Re: Very upset..need some guidance (long) -answer from Cheryl

October 19, 2008

Hi Kayce and Jeanne,

Here's some advice from (once again) Miss Cheryl

http://cherab.org/about/cheryl.html

" I realize that the parents are complaining but at the IEP meeting

when the learning disability teacher consultant or the psychologist

provides the cognitive functioning grade level equivalency in a

particular subject which would be - reading -math -language arts,

the parents must ask at that time for example: " my child is going

into third grade, you are saying he can do the work of a first grader

in 5 months. Will he be doing first grade work or will he be doing

third grade work that has been adapted to the first grade level "

This may be the reason why the resource teacher is sending home work

that is below the grade level the child is in at the present time.

For example in third grade in the area of language arts the children

start learning about the four types of sentences, declarative,

interogatory, imperative, and exclamatory. At the third grade level

they actually use the terms " declarative, interogatory, imperative,

and exclamatory " , but to teach the concept on a first grade level

they say " is this a question sentence, is this an asking sentence. "

They still are teaching but they don't use the same vocabulary.

The parent doesn't need to question the resource teacher they need to

question the person that did the initial testing to find out the

following questions; " How did you arrive on this work area and grade

level for my child? Why is he getting work that seems babyish for

him? "

It's not the resource teacher's fault as she is following the IEP.

You can't blame the messenger -the resource room teacher is the

messenger of the IEP. All of what is going on came from the

testing. Was the testing appropriate for a verbal disabled student?

Was nonverbal testing used?

If you dispute the testing done by the school you can absolutely seek

private evaluations in this area to dispute the testing done by the

school. "

=====

October 19, 2008

I don't know much about the CogAT Kayce but from what I found the

CogAT measures learned reasoning and problem-solving skills in three

different areas: verbal, quantitative, and nonverbal. I also found

it's mainly used to assess children for gifted and highly gifted

placement. Put it this way....it's never come up before in the

archives. Chances are it wasn't an appropriate test. Did you see

the message I sent out about appropriate IQ testing recently? If not

just let me know and I'll find it. I can't wait until they fix the

archives (right Kathy?!)

And Kayce the CogAT may explain the entire problem if it wasn't an

appropriate test for your son.

I can't recall. Did you or are you going to seek outside cognitive

and receptive testing? As always who provides the testing and which

tests are used are most important. Let me know if you need help in

seeking out professionals to work with too. We have a ton of members

from Jersey.

=====

October 19, 2008

Just found this on the CogAT

" Type: Group administered ability test battery

Purpose: To assess students’ abilities in reasoning and problem solving using

verbal, quantitative, and nonverbal (spatial) symbols "

Recent Research on CogAT

Lohman, D. F., Korb, K., & Lakin, J. (under review). Identifying academically

gifted English language learners using nonverbal tests: A comparison of the

Raven, NNAT, and CogAT.

Lohman, D. F. & Renzulli, J. (2007). A simple procedure for combining ability

test scores, achievement test scores, and teacher ratings to identify

academically talented children.

http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/recent_research.html

" Group administered ability test " ... for an apraxic child?

That alone doesn't seem appropriate.

Here's the archive (found it) on appropriate IQ testing for verbal disabled

Hi Xun!

Double wow for you, huh? Most people have no idea what they can

handle until they have to -and don't underestimate the power of

mothers and fathers who do care about their children like you do!

Who's testing was used to determine your children's receptive and

cognitive ability? Have you had your children's skills tested

outside of the school? It's most important to make sure that verbal

disabled children are provided with appropriate cognitive and

receptive testing or of course they will score low. There are laws

set for visual and hearing impaired students -but very few for verbal

disabled students. There's probably more protection towards gay and

obese students then verbal disabled ones! In most cases

professionals, schools, that are skilled at working with hearing

impaired individuals are awesome are testing our children. The IQ

and receptive tests used by hearing impaired students are typically

appropriate as well. As Dr. Tallal once told me there really isn't

any receptive tests out there that are 100% accurate for a verbal

disabled individual -but for sure there are those that are more so

than others. Same goes for the professionals that test them -some

are light years better than others. Please don't just depend on the

school's testing which probably wasn't fair. Talk about violation to

our children's civil rights -it happens all the time with verbal

disabled students being tested for their intelligence on their

ability to verbally communicate the answers. I actually had an SLP

once tell me that my apraxic son Tanner didn't have a good memory

because she told him to repeat back a sentence and he couldn't do

it. This was a speech language pathologist who knew he had apraxia!

