Re: Update on Tanner -and note about vitamin E

[Guest guest]

Just want to clarify this is all just my opinion based on my son's

reactions.

=====

[Guest guest]

I am going to say a prayer tonight for Tanner that his speech gets

better. I am sad to read about this.

(((((((hugs))))))))

Kate

>

> Just want to clarify this is all just my opinion based on my son's

> reactions.

>

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

So sorry to read about Tanner's regression. Please keep us posted.

My guess, though just my own of course, is that it is temporary.

Kate

>

> Just want to clarify this is all just my opinion based on my son's

> reactions.

>

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

, I hope he gets back to where he was really soon since the

switch! Just 1 question. With the 4 Pro EFA and 2 EPA, you said you

give 1 capsule of high gamma E from Vitamin World. I have just

ordered this from Vitamin World. Do I always give just one? If I

split up the dose of EPA and EFA to twice a day and give 2/1 and 2/1,

do I also give the Vitamin E twice a day, or just once? Thanks so

much. Kristy

On Oct 2, 2008, at 6:56 PM, kiddietalk wrote:

> Just want to clarify this is all just my opinion based on my son's

> reactions.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kristie and Kate, and Kate )

I just want everyone to know that I had the chance to read again the

message I sent out when I was very emotional about Tanner's request

to come to his school tomorrow to talk to his teachers and friends

about what happened to his speech. He had been doing so well and

then went to quiet as I posted because he was groping and now his

speech is more of a struggle/stutter- nothing smooth like it was prior.

http://www.debtsmart.net/talk/tanner.html

I too pray his speech goes back to even where it was before. I am

angry at myself too for again not trying to know more prior and just

trusting.. without searching for myself. Even my husband said that's

so not me. It really is so not me. I question everything.

(you guys know that!)

I am sorry for the nasty tone in my message that I wrote when I was

upset and didn't mean to attack you either Liz, sorry to you too. If

it makes you feel better I really do feel like I just drank some

lemon Joy. It may be hard to know what feelings I am going through

as a mom unless you were in my situation. As all of you know I am

very passionate about Tanner and all of our children here -even

the " children " that are now adults like who was also in the

focus group.

And for tomorrow...I have to do something I have not done since my

Tan-man was in kindergarten! (kind of almost a circle of friends)

I'll keep all of you posted on updates.

=====

[Guest guest]

,

I will pray for Tanner tonight, too. May he rebound quickly and strongly,

Nadine

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 7:40 PM, kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

> As many of you know my son had a massive regression in speech to the

> point of groping on Speak. He's been off for 7 or 8 days now and

> even though much better his speech is still not where it was prior to

> Speak which greatly concerns me as he typically responds to changes

> in supplements right away -check the archives most of our kids do

> once back on the " right " oils. I'm guessing it's due to the vitamin

> E and K being fat soluble and still in his body somehow.

>

> I thought today perhaps he still needs the same vitamin E he was on

> before because prior to Speak Tanner was on the 4 ProEFA and 2 ProEPA

> and the high gamma E from Vitamin World....but at the same time

> another part of me didn't want to give him any vitamin E at all for

> at least a few months because I wasn't sure if he already had some

> sort of vitamin poisoning (and because who can I ask as right now I

> trust nobody when it comes to this unknown path) I gave Tanner today

> 1 capsule of high gamma E from Vitamin World which means 200 IU of

> alpha and 200 mg of gamma with his 4 ProEFA and 2 ProEPA

>

> Tanner's speech regressed again today back to being worse. My

> husband is requesting I post this here to let the rest of you know

> how severe this really is to document this and to try to help prevent

> what has happened to my son Tanner from happening to others. Glenn

> is worried that I somehow neurologically damaged Tanner as we don't

> really know what is going on -and who do we again ask?!! Yes Liz I

> almost feel as stupid as drinking Joy dishwashing liquid as you say

> thinking it was lemonade because there was a pretty picture of a

> lemon on it.

>

> This is not a " indirect negative report, rumor or innuendos " this is

> my son Tanner's dramatic regression on a supplement that contains the

> exact same Omega 3 and Omega 6 formula that I have had him on since

> 2001 that somehow ended up in a supplement with megadosages of

> vitamin E and K that for the first time in his life brought him back

> to groping in speech. Thank you. And yes I am PISSED.

>

> Tanner has asked for me to come to his school tomorrow to talk to his

> teachers and friends in class about why his speech has regressed so

> dramatically as he doesn't really know how to explain it -especially

> right now.

[Guest guest]

I hope Tanner is back to his old self soon. I am sorry your family is

experiencing this. I will keep him in my prayers.

Sincerely Yours,

Debra Ward

[Guest guest]

Wow, ...

This is so sad & frightening! I cannot imagine what you are going

through. I will pray that once the extra E is out of his system that

he will be able to speak at the level he was before. I've been

following his progress since my daughter was 3. (She is 7.5 now) and I

have always looked at where Tanner was as a marker for where my child

will be some day.

Sorry your little guy has to go through this.

Hugs,

Aubrey

[Guest guest]

Tanners regression

I am sorry to hear about Tanner's regression. You can wait it out or

start some other supplements to counter balance what may have taken

place. If his glutathione, C, selenium or zinc were low, the high dose

vitamin E woul d have caused oxidative stress on Tanner's system. At this

point, I would do the following to help him recover.

1. MOST IMPORTANT!! For a few days, feed him easy to digest foods.

Chicken, and chicken soup and a few well cooked vegetables and fruit

purees. Give him only clear sugar free liquids.

2. Give him a bath in Epsom salts everyday until he starts to show some

recovery. Start with a cup and then go to two. If he can not tolerate

one cup, go to a half.

3. Supplement with glutathione, zinc and C. Start slow and increase

dosage as he tolerates. I would suggest a glutathione cream not an oral

supplement.

As he recovers, and he will, start adding back slowly foods that he can

tolerate. It will take a few days. Some foods are high oxalate and when

the body is under oxidative stress, they can be difficult for one to

tolerate. As you add in the supplements above, things will come into

balance again. I would keep him off E for a bit until it is all

balanceed again.

Once he recovers and he no longer needs the supplements,

slowly decrease them.

I am so sorry this happened to Tanner. He will get better. I am not

saying what I suggested is something you should do, but just ponder and

see if it feels right for Tanner. We have been where you are and this

helped our son recover after a regression from Oxaditive stress.

I thought he had a stroke! It broke my heart. It happened twice. He

started to recover right away as soon as we did the above. And ,

here is the light at the end of the tunnel, Tanner will come back

stronger than ever.

