Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Just putting in my two cents worth. Years ago all vinegar was considered suspect unless the source was known. This put whole categories of food in question. However, in my experience I never found a vinegar made with wheat or other gluten grains except malt vinegar, which is made from barley and is a definite no-no because it is not distilled. About 5 years ago (+-) the certain factions in celiac community declared that the distillation process removed all the protein from the grains; thus they proclaimed that vinegar (other than malted vinegar or vinegars with additives or flavorings) was safe for celiacs even if it was made from wheat. There was much to-do about this at the time, but the “vinegar is safe” crowd prevailed. I never heard any proof of the ability of the distillation process to remove all proteins, such as testing several batches of vinegar distilled from wheat (this may have been impossible since no one was making vinegar from wheat at the time). I personally have not worried about distilled vinegar much primarily because, of all the vinegars I ever checked on, not one was made with wheat or other gluten grains; most were made from corn. Unfortunately the price of corn is going up, which gives me some concern that, if wheat is cheaper or more available than corn, manufacturers may turn to wheat to make vinegar (so far I haven’t heard of this happening). Often manufacturers just use whatever is most economical to make vinegar, and often switch back and forth, which is why it is hard to pin down manufacturers as to the source of the vinegar. My current position is that I check carefully on all products that I serve in my home, but don’t worry about distilled vinegar when we eat out. Where does this leave celiacs? Basically, we each have to decide what degree of certainty makes us feel safe and operate within those parameters. I just do my best to give people as much information as I can to help them decide. Pam For those who wish to delve deeper into the subject: I checked on the article on celiac.com http://www.celiac.com/articles/328/1/Does-Distillation-Remove-All-Gluten/Page1.html) and was interested to see that, after he claims that: “Distillation quite effectively removes the gluten and it is very unlikely that splashes of fermented (we call it " moutwijn " , i.e. malt wine, can’t remember the correct English word for it) will be carried over to the final distillate,” he sums up with: “I would like to stress that the determination of gluten in these types of products is very unreliable and we have to count with false positive as well as false negative values. The gluten proteins could have been broken down to small (but still toxic) peptides and in that case a sandwich-type ELISA might produce false negative results because in that case you always need to two epitopes (binding sites for the antiserum) on one molecule to get a positive reaction. A competitive type assay would be the choice for this type of product, but we haven’t tried this type of analysis yet. We did use it on a soy sauce, which was prepared with wheat gluten and didn’t find any gliadin, which might be an indication that gluten had been broken down to very small peptides with less than one binding site.” This is quite confusing, but I read this to mean that the tests they did on vinegar and liquors don’t necessarily pick up on gluten that has been broken down into small, but still harmful peptides. This makes me really wonder about the claim that distillation removes gluten; what this sounds like to me is that the peptides are too small to find on the test but can still make celiacs sick. Also, what’s the point of the ELISA test if it doesn’t detect peptides that are broken down but still harmful? This is where I really start to hope I am misunderstanding this article! Another pet peeve: the assertion that it is “unlikely” that the malt would “splash” into the vinegar to me means that, even if 1000 batches of vinegar are fine, it only takes that one accidentally contaminated batch to connect to an unfortunate celiac to create havoc in someone’s life (and, don’t you know, that’s what would happen!). Anyone else have any different take on this??? From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Luther Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Vinegar Thanks for the info. This is how I would sum it up: unless otherwise stated, 'white vinegar' may possibly be from wheat and may not be distilled and may possibly contain gluten. It may not be, but there is no way to be sure unless the source or distilled are labelled as well. On 4/22/08, flatcat9@... <flatcat9@...> wrote: > According to celiac.com: > > " White vinegar or just plain vinegar are typically distilled, and, if so, > are > gluten-free. Distilled vinegar can be distilled from wheat, corn, potatoes, > beets, wood, apples and many other things. Most in the USA are not made from > wheat, but are instead made from corn, potatoes or wood, which are all safe > (Heinz white vinegar is distilled from corn). Distilled vinegars that are > made > from wheat are probably gluten-free because of the distillation process > described > in Frederik Willem Janssens article on this site. > > Distilled vinegar made from wood are gluten-free. Wood-based vinegar is > often > the vinegar used in processed foods. > > Flavored vinegars are made with white, distilled vinegar, and flavorings are > then added. Some of these may also not be gluten-free (the cheapest vinegars > are used since the flavors are masked by the herbs and flavoring). > > Malted vinegars are usually not gluten-free. > > Red and white wine and balsamic vinegars are gluten-free. " > > H. > > In a message dated 4/22/08 3:00:24 PM, l@... writes: > > > > > > I thought that " white vinegar " is made from grains including wheat, > > and unless distilled, may contain gluten. > > > > > > > > > > > ************** > Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car > listings at AOL Autos. > > (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) > -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hi Pam,You have some interesting facts here that add a lot of information to the question. I have wondered the same -- how is it possible to claim that these various grain vinegars and alcohols have no trace gluten? Is it actually backed up by science in a fair way? Or is it just wishful thinking on the part of various manufacturers?Certainly in my own personal experience I don't trust most vinegar mainly because I have reacted badly to it for years. Going off herbal tinctures also helped improve my health -- even though most are made with vodka. When I found that white vinegar etc. was sometimes made from wheat that made me realize why I could handle apple cider vinegar but not the rest. I have observed too that for my aged mother and brother with Down's syndrome both react almost immediately to distilled vinegar in various products like pickles and mustards etc. by choking and coughing and a ragged voice. My mother also gets DH from it too and my brother gets bad flaky skin. Whereas products instead made with apple cider vinegar don't create these negative effects. So who to believe? I tend to believe what I experience and see more than what manufacturers promote especially if the science behind their claims is shaky.BeaPam Newbury <pknewbury@...