Re: Anyone thought of using a T.E.N.S. machine on facial muscles?

[Guest guest]

I actually found on the web that some have used that for low tone in face and

apraxia!!! I am cnsidering this since I have a TENS machine. just wish I could

be guided by a doctor with experience in this.

>

> I have a TENS machine, and it just occurred to me that this may be helpful in

stimulating the nerves on the face for my son.

> Has anyone done this?

> Just a thought.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I know you asked about this twice now -but nobody answered because this

isn't something most have done or will ever do. I may be the only person in the

group who has had anything like this type of therapy done on my son -and it

wasn't with the T E N S machine -it was with Vital Stim http://www.vitalstim.com

and it was done under Dr. Renai Jonas...we tried it a few times and we did

notice improvement to Tanner's oral apraxia..however it was temporary and I

wasn't going to keep shocking my child's face.

Below is an archive about this and other multisensory therapies that HAVE been

helpful...I would include Vital Stim as worth exploring on the back burner if

one has the time and money -after you do the other approaches.

Re: PROMPT therapists

I'm not sure if those of you seeking PROMPT therapists are aware

that the best approach for children with apraxia is a multifaceted

approach...and PROMPT (or touch cue) would just be one part of that

approach. (the brain responds to multiple stimuli)

What about the brilliant Kaufman technique? Do you get the Kaufman

approach with PROMPT? Please stop and analyze that proven

technique ...and what about oral motor approaches as well as other

multisensory approaches? (auditory etc.)

The Kaufman Children's Center http://www.kidspeech.com incorporates

all aspects of therapy and that's why I highly respect

Kaufman -the creator of the Kaufman technique. I don't want to

discourage anyone from seeking a PROMPT therapist...but want to

raise awareness to seek those therapists who have more than one

thing to pull from their bag of tricks to help your child learn to

talk. Each child is unique and some goals may require a different

method. Seek a therapist that is open to new techniques -that

doesn't believe that they are all that and that's it. That's the

type of therapist I seek anyway. Like just today Tanner was exposed

to Vital Stim with his therapist Dr. Renai Jonas. It's been working

for children who have low tone in the face and is FDA approved.

http://www.vitalstim.com/

I saw a difference in Tanner's face -the one side of his mouth she

tried it on was lifted up -it was incredible!!! Not that Tanner

looks unusual -but he has the typical Tanner face most of the time

we call it. When he's tired especially he looks a bit sad -and

expressionless. It's when his oral apraxia shows the most. You can

see the classic Tanner face at the bottom of the page here where my

husband Glenn is holding Tanner. http://www.cherab.org/news.html

Thing is that Tanner who still has mild sensory issues feels the

electo-stimulation as pain and started crying almost as soon as we

started -so we had to stop. I let Dr. Jonas put it on my face to

show Tanner that I'd do it and it is the funniest thing! You lose

control of your face as the muscles tighten up -we all started

laughing when I tried to control my face and stop my eye from

twitching. I had it on level 9 for about 30 minutes and was talking

on the phone and drinking water/chewing gum (you are supposed to

fight against the tension) and Tanner saw that I was just fine with

it -in fact after a bit it felt like a massage. (There is some

belief this may have some face lifting benefits so I said we can try

it on me again...and again...and again! Keep you posted on that!

Talk about added bonus to therapy time! Therapy and a face lift all

in one!)

For Tanner we tried it 3 more times -each for less then a minute.

But Tanner's willing to try again. I'm a believer that's for sure.

I just love those therapists who are good at what they do...and yet

are willing to consider other techniques.

Here's an archive on this from 2003 prior to a conference we had in

NC that brought various experts in apraxia ( Kaufman, M.A.,

CCC/SLP , Sara Rosenfeld- M.S., CCC/SLP, and PROMPT was

represented too as well as others. As far as I know it's the first

time that all three approaches came together in one room to talk

about apraxia. But thankfully and Sara took that information

and ran with it...what about PROMPT...again do you get Kaufman and

oral motor with PROMPT?)

Both and Sara are advisors to CHERAB and Speechville;

http://www.cherab.org/information/speechlanguage/advisoryboard.html

=====

[Guest guest]

I checked it out and it looks much the same as the TENS I got from a

chiropractor years ago.

