Re: McCarthy

September 22, 2008

On the flip side

Our society views labor and birth as pathological, an illness that needs to

be fixed or cured. Since the beginning of time, humans have given birth

without medical help or intervention. Routine use of technology can interfere

with

the normal birth process. We have MANY unneeded c/s and accidents and

unnecessary situations everyday in L & D. IMO I believe a home birth is safe, if

not

safer then a hospital birth.

**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and

calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

September 22, 2008

My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth have

it in the hospital. If there is an emergency you can choose to use

the help or not,

With my delivery, her head was pushing up on my pubic bone. They had

to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out on

our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.

On Sep 22, 2008, at 2:30 PM, marcitrix wrote:

> I was frustrated to read that along with having McCarthy on the

> show own Wednesday they are also doing a segment on childbirth

> complications... FEAR MONGERING??? After showing the potential harm a

> doctor can cause by convincing to use vaccinate, we need to show what

> saints they are in saving our children from childbirth

> complications....grrrrr A perfect set up for the homebirth horror

> stories show Dr. Phil is trying to get done.

> Marci

>

> >

> > McCarthy has a new book out titled " Mother Warriors " . It is a

> > collection of stories from Moms who healed their Autistic children.

> >

> > She and Jim Carrey will also be on Oprah Winfrey this Wednesday,

> Sept

> > 24th. If you go to Oprah Winfrey's website, you have a chance to

> talk

> > McCarthy live and ask any questions.

> >

>

September 22, 2008

At 09:19 PM 9/22/2008, you wrote:

>My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth have

>it in the hospital. If there is an emergency you can choose to use

>the help or not,

>With my delivery, her head was pushing up on my pubic bone. They had

>to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out on

>our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.

Some midwives know how to help with these situations. Doctors don't or won't.

Huge numbers of women have births at home - some unassisted other

than by their spouse

This would be best on OT4VAX list

Sheri

September 22, 2008

Not all situations....

On Sep 22, 2008, at 4:31 PM, Sheri Nakken wrote:

> At 09:19 PM 9/22/2008, you wrote:

> >My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth have

> >it in the hospital. If there is an emergency you can choose to use

> >the help or not,

> >With my delivery, her head was pushing up on my pubic bone. They had

> >to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out on

> >our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.

>

> Some midwives know how to help with these situations. Doctors don't

> or won't.

>

> Huge numbers of women have births at home - some unassisted other

> than by their spouse

>

> This would be best on OT4VAX list

> Sheri

>

September 22, 2008

> My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth have

> it in the hospital.

#### " Natural birth " and " hospital " just don't go together in that

sense. Hospital is usually associated with procedures and

interventions. Yes, you can have a natural birth in a hospital, but you

have to work really hard at it and make sure you have support with you.

But you also run a huge risk of catching an infection while being there.

If there is an emergency you can choose to use

> the help or not, with my delivery, her head was pushing up on my

pubic bone. They had

> to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out

on

> our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.

#### I don't remember how long exactly, but I pushed longer than that.

I was exhausted, pushed really slowly and my blood pressure was

climbing steadily. Was I panicking? No. Neither was anyone else. My

body was just adjusting to the labor. Had I gone to a hospital, I would

have had a C-section.

To me, one of the biggest bonuses was not having to fight with staff

about having my baby taken away for tests, weighing, eye drops, vax,

etc. He never left my side.

Back on topic now

Magda

September 22, 2008

I had pre-eclemsia(spelling?) too. I was high risk.

I was pushing 2 hours because she couldn't get out! she also inhaled

amniotic fluid and was a little washed out in color.

You can have a natural birth at the hospital and they will leave you

alone if that is what you agreed to. You can't say that in every

situation you wont need them. They ARE good for something. I think

being extreme is dangerous. Everything has its place and time.

As for diseases....that is why I don't bring her to all of the

doctors visits at the pedi. Just occasionally. But everybody keeps

saying it is the terrain.

Just like with the vaccinations, if your not in that position of

having something bad happen, you just don't understand it. I know I

did the right thing.

On Sep 22, 2008, at 4:47 PM, Magda Velecky wrote:

> > My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth have

> > it in the hospital.