And supposedly knew what apraxia was! I said to her (in front of the

school professionals present) " DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT APRAXIS IS?!! "

I was SO pissed! BTW -Tanner's Mr. Memory head. Very little that

child doesn't remember!

It's rare that any of us take our child to a school and they provide

what's needed. It's also sadly rare for a school to just say " OK "

when we present them with services that are needed by our child

according to our child's private therapists or doctors. One wise

private school administrator from the Summit Speech School for the

hearing impaired and deaf ( Kanter who sadly died of cancer)

told me " you have to learn how to play the game " That means provide

them with the information you have which includes the severity

intervention matrix which is used by ASHA and as a guideline by

speech pathologists that work in schools across the US, evaluations

and recommendations from your child's private professionals, and

information from reputable sources on your child's diagnosis and what

therapy is appropriate for that/those conditions.

The school IEP team will let you know that they " don't provide ___ "

or that they " never provide ____ " but funny thing is that they won't

put those statements in writing if they are against federal laws. So

next time the school says to you " we don't provide speech therapy

even if your children's language performance scores were really low

because their overall development skill score is just as low " You

say to them " that's interesting I've never heard of that before.

Would you mind putting that in writing for me and explain why? " If

they won't put it in writing to you -you send a letter (certified

mail) to them documenting the conversation. Keep a paper trail and

next time you meet with them make sure you bring a tape recorder.

That's what gets me with the whole recent case here in Florida. From

what I've seen in general schools are not the ones that are quick to

point out your child needs this or that in extra services. They may

in some cases offer a few things -but without advocacy the child ends

up with what they consider appropriate -but from the archives here

not what an outside expert would consider appropriate. Most people

don't realize how BAD it has to be for the school's IEP team (or

principal of the school as in that case!!) to come to us as parents

and say " Take your child PLEASE and get him evaluated!! "

Did you read The Late Talker book? There is an entire chapter on

advocacy in there. I also have a few archives I can send on

appropriate testing if you need them. Also since you are in Florida

are you sure your children are autistic? I know Tammy who used to

run support in your area has an apraxic child but also know in some

ways Florida is like California in that everything's labeled autism -

even when it's not. If you need the name of someone excellent to

take your children to for evaluation (for both diagnosis and

testing) I highly recommend Dr. Renai Jonas in Boca. I know that's

a hike for you -around 3 or 4 hour drive? But it would be so worth

it I'm sure you'd agree. Besides I know parents who have taken their

kids to her who live in the Panhandle -and say it's worth it.

There's not that many professionals here that I found that really

know about apraxia -and where there are large numbers of autistic

children you'll find even larger numbers of apraxic children -and

that's even outside of the number of autistic children who also have

apraxia!

And from an archive

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:50 pm

Subject: Re: & Tricia - Help with Assessment Tests

Theresa there really are no tests that will 100% be perfect to test

the receptive ability of a speech disabled child -at least one needs

to be developed (would be nice)

Also as we state in The Late Talker -tests used are important -but

the professional chosen to do the testing is at times just as

important.

The hardcover of The Late Talker had so much cut from it because the

publisher didn't want to overwhelm parents of two year old " late

talkers " I agree much of the stuff for older children who truly are

speech impaired is overwhelming for someone who may not even need

that information who has an undiagnosed two year old child with a

speech delay. We (the authors) pushed to add a bit more to the

paperback version of the book -so a bit more on testing in the PB.

I'll retype that part of the book from around page 44 (I

unfortunately have the book and drafts on another computer right

now, and type faster than it would take me to get to that one -so

may be typos in my retype)

" Usually the SLP uses a " standardized " speech -language test, one

with " norms " based on a large sample of typically developing

children. This allows the SLP to assess where your child stands

compared to other children of his age. Since young children are not

always cooperative in sitting through standardized tests, a more

informal evaluation through play may be done. You are then given an

estimate of your child's standing, based on the SLP's training,

knowledge, and experience -her " informed clinical opinion. "

Make sure the testing conditions work for your late talker.

children with speech and expressive language impairments obviously

score less well on a receptive test that requires verbal responses.