Take care, Tanner, we are hoping for you.

and family

[Guest guest]

Oh my goodness..., that is terrible! I'm so sorry that this is

happening to you and Tanner. I can't imagine what you both are going

through, though this now has me worried about my own son. I started

him on SPEAK as well, but have only been doing 2 caps at a time off

and on for a couple of weeks. All total, I have only given him 14

caps...so 7 days worth spread over the past 2 weeks. Well, starting

on this past Sunday, I gave him the speak supplement, and then again

Monday and Tuesday. Well, Monday his school nurse called and said he

felt warm and that his teacher said he was clingy all day and " off " .

So I picked him up early from school and didn't think anything of it

because he gets sick easily and he seemed fine when he got home. Then

Tuesday he seemed ok, but his speech therapist noticed that he was

having more difficulty. I also noticed more groping and

unintelligable jargon, but again didn't think much about it because

he is always so variable. Then, Tuesday afternoon and evening he was

having some major gastro distress. I woke at 5AM Wednesday morning to

the sound of him wimpering and he was running a fever of 101.2. I

gave him motrin and soothed him back to sleep, kept him home from

school, and he seemed ok, but off...extra giggly and zoned out and

lots of unintelligible speech and random verbal and oral

stimming...at this point I figured it must be a virus or something.

But I didn't give him the speak Wednesday night or tonight (thank

God) because when he is sick I usually stop supplements for some

reason. Then I get an email tonight from Nourish Life about possible

negative reactions and it all dawned on me, and then I saw your post

about Tanner. I want to burn the package! I too am so leary of

supplements and things but for some reason I ignored my inner voice

and tried this out anyway. My gut tried to tell me that it wasn't a

good idea to try something new that hasn't been tested for safety,

but I kept thinking it had to be ok because it was supposed to be the

exact same thing we were taking already, but in a more convenient

form. We weren't on K before so I have no history with that to

compare to, but I had been doing the NN EPA, EFA and Vitamin Shoppe

High Gamma E.

I have magnesium sulfate cream and glutathione lotion that I use on

my son daily for Autism that our DAN! prescribed so I will continue

with that and try to give him a sea salt bath tomorrow evening.

Hopefully that plus time will make him better. Please keep us

posted...I can't imagine your pain as you prepare to talk to the

school tomorrow for Tanner. Oh my heart is breaking for you. My son

is only 5 and has Autism as well as the verbal apraxia and global

dyspraxia...he really doesn't seem to be aware of (or care about) his

differences from his peers...sometimes that can be a blessing

unfortunately.

I prayed that God will put His hands on Tanner to clear the pathways

from his brain to his mouth and untangle his speech...it will be,

have Faith.

Warmly,

, Mom to Ricky (5 yrs old, Hirschsprung's Disease, Autism,

Apraxia/Dyspraxia, SID, ADHD secondary to Autism...and others) and

Lawson (3 yrs old, loving brother and in-home therapist(lol) to

Ricky, and a handful on his own)

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I feel so badly for Tanner. We have had this issue but much 'softer' with Mark

when he eats 'bad' foods. It's aweful for him to get up in the morning and

realize that he can barely speak that day when the day before he was fine.....

truly aweful. You don't want to even go to school and face your friends.

Do try the Epsom Salts as indicated. They really work well for us to get

the 'bad' stuff out of the system as fast as possible. If you're going to

supplement with C, make sure that Tanner can tolerate corn products since a lot

of V. C has corn fillers. I tend to use C-Buff powder which is great for

getting 'bad' stuff out as well. Mix it with water and down it; do this several

times a day until his symptoms dissipate.

Of course, this is not a food reaction that you're having but these items tend

to help the body to clear the system of any toxicity.

Good luck and all my best to your boy. He is having a major regression here but

I know that he will come back to you soon..... I will keep him in my prayers and

thoughts.

I am finding all of these problems with SPEAK very odd since the ingredients

have been used separately by me over and over again? So, could it be a fault in

the manufacturing process here? Are the labels acurate and who is actually

doing the quality control testing? Because the ingredients seem to be fairly

identical to what many on this board have used over and over again without

issue...... Could there be a problem with the oils themselves? or in the

storage process? These are questions that are definately worth pursuing.

Anyway, my thoughts are with you. I am so sorry that you are having to go

through this.

Take care and all my best,

Janice

Mother of Mark, 13

[sPAM][ ] Re: Update on Tanner -and note about

vitamin E

Thanks Kristie and Kate, and Kate )

I just want everyone to know that I had the chance to read again the

message I sent out when I was very emotional about Tanner's request

to come to his school tomorrow to talk to his teachers and friends

about what happened to his speech. He had been doing so well and

then went to quiet as I posted because he was groping and now his

speech is more of a struggle/stutter- nothing smooth like it was prior.

http://www.debtsmart.net/talk/tanner.html

I too pray his speech goes back to even where it was before. I am

angry at myself too for again not trying to know more prior and just

trusting.. without searching for myself. Even my husband said that's

so not me. It really is so not me. I question everything.

(you guys know that!)

I am sorry for the nasty tone in my message that I wrote when I was

upset and didn't mean to attack you either Liz, sorry to you too. If

it makes you feel better I really do feel like I just drank some

lemon Joy. It may be hard to know what feelings I am going through

as a mom unless you were in my situation. As all of you know I am

very passionate about Tanner and all of our children here -even

the " children " that are now adults like who was also in the

focus group.

And for tomorrow...I have to do something I have not done since my

Tan-man was in kindergarten! (kind of almost a circle of friends)

I'll keep all of you posted on updates.

=====

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I just wanted to urge everybody starting out with vitamin E for the first

time(or even K) Please when using E or K increase slowly starting with much less

than 200 iu and decrease slowly (Iknow nothing about SPEAK and it sounds like

kids had to get off that very quickly because it was such a high dose) - But

everything I have read advises this. There is a Vitamin K list serve on

groups where people are v. experienced with using Vit K if anyone wants to ask

questions on there.

[Guest guest]

Vitamin K2 is an excellent vitamin for our kids. I supplement it

separately. However, having said that, I have on child that can tolerate

up to five drops a day and the other (identical twin that can only

tolerate one drop maybe two at the most or he gets major diarhea. The

supplements in speak are excellent but I have never been a " multi " user

because I know how my kids can be affected by too much of something or

an imbalance.

wrote:

> Oh my goodness..., that is terrible! I'm so sorry that this is

> happening to you and Tanner. I can't imagine what you both are going

> through, though this now has me worried about my own son. I started

> him on SPEAK as well, but have only been doing 2 caps at a time off

> and on for a couple of weeks. All total, I have only given him 14

> caps...so 7 days worth spread over the past 2 weeks. Well, starting

> on this past Sunday, I gave him the speak supplement, and then again

> Monday and Tuesday. Well, Monday his school nurse called and said he

> felt warm and that his teacher said he was clingy all day and " off " .

