Re: Palin's choice puts her under 20%

September 2, 2008

How do you know she is not capable or responsible, gee the poor woman has

not even been given a chance. It is sad that people think she is not worthy of

this challenge when she has not been given an adequate chance to prove

herself. Jen

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September 2, 2008

This is so true. I have a friend with a DS nephew. It was discovered

the day he was born and his case is considered unusual as it could not

be detected on US. Anyway, he got early intervention from the start and

everyone is truly shocked at what he is doing. He has hot or surpassed

every milestone. His brother is apraxic and is also doing well. These

kids are amazing.

September 2, 2008

Somehow the mother's death, and her running for VP don't quite measure up to the

same thing.

We all feel very sorry for the poor children who lose their mother for whatever

reason. In fact our hearts break even for Bamby when the mother is shot and the

father takes over. When it happens it happens and there's no choice. Good thing

there was a dad, or anybody else who could fill that role. But this is not

ideal, it's by necessity and it's always sad when an infant--especially one with

special needs is without his mother for a long time or forever--no matter what

the reason is.

I think this is just another example of that only she is not lost to death but

to her own career choice. And were she an ordinary career woman I would not even

think about it. I really wouldn't, I have better things to do with my

time.

But she is asking me to vote for her, by this action she is making it my

business, she's asking me for her vote and based on many things I am learning

about her I'm not so sure she measures up to what I consider a top

candidate--even if she is a woman and has a special needs child----which under

different circumstances (the child being older-4-5 years) would actually be a

plus. But by then she would probably know enough about special needs to not be

able to do what she is doing now.

Now you are all right to say that if her husband were running for VP this would

not be an issue. It wouldn't, he's not the one carrying the baby for 9 months,

breastfeeding and doing all that good bonding during the first years of life. He

could certainly do some of it, but it doesn't fully replace the mom. There's no

sense arguing that. Dads are great and parents can

be interchangeable but not in the beginning, not unless there really is no

choice. And with special needs, you really need both parents to stay on top of

it to get things under control, make the right choices and put in the needed

effort. Now they can pay someone to do it too...but it's NOT the mom.

So does this mean mothers of young children should do nothing but stay home and

breastfeed? No, by all means they can do what ever they want and I admire

career women, secretly envy them perhaps since I obviously chose my family and

do not regret it, but... there's always the what if...

However, the fact remains this woman is asking me for her vote, and I will judge

her and her actions much more critically than if she were just another career

woman--in which case I wouldn't judge her at all, it would be none of my

business.

She is asking us to judge her as a political

candidate for the vice presidency of the US--the most powerful nation in the

world and some of us choose to take that on--and base it on the expectations we

have of a political candidate for vice presidency and her character as a mother

of a young disabled child since she is both, no matter how you look at it. And

these two images are emotionally disturbing for some of us.

Sure I want a capable woman to be president and vice president etc. and that

woman would definitely have my vote. But it really would have to be the RIGHT

woman, or the right man for that matter. I would not vote for what I considered

to be the wrong woman, just because she was a woman, or just because she had a

special needs child too. Actions speak louder than words, and her actions today

make me think she's not the one I would vote for --no matter what she would say

about foreign affairs, about womens' rights and those of special

needs children, about anything.

To me her ability to adequately judge an important situation and to fulfill her

duty as VP--possibly president of the US--are both in question.

You see this candidate has these two images side by side:

1. Level headed, capable, assertive, political career woman who is dedicating

herself completly to politics at this point in her life at the expense of her

personal and family life --this BTW is required by the job, no way around it for

anybody, man or woman;

2. Loving mother (parent) of a disabled infant (whom BTW we all know will need a

LOT more than any average infant)

These two images just don't fit. If she is first but not the second than I

question that. If she is the second than I question how she can live up to the

first. It's just too much to ask of any human being. You really can't do both

at once, you just can't. It is sad for women, to have to choose, and not

all do, but for certain positions and in certain situations that's just how it

is. The image of candidate Palin and her young special needs child (and we all

know what the parents of special needs children go through emotionally etc.) in

her arms --taking him everywhere as she stated, and her possibly becoming the

Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces of the most powerful nation in the

world, in these very difficult political and economically challenging times just

doesn't measure up to what I have in my mind about the possible president of the

US. I am sorry, I may be old fashioned in my thinking and feeling, but these are

two irreconcilable pictures. I know the opportunity for vice presidency is NOW

for her, but that goes for her child as well.