It is possible to do speech and language testing for receptive

ability even with children that are essentially nonverbal. In these

cases, the examiner can look at other forms of functional

communication, including the use of gestures, formal sign language,

pictures, and augmentative communication devices.

Here are the more popular language tests or scales that your SLP may

use:

Rossetti Infant Toddler Language Scale (birth to three years)

Preschool Language Scale -3 (PLS-3) (birth to six years)

Clinical Evaluation of Language Functions (CELF) -Preschool (three

through six year) and CELF 3 (six through twenty one)

Receptive One-Word Picture Vocabulary Test (ROWPVT) (two through

eighteen years)

Expressive One-Word Picture Vocabulary Test -Revised

(EOWPVT) (two through twelve years)

Test of Early Language Development-3 (TELD-3) (two through seven

years) "

And then

" Two tests designed more specifically to evaluate children with

motor planning disorders are the Kaufman Speech Praxis Test for

Children (KSPT) and the Verbal Motor Production Assessment for

Children (VMPAC) The KSPT is an assessment tool for kids age twenty-

four to seventy-one months. It measures the child's imitative

responses, identifying where the child breaks down in her ability to

speak, and ranges from simple sounds to polysyllabic words to

spontaneous connected speech. The VMPAC targets an older age group,

three to twelve year olds, measuring motor speech abilities by first

looking at basic processes, like breath support and muscle tone, and

then moving to complex sequencing of syllables. "

And from the " Visiting the Doctor " section of the chapter

" Formal cognitive testing is typically performed by a licensed

psychologist or neurophysiologist. Make sure that you are referred

to one who is familiar with testing nonverbal or unintelligible

children and that she uses age-appropriate 'nonverbal' intelligence

tests, such as the Leiter-R for children two years old and up, the

Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children (KABC) for children four

years old and older, the Universal Nonverbal Intelligence Test

(UNIT) for children five years old and above, or Comprehensive Test

of Nonverbal Intelligence (CTONI) for those six and above) "

And...Here is a great message on how to test children who are

globally apraxic from one of our member's (Sherry) child's doctor -

" Dr. Bob " You can use this in addition to what's in The Late Talker

to help advocate. (Hurray for " Dr. Bob " ! The type of

neuropsychologist we all would love to take our child to)

" Summary of assessment procedures

Children with significant language and motor skills delays

E. Friedle, Ph.D.

Clinical/Neuropsychologist

Formalized assessment of children with low incidence disablitities

does not

often provide accurate or practical information about their cognitive

functioning skills. Such assessmenet does provide evidence that

these

children often have not learned how to respond in direct one-to-one

reciprocal testing situations, or that they are unable to respond in

those

situations due to the nature of their disabilities. The lack of

response

should not be considered then, necessarily, as a global and fixed

delay in

cognitive/intellectual potential. Developmental theorists and

practitioners

have long known that cognitive growth is not only enhanced, but also

dependent upon opportunities to experience a wide variety of sensory

stimuli

in an interactive relationship. Problem solving skills, analytical

reasoning, and decision-making are all formalized, cognitively, when

integration of information is ongoing. Language and motor skill

limitations

often prevent the integration and experiences and thus certain

cognitive

growth waits until such experiences may be provided. Children may

have

learned to problem-solve and reason in ways that are not assessed by

formalized evaluations and are only recognizable when the child is

allowed

to experience sensory information in a manner most productive to

them. It

is often then necessary for the examiner to assess what

opportunities and

experiences the child may have had already, how an assessment may

prompt the

child to show what they can do with various stimuli and how problem

solving,

analytical, and decision making skills can be exhibited by a child

in a

non-formalized approach.

The purpose of an assessment request has to be relevant to the child

and to

their experiences, i.e. the child needs to see some purpose for

providing a

response. A very simple example of this premise is: asking them to

name an

object may result in no response, but asking them to get the object

may show

a knowledgeable response.

Children with language and motor deficits often play within the

restrictions

that their limitations have presented and this " changed " pattern of

play,

from what is seen with non-disabled children, can be a direct

reflection of

their ability to problem solve and reason in play. An example for

this may

be when a child finds that laying things down and flat makes it

easier to

manipulate, or that moving things closer or out of the way

facilitates motor

planning and play. Often the child may see no purpose to expand

experiences, or have not figured out independently how to change

their play

patterns.