> So I picked him up early from school and didn't think anything of it

> because he gets sick easily and he seemed fine when he got home. Then

> Tuesday he seemed ok, but his speech therapist noticed that he was

> having more difficulty. I also noticed more groping and

> unintelligable jargon, but again didn't think much about it because

> he is always so variable. Then, Tuesday afternoon and evening he was

> having some major gastro distress. I woke at 5AM Wednesday morning to

> the sound of him wimpering and he was running a fever of 101.2. I

> gave him motrin and soothed him back to sleep, kept him home from

> school, and he seemed ok, but off...extra giggly and zoned out and

> lots of unintelligible speech and random verbal and oral

> stimming...at this point I figured it must be a virus or something.

> But I didn't give him the speak Wednesday night or tonight (thank

> God) because when he is sick I usually stop supplements for some

> reason. Then I get an email tonight from Nourish Life about possible

> negative reactions and it all dawned on me, and then I saw your post

> about Tanner. I want to burn the package! I too am so leary of

> supplements and things but for some reason I ignored my inner voice

> and tried this out anyway. My gut tried to tell me that it wasn't a

> good idea to try something new that hasn't been tested for safety,

> but I kept thinking it had to be ok because it was supposed to be the

> exact same thing we were taking already, but in a more convenient

> form. We weren't on K before so I have no history with that to

> compare to, but I had been doing the NN EPA, EFA and Vitamin Shoppe

> High Gamma E.

> I have magnesium sulfate cream and glutathione lotion that I use on

> my son daily for Autism that our DAN! prescribed so I will continue

> with that and try to give him a sea salt bath tomorrow evening.

> Hopefully that plus time will make him better. Please keep us

> posted...I can't imagine your pain as you prepare to talk to the

> school tomorrow for Tanner. Oh my heart is breaking for you. My son

> is only 5 and has Autism as well as the verbal apraxia and global

> dyspraxia...he really doesn't seem to be aware of (or care about) his

> differences from his peers...sometimes that can be a blessing

> unfortunately.

> I prayed that God will put His hands on Tanner to clear the pathways

> from his brain to his mouth and untangle his speech...it will be,

> have Faith.

> Warmly,

> , Mom to Ricky (5 yrs old, Hirschsprung's Disease, Autism,

> Apraxia/Dyspraxia, SID, ADHD secondary to Autism...and others) and

> Lawson (3 yrs old, loving brother and in-home therapist(lol) to

> Ricky, and a handful on his own)

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Love you !!! You are my hero!!!! Yay !!!!

For those that don't know about epsom salt baths....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~start of archive:

Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:28 pm

" merrywbee " merrywbee@...

Epsom Salt Baths-- moderator approve?

Epsom Salt Baths

Information compiled by Wetherby, with editing and research

information provided courtesy of Owens. This information may

be shared with families and professionals, but please do not use it

in a part of a larger document/paper without obtaining written

permission.

What are Epsom Salts?

Epsom Salts are the same thing as Magnesium Sulfate, which is a salt

made of only magnesium and sulphate (and maybe a little bit of

water). Magnesium is a positively charged ion, and it binds to

sulfate, which is a negatively charged ion. Sulfate is a sulphur

atom surrounded by four oxygen atoms.

You can buy them at your local drugstore or pharmacy or even in the

grocery store. They are usually located in larger bags near the

bandages or the foot care section (in a pinch, smaller containers can

be found in the laxative aisle, but it is cheaper to buy them in the

larger bags/cartons).

What is the anticipated effect from an Epsom Salt bath?

Epsom Salts have long been used to stimulate detoxification, reduce

inflammation to sore muscles, promote healthy circulation, and help

with relaxation and normalizing sleep patterns.

Most children respond to an ES bath by appearing happier, more

relaxed. Some parents report that their children are more

responsive, more " with it " . Some parents who give the bath in the

evenings report that their children are able to get to sleep easier,

and have a more normal sleep pattern.

Given over time, the ES baths may help reduce sensory integration

symptoms. Some of this effect may occur due to benefits of

detoxification, but it is much more likely to come from direct

effects on the nervous system.

Why do they work? And Why is sulfation important?

One benefit of the ES baths is linked to an enzyme system known as

phenolsulfotransferase or PST. Dr. Rosemary Waring researched this

and found that in 92% of the autistic children tested, PST was

functioning at below optimal levels. This enzyme, like all other

sulfotransferases, has to use a modified form of sulfate: not the

form it takes in the bathtub. This change occurs inside your cells

by adding the molecules adenosine and phosphate to sulfate before any

sulfotransferase enzyme can use it. The molecular additions are said

to turn sulfate into its " activated form " . If you think about it,

none of this can be happening in the bathtub: it is happening in

your body after sulfate is absorbed through the skin and after a

complicated interplay of enzymes. It is not going to happen

spontaneously, no matter how much sulfate you have around.

When PST has enough activated sulfate to use, it will then attach the

sulfate part of that molecule to molecules called phenols. In most

cases, adding sulfate sets up those molecules for excretion in the

urine, but it can actually activate other molecules.

When there is a deficiency of sulfate inside your cells, phenols may

build up. In the brain and nervous system this may interfere with

neurotransmitter function since many neurotransmitters are phenolic,

too. For instance, there is actually a form of PST called

catecholamine sulfotransferase or M-PST which acts on

neurotransmitters. Other sulfotransferases act on hormones and

proteins and carbohydrates of certain sorts.

Again, epsom salts are believed to help PST by providing the much-

needed

sulfate to the child's body, by being absorbed transdermally (through

the skin) during the bath. The body is full of other

sulfotransferases that need sulfate to be much more concentrated than

what PST likes. These other sulfotransferases, among other jobs,

help form the extracellular nets around certain neurons, and regulate

things like axon guidance and neurons sending out processes to make

connections.

The gastrointestinal system especially needs a lot of sulfate. A

diferrent sulfotransferase enzyme called TPST uses sulfate to

activate two major gut enzymes. In animal studies the GI system

takes as much sulfate out of the blood as the liver puts into the

blood, so epsom salts are likely to mostly nourish the gut and spare

the liver the job of making sulfate from scratch from the amino acid

cysteine.

