Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Kaci, When you say she added some angle to the bar, do you mean the bar was not bent originally or that she increased the bend (which would increase his dorsiflexion)? Which bar do you have, red or gold? I can't remember if is bilateral, but the bar should have been bent originally to keep his feet at approximately 10-15 degrees of dorsiflexion. Usually when kids can get this kind of leverage to pull their foot out it is because the bar is still too short. Do you have them bolt to bolt as wide as his shoulders or back of heel to back of heel as wide as his shoulders? If it is bolt to bolt, you can go wider, my son actually likes his a tiny bit wider than his shoulders and I think the vast majority of kids are the most comfortable with a heel to heel measurement. Tell me about the sore on the top of the foot when the strap is in the 9th hole. Is it just a red mark or is it an actual sore? A lot of kids have a red mark on their instep from the strap of the markells, it just stays there, doesn't get worse, doesn't get better. Just stays there until they are out of the shoes for good and then it gradually fades away. My guess is that if you widen the bar more and go with the 9th hole that should keep him in it, he may cry because he's frustrated that he can no longer get his foot out, and he may get red marks on the instep (watch this and put a bandaid on if it starts to look more sore, it should resolve to just be a red mark as he gets the shoes more broken in and the straps stretch a little). As for the bigger shoe, it depends on whether or not he has truly outgrown these. I can't say that I remember a child actually getting out of their shoes because they were too small, although I'm sure it's possible; they might hurt or cause sores if they are too small though. How do you think they are fitting him? Are his toes past the end of the shoe at all? If his toes are not at all over the end of the shoes I would think that a larger size would be too big and he would be able to get out of them even easier. Oh, and one more thing, if you really do need a bigger size they should be able to get you a script and get the shoes within a few days, not make you wait until the 31st, that's just nonsense. Gimme a little feedback on what I've said here and we can work from there Kaci, good luck! > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of his > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. Ponseti > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to shoulder > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his feet > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last Thursday... > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever surface he > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten the > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore on > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, but it > takes a little longer. > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every 15- > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist yesterday > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told us > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she made > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May 31st, > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is swill > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end here, > but trying very hard to comply. > > Thanks, > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 , We have the red bar. There was originally a small bend at each end of the bar, and the middle was bent also. We may have " messed up " because when we extended the bar length we took that middle bend out (had to or we couldn't adjust the length, and we thought the small bend on the end was for the dorsiflexion). She made the small bend on the end bigger yesterday. He is bilateral. She actually made the bar shorter yesterday, she measures bolt to bolt, we had it set based on heel to heel...so I think either way will get out of it. Before she adjusted it, even with it buckled in the 9th hole, he was getting out of it (although not as often...I would say hourly instead of every 15 min). As far as the sore, it is redder than it has ever been (we've always had some redness in this area) and one spot looks like the skin is rubbing badly - it isn't a sore yet, but I'm afraid it will become one. I don't think the shoes seem too small - his toes are right at the end but not over at all. I know we can call the doctor for the script and get the shoes quickly if we need to, it's just his follow up is set for the 31st. If it seems that getting new shoes will help, we will do it next week - no point in making me crazy if it's a simply fix, I just have a hard time believing that's the problem. It sounds like you're saying I might just need to suck it up and let him fuss, but I feel like it is a pain cry, not a frustrated cry. Once he goes to sleep he keeps the shoes on just fine, until he wakes up, but if we have it in the 9th hole he just cries and cries, even when asleep. I remember when we first got the shoes he cried but it was nothing like this.... Thanks, Kaci > > > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of his > > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. Ponseti > > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to shoulder > > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his feet > > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last Thursday... > > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever surface he > > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then > > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that > > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten the > > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore on > > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, but it > > takes a little longer. > > > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every 15- > > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th > > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist yesterday > > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told us > > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she made > > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May 31st, > > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is swill > > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end here, > > but trying very hard to comply. > > > > Thanks, > > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Kaci, You've got me kind of stumped. Are you sure the bar was wide enough? Really heel to heel outside