Restrictions in movement or language limit the experiences a child

has had

with objects and stimuli. The need to practice simple movements, to

hear

the words that go along with those movements, and then to ask a

child to

duplicate the movements and/or the words can greatly facilitate

cognitive

growth. If a child can readily make such duplicated responses then

the

potential for cognitive growth at that point presents no

limitations. An

examiner can lead the play situation in these types of activities

and note

the ability of the child to engage in the " play " at a different

level. The

purpose is then presented clearly for the child, both for the

language and

for the movement, and thus becomes an active part of their

developmental

growth and understanding. Sometimes showing them or asking them to

change

their approach results in a larger perspective of possibilities in

play.

The examiner is an active participant in the assessment approach,

engaged

with the child in the semi-directed play type of assessment. The

examiner

notes closely when a child shows a lack of understanding of the

language

presented or an inability to make the movements requested. At all

times the

examiner is assessing how well the child appears to follow the

purpose of

the activity or the change in direction of an activity. "

And...Don't forget the proven " Rosenthal theory " I've written about!

http://www.pineforge.com/newman4study/resources/rosenthal1.htm

=====

October 20, 2008

Thanks ! Wow, definitly need some alone time to read thru this one!

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:01 PM, kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

> Just found this on the CogAT

>

> " Type: Group administered ability test battery

>

> Purpose: To assess students' abilities in reasoning and problem solving

> using verbal, quantitative, and nonverbal (spatial) symbols "

>

> Recent Research on CogAT

>

> Lohman, D. F., Korb, K., & Lakin, J. (under review). Identifying

> academically gifted English language learners using nonverbal tests: A

> comparison of the Raven, NNAT, and CogAT.

>

> Lohman, D. F. & Renzulli, J. (2007). A simple procedure for combining

> ability test scores, achievement test scores, and teacher ratings to

> identify academically talented children.

>

> http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/recent_research.html

>

> " Group administered ability test " ... for an apraxic child?

> That alone doesn't seem appropriate.

>

> Here's the archive (found it) on appropriate IQ testing for verbal disabled

>

> Hi Xun!

>

> Double wow for you, huh? Most people have no idea what they can

> handle until they have to -and don't underestimate the power of

> mothers and fathers who do care about their children like you do!

>

> Who's testing was used to determine your children's receptive and

> cognitive ability? Have you had your children's skills tested

> outside of the school? It's most important to make sure that verbal

> disabled children are provided with appropriate cognitive and

> receptive testing or of course they will score low. There are laws

> set for visual and hearing impaired students -but very few for verbal

> disabled students. There's probably more protection towards gay and

> obese students then verbal disabled ones! In most cases

> professionals, schools, that are skilled at working with hearing

> impaired individuals are awesome are testing our children. The IQ

> and receptive tests used by hearing impaired students are typically

> appropriate as well. As Dr. Tallal once told me there really isn't

> any receptive tests out there that are 100% accurate for a verbal

> disabled individual -but for sure there are those that are more so

> than others. Same goes for the professionals that test them -some

> are light years better than others. Please don't just depend on the

> school's testing which probably wasn't fair. Talk about violation to

> our children's civil rights -it happens all the time with verbal

> disabled students being tested for their intelligence on their

> ability to verbally communicate the answers. I actually had an SLP

> once tell me that my apraxic son Tanner didn't have a good memory

> because she told him to repeat back a sentence and he couldn't do

> it. This was a speech language pathologist who knew he had apraxia!

> And supposedly knew what apraxia was! I said to her (in front of the

> school professionals present) " DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT APRAXIS IS?!! "

> I was SO pissed! BTW -Tanner's Mr. Memory head. Very little that

> child doesn't remember!

>

> It's rare that any of us take our child to a school and they provide

> what's needed. It's also sadly rare for a school to just say " OK "

> when we present them with services that are needed by our child

> according to our child's private therapists or doctors. One wise

> private school administrator from the Summit Speech School for the

> hearing impaired and deaf ( Kanter who sadly died of cancer)

> told me " you have to learn how to play the game " That means provide

> them with the information you have which includes the severity

> intervention matrix which is used by ASHA and as a guideline by

> speech pathologists that work in schools across the US, evaluations

> and recommendations from your child's private professionals, and

> information from reputable sources on your child's diagnosis and what

> therapy is appropriate for that/those conditions.