> #### " Natural birth " and " hospital " just don't go together in that

> sense. Hospital is usually associated with procedures and

> interventions. Yes, you can have a natural birth in a hospital, but

> you

> have to work really hard at it and make sure you have support with

> you.

> But you also run a huge risk of catching an infection while being

> there.

>

> If there is an emergency you can choose to use

> > the help or not, with my delivery, her head was pushing up on my

> pubic bone. They had

> > to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out

> on

> > our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.

> #### I don't remember how long exactly, but I pushed longer than that.

> I was exhausted, pushed really slowly and my blood pressure was

> climbing steadily. Was I panicking? No. Neither was anyone else. My

> body was just adjusting to the labor. Had I gone to a hospital, I

> would

> have had a C-section.

> To me, one of the biggest bonuses was not having to fight with staff

> about having my baby taken away for tests, weighing, eye drops, vax,

> etc. He never left my side.

> Back on topic now

> Magda

>

September 22, 2008

Just like with the vaccinations, if your not in that position of

having something bad happen, you just don't understand it. I know I

did the right thing.

Good for you. For some women, doing the right thing for them is staying home.

It's extreme to say everyone needs to follow the same protocol.

Bronwyn

Wife to Kurt since 5/02

Mom to:

Dorian (7/04)

Faith (2/06)

Quinn (4/08)

and my faithful steed Teo (4/91) since 9/95

September 22, 2008

Well,. I also believe in a family member staying home with a child

it's important if it can be done. But I wouldn't make it a law.

Conventional meds have a one size fits all mat-to. I strongly

disagree with.

However, I still believe if something happens at home and you decide

to go to the hospital ER that could take precious time away that

could of been used to help the child. Again,

I would never make it a law to go there for delivery!! That is just

my opinion. If I could make it a law, I still wouldn't.

Correy

On Sep 22, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Bronwyn Fackrell wrote:

>

> Just like with the vaccinations, if your not in that position of

>

> having something bad happen, you just don't understand it. I know I

>

> did the right thing.

>

> Good for you. For some women, doing the right thing for them is

> staying home. It's extreme to say everyone needs to follow the same

> protocol.

>

> Bronwyn

> Wife to Kurt since 5/02

> Mom to:

> Dorian (7/04)

> Faith (2/06)

> Quinn (4/08)

> and my faithful steed Teo (4/91) since 9/95

>

September 22, 2008

>>>My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth have

it in the hospital. If there is an emergency you can choose to use

the help or not,

With my delivery, her head was pushing up on my pubic bone. They had

to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out on

our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.<<<

That must have been tiring, so sorry you had to go through that. I've been at

two homebirths where that happened, a few with a cervical lip, they still had

their babies at home. Midwives are knowledgeable about different positions to

get into, changing poitions, and other " techniques " that some doctors don't have

time for, or let you do in the hospital (don't believe me? I was a doula for a

gal who they would NOT let get off the bed!). Most homebirthers have a back up

plan and know exactly how far away the hospital is, in my case, I was 4 blocks

away.

Your " personal " beliefs sound just like the " personal beliefs " of those who know

nothing about not vaccinating. Do you get irrate when a mom say's " I didn't

know I had a choice, I didn't really look into it " ? I feel the same way when a

mom blindly tells others homebirth is not safe, without any facts to back it

up. Isn't being on this list all about BEING INFORMED, not having others

opinions shoved down our throats. I'm sorry you had to go through that, I know

it couldn'thave been good at all, but I also know that situations like that are

handled differently everywhere, and your outcome isn't everyones outcome, some

managed without intervention, some didn't.

~Cassie Sala~

http://canyonandriversday.blogspot.com

“Vaccines represent consumer goods – and parents should research this product

far more carefully than other purchases because their children’s lives could be

at stake.” ~Randall Neustaedter, OMD (The Vaccine Guide: Making An Informed

Choice)

September 22, 2008

Just in case you can't manage with out intervention, be in or near

the hospital.

I researched home births and spoke to a doula. I decided against it.

Especially, since I was high risk.

One cannot predict what will happen!

to extreme is not good!!