I know, some of you will say she may make the best decisions yet precisely

because she is a woman and may have that special needs child in her arms...but I

base my vote on rational decisions not wishfully thinking. The US presidency is

a very tough job and whoever fills that spot must be fully capable physically,

emotionally, intellectually etc.

Now and others have said what if the dad was running for VP, would I hold

it against him that he has a 4 m old DS baby. Certainly NOT! He's not the MOM!!!

They may have reversed roles, and that's just fine, a lot of parents do that.

But they don't ask me

to vote for them in the VP of US capacity.

This is the only problem. She is asking me for my opinion indirectly by asking

me to vote for her and in order to decide I have to first formulate an opinion.

And well.. this is what I come up with--two images that just don't fit. And you

know, before I had a special needs child I may have had a different opinion. I

may have just thought how dedicated she was to her career and well, her family

has to understand. But that special needs child has a very unique window of

opportunity to bond with his mom and benefit from the, presence, hard work and

research and total dedication he needs that only a mother can give and he won't

have that opportunity. The dad may do his best, and he may research and work on

all the kids need instead of her, but it will not be her, she'll barely have

time to see the kid with such a demanding job. And of course the financial

issues will not matter for them as they

do for all of us here, but we all know it isn't just about the money. It is

about finding the right specialists, right therapies and treatments and working

with your child every day, rejoicing in every little gain and inspiring him/her

to go further. So since I'm asked to judge her in order to vote for her, I do,

and this is what I come up with--two images that don't fit.

I love what Janice said about S.' saying " women can have it all; just not

all at once! "

This is the problem, this woman is going for it all at once---opportunity

knocked and she's on top of it, but to me that's maybe biting on more than she

can chew--and again, this is not any woman, but one who is asking me to elect

her VP--possibly president-- and this can impact my life indeed. If any of you

think it can't than we should never bother to vote. I've had enough of someone

else running the US from behind the president. I want a capable, responsible VP/

president for a change -one I can feel will do the job, on his/her own and who

can make running the state his/her top priority.

So I'm judging.... no at all the thing I would do for Angelina Jolie.

-Elena

From: elmccann <elmccann@...>

Subject: Re:[ ] Re: Palin's choice puts her under 20%

Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 10:05 AM

>. . .the child is barely 4 months old! I just don't know that a

father could possibly replace the 'mother-child' bond that needs to

take place during the first year of life.

So, if a mother dies during childbirth, the father should give the baby

up for adoption because he doesn't stand a

chance?

------------------------------------

September 2, 2008

Speaking as one who lost her mother young, we don't need pity. We just

need what apraxics and others whose lives are a little different need:

acceptance of our reality to the extent that is possible.

September 3, 2008

Yes, every child is a miracle and they can all go so much further than even we

their parents can imagine, especially if we are there to support them every step

of the way.

We know it takes so much effort and dedication on the part of both parents if

possible, especially if the family has more children. I just cannot imagine

someone else other than the mother (and yes father too as the case may be but

the reality is it is most often the moms) putting in all that effort and

devotion needed to make it all happen. And DS is very multifaceted health

wise. While some have severe heart problems and may never make it to birth or

die shortly after or necessitate multiple surgeries to survive,others are

actually fairly healthy with only minor isues. But developmentally, well that's

the next hurdle and that's more apparent after the first year I'm sure. And

money and specialists alone don't do it. It takes so much more than money and

specialists. I feel like 24 -7 isn't enough and we all do what we can I'm sure

given the other responsibilities we have.

