improves weight loss during that peak

> period of time. How about this, though: remember Optifast and other

> similar diets? Remember how when you started to eat normally your

> body freaked out and put on tons of weight? Moreover, you were so

> excited to eat that you probably overate on top of it all? Well, I

> will venture to say that this same thing could happen if you don't

> allow sugar/refined carbs in your diet. Instead, why not put

> the " first six months " emphasis on exercise, which is one of the best

> possible things that you can do for your body for the rest of your

> life? Diet/restrictive mentalities messed us up before; let's not do

> it again!

>

> What do you think?

>

> Best,

>

>

> Dr. Gagner, NYC

> lap BPD/DS

> 11-20-01

> highest weight: 309

> surgery weight: 293

> current weight: 272

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi. Yeah, it's I again. I know, but there's not much else to do

> except clean the house, and if I do that, then my family will

figure out what a relatively easy recovery I'm having after

laparoscopic surgery. Then, it'll be all over. No more meals cooked

for me; no more house cleaning; no more people feeling sorry for me.

So what do I do to pass the time? I write long-winded messages to

post on this board.

>

>

(#1 daughter - the one I love the best - sorry Theresa, #2

daughter) - Have you forgotten Mommy reads this stuff too! So now I

ask you, what are YOU cooking for dinner tonight?

By-the-way everyone, I had to empty the puke bucket last night after

her bout with the white bread. And will someone please tell her to

quit trying to make me take a " whiff of her air " . My only revenge is

to make her laugh so her belly hurts (a tiny bit).

Kathleen M.

surgery date 12/17, Dr. Gagner

[Guest guest]

I am in agreement about absolute restriction being well--too

restrictive. I have adopted the stance of AJ and . Keep it

simple. Concentrate on protein--and the vitamins, then there is

little room for much more.

Some folks also are taking the stance that all carbs are bad. You

need carbs for energy--but it shouldn't be in simple refined sugars

like soda or candy bars----but you need veggies, and some grains...

even your Atkins-or Carb Addict's diets tell you that.

I have found whenever you say absolutely no to something--it comes up

to bite you in the butt. Last night we went to the movies--I had

popcorn with extra buttter--and probably about 3 oz of soda--I lost

3#'s this am. We go to the movies about 2 times a month--whoopie!!!

That isn't going to hold me up in the long run!

Pammi

> Hi. Yeah, it's I again. I know, but there's not much else to do

> except clean the house, and if I do that, then my family will

figure

> out what a relatively easy recovery I'm having after laparoscopic

> surgery. Then, it'll be all over. No more meals cooked for me; no

> more house cleaning; no more people feeling sorry for me. So what

do

> I do to pass the time? I write long-winded messages to post on

this

> board.

>

> I read Nick's message about how little to no sugar intake for the

> first six months after surgery improves weight loss during that

peak

> period of time. How about this, though: remember Optifast and

other

> similar diets? Remember how when you started to eat normally your

> body freaked out and put on tons of weight? Moreover, you were so

> excited to eat that you probably overate on top of it all? Well, I

> will venture to say that this same thing could happen if you don't

> allow sugar/refined carbs in your diet. Instead, why not put

> the " first six months " emphasis on exercise, which is one of the

best

> possible things that you can do for your body for the rest of your

> life? Diet/restrictive mentalities messed us up before; let's not

do

> it again!

>

> What do you think?

>

> Best,

>

>

> Dr. Gagner, NYC

> lap BPD/DS

> 11-20-01

> highest weight: 309

> surgery weight: 293

> current weight: 272

[Guest guest]

At 4:11 PM +0000 12/7/01, mkfrilot wrote:

>...I read Nick's message about how little to no sugar intake for the

>first six months after surgery improves weight loss during that peak

>period of time. How about this, though: remember Optifast

Damn, do I remember OptiFast!

>... Remember how when you started to eat normally your

>body freaked out and put on tons of weight?

Thanks for reminding me of that. 'cuz I've been on a lousy 3-weeks

of plateau, even gained back 2-3 lbs. I am eating no more than

usual--which isn't a lot, yet heavily into protein--and I have been

exercising religiously every other day (1/2-hour on the recumbent

bike, increasing the tension setting every five minutes, followed by

about 20 minutes of weight training). I was even thinking of doing a

month on old OptiFast packets left over from the mid-80's, but your

note convinces me that I have to flagellate myself in more productive

ways.