>

> The school IEP team will let you know that they " don't provide ___ "

> or that they " never provide ____ " but funny thing is that they won't

> put those statements in writing if they are against federal laws. So

> next time the school says to you " we don't provide speech therapy

> even if your children's language performance scores were really low

> because their overall development skill score is just as low " You

> say to them " that's interesting I've never heard of that before.

> Would you mind putting that in writing for me and explain why? " If

> they won't put it in writing to you -you send a letter (certified

> mail) to them documenting the conversation. Keep a paper trail and

> next time you meet with them make sure you bring a tape recorder.

>

> That's what gets me with the whole recent case here in Florida. From

> what I've seen in general schools are not the ones that are quick to

> point out your child needs this or that in extra services. They may

> in some cases offer a few things -but without advocacy the child ends

> up with what they consider appropriate -but from the archives here

> not what an outside expert would consider appropriate. Most people

> don't realize how BAD it has to be for the school's IEP team (or

> principal of the school as in that case!!) to come to us as parents

> and say " Take your child PLEASE and get him evaluated!! "

>

> Did you read The Late Talker book? There is an entire chapter on

> advocacy in there. I also have a few archives I can send on

> appropriate testing if you need them. Also since you are in Florida

> are you sure your children are autistic? I know Tammy who used to

> run support in your area has an apraxic child but also know in some

> ways Florida is like California in that everything's labeled autism -

> even when it's not. If you need the name of someone excellent to

> take your children to for evaluation (for both diagnosis and

> testing) I highly recommend Dr. Renai Jonas in Boca. I know that's

> a hike for you -around 3 or 4 hour drive? But it would be so worth

> it I'm sure you'd agree. Besides I know parents who have taken their

> kids to her who live in the Panhandle -and say it's worth it.

> There's not that many professionals here that I found that really

> know about apraxia -and where there are large numbers of autistic

> children you'll find even larger numbers of apraxic children -and

> that's even outside of the number of autistic children who also have

> apraxia!

>

> And from an archive

>

> From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@... <kiddietalk%40>>

> Date: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:50 pm

> Subject: Re: & Tricia - Help with Assessment Tests

>

> Theresa there really are no tests that will 100% be perfect to test

> the receptive ability of a speech disabled child -at least one needs

> to be developed (would be nice)

>

> Also as we state in The Late Talker -tests used are important -but

> the professional chosen to do the testing is at times just as

> important.

>

> The hardcover of The Late Talker had so much cut from it because the

> publisher didn't want to overwhelm parents of two year old " late

> talkers " I agree much of the stuff for older children who truly are

> speech impaired is overwhelming for someone who may not even need

> that information who has an undiagnosed two year old child with a

> speech delay. We (the authors) pushed to add a bit more to the

> paperback version of the book -so a bit more on testing in the PB.

>

> I'll retype that part of the book from around page 44 (I

> unfortunately have the book and drafts on another computer right

> now, and type faster than it would take me to get to that one -so

> may be typos in my retype)

>

> " Usually the SLP uses a " standardized " speech -language test, one

> with " norms " based on a large sample of typically developing

> children. This allows the SLP to assess where your child stands

> compared to other children of his age. Since young children are not

> always cooperative in sitting through standardized tests, a more

> informal evaluation through play may be done. You are then given an

> estimate of your child's standing, based on the SLP's training,

> knowledge, and experience -her " informed clinical opinion. "

>

> Make sure the testing conditions work for your late talker.

> children with speech and expressive language impairments obviously

> score less well on a receptive test that requires verbal responses.

> It is possible to do speech and language testing for receptive

> ability even with children that are essentially nonverbal. In these

> cases, the examiner can look at other forms of functional

> communication, including the use of gestures, formal sign language,

> pictures, and augmentative communication devices.