> wrote: Just putting in my two cents worth. Years ago all vinegar was considered suspect unless the source was known. This put whole categories of food in question. However, in my experience I never found a vinegar made with wheat or other gluten grains except malt vinegar, which is made from barley and is a definite no-no because it is not distilled. About 5 years ago (+-) the certain factions in celiac community declared that the distillation process removed all the protein from the grains; thus they proclaimed that vinegar (other than malted vinegar or vinegars with additives or flavorings) was safe for celiacs even if it was made from wheat. There was much to-do about this at the time, but the “vinegar is safe” crowd prevailed. I never heard any proof of the ability of the distillation process to remove all proteins, such as testing several batches of vinegar distilled from wheat (this may have been impossible since no one was making vinegar from wheat at the time). I personally have not worried about distilled vinegar much primarily because, of all the vinegars I ever checked on, not one was made with wheat or other gluten grains; most were made from corn. Unfortunately the price of corn is going up, which gives me some concern that, if wheat is cheaper or more available than corn, manufacturers may turn to wheat to make vinegar (so far I haven’t heard of this happening). Often manufacturers just use whatever is most economical to make vinegar, and often switch back and forth, which is why it is hard to pin down manufacturers as to the source of the vinegar. My current position is that I check carefully on all products that I serve in my home, but don’t worry about distilled vinegar when we eat out. Where does this leave celiacs? Basically, we each have to decide what degree of certainty makes us feel safe and operate within those parameters. I just do my best to give people as much information as I can to help them decide. Pam For those who wish to delve deeper into the subject: I checked on the article on celiac.com http://www.celiac.com/articles/328/1/Does-Distillation-Remove-All-Gluten/Page1.html) and was interested to see that, after he claims that: “Distillation quite effectively removes the gluten and it is very unlikely that splashes of fermented (we call it "moutwijn", i.e. malt wine, can’t remember the correct English word for it) will be carried over to the final distillate,” he sums up with: “I would like to stress that the determination of gluten in these types of products is very unreliable and we have to count with false positive as well as false negative values. The gluten proteins could have been broken down to small (but still toxic) peptides and in that case a sandwich-type ELISA might produce false negative results because in that case you always need to two epitopes (binding sites for the antiserum) on one molecule to get a positive reaction. A competitive type assay would be the choice for this type of product, but we haven’t tried this type of analysis yet. We did use it on a soy sauce, which was prepared with wheat gluten and didn’t find any gliadin, which might be an indication that gluten had been broken down to very small peptides with less than one binding site.” This is quite confusing, but I read this to mean that the tests they did on vinegar and liquors don’t necessarily pick up on gluten that has been broken down into small, but still harmful peptides. This makes me really wonder about the claim that distillation removes gluten; what this sounds like to me is that the peptides are too small to find on the test but can still make celiacs sick. Also, what’s the point of the ELISA test if it doesn’t detect peptides that are broken down but still harmful? This is where I really start to hope I am misunderstanding this article! Another pet peeve: the assertion that it is “unlikely” that the malt would “splash” into the vinegar to me means that, even if 1000 batches of vinegar are fine, it only takes that one accidentally contaminated batch to connect to an unfortunate celiac to create havoc in someone’s life (and, don’t you know, that’s what would happen!). Anyone else have any different take on this??? From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Luther Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Vinegar Thanks for the info. This is how I would sum it up: unless otherwise stated, 'white vinegar' may possibly be from wheat and may not be distilled and may possibly contain gluten. It may not be, but there is no way to be sure unless the source or distilled are labelled as well. On 4/22/08, flatcat9aol <flatcat9aol> wrote: > According to celiac.com: > > "White vinegar or just plain vinegar are typically distilled, and, if so, > are > gluten-free. Distilled vinegar can be distilled from wheat, corn, potatoes, > beets, wood, apples and many other things. Most in the USA are not made from > wheat, but are instead made from corn, potatoes or wood, which are all safe > (Heinz white vinegar is distilled from corn). Distilled vinegars that are > made > from wheat are probably gluten-free because of the distillation process > described > in Frederik Willem Janssens article on this site. > > Distilled vinegar made from wood are gluten-free. Wood-based vinegar is > often > the vinegar used in processed foods. > > Flavored vinegars are made with white, distilled vinegar, and flavorings are > then added. Some of these may also not be gluten-free (the cheapest vinegars > are used since the flavors are masked by the herbs and flavoring). > > Malted vinegars are usually not gluten-free. > > Red and white wine and balsamic vinegars are gluten-free." > > H. > > In a message dated 4/22/08 3:00:24 PM, l@... writes: > > > > > > I thought that "white vinegar" is made from grains including wheat, > > and unless distilled, may contain gluten. > > > > > > > > > > > ************** > Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car > listings at AOL Autos. > > (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) > -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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