Do you know if insurance covers the device?

>

> I know you asked about this twice now -but nobody answered because this

isn't something most have done or will ever do. I may be the only person in the

group who has had anything like this type of therapy done on my son -and it

wasn't with the T E N S machine -it was with Vital Stim http://www.vitalstim.com

and it was done under Dr. Renai Jonas...we tried it a few times and we did

notice improvement to Tanner's oral apraxia..however it was temporary and I

wasn't going to keep shocking my child's face.

>

> Below is an archive about this and other multisensory therapies that HAVE been

helpful...I would include Vital Stim as worth exploring on the back burner if

one has the time and money -after you do the other approaches.

>

>

> Re: PROMPT therapists

>

> I'm not sure if those of you seeking PROMPT therapists are aware

> that the best approach for children with apraxia is a multifaceted

> approach...and PROMPT (or touch cue) would just be one part of that

> approach. (the brain responds to multiple stimuli)

>

> What about the brilliant Kaufman technique? Do you get the Kaufman

> approach with PROMPT? Please stop and analyze that proven

> technique ...and what about oral motor approaches as well as other

> multisensory approaches? (auditory etc.)

>

> The Kaufman Children's Center http://www.kidspeech.com incorporates

> all aspects of therapy and that's why I highly respect

> Kaufman -the creator of the Kaufman technique. I don't want to

> discourage anyone from seeking a PROMPT therapist...but want to

> raise awareness to seek those therapists who have more than one

> thing to pull from their bag of tricks to help your child learn to

> talk. Each child is unique and some goals may require a different

> method. Seek a therapist that is open to new techniques -that

> doesn't believe that they are all that and that's it. That's the

> type of therapist I seek anyway. Like just today Tanner was exposed

> to Vital Stim with his therapist Dr. Renai Jonas. It's been working

> for children who have low tone in the face and is FDA approved.

> http://www.vitalstim.com/

>

> I saw a difference in Tanner's face -the one side of his mouth she

> tried it on was lifted up -it was incredible!!! Not that Tanner

> looks unusual -but he has the typical Tanner face most of the time

> we call it. When he's tired especially he looks a bit sad -and

> expressionless. It's when his oral apraxia shows the most. You can

> see the classic Tanner face at the bottom of the page here where my

> husband Glenn is holding Tanner. http://www.cherab.org/news.html

>

> Thing is that Tanner who still has mild sensory issues feels the

> electo-stimulation as pain and started crying almost as soon as we

> started -so we had to stop. I let Dr. Jonas put it on my face to

> show Tanner that I'd do it and it is the funniest thing! You lose

> control of your face as the muscles tighten up -we all started

> laughing when I tried to control my face and stop my eye from

> twitching. I had it on level 9 for about 30 minutes and was talking

> on the phone and drinking water/chewing gum (you are supposed to

> fight against the tension) and Tanner saw that I was just fine with

> it -in fact after a bit it felt like a massage. (There is some

> belief this may have some face lifting benefits so I said we can try

> it on me again...and again...and again! Keep you posted on that!

> Talk about added bonus to therapy time! Therapy and a face lift all

> in one!)

>

> For Tanner we tried it 3 more times -each for less then a minute.

> But Tanner's willing to try again. I'm a believer that's for sure.

> I just love those therapists who are good at what they do...and yet

> are willing to consider other techniques.

>

> Here's an archive on this from 2003 prior to a conference we had in

> NC that brought various experts in apraxia ( Kaufman, M.A.,

> CCC/SLP , Sara Rosenfeld- M.S., CCC/SLP, and PROMPT was

> represented too as well as others. As far as I know it's the first

> time that all three approaches came together in one room to talk

> about apraxia. But thankfully and Sara took that information

> and ran with it...what about PROMPT...again do you get Kaufman and

> oral motor with PROMPT?)

>

> Both and Sara are advisors to CHERAB and Speechville;

> http://www.cherab.org/information/speechlanguage/advisoryboard.html

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

, insurance might cover it depending on the dx.I know you are not ever

supposed to put it on the spine.  You might ask a pt if it is safe to use on the

face.