>

> Here are the more popular language tests or scales that your SLP may

> use:

>

> Rossetti Infant Toddler Language Scale (birth to three years)

> Preschool Language Scale -3 (PLS-3) (birth to six years)

> Clinical Evaluation of Language Functions (CELF) -Preschool (three

> through six year) and CELF 3 (six through twenty one)

> Receptive One-Word Picture Vocabulary Test (ROWPVT) (two through

> eighteen years)

> Expressive One-Word Picture Vocabulary Test -Revised

> (EOWPVT) (two through twelve years)

> Test of Early Language Development-3 (TELD-3) (two through seven

> years) "

>

> And then

>

> " Two tests designed more specifically to evaluate children with

> motor planning disorders are the Kaufman Speech Praxis Test for

> Children (KSPT) and the Verbal Motor Production Assessment for

> Children (VMPAC) The KSPT is an assessment tool for kids age twenty-

> four to seventy-one months. It measures the child's imitative

> responses, identifying where the child breaks down in her ability to

> speak, and ranges from simple sounds to polysyllabic words to

> spontaneous connected speech. The VMPAC targets an older age group,

> three to twelve year olds, measuring motor speech abilities by first

> looking at basic processes, like breath support and muscle tone, and

> then moving to complex sequencing of syllables. "

>

> And from the " Visiting the Doctor " section of the chapter

>

> " Formal cognitive testing is typically performed by a licensed

> psychologist or neurophysiologist. Make sure that you are referred

> to one who is familiar with testing nonverbal or unintelligible

> children and that she uses age-appropriate 'nonverbal' intelligence

> tests, such as the Leiter-R for children two years old and up, the

> Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children (KABC) for children four

> years old and older, the Universal Nonverbal Intelligence Test

> (UNIT) for children five years old and above, or Comprehensive Test

> of Nonverbal Intelligence (CTONI) for those six and above) "

>

> And...Here is a great message on how to test children who are

> globally apraxic from one of our member's (Sherry) child's doctor -

> " Dr. Bob " You can use this in addition to what's in The Late Talker

> to help advocate. (Hurray for " Dr. Bob " ! The type of

> neuropsychologist we all would love to take our child to)

>

> " Summary of assessment procedures

> Children with significant language and motor skills delays

> E. Friedle, Ph.D.

> Clinical/Neuropsychologist

>

> Formalized assessment of children with low incidence disablitities

> does not

> often provide accurate or practical information about their cognitive

> functioning skills. Such assessmenet does provide evidence that

> these

> children often have not learned how to respond in direct one-to-one

> reciprocal testing situations, or that they are unable to respond in

> those

> situations due to the nature of their disabilities. The lack of

> response

> should not be considered then, necessarily, as a global and fixed

> delay in

> cognitive/intellectual potential. Developmental theorists and

> practitioners

> have long known that cognitive growth is not only enhanced, but also

> dependent upon opportunities to experience a wide variety of sensory

> stimuli

> in an interactive relationship. Problem solving skills, analytical

> reasoning, and decision-making are all formalized, cognitively, when

> integration of information is ongoing. Language and motor skill

> limitations

> often prevent the integration and experiences and thus certain

> cognitive

> growth waits until such experiences may be provided. Children may

> have

> learned to problem-solve and reason in ways that are not assessed by

> formalized evaluations and are only recognizable when the child is

> allowed

> to experience sensory information in a manner most productive to

> them. It

> is often then necessary for the examiner to assess what

> opportunities and

> experiences the child may have had already, how an assessment may

> prompt the

> child to show what they can do with various stimuli and how problem

> solving,

> analytical, and decision making skills can be exhibited by a child

> in a

> non-formalized approach.

>

> The purpose of an assessment request has to be relevant to the child

> and to

> their experiences, i.e. the child needs to see some purpose for

> providing a

> response. A very simple example of this premise is: asking them to

> name an

> object may result in no response, but asking them to get the object

> may show

> a knowledgeable response.

>

> Children with language and motor deficits often play within the

> restrictions

> that their limitations have presented and this " changed " pattern of

> play,

> from what is seen with non-disabled children, can be a direct

> reflection of

> their ability to problem solve and reason in play. An example for

> this may

> be when a child finds that laying things down and flat makes it

> easier to

> manipulate, or that moving things closer or out of the way

> facilitates motor

> planning and play. Often the child may see no purpose to expand

> experiences, or have not figured out independently how to change

> their play

> patterns.