But how does this produce neurological improvements?

Detoxification is only a little part of sulfate's job. Most of the

body's sulfate is used to form huge molecules that govern chemical

traffic at the cell surface. Many of these sulfated molecules find

their more enduring home in the area immediately around the cell

called the extracellular matrix. [Extracellular = outside the cell]

These sulfated molecules function in all cell types. However, in the

brain, this type of molecule has a very special role, providing

modulation, or something like a volume control. It does this by

forming a geometric net outside particular types of neurons.

The sulfate in these molecules is no longer in an ionic form, like

you see in epsom salts in the bathtub, but is part of highly

organized structures that will attract, bind and regulate many of the

ions that are involved in cell signalling before those ions even get

to the surface of neurons or to ion channels.

You haven't heard about this from your neurologist because research

on the

function of this type of molecule has been done mainly in the last

decade, and in the last year or two, especially. Even so, there are

pictures of these nets around neurons that were drawn by scientists

more than a hundred years ago before they knew what they were made

of. Nobody thought they did anything!

What seems particularly relevant is that the nets are abundant and

function in the auditory system, the somatosensory system, the

vestibular system, the cerebellum, and in almost half of the cranial

nerves. They even seem important for developing trunk strength.

You may recognize these systems as the parts of the nervous system

that are targeted by sensory integration therapy. Interestingly, the

nets won't form properly in the brain without two things happening at

the same time: adequate biochemical resources, and continued rapid

firing of the relevant nerves. This argues favorably for coupling

biochemical therapies that support this chemistry with the physical

and educational approaches that are also known to offer benefits to

these systems.

If you want to know more about the biochemical side of this, you can

read a

paper written by Owens who has studied the sulfated molecules

(called

GAGs) for seven years. Her paper reviewing this area is part of a

book that is sold by the Autism Research Unit in Sunderland: The

Proceedings of their 2001 conference in Durham, England. See

http://osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/.

What are the potential long-term benefits of continued use?

After using epsom salts on a regular basis, children may have

improvements with language, behavior, mood, and physical skills.

What if my child gets agitated?

Very few children may seem more agitated after the initial bath, or

several baths later. It is not known why this happens, but it is easy

to deal with. Just cut back on the baths for a few days and then

begin again, but with a much smaller amount of ES-perhaps a teaspoon,

and work up the amount very slowly. Also, you may see if the child

reacts to magnesium by trying it in a different form orally.

Kirkman Laboratories " Guide To Intestinal Health " booklet discusses

how impaired sulfation process can lead to a decreased production of

peptides, and bile acids, which are important to digestive function,

and lead to problems with maldigestion and malabsorption. Sulfation

is also important to the intestinal lining. Over time, decreased

sulfation can allow small portions of the gut wall to be exposed,

creating the " Leaky Gut " which is suspect in allergies, asthma, and

other neurobehavioral disorders. Sulfate's relative absense from the

esophagus may be what makes reflux hurt so much.

Okay, I think we'll try the baths—what do I need and how much Epsom

Salt, and for how long?

The amount and frequency can vary from child to child. Some parents

prefer to use as much as 2 cups of ES in a bathtub of water, allowing

the child to be in the tub for around 20 minutes, on a daily basis.

Some parents prefer to do the baths every few days, some prefer every

week. As mentioned before, if your child is one of the rare few who

seem to get agitated by the bath, then simply cut back on the amount

of salt used (my son was one of these kids and we dropped back to a

teaspoon and worked up gradually to about ¼ to ½ a cup).

What are other ways to employ Epsom Salts for sulfation benefits?

Some parents prefer to mix the ES with water and keep it in a spray

bottle and spray their kids during the day. As it dries, it leaves a

white residue that you can leave on for more of a " timed-release "

effect if it is tolerated. Others have found ways to make ES oil or

lotion. Please join the Enzymes and Autism Group for recipes

on how to make it into an oil or lotion. Instead of a bath, some

parents give their child a foot soak while they are eating or doing

something else. Kirkman Laboratories at www.kirkmanlabs.com sells

an Epsom Salt cream that can be applied 1 to 3 times a day. It does

not leave a residue. I have been told that there are other ES

creams out there, but I haven't seen them in any stores yet. If

someone knows of another source, please add it to this file.

Q: I gave my child an epsom salt bath, and s/he seemed more hyper

and/or emotional afterwards. Is this related to the bath? Why would

my child react this way instead of having the " expected " results?

I think the trick here, which is important to know about, is that you

need to start slowly when introducing a supplement of something for

which you have been deficient a long time, and then slowly work up to

more. This is because, unlike drugs, where the quantity of a dose is

set by the doctor trying to obtain a blood level of something FOREIGN

to the body, introducing a supplement of something the body uses

every day works in a whole different way, and this can be generalized

to lots of things. I'll explain why.

Most chemical reactions happen inside cells after substances have

crossed over the cell's outer membrane. For things cells use

everyday, they have specific transporters and receptors that are

expressed on the cell surface in the quantity that is appropriate to

assure an appropriate supply to that cell type. Not all cells like

the same quantity. When everything works right, the inside of the

cell gets the appropriate quantity of what it needs of that

substance. The cell wants not too much and not too little and it

knows how to adjust the availability of that substance to the inside

of the cell when the supply outside the cell changes.

If the supply of something the body uses up every day has been low

for

awhile, the cell will upregulate the transporter or receptor that is

specific for that substance. Upregulation means it will put more of

these working molecules on the cell surface in order to increase the

odds that the substance will find its receptor or transporter.

When the supply has been high for a long time, the cell will also cut

back the quantity of the receptor or transporter on the cell surface.

Cells are very fluid like that: changing and adjusting constantly:

not like a machine at all! Your car doesn't increase the gas caps

when its fuel supply is low, but it doesn't have to gets its gas from

the passing parade by chance and kinetics...

So, if you have been deficient in sulfate for a long time, your cells

would have upregulated the transporters to make much of little. All

over the body, receptors that need sulfated ligands might have been

upregulated as well, trying to increase their signal or supply.

If you suddenly increase the quantity of sulfate that approaches the

cell by several fold, you can get too intense a signal, and that can

be overwhelming. That is why you should start slowly. This gives your

body's cells a chance to readjust to the new level they will be

seeing. We're not trying to overdo that level, but just to return it

to something normal.

Remember that cells are accustomed to biological rhythms that change

the

quantities of nutrients that cells see. This includes feeding

schedules and sleep. Cells don't make these adjustments on whim or

very quickly, for they know there will be long periods of time when

the supply gets lower just because it has been a long time since you

ate something. I would guess, for that reason, that cells tend to

adjust to conditions that may continue for at least a day or two.