 

 

sl

 

 

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which

it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged

material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking

of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other

than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please

contact the sender and delete the material from all computers.

Sharon Lang

From: <agirlnamedsuess@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: Anyone thought of using a T.E.N.S. machine on

facial muscles?

Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 8:52 PM

I checked it out and it looks much the same as the TENS I got from a

chiropractor years ago.

Do you know if insurance covers the device?

>

> I know you asked about this twice now -but nobody answered because this

isn't something most have done or will ever do. I may be the only person in the

group who has had anything like this type of therapy done on my son -and it

wasn't with the T E N S machine -it was with Vital Stim http://www.vitalsti

m.com and it was done under Dr. Renai Jonas...we tried it a few times and we did

notice improvement to Tanner's oral apraxia..however it was temporary and I

wasn't going to keep shocking my child's face.

>

> Below is an archive about this and other multisensory therapies that HAVE been

helpful...I would include Vital Stim as worth exploring on the back burner if

one has the time and money -after you do the other approaches.

>

>

> Re: PROMPT therapists

>

> I'm not sure if those of you seeking PROMPT therapists are aware

> that the best approach for children with apraxia is a multifaceted

> approach...and PROMPT (or touch cue) would just be one part of that

> approach. (the brain responds to multiple stimuli)

>

> What about the brilliant Kaufman technique? Do you get the Kaufman

> approach with PROMPT? Please stop and analyze that proven

> technique ...and what about oral motor approaches as well as other

> multisensory approaches? (auditory etc.)

>

> The Kaufman Children's Center http://www.kidspeec h.com incorporates

> all aspects of therapy and that's why I highly respect

> Kaufman -the creator of the Kaufman technique. I don't want to

> discourage anyone from seeking a PROMPT therapist... but want to

> raise awareness to seek those therapists who have more than one

> thing to pull from their bag of tricks to help your child learn to

> talk. Each child is unique and some goals may require a different

> method. Seek a therapist that is open to new techniques -that

> doesn't believe that they are all that and that's it. That's the

> type of therapist I seek anyway. Like just today Tanner was exposed

> to Vital Stim with his therapist Dr. Renai Jonas. It's been working

> for children who have low tone in the face and is FDA approved.

> http://www.vitalsti m.com/

>

> I saw a difference in Tanner's face -the one side of his mouth she

> tried it on was lifted up -it was incredible!! ! Not that Tanner

> looks unusual -but he has the typical Tanner face most of the time

> we call it. When he's tired especially he looks a bit sad -and

> expressionless. It's when his oral apraxia shows the most. You can

> see the classic Tanner face at the bottom of the page here where my

> husband Glenn is holding Tanner. http://www.cherab. org/news. html

>

> Thing is that Tanner who still has mild sensory issues feels the

> electo-stimulation as pain and started crying almost as soon as we

> started -so we had to stop. I let Dr. Jonas put it on my face to

> show Tanner that I'd do it and it is the funniest thing! You lose

> control of your face as the muscles tighten up -we all started

> laughing when I tried to control my face and stop my eye from

> twitching. I had it on level 9 for about 30 minutes and was talking

> on the phone and drinking water/chewing gum (you are supposed to

> fight against the tension) and Tanner saw that I was just fine with

> it -in fact after a bit it felt like a massage. (There is some

> belief this may have some face lifting benefits so I said we can try

> it on me again...and again...and again! Keep you posted on that!

> Talk about added bonus to therapy time! Therapy and a face lift all

> in one!)

>

> For Tanner we tried it 3 more times -each for less then a minute.

> But Tanner's willing to try again. I'm a believer that's for sure.

> I just love those therapists who are good at what they do...and yet

> are willing to consider other techniques.

>

> Here's an archive on this from 2003 prior to a conference we had in

> NC that brought various experts in apraxia ( Kaufman, M.A.,

> CCC/SLP , Sara Rosenfeld- M.S., CCC/SLP, and PROMPT was

> represented too as well as others. As far as I know it's the first

> time that all three approaches came together in one room to talk

> about apraxia. But thankfully and Sara took that information

> and ran with it...what about PROMPT...again do you get Kaufman and

> oral motor with PROMPT?)