And I'm not saying she's not a good or loving mother. She obviously is if she

has chosen to have 5 children, it's just that there's a limit to how many major

things you can dedicate your life to at once. And it's true that a good leader

knows how to assign others to do the best job in their place. But " mothering "

cannot be assigned I feel it has to be the mom. And special needs kids need a

lot more mothering. There's no arguing that.

I think what we're arguing here about is that while in others Palin has given

rise to hope and admiration, in me and a few others who have also voiced their

doubts, it appears to be an irreconcilable dilemma. I cringe and wonder how she

plans to do it all... even just the governor position, never mind the presidency

and possible vice presidency.

And I know there are different parenting models. After all for decades certain

upper crust families swore boarding school was best for their children and it

may well have been or be for some. But from what Palin says she's not that kind

of mom, to fully delegate others to do her job. So I fail to see how she will

manage. And again, I wouldn't give it a second thought if I wasn't being asked

to consider her as a vice president candidate.

-Elena

September 3, 2008

I'm not supposed to comment but I just wanted to tell you, " Well said. "

From: elmccann <elmccann (DOT) com>

Subject: Re:[childrensapraxi anet] Re: Palin's choice puts her under 20%

@groups. com

Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 10:05 AM

>. . .the child is barely 4 months old! I just don't know that a

father could possibly replace the 'mother-child' bond that needs to

take place during the first year of life.

So, if a mother dies during childbirth, the father should give the baby

up for adoption because he doesn't stand a

chance?

------------ --------- --------- ------

September 3, 2008

As a Stay at home, Homeschooling mom of 8, OBVIOUSLY I feel that the

mother's presence in the children's lives is pivotal and vital, but who here is

to

say that she doesn't have that connection with h er children when she's not

working?

There are so many working women out there that realize that it's NOT always

about the quantity of time spent, but the quality and making that HEART

connection with the children in the time that you have available. Maybe she

makes

the most of that time?

Here's a question for you-- with your work scenario below-- you mentioned

that you didn't like what you saw. But what if you DID like what you saw when

your daughter was in someone else's care during the day? What changed things

for you is the fact that somewhere along the line of your career, the standard

of care for your children decreased and you didn't like it, so it changed

things for you. But what if that standard had remained intact or had improved

through the years, where would you be now? Would you have still chosen to quit

work if things were still all going so well? Just curious

Palin might just have an amazing support system which would enable her

to be an amazing wife, mother AND working mother. She might even have a

great system set up where her kids are taken care of and all their needs are

met-- so why would that make her any " worse " than any other working mother out

there.

Someone here mentioned that things should be re-evaluated (especially with

special needs kids), but I took a little offense to that statement, because it

sounds exactly what I've been saying about ALL CHILDREN-- and with working

mothers in general for years. I don't see how a child without special needs

is any less " worthy " than a special needs child and why the mother's presence

isn't JUST as needed at home. Again--- this seems like an inconsistency and

almost as though women are trying to justify things in order to make it ok

for women to work outside of the home. Can we STOP trying to justify one way

or another and just realize that while it may not be OUR choice-- it's not our

business and it's not our life to run. When we try to justify out own

circumstances and then turn around and judge others in their circumstances--- I

think it just makes us all look like a bunch of Bitties!

Becky-- who will shut up now!

2008 9:02:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, imyconsulting@... writes:

wasn't a VP but at 30, I was an IT Director for a large healthcare org and

the first and only ethnic. I thought I had arrived and I just knew in a few

short years, I would be CIO then CEO; I was blazing in my career. After about

six months on the job, I took an early lunch break and went to see my

daughter at school and I didn't like what I saw. So, I went back to my brand

new

office and typed up my resignation on my brand new laptop because in spite of

all the money i spent on therapy my daughter was unhappy and had not improved

one bit.

I didn't work for 1 1/2 years and when I started back, I worked from home,

in the middle of the night. I can't even begin to explain how my presence and

connection with my daughter has helped her in this recovery process. (Shoot,

I think everybody in this group understands that their presence has been

key.)

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September 3, 2008

EXCUSE ME?