The way this biology works gives me the suspicion that the children

who get

the most hyper after their first epsom salts bath or baths may be the

children who have been the most deficient of this substance, and have

receptors and transporters dialed WAY up.

If you are deficient in supply, even when you have receptors or

transporters expressed at extremely high quantity, you still might be

low in quantity for the function you need. The increase of receptors

or transporters will help, but it isn't much of a solution long term.

If you get exposed to something that requires a lot of sulfate for

your body to detoxify (like phenols in fumes or foods or drugs), the

level of sulfate available for NORMAL functions will be hurting

temporarily as your body tries to recover from this demand. The loss

of the function of other molecules that use sulfate for normal

function is likely what is producing symptoms: not your body feeling

toxic as if it had just been " burned " by the substance your body was

trying to detoxify. That sort of injury might take longer and it

would probably be more subtle, anyway. If you are having neurological

reactions, you are probably seeing an adjustment in the neurological

chemistry which is feeling shorted and may be overwhelmed with sudden

change.

Of course, you really need an appropriate supply of sulfate, but the

story of HOW the supply got low in the first place can be very

different from child to child, and involve organs like the kidneys,

the liver and the GI tract and systems like the immune system.

Anyway, as an example of this sort of mechanism with an entirely

different substance, I'll tell you a little about the secretin story.

This sort of receptor-quantity issue was suspected to be happening in

the children with autism who were given IV secretin. In response to

the same dose that had a predictable response in normal people, those

with autism instead put out huge quantities of pancreatic fluid.

Their response was intense on the very same dose that other patients

were getting without experiencing this overexuberant response.

Why? The sudden increase in secretin was more of a surprise for the

bodies

of autistic children than it was for the other children with GI

problems being tested. The pancreas was OVER responsive to secretin

probably because this was the first good supply of secretin that it

had gotten in a long time. Scientists suspected that the amount of

secretin these children had been producing on their own had been low

for a long time. I hope all this makes sense. Your body makes

secretin, but it also makes sulfate from the amino acids cysteine and

methionine. There may be a reason this isn't happening appropriately.

I've heard of parents starting with as little as a teaspoon in the

bathwater and working up. You can also apply the solution topically,

and can control the quantity by how much surface of the skin you

cover. The half-life of sulfate in the blood is 4-9 hours.

At any rate, please do not interpret this [emotional/hyper reaction]

to mean the epsom salts were the wrong thing...it may mean exactly

the opposite! Normal people do not have any response to epsom salts

baths except maybe to feel relaxed later! They don't get hyper or

emotional…

If you have already tried reducing the quantity of epsom salts

drastically and slowly increasing the quantity, and it doesn't work

to reduce this hyper or emotional response, I'd be glad to talk to

you offlist about what else it might mean.

Anyway, I hope this helps. You've just got to think like a cell

thinks!

Owens

> > I can't for the life of me think of why an Epson salts bath would

> be good

> > for our kids. The baking soda makes sense but I must have missed

> the whole

> > Epson salts thing...someone PLEASE clue me in on this fascinating

> > information!

> >

> >

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~end of archive

=====

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Janice -you know how it is with the older tweenies

because they are so aware. The whole social thing going on now.

I never used vitamin K on Tanner before and even though there were at

least two hundred of us that had our children on additional vitamin E

over what is in the fish oils -I thought most including me just used the

high gamma E with a 1/1 ratio -lower dose. If you check the archives Tanner

never did well whenever I tried to raise up the alpha above the

gamma -even with the Dr. Ron's which was just slightly off.

I was put on vitamin K when I was little but I was diagnosed with

celiac disease and suspected of having a bleeding disorder as once I

went to the hospital hemorrhaging blood out of my mouth (I never

tested positive for any) I would get bruises up and down my legs

like I was beaten -in fact the bruising was documented by the medical

doctors to protect my parents because I was super super skinny -

looked like one of those starving children with the bloated stomachs -

and bruises mainly on my legs but on my body too. I was also

diagnosed as anemic. All I can say it too bad my parents didn't know

about fish oils because I've been on them since I started researching

them and they make me feel wonderful. BTW I am now very athletic -do

not bruise easily and do not test positive for celiac disease

anymore. Who knows what went on with me then. But yes -I know about

vitamin K was my point because that was one of the things I was on -

besides my GFCF diet that saved my life and kept me out of the

hospital but that I hate to this day.

For Tanner I suspect his improvement on the vitamin E at the start

was due just to the supplementation of the fish oils. We for sure

don't have this all figured out but as many of you know -Tanner's

improvements on extra vitamin E which started at 200/200 and then

when up to 400/400 were improved sensory awareness of pain (which I

don't believe he is thrilled about) and faster, smoother speech

(which he was thrilled about)

I'd have to archive to find out when -but he plateau in speech -I

mean don't get me wrong you all heard his updates on the Talking Page

and he's doing amazing -but his sensory integrations dysfunctions

came back again. Remember the story of about a year ago (?) or less

than that? He broke his finger at the birthday sleepover party and

when I came to pick him up the next morning he didn't want to go home

because he wanted to swim. Get him in the car and that's when he

tells me he " thinks " he hurt his finger playing football. Remember

in the ER where I said to everyone " don't ask him how much it hurts

because he doesn't feel pain like we do " but they didn't believe me

and we were pushed to where paper cuts went before us and waited

hours and finally found out he had a broken finger. The doctor

pushed on his finger and said " does this hurt? " " no " " does this

hurt? " " no " (now right on the break) " does this hurt? " " yeah " No

flinch -nothing. After talking to someone here about vitamin E I

raised him up to 800/800 but honestly there was no changes after the

initial surge and because his speech was so good I didn't take him

off to see what would happen. Some of you did email me when I did

the poll that you did see initial surges like me on the vitamin E but

stopped them and didn't notice regresssions. To bad we didn't do

that poll earlier. And I know that , , and 's

son were on the mega high dosages of vitamin E before- but who else

here? I know you are now Deb? I was under the impression that like

me most of us were using the lower dosage 1/1 ratio high gamma type

vitamin E formulas -no vitamin K. It's like Lori pointed out -we

really don't know because those that post are not necessarily the

norm. I mean I know I'm not normal!

Then again who can stop the fish oils and not see a regression?!!!!

We still don't know why Tanner felt pain when first on vitamin E (the

1/1 alpha gamma) and why he regressed so much when put on higher

alpha so dramatically. I also heard to try the taurine and even at

1000 mg no change at all in Tanner. But I'm going to stick with what

I've used for him for years -the fish oils.

