RE: Floppy baby sign?/Janice

[Guest guest]

Hi Janice,

I don't know how his arms and hands are? I mean, I don't know how to evaluate

this myself. No one around me seems to know anything, either.....Doctors aren't

trained.....OT thinks he fabulous and highly cooridinated, but I feel like

there's areas/things that need to be addressed. I've ordered a few books with

exercises, and I'm still looking around for information.

For example, he NEVER sat on my hip, and still won't (if I need to carry him)

unless I ask him to " hold on " . I sometimes lift him out of his carseat (gets so

distracted when getting out of the car), and he's completely unaware of his

legs, it seems. He doesn't coordinate the movements with my lifting, so his

legs get " dragged " out. His arms and legs are skinny, but he's three, too. He

can cut with scissors very, very well. He and I did an apple art/craft the

other day. It entailed having him cut out two big apples, and a couple of other

things. He was able to cut on the lines, and turn the apple around as he's

cutting.....with a little direction from me from time to time.....but for the

most part, he nearly independent. But, I've allowed him to use scissors since

he was 2. He used plastic scissors to cut playdough, and another " child proof "

pair that I let him use in the backyard to cut grass. I often let him use the

hole punch which strengthens fingers/hands, and I have him do the arm hang at

the park as much as possible. I try to implement a lot of stuff, but I don't

have any specific plan. Other things that give me concern is that he's still

somewhat clumsy, and goes through phases where he falls a little more than

" usual " , especially on carpet.....he doesn't feel a lot of pain, either (no

tears during blood draws, can walk over sharp rocks). But he's one of the

fastest, three year old runners I've ever seen. He's recently gotten into doing

flips, so he does forward rolls off the couch into cushins, or jumps onto the

couch and does a flip. It's kinda a mystery, sometimes.

He still has all the oral motor stuff to deal with. He's finally lateralizing

and lifting his tongue, but he can't do it on verbal command. He needs the

physical prompting (touch). But this is a lot of progress, because he couldn't

move his tongue AT ALL before. He's also wiping his mouth more at meal

time.....also new. I've order the book on oral motor exercises by

Rosenthal (or something like that), and I've placed an order for bite

blocks and whistles. He doesn't move his mouth much when he talks.....doesn't

open his mouth much. When the SLP tested him on the bite blocks two weeks ago,

he couldn't get past the first level. I guess we've got some work ahead of us.

BUT he's made a TON, and I do mean a TON of progress in one year. He basically

went from about four babble words to talking in one year. We'll get there.

We'll just keep working and working and working.

One more thing.....I do my own version of digit spans, as you probably already

know. He's around a 2 - 3. He was a 3, but slipped back a little recently. He

gets some threes, but most are twos. I plan to do these a bit more frequently,

now.

Thanks

@...: jscott@...: Fri, 5

Sep 2008 12:13:59 -0700Subject: Re: [ ] Floppy baby sign?

Lots and lots of core strength building.... ugh.... takes 'forever', it

seems. Particularly when you had to do every single body part like we did. Its a

lot.... mouth, tongue, lips, cheek, jaw, throat, foot (shows as pronation),

ankles, lower leg, upper leg (still a little weak) fingers, hands, wrists, lower

arms, upper arms, chest, stomach......So you try to do exercises that work whole

body groups. ie. squats and lifts with a medicine ball work the entire leg, the

torso and the arms. The torso seems to gain strength and stability the

fastest.How are Eli's hands and arms?Arms and hands have taken a long, long time

for us. Right now, Marks' arms look kind of funny. His lower arm now has regular

muscle tone but his upper arm is still that very thin, low toned stick. So, he

lower arm is thicker then his upper arm! We had a good chuckle about it the othe

week when Mark commented on his 'freaky' looking arms. The boy has a sense of

humour about it all at least! So, we work the push-ups and the chin ups to even

this out and build that tone. I even have him play tug-a-war with our very

strong dog, a Boxer, to work his wrists and his hands some more..... play time

for the both of them!JaniceMother of Mark, 13 [sPAM]Re: [ ] Re: Palin's choice puts her under

20%Well-- not playing the devil's advocate here-- but keep in mind that1. he was

sleeping for the better portion of the night so would be floppyand2. Is still

only 4 mos old, and definitely would be

floppybek__________________________________________________________See how

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portions of this message have been

removed]------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Oh ....

You hit the GOLD MINE.... if your boy is cutting so proficiently at the age

of 3..... it sounds as though you have avoided the horrid hand issues that

keeps back adult dyspraxics from funtioning at top levels. Because, that is

the item that seems to 'stick', the lack of hand control, motor planning,

small muscle groups, etc. Some adults that I have read about have overcome

this problem but many more have not. So.... a BIG congrats on this one!

