Re: paleodiet

[Guest guest]

>My BP dropped 20 points a few months ago to about 105/65 when I started

>eating paleolithically. I eliminated all dairy and agricultural products

>and

>now eat only meat, fish, fowl, eggs, fruits, vegetables, and nuts. If I

>cannot in theory hunt for it or cut it from a tree or plant then I don't

>eat

>it.

>

>-gts

Gordon,

It would be interesting to hear about your experience with this paleo diet.

-Bill

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Bill,

I started this dieting voyage last year when I decided to give the atkins

keto diet a try, which worked fabulously well for me. I was intrigued by the

notion that humans evolved eating much less carbohydrate than is common

today, and this led me to take the next step from the Atkins diet to a

bonafide paleolithic diet.

The logic is simple:

1. The best diet is a natural diet.

2. Nature is defined as the absence of technology.

3. Agriculture and animal husbandry are technologies.

4. We should therefore eat meat, fish, fowl, fruits, vegetable and nuts. We

should avoid agricultural and dairy products, as these two food types are

products of technology.

We all know that agricultural products are mostly empty carbs and that a

hi-carb diet is usually not a healthy diet. This much is low-carb-dieting

philosophy 101.

With regard to dairy: we've been brainwashed by the dairy industry and by

hundreds of years of western human tradition to think consumption of dairy

is natural and wholesome (Got Milk?:-). But if you think about it a little,

you will realize that the practice of drinking cow's milk is actually very

bizarre. It is parasitic and almost vampire-like. No other animal on earth

steals and drinks the milk of another species. Indeed no other animal on

earth even drinks the milk of its own species past infancy! Only calves are

genetically adapted to drink cow's milk and only infant humans are adapted

to drink human mother's milk.

Descendents of northern europeans are an exception but the majority of the

world's population is lactose intolerant. Humans by default lose the ability

to make lactase after infancy, though europeans mutated somewhat to handle

the unnatural addition of lactose. Allergies to milk protein (casein) are

also very common, again because we humans are just not genetically adapted

to dairy products.

Humans have been eating agricultural and dairy products for only about

10,000 years, since about the dawn of the neolithic period. During this time

we have seen the rise of all the so-called diseases of civilization

(diabetes, etc). For the two million years prior to the neolithic we

subsisted quite well on a diet limited only to meat, fish, fowl, fruits,

vegetables, nuts and berries.

This paleolithic caveman diet is the diet our genes expect, and so it is the

diet I have adopted. As I mentioned, my blood pressure dropped 20 points

almost immediately. I also dropped another 10 pounds effortlessly, such that

I actually became underweight and had to start forcing myself to eat lots of

extra fruit to put the weight back on. Now it is a real joy to eat the sweet

treats that mother nature provides. Who needs cake and ice cream when you

can eat apples and bananas and strawberries? I had forgotten that natural

foods were so delicious and satisfying.

I eat steak several times per week, lots of fish (love sardines), chicken,

lots of vegetables like broccolli, lots of tomatoes and tons and tons of

fruit. I eat all I want, whenever I want, and never bother to count calories

or carbohydrates. It seems to be working very well for me.

The paleodiet credo: " Eat only that which is edible when you are naked with

a sharp stick. "

-gts

Re: paleodiet

>

> >My BP dropped 20 points a few months ago to about 105/65 when I started

> >eating paleolithically. I eliminated all dairy and agricultural products

> >and

> >now eat only meat, fish, fowl, eggs, fruits, vegetables, and nuts. If I

> >cannot in theory hunt for it or cut it from a tree or plant then I don't

> >eat

> >it.

> >

> >-gts

>

> Gordon,

>

> It would be interesting to hear about your experience with this paleo

diet.

>

> -Bill

>

>

[Guest guest]

> We all know that agricultural products are mostly empty carbs and that a

> hi-carb diet is usually not a healthy diet. This much is low-carb-dieting

> philosophy 101.