edge of shoulder to outside edge of shoulder? (Not questioning you, just thinking outloud here.) I always would err on the longer side, it seems that more kids are comfortable with longer. I would not say just suck it up because mama knows when baby is crying what kind of cry it is. On the bar, I don't think you messed it up, I don't know why they bend those red bars in the middle, it defeats the purpose of having the adjustable bar. They should be bent up on the ends - let's see, I think I have a description of this somewhere... " It has a fairly steep bend (maybe as much as 25 degrees, I've never checked) at each end under the shoes. This is to keep the shoes up off the bar (off set them, as it were). Then they level out a bit so that the feet are dorsiflexed about 10 degrees. " Oh, what about the straps, are they in the bottom slots on both sides of the shoes? And did you slit the tongue keeper? Both of these tips are good for helping to keep kids in the shoes. When you put the shoes on and tighten them to the 8th hole, if you pull on the heel of the shoe does his foot slip at all? Are you seeing his toes moving back in the shoe at all as he is wearing it (during the hour that he has it on before he manages to kick it off, that is)? : ) If his feet are slipping at all you've got to get his foot down deeper in the heel pocket and then tighten that strap tight tight tight! I know you know all of this already but I'm just thinkin' outloud again, lol. Have you tried putting the shoes on and tightening them to the 9th hole, lacing up the shoes as tight as you can (with the tongue keeper slot cut so the tongue sits low on the foot) and then loosen to the 8th hole? (not that this would help because he is getting out either way...but I guess you'd try anything at this point...hmmm...) I really don't think a bigger size shoe is the answer here. I could be wrong but I just don't see it. Kaci, I'm sorry I'm not much help here, I just can't think of anything else at the moment. Hopefully someone else will have some other ideas. Well, I guess the other option is to try the PM's....you know how to do get ahold of them if you want to try that? 1-800-PONSETI : ) > > > > > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of > his > > > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > > > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. > Ponseti > > > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to > shoulder > > > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his > feet > > > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last > Thursday... > > > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > > > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever > surface he > > > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then > > > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that > > > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten > the > > > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore > on > > > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, > but it > > > takes a little longer. > > > > > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every > 15- > > > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th > > > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist > yesterday > > > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told > us > > > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she > made > > > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May > 31st, > > > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is > swill > > > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > > > > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > > > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end > here, > > > but trying very hard to comply. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Kaci, sorry about that, it's 1-877-PONSETI allison > > > > > > > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of > > his > > > > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > > > > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. > > Ponseti > > > > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to > > shoulder > > > > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his > > feet > > > > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last > > Thursday... > > > > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > > > > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever > > surface he > > > > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then > > > > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that > > > > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten > > the > > > > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore > > on > > > > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, > > but it > > > > takes a little longer. > > > > > > > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every > > 15- > > > > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th > > > > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist > > yesterday > > > > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told > > us > > > > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she > > made > > > > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May > > 31st, > > > > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is > > swill > > > > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > > > > > > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > > > > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end > > here, > > > > but trying very hard to comply. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 I am sure the bar was about 1/2 " wider than his shoulders, from heel to heel - it was the first thing I checked when he started kicking out of them again. We've got the tongue keeper slit, I've tried the laces in all sorts of configurations...skipping top hole, skipping bottom hole, laced from top to bottom, and bottom to top. We moved the strap to the lower hole on the buckle side and he still gets out. Can't move the other side because it is stitched down. I am pretty sure the heel is where it should be. Our orthotist actually drilled a hole in the back when we got the shoes - I look and can usually feel by putting my pinky finger at the hole. My fingernail touches his heel right away through the hole. I wondered about the atypical feet, not sure how to tell that, but I would have thought Dr. Ponseti would have commented on that? But then again, he's a busy man so maybe he didn't notice since I wasn't asking that question. Our ortho is trying to work with the orthotics co to order the PM's. I am hoping