But, do keep propelling him forward and do continue with the arts & crafts

because it is great to be ahead in some things before school. Begin

teaching him other fine motor skills as well such as buttons, tying knots

with string, zippers, dressing skills, etc. Because he is rotating the

apple around as he cuts, it sounds as though his visual motor skills are

doing well too! So..... I like what your telling me for little Eli's

hands! Brings tears to my eyes that he doesn't have this..... so thrilled

for you. Because you're a teacher, you will know how to slowly increase his

progress through time and to ensure that he doesn't stall or plateau. If he

can perform manual functions better then others, it will give him an edge

before he enters school. Our kids often need 'something' that they can

excel at and this really helps with self-esteem should his speech still be a

work in progress at that time.

He does sound that he could possibly be a tad weak in his legs..... upper

legs particularly and I am wondering about his low sensory with regards to

pain. We did deep pressure to stimulate Mark's sense of pain/touch/feeling

and I must say that it works very well. I also hear that brushing along

with joint compressions work well for this too.

But..... let me illustrate how Mark's sense of touch was compromised. One

year while we were out at the lake, our neighbour had anchored a buoy in the

area close to our beach where the boys would swim and play. The other boys

(all of them younger then Mark at that time) knew instinctively that the

anchor was sharp. (We adults were unaware of this.) Thus, they stayed away

from it. Mark didn't. He ended up slicing through his toe very badly and

had to be taken to hospital. The thing is..... he didn't even realize at

first that he had nearly sliced his toe off. It took about 5 minutes or so

for that pain to register and for the howls to come. Then came the usual

trip to the hospital for us! (We spent a lot of time at the Emergency room

with Mark when he was little.....)

So, if you were to put Eli's hand in a bucket filled with ice-cold water,

would he feel it pretty quickly? Does he have a good take on really hot

temperatures? Can he discriminate? If you give him a good hard pinch,

would he pull away and 'feel' it? There is sometimes a difference between a

lack of feeling of pain and ignoring pain because you are having too much

fun playing to be overly bothered by it!

With regards to gross motor..... let me illustrate the 'difference' between

Mark and Eli at around this same age. Up until about the age of 5, Mark

could not stop from a run, he couldn't do it and so had to fall to the

ground in order to stop himself. When swinging beside his older sister, he

would observe her jumping forward from the swing and landing on her feet on

the ground. My heart literally stopped when Mark tried to copy her; his

lack of 'understanding' of motor planning caused him to literally propel

himself backwards from the swing.... you can imagine 'that' disaster! He

had no 'sense' of where his body was; that instinctive reflex that we all

have which tells us to throw out our hands to protect ourselves or to

roll..... seemed to be missing. There was an awkwardness to his movements

and he had zero agility. There is a difference between 'developing' motor

skills and a complete lack of understanding of where your body is in space.

Eli seems to be 'experimenting' with his body when he does rolls and flips

and jumps and leaps. Does he crash and burn? Yes but this is a very normal

part of development and boys do tend to be more vigorous and foolhardy as

they learn, experiment and develop their bodies. So while he may not be as

coordinated as they come as of yet, he is in the process of 'learning' this

act. Things to ask yourself are: Can he hop on one foot? Can he walk

forward heel to toe? Backwards heel to toe? A fun game that works hand to

eye along with body positioning is to get a couple of old badminton rackets,

blow up a balloon and bat it back and forth between the two of you. It's

great fun (I used to have a blast doing this with Mark), easy to do since

the balloon moves so slowly and wonderful for developing racket skills, golf

skills, batting skills..... you know.... all of those hand-to-eye sports

that he will want to be a SuperStar in later down the road. You can start

just using a balloon with your hands but do incorporate the racket later on

and you'll be sure to have a star hitter on the baseball team!

When Mark was about 3.5, I actually started him snow skiing! People thought

that I was crazy as the kid could barely walk but there was something about

the sensory feedback that his body received while zooming down a hill that

could not be replicated any other way. Today, of course, he is a wonderful

skier but still prefers to ski without poles..... those hands again.... and

this year I am determined that he will ski with poles!

From the things that you have written, it does sound as though Eli's

condition is limited to apraxia of speech. Of course, I am not a

professional and Eli is not sitting here in front of me. In addition, let

us remember that Eli is only 3 and has a lot of milestones/development to go

through at this time. But it really doesn't sound as though he is delayed

with regards to gross motor and fine motor one bit. Keep an eye on his

sensitivity (ie. lack of pain) but I wouldn't get overly wrapped up in it as

he seems to be doing pretty well with regards to his skill development.