This is not very accurate. A number of whole grain products contain various

nutrients, including soluble fibers which are beneficial to health. I have

monitored people on high carb, low carb, high protein, low protein, high fat

low fat - you name it. The one thing that I can say without question is

that there is tremendous variability in responses to dietary manipulations.

The diet with the most consistent research documenting health benefits is a

Mediterranean type diet. My dissertation is hoping to take things a step

further with periodized nutrition. Where there is a systematic alteration

of macronutrient intake based upon physical activity, goals, etc. Some

preliminary info we have gathered supports that altering macronutrients (we

don't know how often, etc) may be of some value.

> With regard to dairy: we've been brainwashed by the dairy industry and by

> hundreds of years of western human tradition to think consumption of dairy

> is natural and wholesome (Got Milk?:-). But if you think about it a

little,

> you will realize that the practice of drinking cow's milk is actually very

> bizarre. It is parasitic and almost vampire-like. No other animal on earth

> steals and drinks the milk of another species. Indeed no other animal on

> earth even drinks the milk of its own species past infancy! Only calves

are

> genetically adapted to drink cow's milk and only infant humans are adapted

> to drink human mother's milk.

Gordon, humans do many things that no other animals do. This argument in

itself is not reason enough to stop drinking milk. Stronger arguments could

be made for not drinking milk based on the evidence that casein is very

atherosclerotic (although I think it may be due more to an interaction of

casein with certain fatty acids and/or dietary fibers from foods like

wheat) or some limited data it induces cancer in rats (this was cooked

casein not casein from milk).

The latest research on colostrum (the early secretions prior to milk)

indicates that it boosts immune system status in a variety of agents and

that it enhances athletic performance. Every scientist I have spoken to so

far that is involved with research on colostrum says the stuff works yet

can't explain exactly how so. I think this is a step in more holistic

approaches to enhancing health/performance. By boosting immune function in

these athletes, researchers are increasing their physical performance. While

colostrum is milk, I do think that milk can have very good benefits for

health. We have to also be sensitive to the fact that in some countries

maternal milk is not available and supplementing with infant formulas is

necessary and that and obtaining calcium from diet is difficult if one does

not eat or drink diary products. If we look at the amount of milk consumed

among people in the US in general, there aren't any strong correlations

between milk consumption and disease, as far as I know.

> Descendents of northern Europeans are an exception but the majority of the

> world's population is lactose intolerant. Humans by default lose the

ability

> to make lactase after infancy, though Europeans mutated somewhat to handle

> the unnatural addition of lactose. Allergies to milk protein (casein) are

> also very common, again because we humans are just not genetically adapted

> to dairy products.

Lactose deficiency is easy to spot: gas, diarrhea, other GI disturbances.

In fact you can cause these symptoms even in northern Europeans by giving

them very large boluses of powdered milk in water (very high lactose

concentration and amount). If this occurs various options are available to

deal with this. Allergies to milk can occur due to either the casein or

whey proteins in the milk. How one defines " allergies " varies quite a bit.

I don't buy into the allergy tests or sensitivity tests that are currently

being done. I do buy into systematic testing of various potential

allergens, and this is usually accomplished via working with an MD

specializing in immune disorders.

> Humans have been eating agricultural and dairy products for only about

> 10,000 years, since about the dawn of the Neolithic period. During this

time

> we have seen the rise of all the so-called diseases of civilization

> (diabetes, etc). For the two million years prior to the Neolithic we

> subsisted quite well on a diet limited only to meat, fish, fowl, fruits,

> vegetables, nuts and berries.

We have also seen an increase in jobs requiring less physical activity.

> This paleolithic caveman diet is the diet our genes expect, and so it is

the

> diet I have adopted. As I mentioned, my blood pressure dropped 20 points

> almost immediately. I also dropped another 10 pounds effortlessly, such

that

> I actually became underweight and had to start forcing myself to eat lots

of

> extra fruit to put the weight back on. Now it is a real joy to eat the

sweet

> treats that mother nature provides. Who needs cake and ice cream when you

> can eat apples and bananas and strawberries? I had forgotten that natural

> foods were so delicious and satisfying.