I guess for me the good news is that if Tanner does not have to be on

a fat soluble vitamin/vitamins if you count the K which has no long

term supplementation history in adults no less children -I'm very OK

with that.

Anyway thank you so much Janice -I love this group even if I

sometimes yell.

=====

[Guest guest]

This is very true. Our children are not the norm and that is why the

recommended daily allowance of Vitamin E does nothing for my child. I

am not sure my son needs to be on SPEAK forever but he is on day 18

of 6 SPEAK a day except for 2 days where he got only 3 SPEAK and he

has not had seizures, fevers, diarhhea or any other complaint. When

he was on fish oils I did not notice any improvement in speech but I

have noticed improvement on the 1500IU of Vitamin E a day. His

pediatrician cannot explain it nor can his Neurologist. They only

thing they say is the same thing Dr. posted previously about

children with neurological conditions responding to Vitamin E

therapy. For my 5yr 4 mo 36lb son SPEAK is clearly filling a need for

him. Please keep up the discussions!

>

> Thank you so much Janice -you know how it is with the older tweenies

> because they are so aware. The whole social thing going on now.

>

> I never used vitamin K on Tanner before and even though there were

at

> least two hundred of us that had our children on additional vitamin

E

> over what is in the fish oils -I thought most including me just

used the

> high gamma E with a 1/1 ratio -lower dose. If you check the

archives Tanner

> never did well whenever I tried to raise up the alpha above the

> gamma -even with the Dr. Ron's which was just slightly off.

>

> I was put on vitamin K when I was little but I was diagnosed with

> celiac disease and suspected of having a bleeding disorder as once I

> went to the hospital hemorrhaging blood out of my mouth (I never

> tested positive for any) I would get bruises up and down my legs

> like I was beaten -in fact the bruising was documented by the

medical

> doctors to protect my parents because I was super super skinny -

> looked like one of those starving children with the bloated

stomachs -

> and bruises mainly on my legs but on my body too. I was also

> diagnosed as anemic. All I can say it too bad my parents didn't

know

> about fish oils because I've been on them since I started

researching

> them and they make me feel wonderful. BTW I am now very athletic -

do

> not bruise easily and do not test positive for celiac disease

> anymore. Who knows what went on with me then. But yes -I know

about

> vitamin K was my point because that was one of the things I was on -

> besides my GFCF diet that saved my life and kept me out of the

> hospital but that I hate to this day.

>

> For Tanner I suspect his improvement on the vitamin E at the start

> was due just to the supplementation of the fish oils. We for sure

> don't have this all figured out but as many of you know -Tanner's

> improvements on extra vitamin E which started at 200/200 and then

> when up to 400/400 were improved sensory awareness of pain (which I

> don't believe he is thrilled about) and faster, smoother speech

> (which he was thrilled about)

>

> I'd have to archive to find out when -but he plateau in speech -I

> mean don't get me wrong you all heard his updates on the Talking

Page

> and he's doing amazing -but his sensory integrations dysfunctions

> came back again. Remember the story of about a year ago (?) or less

> than that? He broke his finger at the birthday sleepover party and

> when I came to pick him up the next morning he didn't want to go

home

> because he wanted to swim. Get him in the car and that's when he

> tells me he " thinks " he hurt his finger playing football. Remember

> in the ER where I said to everyone " don't ask him how much it hurts

> because he doesn't feel pain like we do " but they didn't believe me

> and we were pushed to where paper cuts went before us and waited

> hours and finally found out he had a broken finger. The doctor

> pushed on his finger and said " does this hurt? " " no " " does this

> hurt? " " no " (now right on the break) " does this hurt? " " yeah "

No

> flinch -nothing. After talking to someone here about vitamin E I

> raised him up to 800/800 but honestly there was no changes after the

> initial surge and because his speech was so good I didn't take him

> off to see what would happen. Some of you did email me when I did

> the poll that you did see initial surges like me on the vitamin E

but

> stopped them and didn't notice regresssions. To bad we didn't do

> that poll earlier. And I know that , , and 's

> son were on the mega high dosages of vitamin E before- but who else

> here? I know you are now Deb? I was under the impression that like

> me most of us were using the lower dosage 1/1 ratio high gamma type

> vitamin E formulas -no vitamin K. It's like Lori pointed out -we

> really don't know because those that post are not necessarily the

> norm. I mean I know I'm not normal!

>

> Then again who can stop the fish oils and not see a regression?!!!!

>

> We still don't know why Tanner felt pain when first on vitamin E

(the

> 1/1 alpha gamma) and why he regressed so much when put on higher

> alpha so dramatically. I also heard to try the taurine and even at

> 1000 mg no change at all in Tanner. But I'm going to stick with what

> I've used for him for years -the fish oils.

>

> I guess for me the good news is that if Tanner does not have to be

on

> a fat soluble vitamin/vitamins if you count the K which has no long

> term supplementation history in adults no less children -I'm very OK

> with that.

>

> Anyway thank you so much Janice -I love this group even if I

> sometimes yell.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Just to clear things up a bit about my own post previously.I don't know

whether it was coincidence or the SPEAK that caused the problems my son had

this past week (fever, gastro distress, regression). But, just to be on the

safe side.I'm going to hang onto the SPEAK for now and just switch back to

the NN and vit E we were using before. As time passes, I'm sure more info

will surface.at which time I will decide whether to try it again. I don't

want to propagate panic, but I also don't want to risk my child's health and

progress to date either. My only advice is to go with your gut to decide

whether to try or not or continue or discontinue.

[Guest guest]

Wow , this is very interesting. We could never do E for long yet

a recent test showed my son needing it. The first E trial brought

blood which we now think was low vitamin C.

We have supplemented zinc since the Spring with great result and

better E tolerance in diet.

The test that showed him needing E also showed a need for selenium,

which I am only now reading works snergistically (sp?) with E.

So, he willingly eats a brazil nut per day for selenium and for the E

I am getting it in diet for now but know he needs more. I will await

professional guidance though and am hoping D can help.

With strep currently in the house I have to focus on that and find a

good probiotic to counterbalance the antibiotics. Dr. posted

here that antibiotics can wipe out the bacteria that creates vitamin

K. Not sure how we address that. Uggh.

>

>

>

> Tanners regression

>

>

> I am sorry to hear about Tanner's regression. You can wait it out

or

> start some other supplements to counter balance what may have taken

> place. If his glutathione, C, selenium or zinc were low, the high

dose

> vitamin E woul d have caused oxidative stress on Tanner's system.