>... Well, I will venture to say that this same thing could happen

>if you don't

>allow sugar/refined carbs in your diet. Instead, why not put

>the " first six months " emphasis on exercise, which is one of the best

>possible things that you can do for your body for the rest of your

>life?

From your lips to the Fat-Godess' ears, . I exercise; she

shows no mercy.

>Diet/restrictive mentalities messed us up before; let's not do

>it again!

>

>What do you think?

I hope you're right!

--Steve

--

[Guest guest]

Perhaps we should rename this thread " Sugar Lovers, let's weigh 20% of our

excess weight more than people who restrict sugar to once or twice a month. "

C'mon, folks, there's just a bit of denial going on here. Let me reiterate:

This is not PHILOSOPHY! We're talking about one of the more experienced lap

DS surgeon's clinical findings, not what we wish was true.

Note that Rabkin's data doesn't refer to totally eliminating sugar, rather

limiting it to twice a month. It also doesn't talk about complex

carbohydrates; it relates only to sugar.

We talk about how diets have failed us in the past and translate that into

why we should be able to eat sugars now. It has never been the diets that

have failed us in the past. We have all lost humongous amounts of weight on

diets.

What has failed us is the inability to keep that weight off. That is, I

would posit, due to the fact that we cannot deal with forever banishing a

favorite food from our lives.

Personally, I have always been able to toe the mark on a particular eating

regimen right up to the time that I realize that I am missing a huge part of

my life and that, in order to maintain my new and lower weight, I have to

eat that way forever. The forever part is where I have always begun to have

problems. The diet goes steadily south from that point.

This research doesn't talk about " forever. " It only relates to the first

six months. After that, you can reintroduce those sweet favorites and the

surgery will do just what we want it to do - keep the weight off. If, at

that time, we are down an additional 20% of our weight, we won't have to

take up quite so much bandwidth with those " Surgery isn't working for me

because I've only lost XX Lbs. " posts.

Best-

Nick - who has put those little tiny Hershey bars into the freezer to be

joyfully removed once or twice a month until the end of February.

[Guest guest]

Whispers Mom,

I understand that you have to Pretenday to the daughteray...grins.

As far as the bucket goes, I have hit the wall with mine 3 times now,

and everytime it was smashed potatoes. The evil little buggers.

Maybe I will get up courage next month but as for now, they are

horrible, and even worse coming up when you tried to keep em down

with berry flavored maalox! Shrieks

Hugs,

#2 Daughter and #2 Theresa!

Who feels that her scale is the evil reincarnation of her 5th grade

PE teacher who told her in front of the class that unless she stopped

being a pig, she would never learn how to run! May she burn in hell!

> >

> (#1 daughter - the one I love the best - sorry Theresa, #2

> daughter) - Have you forgotten Mommy reads this stuff too! So now

I

> ask you, what are YOU cooking for dinner tonight?

>

> By-the-way everyone, I had to empty the puke bucket last night

after

> her bout with the white bread. And will someone please tell her to

> quit trying to make me take a " whiff of her air " . My only revenge

is

> to make her laugh so her belly hurts (a tiny bit).

>

> Kathleen M.

> surgery date 12/17, Dr. Gagner

[Guest guest]

Just as an FYI, it takes the body from 3 to 5 days to reflect weight

loss or gain. That means if last night you had a hot fudge sundae and

today the scale didn't move, it doesn't matter. It will move unless

you deficit enough over the next couple of days to compensate.

When you see an immediate move overnight from the scale, its usually

a water swing for the short term or the cumulative weight loss from

the prior couple of days.

As for moderation...I am of the philosophy of everything in

moderation, including moderation. The bottom line is, the more sweets

you eat, the less weight you will lose. Perhaps not in the short

term, but in the long term. I do know that for myself, binging begets

binging. Once I open the flood gates, there's no stopping me.

However, total abstinence, really really guarantees a binge on my

part.

I don't believe in dieting but I do believe in losing 100% of my

excess weight. I don't want to get stuck along the way and say if I

had showed a little restraint, I might have made my goal. I will

also point out that I am only 3 weeks out and eating is disgusting to

me...so all bets are off by next week!