There is no doubt that eating fruits and vegetables is important. One

critique made for the Atkins diet is a lack of fruits and vegetable

consumption. This is a moot critique though. I have analyzed thousands of

diets (through my private practice and the

various studies done over the years) and in almost every single case, not

enough fruits and vegetables were consumed. cake and ice cream are not the

same as oatmeal and barley. There are benefits to whole grain food

products.

> I eat steak several times per week, lots of fish (love sardines), chicken,

> lots of vegetables like broccolli, lots of tomatoes and tons and tons of

> fruit. I eat all I want, whenever I want, and never bother to count

calories

> or carbohydrates. It seems to be working very well for me.

This is good. Have you measured blood lipids or homocysteine levels?

> The paleodiet credo: " Eat only that which is edible when you are naked

with

> a sharp stick. "

You'll need some fire though to cook the animal flesh products.

Tom

Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS

Director of Sports Nutrition

Human Performance Specialists, Inc.

619 NW 90th Terrace

Plantation, FL 33324

954-577-0689

hpsinc@...

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> > We all know that agricultural products are mostly empty carbs and that a

> > hi-carb diet is usually not a healthy diet. This much is

low-carb-dieting

> > philosophy 101.

>

> This is not very accurate.

I wrote above that agricultural products are " mostly " empty carbs, not

entirely empty carbs. And is a completely accurate representation of

" low-carb dieting philosophy 101 "

I think humans are better off without hi-carb agricultural products and

hi-fat dairy products. We did very well without them for about 2 million

years, so why should we think our genetics demand anything different? I

believe it is wise and genetically sound to eat the same foods that our

ancestors ate for hundreds of thousands of years prior to the advent of

dairy and agricultural, and so that is what I do.

I realize the med diet is very popular with a lot of epidemiological

evidence to support it, but I also think the cultural factors underlying

those edimiological figures are under-emphasized.

I eat lots olive oil like the mediterraneans -- I cook with it and use it on

salads -- but you won't catch me gorging on bread. I consider bread to be a

junk food. Natural fruits and vegetables are good sources of fiber and there

are many more nutrient-dense sources of the same nutrients you can find in

bread.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon,

There is a report on 20/20 tonight about calorie-restricted diets featuring one of my (more flaky(?)) patients. Don't know how they are going to treat it, just let you know there is going to be a program on it. Sunny ;'-))

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DCFibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon711 Country Club Rd., #1AEugene, Oregon541-345-9436

paleodiet

I was reading about the calorie restricted diet purported to increaselongevity. This info on the paleodiet was a link that I thought wasinteresting. sharron fuchs dc http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html<http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/2/2004 10:30:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, fiestacranberry@... writes:

I have been very bad lately and have gone off my diet several times thisyear. It's been a bad year for me, with a lot of sickness and a deathin the family, and I admit to being a "comfort" eater. Not good, Iknow.Lori

Can you make a list ahead of time, when you're feeling good, of comfort foods that don't contain gluten? Then you could have them on hand for hard times. Everyone's definition of a comfort food is different, of course, but there must be something GF that would work for you.

I like to go to the neighborhood coffeeshop/French bakery with my husband. It's an emotional/social ritual for me; I did it long before I learned I had CD. Knowing my problem with gluten, they don't mind if I bring my own almond cookies to have with their coffee. I keep bags, each containing two of the little cookies, made up ready to grab and go. Perhaps you could plan ahead for that sort of situation, letting you join in with your friends when they go out for snacks. (Strictly speaking, it's not a good idea for us to hang out where wheat-based items are being made, but that's my compromise.)

Harper

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

The symptoms are being gassy, tired, cranky, but much less obnoxious

than with wheat. I'm still eating milk and milk products. Trying

to stick to yogurt and buttermilk so at least I have a chance of not

getting the lactose. I added oats back in after what I heard at the

conference and seem to be fine on that - i.e. no discernable changes

and I really like having the fiber. I don't have problems with raw

veggies.