he will tell us at our follow up that they have worked out the details. Or maybe we will volunteer to be his guinea pig Thanks for the suggestions...keep 'em coming if you have any more thoughts! Kaci > > > > > > > > > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of > > > his > > > > > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > > > > > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. > > > Ponseti > > > > > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to > > > shoulder > > > > > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his > > > feet > > > > > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last > > > Thursday... > > > > > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > > > > > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever > > > surface he > > > > > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then > > > > > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that > > > > > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten > > > the > > > > > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore > > > on > > > > > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, > > > but it > > > > > takes a little longer. > > > > > > > > > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every > > > 15- > > > > > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th > > > > > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist > > > yesterday > > > > > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told > > > us > > > > > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she > > > made > > > > > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May > > > 31st, > > > > > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is > > > swill > > > > > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > > > > > > > > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > > > > > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end > > > here, > > > > > but trying very hard to comply. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 As luck would have it I just had to put a shoe on. I checked the heel very carefully and cannot slide it immediately after I put it in. I checked the other foot and can move it a little (it has been in the shoe for about 4 hours). I can see just a tiny amount of the sole where his heel curves, but not much at all. He is already " working it " so I'll check in about 30 minutes and see how much it has changed. I know if I had his feet in there right, it wouldn't change, but I can't for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong. ARGH! Kaci > > what about right after you get him all buckled in and laced? Does > the heel move at all when you pull on the shoes (at the heel, try to > pull him out). > > If it moves, that's what you need to look at. Can you see under his > heel to the sole of the shoe through the hole? What you're looking > for is not necessarily that the heel is back, so much as is the > foot/sole flat on the bottom of the shoe? no gaps other than right > at the back where the rounded part of the heel is. Depending on how > freshly corrected he is, the round part of the heel may be up > further, yet it will drop flatter in the back over time. Initially > though, it does not exactly sit right in the back/bottom of the > shoes. It can take weeks or a couple/few months for it to drop fully. > > Kori > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Kaci, This probably is not going to be very helpful...but here are a couple of suggestions based largely on our own experience. Do you think keeps working himself out of the shoes just because he has figured out that he can? Or do you think he's trying hard to get them off because they are uncomfortable? How irritating to be putting the FAB back on him all day long--I'd be going nuts just about now! The only time we have any trouble with Jonah in the FAB is when the bar becomes too short and/or his shoes get too small. When this happens, he'll be restless at night and I'll hear him working his legs up and down in the brace until he gets a foot out. I think that the bar being on the short side gives him more leverage. As for the shoes, I just think they get to be too tight (he's outgrown them in width before he outgrows them in length every time) and uncomfortable and he wants them off. Of course now he can just tell us that they are too tight; vocabulary is a huge help! You've tried a lot of different things, I know. One more thing to try is to get the strap nice and tight (9th hole, I think you said) and lace them up as snug as you possibly can, tie them and then loosen the strap by one hole. You can also switch out the laces that came with the shoes with some that are less slick if you are having trouble getting the shoe laced tightly. I do find it odd that the strap is stitched so that you cannot put it through the lower slot on the one side. Hopefully, something helps soon. Naomi The Family, North Coast of California Naomi Hannah(2/21/1) Jonah(6/20/3, corrected BCF, FAB 12-14/7) nokitty00 wrote: Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of his shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. Ponseti said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to shoulder width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his feet are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last Thursday... started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever surface he can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten the strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore on his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, but it takes a little longer. We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every 15- 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist yesterday & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told us that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she made should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May 31st, then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is swill getting out of the shoes constantly! In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end here, but trying very hard to comply. Thanks, Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 My husband & I are double-teaming again to get the shoes on, and he actually kept them on for 24 hours - we were afraid to take them off last night at his normal time since he had kept them on so good...we weren't sure we would get them on that good again. kicked out again this morning so we gave him half an hour of free time then. (Hoping this doesn't teach him that kicking out = free time!) His right