Laughing,

Theresa

Who sees a gaping jaw whenever she walks by her scale and is

wondering if it is possessed?

> > Hi. Yeah, it's I again. I know, but there's not much else to do

> > except clean the house, and if I do that, then my family will

> figure

> > out what a relatively easy recovery I'm having after laparoscopic

> > surgery. Then, it'll be all over. No more meals cooked for me;

no

> > more house cleaning; no more people feeling sorry for me. So

what

> do

> > I do to pass the time? I write long-winded messages to post on

> this

> > board.

> >

> > I read Nick's message about how little to no sugar intake for the

> > first six months after surgery improves weight loss during that

> peak

> > period of time. How about this, though: remember Optifast and

> other

> > similar diets? Remember how when you started to eat normally

your

> > body freaked out and put on tons of weight? Moreover, you were

so

> > excited to eat that you probably overate on top of it all? Well,

I

> > will venture to say that this same thing could happen if you

don't

> > allow sugar/refined carbs in your diet. Instead, why not put

> > the " first six months " emphasis on exercise, which is one of the

> best

> > possible things that you can do for your body for the rest of

your

> > life? Diet/restrictive mentalities messed us up before; let's

not

> do

> > it again!

> >

> > What do you think?

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

> > Dr. Gagner, NYC

> > lap BPD/DS

> > 11-20-01

> > highest weight: 309

> > surgery weight: 293

> > current weight: 272

[Guest guest]

Hi, Nick!

Of course I know that your post is not a personal opinion. Sorry I

didn't make that clear.

Now, I guess we're getting back to that old argument about

doctors' experience vs. laymens' anecdotal evidence. First off, let

me say that I believe that there are gray areas of truth around

doctors' " experience " AND laymens' anecdotal evidence. That is, both

can be right and both can be wrong. For instance, Dr.

Hess's " advice " in his patient binder says that D/S patients should

take Cal Apatite (microcrystalline hydroxyapatite) because it is

absorbed 20% better than other forms of calcium. This has never been

substantiated and can be considered speculation AT BEST. (See my

posting titled " a better calcium article " for scientific PROOF.)

And, sometimes, what educated people THINK does make a difference and

could be just as accurate as what an MD " thinks. "

All of this is to say that I'd need to see a scientific study (or

studies) that shows that Rabkin's opinion is correct. Until then,

what I " think " could be just as valid (well, theoretically speaking)

as what he " thinks. "

Best,

> Hi -

>

> Let me clarify my post on sugar. It does NOT reflect a personal

opinion.

> What the information reflects is Dr. Rabkin's experience with his

patients.

> Those who limited sugar enjoyed an excess weight loss of 20% better

than

> those who did not limit sugar to once or twice a month.

>

> Again, what I " think " or whatever anyone else " thinks " does not

make much

> difference. These doctors follow us for many reasons, one of which

is to

> gain data. I think that we serve ourselves well to take advantage

from

> information that they provide for us.

>

> The exercise is yet another factor he presented, showing that a 12%

increase

> in excess weight loss was obtained by those exercising at least

three times

> per week.

>

> Best-

>

> Nick in Sage

> (who is going to sin no more than once or twice a month for the

balance of

> the six month window - and maybe even is going to get a bit more

exercise .

> . . )

>

>

> Sugar Lovers Unite!

>

>

> > Hi. Yeah, it's I again. I know, but there's not much else to do

> > except clean the house, and if I do that, then my family will

figure

> > out what a relatively easy recovery I'm having after laparoscopic

> > surgery. Then, it'll be all over. No more meals cooked for me;

no

> > more house cleaning; no more people feeling sorry for me. So

what do

> > I do to pass the time? I write long-winded messages to post on

this

> > board.

> >

> > I read Nick's message about how little to no sugar intake for the

> > first six months after surgery improves weight loss during that

peak

> > period of time. How about this, though: remember Optifast and

other

> > similar diets? Remember how when you started to eat normally your

> > body freaked out and put on tons of weight? Moreover, you were so

> > excited to eat that you probably overate on top of it all? Well,

I

> > will venture to say that this same thing could happen if you don't

> > allow sugar/refined carbs in your diet. Instead, why not put

> > the " first six months " emphasis on exercise, which is one of the

best

> > possible things that you can do for your body for the rest of your

> > life? Diet/restrictive mentalities messed us up before; let's

not do

> > it again!