Arrgh - so much of this seems so subjective and hard to define - how

do I know that I'm better or worse from what I'm eating and not from

some other thing in my life or just randomly?? It seems so subtle.

I don't have a biopsy diagnosis and I'm afraid that after 6 weeks it

is too late to get one. I may be getting a patch or two of DH which

would make diagnosis a bit easier perhaps. But I don't have a

dermatologist lined up to do that biopsy - any suggestions for that??

I did have the samples of cookies, etc at the conference and came to

the firm conclusion that if I have eliminated cookies etc from a

healthy diet before eliminating wheat, then there really is no good

reason to bring them back. It seems to be the sugar and the fat

that is not good for me - feeling sluggish and loggy. I'm not sure

that it is the bean flours, but the reasoning on the " nourishing

traditions " list (or is it the paleodiet list?)is that beans and

grains need to be fermented or at least sprouted in order to convert

the starches into assimilatable sugars and most baked goods don't

use sprouted or fermented grain or beans before being made into

flour....I'm just confused.

I'm one of the celiacs who has overcompensated for years and I have

gotten all my gross nutrients - fat, carbs, protein and am now fat.

Getting rid of the gluten foods fits right in with the Weight

Watchers " CORE " program and I have been losing some weight (not the

day after all those cookies however!!) I wonder what I might have

been like if I had discovered my problem with gluten back in the

day...

I do like to cook and do know how to do that so much of the paleo

and " nourshing traditions " cooking looks very, very familar.

Thank you all for listening to my whining!

Connie

> >Any thoughts on this?

>

> Hi Connie,

> What was the symptom? Are you consuming dairy? Many celiacs don't

> tolerate dairy very well, at least until they are healed. I'm so

> sensitive, I can't even eat soy cheese if it contains casein. I

get way

> more symptoms from eating dairy than gluten. IMO, no one should

eat

> dairy after the age of 4, but I know there are some who will

disagree

> with that. To each his own :^)

>

> Check out www.nomilk.com

>

> Have you been eating any of those gluten free breads, cookies,

etc? I

> find I don't tolerate these well at all. I just can't ass-

similate (ha

> ha) bean flours or any of those gums they use.

>

> >Also, is there anyone on this list who is

> >pursuing the Paleodiet or some form of

> > " pre-wheat agriculture " diet?

>

> I've been going paleo on and off for years, even before I knew

about the

> celiac thing. I have to admit to a real weakness for chocolate.

I also

> have a lot of trouble with fiber---too much salad, fruit, etc. is a

> dis-ass-ter (ha ha) for me). I have found that the best diet for

me is

> a modified paleo, with a lot of cooked green vegetables, meat and

eggs,

> moderate amounts of rice or potato, occasional salad in the summer

(once

> or twice a week) and tiny amounts of fruit. No dairy at all.

> Chinese-type food seems to sit best with me.

>

> Check out www.paleodiet.com

>

> I'm curious

> >about that and about how so many of the

> >top 10 problem foods are recent

> >(evolutionarily speaking) the introduction

> >to the human diet or at least to the

> > " northern European fogbelt peoples " diet.

> Most, I think. Wheat, rye oats and barley are all fairly new, last

> 10,000 years or so. Less than that for the far flung corners of

> Europe. Corn, soy and rice are even newer, especially to

Europeans.

> New world plants (the Americas) include corn, tomatoes, potatoes,

most

> beans, and squash.

>

> It's been hard for me because I'm one of those " silent celiacs " .

The

> only symptom I get when I ingest wheat is my ulcer pain comes

back. And

> that can take days to happen.

>

> My sister used to be silent, also. But now, she is super

sensitive.

>

> I have been very bad lately and have gone off my diet several

times this

> year. It's been a bad year for me, with a lot of sickness and a

death

> in the family, and I admit to being a " comfort " eater. Not good, I

> know.