foot (the bigger problem) was very red and puffy looking, and there was one spot that was purple but did not seem to be a sore, just off color. I think it's because he had it on there good & tight and he was trying to wiggle out. Kori, we are trying to make sure we get the heel down in there really good before we tighten them down...I think that's what helped him stay in them so long yesterday. Thanks very much for the help, I'll keep y'all posted! I am still waiting on insurance re:PM's, it sounds like they may still be a better option for our sanity and avoiding relapse. If we don't hear by our appointment and our doctor thinks we should go that route, it isn't too much out of pocket (in the grand scheme of things anyway). Any idea how often they have to get new ones? Thanks again! and HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY! kaci > > > > > > what about right after you get him all buckled in and laced? Does > > > the heel move at all when you pull on the shoes (at the heel, try > >to > > > pull him out). > > > > > > If it moves, that's what you need to look at. Can you see under > >his > > > heel to the sole of the shoe through the hole? What you're > >looking > > > for is not necessarily that the heel is back, so much as is the > > > foot/sole flat on the bottom of the shoe? no gaps other than > >right > > > at the back where the rounded part of the heel is. Depending on > >how > > > freshly corrected he is, the round part of the heel may be up > > > further, yet it will drop flatter in the back over time. > >Initially > > > though, it does not exactly sit right in the back/bottom of the > > > shoes. It can take weeks or a couple/few months for it to drop > >fully. > > > > > > Kori > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I just wanted to pipe up about whether or not the shoes may be too small...I know lots of parents here are able to keep their kids in the shoes until their toes are at the end or even hanging over....but that hasn't worked with Aleksander once yet. Every time his toes get near the edge, like around 1/4 of an inch away, we have to get new shoes for him. He won't sleep through the night, he fights me when I try to get his shoes on, and he's quite a little beast. The first night in his new shoes, he lets me put them on without any trouble, and he'll sleep for 12 - 13 hours without a peep. We used to have the Markells, and have just switched to the s so I'm not sure how things will work now that we have the new shoes. In the Markells, we couldn't extend the wear one bit without messing up his (and our) sleep. Aleksander, 11/24/04 bcf > > > > > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out of > his > > > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > > > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. > Ponseti > > > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to > shoulder > > > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive his > feet > > > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last > Thursday... > > > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > > > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever > surface he > > > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. Then > > > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with that > > > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten > the > > > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a sore > on > > > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, > but it > > > takes a little longer. > > > > > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe every > 15- > > > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the 9th > > > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist > yesterday > > > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and told > us > > > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she > made > > > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May > 31st, > > > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is > swill > > > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > > > > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > > > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end > here, > > > but trying very hard to comply. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Kaci, I just wanted to add to this, did you see in Naomi's post last week about outgrowing the shoes width-wise? I was thinking " duh " to myself whenever I read that, I didn't even think of that, but this could definitely be the problem. So hopefully the larger size will take care of the problem or maybe getting into the s. > > > > > > > > Here we go AGAIN! About a month ago, was kicking out > of > > his > > > > shoes a lot. I posted then and got a lot of help, so now I am > > > > pretty confident that everything is like it should be. Dr. > > Ponseti > > > > said his feet look well corrected, we set the bar length to > > shoulder > > > > width apart, we reviewed the tips document and are positive > his > > feet > > > > are well down in the shoes. Fast forward to last > > Thursday... > > > > started kicking out of the right shoe about every hour. He > > > > actually 'digs' the left foot into the floor (or whatever > > surface he > > > > can find) and pulls the right leg up to work his foot out. > Then > > > > when he gets the right foot out, he presses on the bar with > that > > > > foot and pulls on the left one. We finally managed to tighten > > the > > > > strap tighter but that makes him scream and it is causing a > sore > > on > > > > his foot where the strap crosses. He also kicks out of that, > > but it > > > > takes a little longer. > > > > > > > > We are now at a point where he is getting out of the shoe > every > > 15- > > > > 20 minutes when in the 8th hole, and every hour when in the > 9th > > > > (plus a lot of crying in this hole). We saw the orthotist > > yesterday > > > > & she added some angle to the bar, adjusted the length, and > told > > us > > > > that we need a bigger pair of shoes. She said the changes she > > made > > > > should hold us over until our appt with the ped ortho on May > > 31st, > > > > then we can get a script for the shoes. Unfortunately, he is > > swill > > > > getting out of the shoes constantly! > > > > > > > > In your experience does a bigger pair of shoes help this? Any > > > > suggestions on what we can do? I am really at my wit's end > > here, > > > > but trying very hard to comply. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kaci (mom to , 12/17/05, bcf, DBB 23/7) > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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