Holy cow-- I am sitting here with my jaw on the floor just not

understanding where this comment is coming from

Are you actually equating the killing of an innocent child with working? You

ask " what's so good about it when you're not there "

????? Are you serious????

What's so good about not ABORTING your child?? Hmm, where to I possibly

begin with this?

For one-- it's not a child's fault for having down's syndrome-- so why kill

him in the first place? The concept that it's ok to kill an innocent child

just because they aren't considered the norm, spits in the face of everything

good and right and moral.

I don't care who doesn't like this woman, and I could care less if anyone

refuses to vote for the Republican ticket now because she's on the ticket, but

to say what good is not killing your own child when you're not there-- that's

just wrong.

What about all those single mothers out there who choose not to abort and

they work full-time. Would you ask what good that was also? I mean-- where is

the line to draw in a child being worth of a life?

Of course it's a good thing that she didn't abort her baby-- and I would

vote for ANYONE for that fact alone, because it says that they not only say

their beliefs, but they LIVE and BREATH it --- rhetoric -free

and I can't think of many politicians these days that can say the same thing

arrrrrgh--

becky

In a message dated 8/31/2008 10:59:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

imyconsulting@... writes:

They are pushing that she made the right choice and did not abort her child

after she found out her child had down syndrome; what's so good about it when

you're not there

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September 3, 2008

ummm are you realizing she's just RECENTLY had this baby who is only 4 mos

old?? Of course she didn't bring this into her Gov job if it wasn't in her

life at that time. Don't you think that she's just now realizing the need to

make it important because she now LIVES this?

Becky

In a message dated 8/31/2008 10:59:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

imyconsulting@... writes:

Someone made a comment about how hopefully Palin will bring attention to

Special Needs children; she didn't bring attention to the

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September 3, 2008

But see-- this is where you lost me with your " reasoning "

You're willing to vote for OBama and Biden who have *LESS* experience than

Palin?

I mean-- seriously think about this for a minute-- you're holding her, a

VICE PRESIDENT candidate, to the same level as the President??? OBama has less

experience and yet you'd be willing to vote for him for President, right?

She's only ont he VP ticket-- not the POTUS, so why the inconsistency of who

you'd vote for?

I mean, if you dont' like her-- fine-- but you're not voting for her for

Presidency-- and honestly, who's going to TRULY be voting for Biden-- the man's

a dope (sorry lol)-- Both POTUS Candidates should have chosen better

running mates-- that's easy to see, But truth be told, the VP job isn't all

that

much and we all know that the POTUS is the main man running the show

bek

In a message dated 9/1/2008 4:01:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

edanaila@... writes:

Yes, I know I'm biased and it's her choice of course but the American people

will need to decide if they can entrust such responsibility to a person with

so little experience in the first place, and such a heavy family burden on

top of it all

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September 3, 2008

Ok-- so asking another question here-- but what is this really saying about

those here who are working mothers? They are doing all of this that you said

below-- are they wasting their children's lives?

Your words are so harsh and judgemental and I don't think you realize it.

I'm not a working mother and I can clearly hear the judgement in your tone of

emails-- I cannot imagine what the working mothers here are feeling when they

read these words.

OUCH is all I can say

becky

In a message dated 9/1/2008 4:01:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

edanaila@... writes:

Before I had children it was different, and I'm sure I may go back to that

independence of mind when she's all grown up and on her own, but now at 4

years of age and in such great need of special interventions and intense work

outside of school and therapy hours, I cannot imagine thinking of trying to

" save or run the world " on top of it all. I just can't imagine where my

daughter

would be had she been taken to day care at an early age and just left

with whatever Early Intervention and the school Dsitrict wanted to provide

for her and without the special diet and supplements if I had made the

decision to return to my career as noble as it may have been since I was

previously

working in non-profit development. A life is a terrible thing to waste...

and as parents our children's lives are our primary concern.