You seem to be out of the woods on the global issues, girlfriend, and for

that I am so so happy for you!

So.... focus on his face. Remember cheeks, jaw, throat, vellum, lips and

tongue. I like Rosenthal and her approach to oral motor. Do

keep doing the sequences with Eli as it just seems that auditory issues are

so often comorbid with the speech issues.

With regards to sequences and digit spans, I was reading A. Lane's

book, " Developing Ocular Motor and Visual Perceptual Skills " just yesterday

and it was interesting to note the following. He states that kids cannot

adequately store verbal information into their long term memories which are

multi-syllabic until their working memories and short term memories are at a

certain level. He relates increased complex speech (word formation)to digit

spans and the increase of working memory. He also relates the ability to

read words of increased complexity, ie. longer words which are

multi-syllabic to increased visual digit spans. (yes, he has a ton of visual

sequencing exercises in this book) It is his contention that unless this

feedback loop is working correctly and the working memory is at certain

levels, we are simply unable to progress past a certain point to developing

word recognition of multi-syllabic material. I don't know if I have

explained this adequately but I certainly do agree with his words:

increased ability to sequence does indeed lead to more complex speech at

every level. I truly have experienced this with Mark.

Hope this gives you a little feedback....

Janice

Mother of Mark, 13

RE: [ ] Floppy baby sign?/Janice

Hi Janice,

I don't know how his arms and hands are? I mean, I don't know how to

evaluate this myself. No one around me seems to know anything,

either.....Doctors aren't trained.....OT thinks he fabulous and highly

cooridinated, but I feel like there's areas/things that need to be

addressed. I've ordered a few books with exercises, and I'm still looking

around for information.

For example, he NEVER sat on my hip, and still won't (if I need to carry

him) unless I ask him to " hold on " . I sometimes lift him out of his carseat

(gets so distracted when getting out of the car), and he's completely

unaware of his legs, it seems. He doesn't coordinate the movements with my

lifting, so his legs get " dragged " out. His arms and legs are skinny, but

he's three, too. He can cut with scissors very, very well. He and I did an

apple art/craft the other day. It entailed having him cut out two big

apples, and a couple of other things. He was able to cut on the lines, and

turn the apple around as he's cutting.....with a little direction from me

from time to time.....but for the most part, he nearly independent. But,

I've allowed him to use scissors since he was 2. He used plastic scissors

to cut playdough, and another " child proof " pair that I let him use in the

backyard to cut grass. I often let him use the hole punch which strengthens

fingers/hands, and I have him do the arm hang at the park as much as

possible. I try to implement a lot of stuff, but I don't have any specific

plan. Other things that give me concern is that he's still somewhat clumsy,

and goes through phases where he falls a little more than " usual " ,

especially on carpet.....he doesn't feel a lot of pain, either (no tears

during blood draws, can walk over sharp rocks). But he's one of the

fastest, three year old runners I've ever seen. He's recently gotten into

doing flips, so he does forward rolls off the couch into cushins, or jumps

onto the couch and does a flip. It's kinda a mystery, sometimes.

He still has all the oral motor stuff to deal with. He's finally

lateralizing and lifting his tongue, but he can't do it on verbal command.

He needs the physical prompting (touch). But this is a lot of progress,

because he couldn't move his tongue AT ALL before. He's also wiping his

mouth more at meal time.....also new. I've order the book on oral motor

exercises by Rosenthal (or something like that), and I've

placed an order for bite blocks and whistles. He doesn't move his mouth

much when he talks.....doesn't open his mouth much. When the SLP tested him

on the bite blocks two weeks ago, he couldn't get past the first level. I

guess we've got some work ahead of us. BUT he's made a TON, and I do mean a

TON of progress in one year. He basically went from about four babble words

to talking in one year. We'll get there. We'll just keep working and

working and working.

One more thing.....I do my own version of digit spans, as you probably

already know. He's around a 2 - 3. He was a 3, but slipped back a little

recently. He gets some threes, but most are twos. I plan to do these a bit

more frequently, now.

Thanks

[Guest guest]

Hi Janice,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I love the snow skiing idea. I live near Lake Tahoe, so skiing is definitely on

our 'to-do " list.....but never thought to start so early. If he can withstand

the sensory issues that come with being cold/wet.....then he'll be on skis this

winter!