> >

> > What do you think?

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

> > Dr. Gagner, NYC

> > lap BPD/DS

> > 11-20-01

> > highest weight: 309

> > surgery weight: 293

> > current weight: 272

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

----

> >

[Guest guest]

<hear Homer Simpson's very loud DOOOOOOO!>

> > Hi. Yeah, it's I again. I know, but there's not much else to do

> > except clean the house, and if I do that, then my family will

> figure out what a relatively easy recovery I'm having after

> laparoscopic surgery. Then, it'll be all over. No more meals

cooked

> for me; no more house cleaning; no more people feeling sorry for

me.

> So what do I do to pass the time? I write long-winded messages to

> post on this board.

> >

> >

> (#1 daughter - the one I love the best - sorry Theresa, #2

> daughter) - Have you forgotten Mommy reads this stuff too! So now

I

> ask you, what are YOU cooking for dinner tonight?

>

> By-the-way everyone, I had to empty the puke bucket last night

after

> her bout with the white bread. And will someone please tell her to

> quit trying to make me take a " whiff of her air " . My only revenge

is

> to make her laugh so her belly hurts (a tiny bit).

>

> Kathleen M.

> surgery date 12/17, Dr. Gagner

[Guest guest]

Allow me to preface my remarks with something that Dianne mentioned

to all of us: " I think is right. "

OK, then. Working on that premise, don't you DARE do that Optifast

crap. It is evil, wicked, and baaaaad! Listen to and

Judie: go eat a little garbage.

Second: have you tried doing some weight-bearing exercise? Yeah,

the recumbent bike is good for your knees and all that, but can you

do some fast walking now? I'm a firm believer in weight-bearing

exercise: swimming, etc. just don't cut the mustard for you or your

healthy bones (Nick, this is based on scientific fact!)

Love to you,

> >...I read Nick's message about how little to no sugar intake for

the

> >first six months after surgery improves weight loss during that

peak

> >period of time. How about this, though: remember Optifast

>

> Damn, do I remember OptiFast!

>

> >... Remember how when you started to eat normally your

> >body freaked out and put on tons of weight?

>

> Thanks for reminding me of that. 'cuz I've been on a lousy 3-weeks

> of plateau, even gained back 2-3 lbs. I am eating no more than

> usual--which isn't a lot, yet heavily into protein--and I have been

> exercising religiously every other day (1/2-hour on the recumbent

> bike, increasing the tension setting every five minutes, followed

by

> about 20 minutes of weight training). I was even thinking of doing

a

> month on old OptiFast packets left over from the mid-80's, but your

> note convinces me that I have to flagellate myself in more

productive

> ways.

>

> >... Well, I will venture to say that this same thing could happen

> >if you don't

> >allow sugar/refined carbs in your diet. Instead, why not put

> >the " first six months " emphasis on exercise, which is one of the

best

> >possible things that you can do for your body for the rest of your

> >life?

>

> From your lips to the Fat-Godess' ears, . I exercise; she

> shows no mercy.

>

> >Diet/restrictive mentalities messed us up before; let's not do

> >it again!

> >

> >What do you think?

>

> I hope you're right!

>

> --Steve

> --

[Guest guest]

> Allow me to preface my remarks with something that Dianne mentioned

> to all of us: " I think is right. "

>

EEEE GADS, Guys. If you tell she's right about anything,

there will be no living with her. How about, " COULD be

right " or " MIGHT be right " . (Please note: she just

returned from Christmas shopping, but is unable to cook dinner.)

Kathleen M.

pre-op, Dr. Gagner 12/17

[Guest guest]

I agree with emphasis on exercise and changing

the diet mentality, even if the results are the

same as restricting a diet, sometimes calling a

TIGER a kitten is all the change that is needed.

LennyB

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Just FYI. Delphine (Rabkin's former RN) presented this information

during one of the montly meetings this past summer/fall.

Unfortunately, it is not a published journal article as of yet, but it was

presented at the summer conference and is being worked into an

article for submission.