>

> Restrictions in movement or language limit the experiences a child

> has had

> with objects and stimuli. The need to practice simple movements, to

> hear

> the words that go along with those movements, and then to ask a

> child to

> duplicate the movements and/or the words can greatly facilitate

> cognitive

> growth. If a child can readily make such duplicated responses then

> the

> potential for cognitive growth at that point presents no

> limitations. An

> examiner can lead the play situation in these types of activities

> and note

> the ability of the child to engage in the " play " at a different

> level. The

> purpose is then presented clearly for the child, both for the

> language and

> for the movement, and thus becomes an active part of their

> developmental

> growth and understanding. Sometimes showing them or asking them to

> change

> their approach results in a larger perspective of possibilities in

> play.

> The examiner is an active participant in the assessment approach,

> engaged

> with the child in the semi-directed play type of assessment. The

> examiner

> notes closely when a child shows a lack of understanding of the

> language

> presented or an inability to make the movements requested. At all

> times the

> examiner is assessing how well the child appears to follow the

> purpose of

> the activity or the change in direction of an activity. "

>

> And...Don't forget the proven " Rosenthal theory " I've written about!

> http://www.pineforge.com/newman4study/resources/rosenthal1.htm

>

> =====

>

October 20, 2008

I had a developmental eval done, but I don't think it's the same. If you

have some time & can get me some numbers, I'd appreciate it. (I'm in

southern ocean county, 1/2 hr north of atlantic city).

Curious to see the teacher's response to that email I sent.

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 8:35 PM, kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

> I don't know much about the CogAT Kayce but from what I found the

> CogAT measures learned reasoning and problem-solving skills in three

> different areas: verbal, quantitative, and nonverbal. I also found

> it's mainly used to assess children for gifted and highly gifted

> placement. Put it this way....it's never come up before in the

> archives. Chances are it wasn't an appropriate test. Did you see

> the message I sent out about appropriate IQ testing recently? If not

> just let me know and I'll find it. I can't wait until they fix the

> archives (right Kathy?!)

>

> And Kayce the CogAT may explain the entire problem if it wasn't an

> appropriate test for your son.

>

> I can't recall. Did you or are you going to seek outside cognitive

> and receptive testing? As always who provides the testing and which

> tests are used are most important. Let me know if you need help in

> seeking out professionals to work with too. We have a ton of members

> from Jersey.

>

> =====

>

October 20, 2008

I would also like to add that my daughter, the one not being taught

at her level, is also going to be taking the CoGat. But, for an

entirely different reason: to be used to determine her eligibility

for the gifted program. You can always ask, why are you

administering this test? Who can interpret the non-verbal portions of

this test? Are the verbal findings for this test guiding the level

of curriculum appropriate for my child?

It sounds like the teacher doesn't know what to do, or lacks the

resources to provide his education. If she won't go out and get

those, you have to. It sounds like you got a great recommendation on

a non-verbal way for learning phonics. This can be added as a

resource needed to implement or reach the goals of his IFSP. You

need to bring new ideas, different professionals, and more resources

to a problem that is not being solved. It doesn't seem to be

creating the results you are looking for utilizing what is available

to you now- materials or staff-wise.

Penny

>

> Just found this on the CogAT

>

> " Type: Group administered ability test battery

>

> Purpose: To assess students' abilities in reasoning and problem

solving using verbal, quantitative, and nonverbal (spatial) symbols "

>

> Recent Research on CogAT

>

> Lohman, D. F., Korb, K., & Lakin, J. (under review). Identifying

academically gifted English language learners using nonverbal tests:

A comparison of the Raven, NNAT, and CogAT.

>

> Lohman, D. F. & Renzulli, J. (2007). A simple procedure for

combining ability test scores, achievement test scores, and teacher

ratings to identify academically talented children.

>

> http://www.riverpub.com/products/cogAt/recent_research.html

>

> " Group administered ability test " ... for an apraxic child?

> That alone doesn't seem appropriate.

>

> Here's the archive (found it) on appropriate IQ testing for verbal

disabled

>

> Hi Xun!

>

> Double wow for you, huh? Most people have no idea what they can

> handle until they have to -and don't underestimate the power of

> mothers and fathers who do care about their children like you do!

>

> Who's testing was used to determine your children's receptive and

> cognitive ability? Have you had your children's skills tested

> outside of the school? It's most important to make sure that verbal

> disabled children are provided with appropriate cognitive and

> receptive testing or of course they will score low. There are laws

> set for visual and hearing impaired students -but very few for

verbal