Yes, I was very happy to see such good cutting. This was the first time I'd

asked him to cut on lines. As I said, he's been cutting forever, but never

" formally " .....I just let him cut paper, grass, whatever. When I started the

project, I actually had to answer the phone, and I left him alone to start

without me. While on the phone, I thought, " well.....I wonder what kind of mess

I'm in for when I return to the playroom " . But -- when I returned, he was doing

an amazing job.

Thanks for the deep pressure and brushing suggestions. I've asked my OT about

brushing, but she's never followed up with exercises. I'll ask again. And,

yes.....I think he does have upper leg weakness.....as well as trunk weakness.

It's very difficult for him to sit up. I'd always attributed that to him " being

a big boy " .

He can jump, but he can't skip or hop on one leg. He also cannot walk heel to

toe frontward or backward. I've been trying to practice hopscotch with

him.....maybe I should increase the hopping, and I'll do the balloon badmitton

game. I've been doing badmitton with bean bags, but they're just too heavy, and

I'm the one doing the exercise.....he just runs after the bean bags.

As usual, I'm open to all suggestions.

@...: jscott@...: Sat, 6

Sep 2008 09:29:01 -0700Subject: Re: [ ] Floppy baby

sign?/Janice

Oh ....You hit the GOLD MINE.... if your boy is cutting so proficiently at

the age of 3..... it sounds as though you have avoided the horrid hand issues

that keeps back adult dyspraxics from funtioning at top levels. Because, that is

the item that seems to 'stick', the lack of hand control, motor planning, small

muscle groups, etc. Some adults that I have read about have overcome this

problem but many more have not. So.... a BIG congrats on this one! But, do keep

propelling him forward and do continue with the arts & crafts because it is

great to be ahead in some things before school. Begin teaching him other fine

motor skills as well such as buttons, tying knots with string, zippers, dressing

skills, etc. Because he is rotating the apple around as he cuts, it sounds as

though his visual motor skills are doing well too! So..... I like what your

telling me for little Eli's hands! Brings tears to my eyes that he doesn't have

this..... so thrilled for you. Because you're a teacher, you will know how to

slowly increase his progress through time and to ensure that he doesn't stall or

plateau. If he can perform manual functions better then others, it will give him

an edge before he enters school. Our kids often need 'something' that they can

excel at and this really helps with self-esteem should his speech still be a

work in progress at that time.He does sound that he could possibly be a tad weak

in his legs..... upper legs particularly and I am wondering about his low

sensory with regards to pain. We did deep pressure to stimulate Mark's sense of

pain/touch/feeling and I must say that it works very well. I also hear that

brushing along with joint compressions work well for this too.But..... let me

illustrate how Mark's sense of touch was compromised. One year while we were out

at the lake, our neighbour had anchored a buoy in the area close to our beach

where the boys would swim and play. The other boys (all of them younger then

Mark at that time) knew instinctively that the anchor was sharp. (We adults were

unaware of this.) Thus, they stayed away from it. Mark didn't. He ended up

slicing through his toe very badly and had to be taken to hospital. The thing

is..... he didn't even realize at first that he had nearly sliced his toe off.

It took about 5 minutes or so for that pain to register and for the howls to

come. Then came the usual trip to the hospital for us! (We spent a lot of time

at the Emergency room with Mark when he was little.....)So, if you were to put

Eli's hand in a bucket filled with ice-cold water, would he feel it pretty

quickly? Does he have a good take on really hot temperatures? Can he

discriminate? If you give him a good hard pinch, would he pull away and 'feel'

it? There is sometimes a difference between a lack of feeling of pain and

ignoring pain because you are having too much fun playing to be overly bothered

by it!With regards to gross motor..... let me illustrate the 'difference'

between Mark and Eli at around this same age. Up until about the age of 5, Mark

could not stop from a run, he couldn't do it and so had to fall to the ground in

order to stop himself. When swinging beside his older sister, he would observe

her jumping forward from the swing and landing on her feet on the ground. My

heart literally stopped when Mark tried to copy her; his lack of 'understanding'

of motor planning caused him to literally propel himself backwards from the

swing.... you can imagine 'that' disaster! He had no 'sense' of where his body

was; that instinctive reflex that we all have which tells us to throw out our

hands to protect ourselves or to roll..... seemed to be missing. There was an

awkwardness to his movements and he had zero agility. There is a difference

between 'developing' motor skills and a complete lack of understanding of where

your body is in space. Eli seems to be 'experimenting' with his body when he

does rolls and flips and jumps and leaps. Does he crash and burn? Yes but this

is a very normal part of development and boys do tend to be more vigorous and

foolhardy as they learn, experiment and develop their bodies. So while he may

not be as coordinated as they come as of yet, he is in the process of 'learning'