>

> Both and Sara are advisors to CHERAB and Speechville;

> http://www.cherab. org/information/ speechlanguage/ advisoryboard. html

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

That is what I was thinking (about te insurance); should I ask his PCP? (Can't

decide who to ask, but I am going to pose the qustion to the ST Monday when she

comes.

Mine was used for my back on the muscles surrounding the spine.

I do know that you are NOT supposed to use it near the eyes or on the temples.

(That information was readily available online.)

Naturall, I would do it to my own face first and then see what level of

intensity was comfortable before doing it to his.

I did see where people do it for face lifts, but I do not need one of those yet.

LOL

> >

> > I know you asked about this twice now -but nobody answered because

this isn't something most have done or will ever do. I may be the only person in

the group who has had anything like this type of therapy done on my son -and it

wasn't with the T E N S machine -it was with Vital Stim http://www.vitalsti

m.com and it was done under Dr. Renai Jonas...we tried it a few times and we did

notice improvement to Tanner's oral apraxia..however it was temporary and I

wasn't going to keep shocking my child's face.

> >

> > Below is an archive about this and other multisensory therapies that HAVE

been helpful...I would include Vital Stim as worth exploring on the back burner

if one has the time and money -after you do the other approaches.

> >

> >

> > Re: PROMPT therapists

> >

> > I'm not sure if those of you seeking PROMPT therapists are aware

> > that the best approach for children with apraxia is a multifaceted

> > approach...and PROMPT (or touch cue) would just be one part of that

> > approach. (the brain responds to multiple stimuli)

> >

> > What about the brilliant Kaufman technique? Do you get the Kaufman

> > approach with PROMPT? Please stop and analyze that proven

> > technique ...and what about oral motor approaches as well as other

> > multisensory approaches? (auditory etc.)

> >

> > The Kaufman Children's Center http://www.kidspeec h.com incorporates

> > all aspects of therapy and that's why I highly respect

> > Kaufman -the creator of the Kaufman technique. I don't want to

> > discourage anyone from seeking a PROMPT therapist... but want to

> > raise awareness to seek those therapists who have more than one

> > thing to pull from their bag of tricks to help your child learn to

> > talk. Each child is unique and some goals may require a different

> > method. Seek a therapist that is open to new techniques -that

> > doesn't believe that they are all that and that's it. That's the

> > type of therapist I seek anyway. Like just today Tanner was exposed

> > to Vital Stim with his therapist Dr. Renai Jonas. It's been working

> > for children who have low tone in the face and is FDA approved.

> > http://www.vitalsti m.com/

> >

> > I saw a difference in Tanner's face -the one side of his mouth she

> > tried it on was lifted up -it was incredible!! ! Not that Tanner

> > looks unusual -but he has the typical Tanner face most of the time

> > we call it. When he's tired especially he looks a bit sad -and

> > expressionless. It's when his oral apraxia shows the most. You can

> > see the classic Tanner face at the bottom of the page here where my

> > husband Glenn is holding Tanner. http://www.cherab. org/news. html

> >

> > Thing is that Tanner who still has mild sensory issues feels the

> > electo-stimulation as pain and started crying almost as soon as we

> > started -so we had to stop. I let Dr. Jonas put it on my face to

> > show Tanner that I'd do it and it is the funniest thing! You lose

> > control of your face as the muscles tighten up -we all started

> > laughing when I tried to control my face and stop my eye from

> > twitching. I had it on level 9 for about 30 minutes and was talking

> > on the phone and drinking water/chewing gum (you are supposed to

> > fight against the tension) and Tanner saw that I was just fine with

> > it -in fact after a bit it felt like a massage. (There is some

> > belief this may have some face lifting benefits so I said we can try

> > it on me again...and again...and again! Keep you posted on that!

> > Talk about added bonus to therapy time! Therapy and a face lift all

> > in one!)

> >

> > For Tanner we tried it 3 more times -each for less then a minute.

> > But Tanner's willing to try again. I'm a believer that's for sure.

> > I just love those therapists who are good at what they do...and yet

> > are willing to consider other techniques.

