Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 Dr. Mel wrote: ***Many years ago, while my father was still alive and working in the neurosurgery department in one of the largest hospitals in S Africa, staff in his unit were conducting invasive research into the hydraulics of the spinal fluid. Working together with Professor Edgar Bunt from the mechanical engineering department where I used to work, one of neurosurgeons, Dr , inserted small transducers within the skull and they monitored the pulsations within the spinal fluid. Prof Bunt published some interesting mathematically analysed work on this topic in several journals and books (one of which I have somewhere in my large library that still defies organisation!) and I do not recall ever seeing any proof that subtle manipulations, palpations, pressures and touches supported claims such as those propounded by osteopath Upleger. Di: I know this topic is not of equal interest to most of this audience, since strength training is the core of this discussion group, but this research really interests me and also reminds me of what bugs me the most regarding these popular teachers/teachings in my field of massage. That which might be grounded in reality is often undiscernably mixed with ideas which have no validation, and the distinctions are not clear which is which, nor are the teachers willing to cop to what is known, supportable by real science, and that which is pure conjecture or downright fiction. I assume these invasive procedures were done on humans. If so, did they find a standard rhythm eg: 6 beats per minute, ie 1 every 10 seconds, which seems veerrry slow, as Dr. Upledger claims? Were there any healthy subjects in that hospital volunteering for these invasive tests? Was there evidence that the dura could get kinked and interrupt the rhythm? What variations in rhythms, frequencies, amplitudes, or??? occurred and under what circumstances were consistant variations observable? I know you can't easily find the relevant journals in your defiant library, but perhaps you remember some of the details of these studies. Dr. Mel: ***I read through the huge list of references and testimonials on Upleger's site, but could not find a single article which examined via invasive means the alleged links between resolution of certain syndromes and Upleger's craniosacral therapy and gentle tissue manipulation. Maybe I missed it, but I certainly did not see any scientific work like that done by Bunt and which examined pressure waves and pulsations in the cerebrospinal fluid in response to different conditions. Di: I have not even seen anything supporting his basic premise that the healthy beat is 6/min. Dr. Mel: I thought that someone had laid his greedy little paws on my " Guru Kit " and constructed his own impressive-sounding terminology to impress the impressionable. Then I realised that these folk are deadly serious about all this guru-esque obfuscation! Di: Not only that, they are selling these seminars like wildfire and have attained a position of credibility and high visibility in the massage community in America. I assume it is due to the fact that the teachers under his umbrella are MDs, RPTs, DOs so massage practitioners assume they are getting substantial information from qualified professionals in these 3 day seminars. Added to that school of monkey business, we have , Rpt selling his seminars and now his new book 'Healing Ancient Wounds, The Renegade's Wisdom' (http://vll.com/mfr/) which " explores the intuitive awareness and dynamic mind-body healing principles of Myofascial Release...dramatically increase your effectivenss...reconnect with your essence on your Path to Mastery!' The Renegade's wisdom??!!, Oh please. Dr. Mel: ***What about the powers of suggestion that have been known to psychologists and hypotherapists for many years? When one works with people, you learn to understand how they work and how you should best deal with and persuade them. That is why it is difficult to separate a given therapy from the therapist, at least when the patient is conscious. Di: How many sincere massage practitioners are also less than conscious in their vulnerable acceptance of the group induction Upledger, Barral, and now second generation teachers of these methods are perpetrating throughout the massage community? They out slick CHEK by droves of inductees, I fear. Gadzooks. Di Dianna Linden, diannal@... Santa , CA, USA http://www.netVIP.com/users/diannal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 ---> After all, many scientific articles have deduced that the placebo effect may > be a dominant factor in resolving in excess of 30 percent of all cases of > pathology . This is not even confined to the world of complementary healing, > since bogus cardiac bypass surgery (which simply made surgical chest > incisions suggestive of cardiac surgery) has been shown to enjoy comparable > healing effects to genuine bypass surgery. Thus, it is certainly possible > that a great deal of the apparent success of craniosacral therapy may be > associated with a placebo effect. Dr Siff, What is known about the mechanisms by which the placebo effect works? If it has a thirty percent success rate do any theorize about how to induce that state of healing conciously? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 ---> After all, many scientific articles have deduced that the placebo effect may > be a dominant factor in resolving in excess of 30 percent of all cases of > pathology . This is not even confined to the world of complementary healing, > since bogus cardiac bypass surgery (which simply made surgical chest > incisions suggestive of cardiac surgery) has been shown to enjoy comparable > healing effects to genuine bypass surgery. Thus, it is certainly possible > that a great deal of the apparent success of craniosacral therapy may be > associated with a placebo effect. Dr Siff, What is known about the mechanisms by which the placebo effect works? If it has a thirty percent success rate do any theorize about how to induce that state of healing conciously? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2001 Report Share Posted January 22, 2001 I went to a chiropractor about a month ago because I have some slight back pain/tension on my lower right side. After evaluating my skeletal structure, starting with my cranium and going to my pelvis, he suggested I have neural cranial reconstruction (NCR). He said the source of my problems, in his opinion, were due to my cranial bones being out of alignment. It was suggested that if I had this procedure done (which basically involves putting a probe up the nasal cavity and expanding a ballon to shift the bones), then my back pain would go away; my asymetrical skeleton would become more symetrical; I would be relieved of my allergies; I would not have any functional problems; and my quality of life would improve. When I told him I didn't think I had any functional problems he decided to do some applied kinesiology tests and some static balance tests. After I passed all the tests, he said I was " too buff " for the tests to show any weaknesses. He told me he would give me research articles so I could read about the procedure and then decide what I wanted to do. I was given two articles, but they were hardly research and they were written by another chiropractor specializing in NCR. Oh yeah? - when I asked him what percentage of his patients have this NCR treatment, he stated that most everyone he sees has this done because that is his specialization. Supposedly there are only 20 or so practitioners of this procedure. What's that saying?... " When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail " . Anyone have any thoughts on this specific type of craniosacral therapy? Thanks, Gabe Rinaldi Silicon Valley, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 I would think a helemt would alleviate headache sin the future as it causes the head to grow mor properly and not to push on pressure points. The helmet is very not intrusive. Kids with sensory issues tend to like the helmets. It's comforting. My child has a thing about people touching her face. I have no idea if she's teething, can't brush her teeth can't get food off. She throws a fit but she loves her helmet. Gentle but firm pressure seems to be the love of kids with issues. Our teacher has mentioned several times firm pressure hugs are much better than normal hugs for a kid on the spectrum. They might mess with it for a few days then it is nothing if it's fitted properly. Mine is older and therefore should have the most trouble and it's nothing to her. Many kids miss their helmet when it's gone. not to mention this helmet has saved her many bumps and bruises during this new walking phase.KimFrom: lorgahn <lorgahn@...>Plagiocephaly Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:44:54 PMSubject: Craniosacral therapy? I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 I have to agree. My son is pretty sensitive to sensory input. He can't stand to have dirty hands, will only touch a wet washcloth with his finger tips, completely freaks out over walking on sand or fingerpainting, etc. But, he really liked his helmet most of the time and was upset when we finished treatment. I think a good fit makes a big difference. If you do pursue a helmet, there are some things you can do to make things go more smoothly. I'd make sure they correct any rubbing/ pressure spots immediately, if there are any. We were fortunate and had a perfect fit with our DOC band. Also, have your baby wear hats a lot to get used to something on the head before getting the helmet. Ooh and ahh at the hats so they seem exciting, and encourage other adults to do the same, and you'll train your baby to like them. Good luck! > > I would think a helemt would alleviate headache sin the future as it causes the > head to grow mor properly and not to push on pressure points. The helmet is very > not intrusive. Kids with sensory issues tend to like the helmets. It's > comforting. My child has a thing about people touching her face. I have no idea > if she's teething, can't brush her teeth can't get food off. She throws a fit > but she loves her helmet. Gentle but firm pressure seems to be the love of kids > with issues. Our teacher has mentioned several times firm pressure hugs are much > better than normal hugs for a kid on the spectrum. They might mess with it for a > few days then it is nothing if it's fitted properly. Mine is older and therefore > should have the most trouble and it's nothing to her. Many kids miss their > helmet when it's gone. not to mention this helmet has saved her many bumps and > bruises during this new walking phase. > Kim > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: lorgahn <lorgahn@...> > Plagiocephaly > Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:44:54 PM > Subject: Craniosacral therapy? > > > I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for > plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. > We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. > Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. > I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone > treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any > experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in > children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much > for your input! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 Wow, sorry for all the mistypings. Fixed a few below :PKim > > I would think a helmet would alleviate headaches in the future as it causes the > head to grow more properly and not to push on pressure points. The helmet is extremely > not intrusive. Kids with sensory issues tend to like the helmet. It's > comforting. My child has a thing about people touching her face. I have no idea > if she's teething, can't brush her teeth, can't get food off, etc. She throws a fit > but she loves her helmet. Gentle but firm pressure kids with issues seem to love. Our teacher has mentioned several times firm pressure hugs are much > better than normal hugs for a kid on the spectrum. They might mess with it for a > few days then it is nothing if it's fitted properly. Mine is older and therefore > should have the most trouble and it's nothing to her. Many kids miss their > helmet when it's gone. Not to mention this helmet has saved her many bumps and > bruises during this new walking phase. > Kim > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: lorgahn <lorgahn@...