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September 3, 2008

But I ask this in all sincerity-- why on earth would anyone sit and compare

their life to hers? What good will that do and will that really give anyone a

balanced judgement of what their life means?

becky

In a message dated 9/1/2008 6:06:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

edanaila@... writes:

We want more recognition of their needs and our efforts, not less. It seems

to me that when we hear that this woman can do it all and more, it actually

says something about our children not needing all we do and ask for in their

name and when in our hearts we know that they need even more but we can't

give it it does press a button indeed. So this is where the

conflict is, it's not her being a working mom, or career woman or being a

good or bad mom. Her choices are hers alone, but we react to the implications

they have for ours, and the struggles we go though that leave us exhausted at

the end of the day regretting that we couldn't do even more and wondering

where else we could turn to to better meet their needs.

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September 3, 2008

I'm just going to ask that you at least realize that yes, you ARE indeed

judging her-- very harshly in fact. If you really don't see that-- I'm

surprised, but YES, the words have been judging her every decision.

If you're going to judge-- that's fine-- but at least call it for what it

is, please and don't say " I'm not judging....I'm just thinking what the

potential implications are for my child's needs " .

If you really are just thinking about the potential implications are for

your child's needs-- have you ALSO sat here and considered all that Biden would

offer (or NOT offer, I should say) for your child's needs?

Truth be told--probably not

I think it's ok to judge-- as long as we, ourselves are willing to withstand

that same judgement when given to us.

Becky

In a message dated 9/1/2008 6:06:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

edanaila@... writes:

And I'm not judging her, I'm just thinking what

the potential implications are for ,e. for my child's needs.

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September 3, 2008

I might add that Shriver, in my opinion has always been someone who

has TRIED to have it all, and at the same time. I can't say that I would take

her words to mean much for me--

oh well

Becky

In a message dated 9/1/2008 8:32:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

edanaila@... writes:

As

Shriver so aptly put it; (I paraphrase since I don't have the

exact quote). Woman can have it all;

just not all at once. "

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September 3, 2008

Of course it will--- but that doesn't mean it will be a negative thing.

Becky

In a message dated 9/1/2008 11:14:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

lisamlivingston@... writes:

Though none of the kids may affect her role as potential VP, I assure you

that being VP WILL affect her parenting. Get real people, if you think it will

not.

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September 3, 2008

I think this EVERY time I have Asa at OT and PT. These women there are

leaving their own children in daycare in order to help mine. I can't tell you

how

much guilt that gives me-- and I am truly thankful for them

But-- truth be told, I would be more blessed to know they were able to stay

at home and enjoy their kids as I am with mine.

Becky

In a message dated 9/2/2008 8:37:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

searcy33@... writes:

What about the wonderful therapists who have special needs children of

their own??

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September 3, 2008

I am absolutely shocked and dismayed to read this statistic. Can that be

possibly true?

How utterly sad-- that's all I can say

How many precious children our lives are missing if that's the case.

Becky

In a message dated 9/2/2008 1:27:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

kiddietalk@... writes:

when I read the stat that said 80% would abort a Down Syndrome baby

**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel

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September 3, 2008

I wonder how many people here who are saying something like this statement

below voted for Bill Clinton for the office of PRESIDENT when it was obvious

that his moral character was seriously faulty, and yet they judge this woman so

harshly for the choices she's made and she's only running for VP

I'm shaking my head at the inconsistency

Becky

In a message dated 9/2/2008 9:32:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ed

anaila@... writes:

However, the fact remains this woman is asking me for her vote, and I will

judge her and her actions much more critically than if she were just another

career woman--in which case I wouldn't judge her at all, it would be none of

my business.

**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel

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September 3, 2008

Of course not-- and this is inconsistent, to be sure.

If ever there was a family to worry about-- it was the Kennedy clan-- they

seriously needed help and yet people thought they were " da bomb " back then

bek

In a message dated 9/1/2008 10:42:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

elmccann@... writes:

Did

anyone care about JFK having very young children while in office?

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September 4, 2008

From: tbniesh@... <tbniesh@...>

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Palin's choice puts her under 20%

Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 12:30 AM