> >

> > Here's an archive on this from 2003 prior to a conference we had in

> > NC that brought various experts in apraxia ( Kaufman, M.A.,

> > CCC/SLP , Sara Rosenfeld- M.S., CCC/SLP, and PROMPT was

> > represented too as well as others. As far as I know it's the first

> > time that all three approaches came together in one room to talk

> > about apraxia. But thankfully and Sara took that information

> > and ran with it...what about PROMPT...again do you get Kaufman and

> > oral motor with PROMPT?)

> >

> > Both and Sara are advisors to CHERAB and Speechville;

> > http://www.cherab. org/information/ speechlanguage/ advisoryboard. html

> >

> > =====

> >

[Guest guest]

Tanner's was covered by insurance -and yes it was used on his face. Tanner has

oral apraxia which he's pretty much overcome but he doesn't have as much in the

way of facial expressions and the hope was that this would help stimulate some

of those affected nerves. It did seem to do that and who knows if we lived

closer to Renai and could have used it more often...but driving to Boca and back

from my home with Tanner at the time to get 20 minutes of Vitastim was just too

much for the poor little guy. He'd fall asleep exhausted. But he was willing

to give it a go too -I don't do anything (since he's been able to talk and

older) without discussing it with Tanner.

The funniest...is that Tanner was afraid to try it when Renai first got it - so

guess who the guinea pig was?!!!! Tanner has the cutest and funniest laugh -

because apparently when this thing gets turned on it makes your face weird!!

And try to laugh with electrodes on your face which makes your face all weird

and apparently it makes it even funnier! It wasn't that bad...and Dr. Jonas

adjusted the level of course...not as bad as it sounds! I mean -it does sound

bad -but it really wasn't.

=====

[Guest guest]

So, , if insurance paid for it, then why couldn't you just take the device

(insurance paid) home with you and do the treatments yourself 4 times a day? I

am looking to do this at home, 4 to 6 times per day) like I did my own TENS. Why

travel?

>

> Tanner's was covered by insurance -and yes it was used on his face. Tanner

has oral apraxia which he's pretty much overcome but he doesn't have as much in

the way of facial expressions and the hope was that this would help stimulate

some of those affected nerves. It did seem to do that and who knows if we lived

closer to Renai and could have used it more often...but driving to Boca and back

from my home with Tanner at the time to get 20 minutes of Vitastim was just too

much for the poor little guy. He'd fall asleep exhausted. But he was willing

to give it a go too -I don't do anything (since he's been able to talk and

older) without discussing it with Tanner.

>

> The funniest...is that Tanner was afraid to try it when Renai first got it -

so guess who the guinea pig was?!!!! Tanner has the cutest and funniest laugh -

because apparently when this thing gets turned on it makes your face weird!!

And try to laugh with electrodes on your face which makes your face all weird

and apparently it makes it even funnier! It wasn't that bad...and Dr. Jonas

adjusted the level of course...not as bad as it sounds! I mean -it does sound

bad -but it really wasn't.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

I have my own TENS.  Insurance paid, but for a different dx.  I had to have a

session on how to use it properly.  Perhaps this is why was not allowed to

take it home.

 

sl

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which

it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged

material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking

of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other

than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please

contact the sender and delete the material from all computers.

Sharon Lang

From: <agirlnamedsuess@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: Anyone thought of using a T.E.N.S. machine on

facial muscles?

Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 6:17 PM

So, , if insurance paid for it, then why couldn't you just take the device

(insurance paid) home with you and do the treatments yourself 4 times a day? I

am looking to do this at home, 4 to 6 times per day) like I did my own TENS. Why

travel?

>

> Tanner's was covered by insurance -and yes it was used on his face. Tanner has

oral apraxia which he's pretty much overcome but he doesn't have as much in the

way of facial expressions and the hope was that this would help stimulate some

of those affected nerves. It did seem to do that and who knows if we lived

closer to Renai and could have used it more often...but driving to Boca and back

from my home with Tanner at the time to get 20 minutes of Vitastim was just too

much for the poor little guy. He'd fall asleep exhausted. But he was willing to

give it a go too -I don't do anything (since he's been able to talk and older)

without discussing it with Tanner.