> > Plagiocephaly > Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 3:44:54 PM > Subject: Craniosacral therapy? > > > I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for > plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. > We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. > Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. > I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone > treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any > experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in > children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much > for your input! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2010 Report Share Posted December 6, 2010 we did therapy with Camille from the age of 4 months to the age of 9 months. The improvements were outstanding. A large portion of the misalignment in her facial features was resolved prior to being put in a helmet. One eye was almost closed and here eyes were almost even by the time we were put in a helmet. Even though the improvments were great we still needed a helmet. She was put in a Danmar helmet August 7th 2010 and will graduate at the age of 13.5 months on January 14th 2011. Craniosacral therapy?> > > I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for > plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. > We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. > Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. > I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone > treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any > experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in > children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much > for your input!> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Does anyone have an experience or recommendation for craniosacral therapy in Vancouver? I've found some dr's who perform craniosacral therapy in the Vancouver , but nobody seems to be good with children's plagiocephaly. Plagiocephaly From: estrellavila1@...Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 13:51:41 -0800Subject: Re: Re: Craniosacral therapy? Because my son was banded so late and we were told we would probably not get any improvement I also combined PT and CST with our treatment plan. PT helps with torticollis if your child has any, ours was totally undiagnosed and but much of it resolved on its own through significant amounts of tummy time when my son was an infant. We were totally skeptical of CST but I went for it. I researched all the alternative treatments and felt comfortable with what they did and luckily we were referred to a practioner that has a combined background of physical therapy and the CST. She has over 20 years of experience and has done CST on all her children so she knows it works. She even teaches the CST training classes at upledger sometimes. I think the key is you have to find someone that is at that level, not just a physical therapist that has taken a few CST classes. You need to find a practitioner with legit credentials. Our practitioner has also treated babies before they got helmets and has helped many avoid helmet therapy altogether (she told me examples of starting treatment at around 4 months of age and done by 6 months). CST can also help with toricollis and other tightness in other parts of the body. Our practitioner looks at the body as a whole, not just the skull bones. My son was scanned at 19 months with a difference of 14.8mm and the latest scan from two weeks ago at 22 months of age showed 6.9mm. I am a believer in CST. When you find your practitioner if you dont see results in 2 sessions, then I would move on. We saw results after the first session. I say go for it, it can't hurt. Plus, who would not want a nice head "massage"? Estrella Moeller From: christineashok <christineashok@...>Plagiocephaly Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 7:13:16 AMSubject: Re: Craniosacral therapy? Hi ,I haven't tried CST, and admit to being skeptical, but there are parents who think it works. I would say most people in this group over the past few years use it in conjunction with banding, but a few have used it alone and feel it helped. I have never heard of banding being associated with migraines and I've been in this group for over four years. I assume the migraines would be long after banding, since young children don't generally experience any type of headache, so I'm skeptical that it could be linked to migraines (meaning I doubt there is data that would support this, or studies that have been done). Also by waiting to band you are missing the chance to capture growth. I'm not sure how old your child is, but depending on severity I wouldn't wait to band too long. If the plagio is mild and your baby is 6 mo or younger I would say waiting a few months is fine. If your baby is severe and over 6 mo I would band right away and try CST too.-christinesydney, almost 5 yrs, starband grad>> I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much for your input!> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 You should interview the CST practitioner as hardcore as you can so you dont get your money stolen. I think as long as you have a license to touch (massage therapist, physical therapist, chiro) you can take CST classes. Level 3 CST means they have taken the pediatric course (I think). Try to find someone with as many classes as possible and a physical therapy or chiro background. You can also try osteopathy. Estrella Moeller From: christineashok <christineashok@...>Plagiocephaly Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 5:24:34 PMSubject: Re: Craniosacral therapy? you can take a look at upledger.com to get a list of practitioners. Make sure you check out anyone you find, since I'm not sure the web site does much of a quality check. -christinesydney, almost 5 yrs, starband grad> >> > I'm wondering if anyone tried craniosacral therapy prior to getting a helmet for plagiocephaly. My son has a pretty minor flat spot, but it's noticeable to us. We've really been on the fence about getting a helmet - it seems so intrusive. Our son already has sensory issues, and I worry the helmet will make them worse. I have read a few things about craniosacral therapy being a good stand-alone treatment for plagiocephaly and would love to hear if anyone has had any experience with it. I have also read that helmeting can cause migraines in children down the road - has anyone had experience with this? Thank you so much for your input!> > > > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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