>

> Lori

>

> -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

>

> " I wrestled with reality for 36 years, and I'm happy to say that I

> finally won out over it. "

> ---Elwood P. Dowd

[Guest guest]

Hi Gordon:

Here is why I posted that: Rhubarb is a veggie that is cooked into

something that is more like a fruit. Until cooked, it is poisonous.

Jim

Gordon Swobe wrote:

> Jim:

>

> I confess I don't know much about rhubarb. I hope you know more about

> rhubarb than me.

>

> I do know that rhubard does not qualify as meat, fish, fowl, eggs,

> fruits, or nuts. Right?

>

> In the paleo way of seeing things, that leaves open the idea that

> rhubarb might qualify as a vegetable or a fruit.

>

> If your friends do not consider rhubard a fruit or vegetable, then,

> well, please tell them that I think they should think carefully before

> eating.

>

> -gts

>

>

>

> > From: Jim <huuman60@... <mailto:huuman60%40comcast.net>>

> > Subject: Re: the problem with soy

> > Longevity <mailto:Longevity%40>

> > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:03 PM

>

> > OK, Gordon. That means no rhubarb, right? A lot of my

> > friends would be upset with this exclusion.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

If raw rhubarb acts like an obvious poison then I would consider it unwise to

eat it cooked. Cooked rhubarb may still act like a poison but in less obvious

ways that science has not yet discovered.

The human genome evolves very slowly. If our paleolithic ancestors who lived

before the discovery of fire and cooking could not eat a given food then we have

no reason to believe modern humans have the genetic adaptations needed to

process that food without ill effect.

Note that billions of humans still have no tolerance for lactose (milk sugar).

Milk entered the human diet after the paleolithic, sometime during the

neolithic, some 5 to 10 thousand years ago. Dairy products do not qualify as

paleo-correct foods.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Hi Gordon:

Thanks for the response. Sounds reasonable.

As to the milk issue, I would bet that far fewer people would have

problems with raw milk due to the enzymatic action of the lactose that

is killed with pasteurization.

Regards, Jim

Gordon Swobe wrote:

> Jim,

>

> If raw rhubarb acts like an obvious poison then I would consider it

> unwise to eat it cooked. Cooked rhubarb may still act like a poison

> but in less obvious ways that science has not yet discovered.

>

> The human genome evolves very slowly. If our paleolithic ancestors who

> lived before the discovery of fire and cooking could not eat a given

> food then we have no reason to believe modern humans have the genetic

> adaptations needed to process that food without ill effect.

>

> Note that billions of humans still have no tolerance for lactose (milk

> sugar). Milk entered the human diet after the paleolithic, sometime

> during the neolithic, some 5 to 10 thousand years ago. Dairy products

> do not qualify as paleo-correct foods.

>

> -gts

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lecithin is also ok, in my view and does not fall under this category.

Re: the problem with soy

> Longevity

> Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:03 PM

> OK, Gordon. That means no rhubarb, right? A lot of my

> friends would be upset with this exclusion.

[Guest guest]

> Lecithin is also ok, in my view and does not fall under this

> category.

I have little confidence in that view. Soybean derived lecithin might not

qualify as part of a paleodiet for the same reasons that soybeans do not. But

then on the other hand lecithin also commonly comes from egg-yolk, and egg-yolk

does qualify.

According to the wikipedia article about lecithin, " Because of the

EU-requirement to declare additions of allergens in foods... a gradual shift to

other sources of lecithin, e.g., sunflower oil, is taking place. "

Good for the EU. Almost certainly sunflower oil based lecithin qualifies.

As our investigation increases in its level of detail, the difference between

paleo and non-paleo foods becomes a matter of chemistry and genetics.

Can we say with confidence that the human genone has adapted to all the

chemicals in food X? The paleodieter lets human biological history decide the

question: if we do not have good reason to believe humans consumed food X more

than about 12,000 years ago, at minimum, then we ought to consider the chemicals

in food X dangerous.

-gts