At this

> point, I would do the following to help him recover.

> 1. MOST IMPORTANT!! For a few days, feed him easy to digest foods.

> Chicken, and chicken soup and a few well cooked vegetables and fruit

> purees. Give him only clear sugar free liquids.

> 2. Give him a bath in Epsom salts everyday until he starts to show

some

> recovery. Start with a cup and then go to two. If he can not

tolerate

> one cup, go to a half.

> 3. Supplement with glutathione, zinc and C. Start slow and increase

> dosage as he tolerates. I would suggest a glutathione cream not an

oral

> supplement.

>

> As he recovers, and he will, start adding back slowly foods that

he can

> tolerate. It will take a few days. Some foods are high oxalate and

when

> the body is under oxidative stress, they can be difficult for one to

> tolerate. As you add in the supplements above, things will come

into

> balance again. I would keep him off E for a bit until it is all

> balanceed again.

> Once he recovers and he no longer needs the supplements,

> slowly decrease them.

>

> I am so sorry this happened to Tanner. He will get better. I am

not

> saying what I suggested is something you should do, but just ponder

and

> see if it feels right for Tanner. We have been where you are and

this

> helped our son recover after a regression from Oxaditive

stress.

> I thought he had a stroke! It broke my heart. It happened twice. He

> started to recover right away as soon as we did the above. And

,

> here is the light at the end of the tunnel, Tanner will come back

> stronger than ever.

>

>

> Take care, Tanner, we are hoping for you.

> and family

>

[Guest guest]

) Deb I meant those of us that post here are not the norm! LOL

Lori brought up that compared to the thousands that are members here

on individual mail or digest -really only a few of us post here- we

are outside the norm -so how do we know what is normal for most

apraxic children? I found years ago the best way to find out the

normal apraxic child is to go to a support group (like Lori is part

of the Children's Hospital in Ohio which has an apraxia center with

tons of other apraxic children) because it's not always those that

post often that represent the most " normal " kids. I do know that

through the years from archives, emails, and phone calls and being

friends with many here that the majority of kids here are mainstreamed and

learn to overcome with appropriate therapies and some alternatives

too (including of course the fish oils) as The Late Talker book talks

about.... and that book was published in 2003! From what I have seen

the majority will post here because they are really happy about

something they want to share, or really upset about something they

want to run past everyone, or because they have a question...less

rare are those that post here to reach out to help others -and less

then .0001 percent continue to stick around even when their child

is " normal " to help others that are newbies. We are so not the norm -

but I consider that a good thing.

Tanner has always been pretty typical of the norm here. Meaning as a

child in this group things that have worked for him typically work

for others when I post here about it. Very few things " work " for

everyone however. Everyone needs some sort of air, water, food.. but

not everyone can eat a peanut or take aspirin..or surge on fish oil.

Just the majority. So out of the few -who else finds mega e best?

Tanner did respond to adding a bit of vitamin E but does that mean he

needed to be on 500 to 1,500 IUs (or more) for some length of time?

What if he just needed a small amount for a short period of time

because he's been on fish oils for over 9 years now?

Clearly Tanner did not do well on mega e or k.

Everyone here who has either good or bad responses on Speak needs to

email here as well as the company because as you say Deb that is the

only way to know who it works for -and they need to be aware. I'm

not good at math but from what I can see here there are quite a few

more actual reports that are negative. I do not consider the level

and amount of negative feedback rumor. We all want to hear positive

too -so if you are just sending positive reports there and only

sending negative here please send positive here too. We need to all

know and share. If we didn't all share we wouldn't have all learned

what we did these past few days which may be very important things to

know for our own child. I only knew about the regression in speech

and didn't relate the rest of what we saw in Tanner like the

headaches and sleeping so much or anything else.

So Lori I say yes to your idea of a poll. It's probably in the best

interest of the children.

Perhaps based on the feedback this group just taught the experts

something that had never been known prior but that will help prevent

this from happening to others. What happens when you give someone,

including preschool 2 year olds - mega dosages of E and K that don't

need it?

Personally I like the how many licks does it take to get to the

tootsie roll center of the tootsie pop question better.

OMG this was my favorite commercial as a kid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGTUFqPJo4

Anyway -here's a message that explains about what we saw on vitamin E

back when -as it was mainly sensory -but I think smoother speech as

well.

BTW the school wants me to come in on Tuesday instead to do a

presentation to the entire school as a " current events " with the head

of school where we'll share about , , and of course my

awesome Tanner. I'm hoping by Tuesday with all the suggestions from

and all the prayers from everyone that this will all be a

distant memory...speaking of which for those of you that emailed me

joking " what they don't use x rays in Florida to diagnose broken

fingers " We only are behind in voting- yes his finger was x rayed!!!

Re: high pain tolerance?

Bonnie...In a word YES! I too have noticed it in my own apraxic son -

and in a word no it's not auto linked to apraxia. Tanner still has

aspects of the unusual pain thing sensory wise. The vitamin E

therapy appeared to help when we first started it -but as you'll read

from the clip below -recently with a broken finger he's still off on

how he senses pain. He claims he knows it hurts -but it's obvious

that he " knows " it hurts the way any of us " know " someone is tapping

our shoulder! Below the most recent clip I have a old message from

2001 that covers how occupational therapy helped with Tanner's

particular aspects of sensory integration dysfunction (pain was just

one of them)

Not all children with apraxia have sensory issues -but many do. And

not all children with sensory issues have it affecting the same

sense. Here's a page from CHERAB on " soft signs "