>

> The funniest...is that Tanner was afraid to try it when Renai first got it -

so guess who the guinea pig was?!!!! Tanner has the cutest and funniest laugh -

because apparently when this thing gets turned on it makes your face weird!! And

try to laugh with electrodes on your face which makes your face all weird and

apparently it makes it even funnier! It wasn't that bad...and Dr. Jonas adjusted

the level of course...not as bad as it sounds! I mean -it does sound bad -but it

really wasn't.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Hmmm from memory I think because the machine was expensive and my insurance

covered the treatment -not the actual device which Dr. Renai Jonas was also

using for other patients. It also may be that one needs to be trained -take a

course first before using it on others? I don't remember anymore.

http://www.vitalstim.com/

=====

[Guest guest]

I looked at the website already. I have a not-so knowledgeabl PCP, but should I

start there or should I called the neuroogist who still has nreturned my call

and gotten follow-up detailed info on the EEG that I requested over a month ago?

:#

I do not know where to start. Although, I guess I could call that doc you

mentioned and ask them? I want to do this at home though.We are too far out to

go back and forth...we already do too much of that.

Also, it seems like one could get a " chart " that shows placement, etc...

>

> Hmmm from memory I think because the machine was expensive and my insurance

covered the treatment -not the actual device which Dr. Renai Jonas was also

using for other patients. It also may be that one needs to be trained -take a

course first before using it on others? I don't remember anymore.

> http://www.vitalstim.com/

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

My chiro showed me also, and I could not tell so much because he was speaking of

my back. Sometimes I got them in the right place and sometimes I did not.

> >

> > Tanner's was covered by insurance -and yes it was used on his face. Tanner

has oral apraxia which he's pretty much overcome but he doesn't have as much in

the way of facial expressions and the hope was that this would help stimulate

some of those affected nerves. It did seem to do that and who knows if we lived

closer to Renai and could have used it more often...but driving to Boca and back

from my home with Tanner at the time to get 20 minutes of Vitastim was just too

much for the poor little guy. He'd fall asleep exhausted. But he was willing to

give it a go too -I don't do anything (since he's been able to talk and older)

without discussing it with Tanner.

> >

> > The funniest...is that Tanner was afraid to try it when Renai first got it -

so guess who the guinea pig was?!!!! Tanner has the cutest and funniest laugh -

because apparently when this thing gets turned on it makes your face weird!! And

try to laugh with electrodes on your face which makes your face all weird and

apparently it makes it even funnier! It wasn't that bad...and Dr. Jonas adjusted

the level of course...not as bad as it sounds! I mean -it does sound bad -but it

really wasn't.

> >

> > =====

> >

[Guest guest]

I got it covered with a rheumatologist.

sl

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which

it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged

material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking

of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other

than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please

contact the sender and delete the material from all computers.

Sharon Lang

> From: <agirlnamedsuess@...>

> Subject: [ ] Re: Anyone thought of using a T.E.N.S. machine

on facial muscles?

>

> Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 8:32 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I looked at the website already. I have a

> not-so knowledgeabl PCP, but should I start there or should

> I called the neuroogist who still has nreturned my call and

> gotten follow-up detailed info on the EEG that I requested

> over a month ago? :#

>

> I do not know where to start. Although, I guess I could

> call that doc you mentioned and ask them? I want to do this

> at home though.We are too far out to go back and forth...we

> already do too much of that.

>

> Also, it seems like one could get a " chart " that

> shows placement, etc...

>

>

>

> >

>

> > Hmmm from memory I think because the machine was

> expensive and my insurance covered the treatment -not the

> actual device which Dr. Renai Jonas was also using for other

> patients. It also may be that one needs to be trained -take

> a course first before using it on others? I don't

> remember anymore.

>

> > http://www.vitalsti

> m.com/

>

> >

>

> > =====

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Emory University, right?

>

>

> I got it covered with a rheumatologist.

[Guest guest]

he was at piedmont, but retired.

 

 

sl

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Sharon Lang

From: <agirlnamedsuess@...>

Emory University, right?