The information, as reported by Nick, is not what anybody " thinks " ,

but rather what is reflected from the data collected on Rabkin's

patients. Granted, one can infer a lot from data, but it still stands

that patients who avoided sugar had a 20% greater EWL than those

who didn't avoid it and patients who exercised 3x+/wk had a 12%

greater EWL than those who didn't. That's the data, not what anybody

" thinks. "

Sugar is not evil, but if we can avoid it during the weight loss

window, we maximize the weight loss. It doesn't mean we can't ever

have sugar again, but the opportunity for weight loss is limited and there

are ways to take advantage of that time. Sugar-avoidance and exercise

are two of them.

Cheers,

p.s. In the same study, it was also reported that patients who

followed a low-fat diet did NOT show substantial improvements in

excess weight loss. This is most likely because low-fat foods usually

compensate for lack of flavor by adding (ka-ching!) sugar!

> All of this is to say that I'd need to see a scientific study (or

> studies) that shows that Rabkin's opinion is correct. Until then,

> what I " think " could be just as valid (well, theoretically

speaking)

> as what he " thinks. "

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathleen -

If I were to say that Kathleen is absolutely wrong, that would neutralize

the situation, right? Okay, here goes, Kathleen is absolutely wrong!

Everything should be okay now. Let me know if you have any problems with

her.

Best-

Nick

Re: Sugar Lovers Unite!

>

> > Allow me to preface my remarks with something that Dianne mentioned

> > to all of us: " I think is right. "

> >

>

> EEEE GADS, Guys. If you tell she's right about anything,

> there will be no living with her. How about, " COULD be

> right " or " MIGHT be right " . (Please note: she just

> returned from Christmas shopping, but is unable to cook dinner.)

>

> Kathleen M.

> pre-op, Dr. Gagner 12/17

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, .

The only questions I would have would be:

Did patients formally participate in this " study? "

How many patients participated in it?

Was there a control group?

What constitutes " avoided sugar? " (that could mean ANYTHING)

How was this " avoided sugar " tracked and verified?

What constitutes " exercise? "

Best,

> > All of this is to say that I'd need to see a scientific study (or

> > studies) that shows that Rabkin's opinion is correct. Until

then,

> > what I " think " could be just as valid (well, theoretically

> speaking)

> > as what he " thinks. "

[Guest guest]

> This research doesn't talk about " forever. " It only relates to the

first

> six months. After that, you can reintroduce those sweet favorites

and the

> surgery will do just what we want it to do - keep the weight off.

If, at

> that time, we are down an additional 20% of our weight, we won't have to

> take up quite so much bandwidth with those " Surgery isn't working for me

> because I've only lost XX Lbs. " posts.

But.. but... but....

ahhhh, foot.

Liane

::::off in search of another boot::::::

(whining has been my only outlet this week.. 44 hours by thursday

night & on call this weekend..)

[Guest guest]

- hello!

This was presented to Rabkin's peers. You are you spending too much time

second guessing his methodology. Do you seriously think that Dr. Rabkin

would pull this data out of some notion in his head and get away with it

when he presents it to the ASBS?

Sugar will cause you to lose 20% less of your excess weight in the first six

months post-op. That is the inescapable bottom line.

There are some valid questions, though, like how much sugar at a time is he

talking about? Does it mean that you can have a teaspoon of sugar in your

coffee once or twice a month or does it mean that you can eat an entire

rich, tasty chocolate cake twice a month? Does it mean that you cannot have

any sugar at all between the maximum of two sugar feasts? Is he only

talking about sugar? What about others of the more simple carbos, like

pasta?

So, it is fair to say that the information provided is incomplete. It is,

however, still an important consideration for those who can temporarily

forego that éclair for that first six months and then relapse into their

original state of sin - a status which I am committed to rejoin as soon as

possible.

Best -

Nick - who is only missing his Hershey bars a little bit.

PS -

Be good to your Mom!

Re: Sugar Lovers Unite!

> Thanks, .

>

> The only questions I would have would be:

>

> Did patients formally participate in this " study? "

> How many patients participated in it?

> Was there a control group?

> What constitutes " avoided sugar? " (that could mean ANYTHING)

> How was this " avoided sugar " tracked and verified?

> What constitutes " exercise? "

>

> Best,

>

>

>

> > > All of this is to say that I'd need to see a scientific study (or

> > > studies) that shows that Rabkin's opinion is correct. Until

> then,

> > > what I " think " could be just as valid (well, theoretically

> > speaking)

> > > as what he " thinks. "

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>