this act. Things to ask yourself are: Can he hop on one foot? Can he walk

forward heel to toe? Backwards heel to toe? A fun game that works hand to eye

along with body positioning is to get a couple of old badminton rackets, blow up

a balloon and bat it back and forth between the two of you. It's great fun (I

used to have a blast doing this with Mark), easy to do since the balloon moves

so slowly and wonderful for developing racket skills, golf skills, batting

skills..... you know.... all of those hand-to-eye sports that he will want to be

a SuperStar in later down the road. You can start just using a balloon with your

hands but do incorporate the racket later on and you'll be sure to have a star

hitter on the baseball team!When Mark was about 3.5, I actually started him snow

skiing! People thought that I was crazy as the kid could barely walk but there

was something about the sensory feedback that his body received while zooming

down a hill that could not be replicated any other way. Today, of course, he is

a wonderful skier but still prefers to ski without poles..... those hands

again.... and this year I am determined that he will ski with poles!From the

things that you have written, it does sound as though Eli's condition is limited

to apraxia of speech. Of course, I am not a professional and Eli is not sitting

here in front of me. In addition, let us remember that Eli is only 3 and has a

lot of milestones/development to go through at this time. But it really doesn't

sound as though he is delayed with regards to gross motor and fine motor one

bit. Keep an eye on his sensitivity (ie. lack of pain) but I wouldn't get overly

wrapped up in it as he seems to be doing pretty well with regards to his skill

development.You seem to be out of the woods on the global issues, girlfriend,

and for that I am so so happy for you!So.... focus on his face. Remember cheeks,

jaw, throat, vellum, lips and tongue. I like Rosenthal and her

approach to oral motor. Do keep doing the sequences with Eli as it just seems

that auditory issues are so often comorbid with the speech issues.With regards

to sequences and digit spans, I was reading A. Lane's book, " Developing

Ocular Motor and Visual Perceptual Skills " just yesterday and it was interesting

to note the following. He states that kids cannot adequately store verbal

information into their long term memories which are multi-syllabic until their

working memories and short term memories are at a certain level. He relates

increased complex speech (word formation)to digit spans and the increase of

working memory. He also relates the ability to read words of increased

complexity, ie. longer words which are multi-syllabic to increased visual digit

spans. (yes, he has a ton of visual sequencing exercises in this book) It is his

contention that unless this feedback loop is working correctly and the working

memory is at certain levels, we are simply unable to progress past a certain

point to developing word recognition of multi-syllabic material. I don't know if

I have explained this adequately but I certainly do agree with his words:

increased ability to sequence does indeed lead to more complex speech at every

level. I truly have experienced this with Mark.Hope this gives you a little

feedback....JaniceMother of Mark, 13

_________________________________________________________________

See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go.

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[Guest guest]

,

For upper legs and torso, heavy lifting is extremely beneficial. So.....

have him help you push that vaccum through the house. Have him help you

carry groceries in (no breakables) the house from the car and take out the

garbage. Any opportunities for him to lift that arise throughout your

day.... use it as an opportunity for him to work his muscles. Again squats

and lifts of a weighted object are very good for core stability. Swimming

as an extra-curricular activity might help him as well with core muscle

tone.

RE: [ ] Floppy baby sign?/Janice

Hi Janice,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I love the snow skiing idea. I live near Lake Tahoe, so skiing is

definitely on our 'to-do " list.....but never thought to start so early. If

he can withstand the sensory issues that come with being cold/wet.....then

he'll be on skis this winter!

Yes, I was very happy to see such good cutting. This was the first time I'd

asked him to cut on lines. As I said, he's been cutting forever, but never

" formally " .....I just let him cut paper, grass, whatever. When I started

the project, I actually had to answer the phone, and I left him alone to

start without me. While on the phone, I thought, " well.....I wonder what

kind of mess I'm in for when I return to the playroom " . But -- when I

returned, he was doing an amazing job.

Thanks for the deep pressure and brushing suggestions. I've asked my OT

about brushing, but she's never followed up with exercises. I'll ask again.

And, yes.....I think he does have upper leg weakness.....as well as trunk

weakness. It's very difficult for him to sit up. I'd always attributed

that to him " being a big boy " .

He can jump, but he can't skip or hop on one leg. He also cannot walk heel

to toe frontward or backward. I've been trying to practice hopscotch with

him.....maybe I should increase the hopping, and I'll do the balloon

badmitton game. I've been doing badmitton with bean bags, but they're just

too heavy, and I'm the one doing the exercise.....he just runs after the

bean bags.

As usual, I'm open to all suggestions.