http://cherab.org/information/speechlanguage/parentfriendlysoftsigns.html

It does appear that we have a number of children here who have

unusual sensory issues in regards to pain -which makes it not rare in

this group -but at the same time it doesn't mean that apraxia and

pain sensation are linked. Apraxia -like autism -appears to be a

syndrome. This is why it's most important to seek out knowledgeable

neuro medical professionals and speech and occupational therapists

for appropriate diagnosis. And this is also why I stress that late

talking and sensory issues is not auto autism. Tanner who has just

turned 12 years old last week has overcome his issues with

appropriate therapies for apraxia -as well as a few alternative

therapies such as fish oil and vitamin E.

~~~~~~~~recent archives from March 08

As we all know the complete cure we may be closer to by adding

vitamin E to the EFAs...goodness knows that today just about any

stranger who would see Tanner wouldn't have a clue of what he went

through -and even if they had a conversation with him they probably

would just think he has a mild speech issue. They wouldn't know that

he still struggles with some simple motor planning when it comes to

buttons and ties...he can do it -but slow and delibratly like he was

much younger -not 11. Unless they were a doctor they would have no

clue that he doesn't feel pain like others do. Imagine how horrified

the parents of his one friend were to find out he broke his finger at

their home playing football. He doesn't cry -he asked for some ice

and then sat out a bit -then he kept playing. When I went to pick

Tanner up he didn't want to leave as they were all still swimming.

It wasn't until his finger swelled up and bruised that I knew he

broke it. Nobody in the ER thought it was broken however because

Tanner was so laid back about it and didn't rank the pain level

high. The X Ray showed however it was. When the doctor at the ER

touched areas around the break and said " does this hurt " he calmly

said " no " When he touched right where the break was and asked " does

this hurt " Tanner calmly answered " yes " but didn't flinch! The

doctor said " wow he doesn't feel pain like others. Too bad he wasn't

a woman he wouldn't need an epidural. " If you ask Tanner about it -

Tanner says he feels pain.

When we first started the vitamin E he seemed to feel pain even more

than normal -which was very awesome...but it seems to have faded

which is why I know I need to change the E formula -because our

change on E is mainly sensory....but I don't even think the issue is

that Tanner doesn't want to take more capsules -I believe that Tanner

is very happy with the way he is. I'm starting to see more about why

adults diagnosed with this or that condition will rebel

against " cures " To them what they know and live with is normal. And

again -to most that just met Tanner today at 11 years old on a street

and asked him directions etc. -they 'would' think he is " normal " And

not just them -Tanner believes himself to be too.

http://www.debtsmart.net/talk/tanner.html

~~~~and another

While some aspects of sensory don't matter -decreased pain can be

dangerous which is still something my son Tanner has. Tanner and I

have spoken about it and he insists that he can in some way feel

pain...in the way you can calmly talk about it vs. screaming in pain

about it.

Offlist I've been speaking with someone about this for Tanner. While

perhaps the button thing still frustrates him -Tanner is happy with

the way he talks and senses things. He's decided he doesn't want to

change. The vitamin E brought increased pain sensation to him which

I of course see as a good thing (child continues to play with a

broken finger -the tough kid that doesn't cry when he gets stitches)

and when we first started the vitamin E -the pain was almost over felt

as you can read in the archives. It's faded and while his speech is

smoother with it-he doesn't want the increased pain sensation -

what's " normal " So I'm not sure if we'll be able to ever change him

at this point. But on the other hand I'm thrilled that his self

esteem is that high- he accepts the way he is -and likes it.

~~~~~~~~~~~which explains why it's hard to try to continue to " fix "

it and from an archive from 2001 which covers more of Tanner's DSI

and other " soft sign " issues as well as how OT helped

From: "

[Guest guest]

I was going to suggest a poll about good/ bad experiences, but it looks

like someone beat me to it. Thanks, , for posting about Sensory

issues as well. My son has quite a few issues that I never could figure

out if they were quirks or SID, but he recently started OT. Everything

from wearing hats (even to bed) to grabbing cinnamon when running out

the door because nothing else was available. His latest thing is rubber

stamps - he'll carry one around and rub it when he needs to. It's nice

to see that there's info about apraxia and SID in the same place.

Hope everything is going better with Tanner. Where I used to forward

all the apraxia emails to one box and read them when I could, I've been

checking a few times a day for good updates on him.

[Guest guest]

,

Jeanne here. I am so sorry that this happened to Tanner, and you are

in my prayers. I hope that no neurological/physical damage was done,

and that the body will heal itself slowly, and he will be back to his

old self soon.

>

> As many of you know my son had a massive regression in speech to the

> point of groping on Speak. He's been off for 7 or 8 days now and

> even though much better his speech is still not where it was prior

to

> Speak which greatly concerns me as he typically responds to changes

> in supplements right away -check the archives most of our kids do

> once back on the " right " oils. I'm guessing it's due to the vitamin

> E and K being fat soluble and still in his body somehow.

>

> I thought today perhaps he still needs the same vitamin E he was on

> before because prior to Speak Tanner was on the 4 ProEFA and 2

ProEPA

> and the high gamma E from Vitamin World....but at the same time

> another part of me didn't want to give him any vitamin E at all for

> at least a few months because I wasn't sure if he already had some

> sort of vitamin poisoning (and because who can I ask as right now I

> trust nobody when it comes to this unknown path) I gave Tanner today

> 1 capsule of high gamma E from Vitamin World which means 200 IU of

> alpha and 200 mg of gamma with his 4 ProEFA and 2 ProEPA

>

> Tanner's speech regressed again today back to being worse. My

> husband is requesting I post this here to let the rest of you know

> how severe this really is to document this and to try to help

prevent

> what has happened to my son Tanner from happening to others. Glenn

> is worried that I somehow neurologically damaged Tanner as we don't

> really know what is going on -and who do we again ask?!! Yes Liz I

> almost feel as stupid as drinking Joy dishwashing liquid as you say

> thinking it was lemonade because there was a pretty picture of a

> lemon on it.

>

> This is not a " indirect negative report, rumor or innuendos " this is

> my son Tanner's dramatic regression on a supplement that contains

the

> exact same Omega 3 and Omega 6 formula that I have had him on since

> 2001 that somehow ended up in a supplement with megadosages of

> vitamin E and K that for the first time in his life brought him back

> to groping in speech. Thank you. And yes I am PISSED.

>

> Tanner has asked for me to come to his school tomorrow to talk to

his

> teachers and friends in class about why his speech has regressed so

> dramatically as he doesn't really know how to explain it -especially

> right now.

>

> I am very angry and sick over this -and Liz I don't want to

> hear " boo " from you. You have no idea what private emails or

> conversations I have that you may not know about -others do.

>

> So just to be clear -if your child like mine regressed or

> had " unusual symptoms " that are negative on Speak and now it's been

a

> few days and your child is starting to get better back on just the

> Omega 3 and 6 oils -do NOT supplement with any amount of extra

> vitamin E -even a " low " dosage of 200/200. I wish someone else

> posted this before me and I hope those of you going through this

> nightmare like me appreciate this advice.

>

> Clearly for the majority of us who's children surged on just the EFA

> oils (which contains about 15 IU of vitamin E per capsule -that's

> it) for the past decade do NOT need megadosages of vitamin E and K.

> I just hope that over time his speech does go back to where it was

> before. Poor little guy -some of the comments here and behind the

> scenes are messing with mamma bears. You do NOT want to go there.

>

> =====

>