On Sep 22, 2008, at 6:57 PM, Cassie S wrote:

>

> >>>My personal belief is if you are going to have a natural birth

> have

> it in the hospital. If there is an emergency you can choose to use

> the help or not,

> With my delivery, her head was pushing up on my pubic bone. They had

> to suck her out. What if I was at home and we couldn't get her out on

> our own? What then. I was pushing for 2 hours.<<<

>

> That must have been tiring, so sorry you had to go through that.

> I've been at two homebirths where that happened, a few with a

> cervical lip, they still had their babies at home. Midwives are

> knowledgeable about different positions to get into, changing

> poitions, and other " techniques " that some doctors don't have time

> for, or let you do in the hospital (don't believe me? I was a

> doula for a gal who they would NOT let get off the bed!). Most

> homebirthers have a back up plan and know exactly how far away the

> hospital is, in my case, I was 4 blocks away.

> Your " personal " beliefs sound just like the " personal beliefs " of

> those who know nothing about not vaccinating. Do you get irrate

> when a mom say's " I didn't know I had a choice, I didn't really

> look into it " ? I feel the same way when a mom blindly tells others

> homebirth is not safe, without any facts to back it up. Isn't

> being on this list all about BEING INFORMED, not having others

> opinions shoved down our throats. I'm sorry you had to go through

> that, I know it couldn'thave been good at all, but I also know that

> situations like that are handled differently everywhere, and your

> outcome isn't everyones outcome, some managed without intervention,

> some didn't.

>

> ~Cassie Sala~

> http://canyonandriversday.blogspot.com

> “Vaccines represent consumer goods – and parents should research

> this product far more carefully than other purchases because their

> children’s lives could be at stake.” ~Randall Neustaedter, OMD (The

> Vaccine Guide: Making An Informed Choice)

>

September 22, 2008

Many women in the past died when they gave birth.

And yes, there are many unnecessary procedures.

On Sep 22, 2008, at 7:23 PM, GranolaMama5@... wrote:

>

> On the flip side

>

> Our society views labor and birth as pathological, an illness that

> needs to

> be fixed or cured. Since the beginning of time, humans have given

> birth

> without medical help or intervention. Routine use of technology can

> interfere with

> the normal birth process. We have MANY unneeded c/s and accidents and

> unnecessary situations everyday in L & D. IMO I believe a home birth

> is safe, if not

> safer then a hospital birth.

>

> **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial

> challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and

> information, tips and

> calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

>

September 22, 2008

From: Le <kdhrtd@...>

Subject: Re: re: McCarthy

Vaccinations

Date: Monday, September 22, 2008, 4:31 PM

Many women in the past died when they gave birth.

And many women now die because of unnecessary intervention. You said you

researched homebirth and even spoke to a doula (though you made no mention of a

homebirth midwife.) But the things you keep saying do not indicate that you have

done this research. Try this reading list of thoroughly researched

well-documented books.

The Thinking Woman's Guide to Better Birth by Henci Goer

Obstetric Myths vs Research Realities also by Henci Goer

Pushed by Block

Born in the USA by Marsden Wagner

Mal(e)practice by Mendelsohn

Silent Knife by Wainer Cohen and Lois Estner

Open Season by Nancey Wainer Cohen

This topic is a lot like vaccines. Is the human race better off for having

vaccines? Most on this list say no. Is the human race better off for having

every birthing woman subjected to your typical hospital birth? Many on this list

say no, and the above books give and excellent case as to why. Please read any

of them. And look up the Brewer diet for prevention of pre ecclempsia.

Bronwyn

September 22, 2008

When we chose to stop vaccinating our children my mom told my dad she

has never been so upset before in her life. Over the past few years

she has had time to accept that no matter how upset she is about it we

aren't going to change our mind. My sister has heard what I have had

to say and just recently decided (upon getting even more info from a

chiro) that she to is going to stop vaccinating. As far as my mom is

concerned we are " to extreme " and is not a good choice. When making

blanket statements like this be aware that just because the choice

doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it won't work for someone

else. Your definition of " extreme " is most certainly different than

mine. I think my sister said it best when she said, " Different isn't

wrong it is just different. " So my choice to birth my 5th child at

home withOUT anyone but my husband to assist isn't wrong because you

don't agree with it, only different than what you would do.

In all my time trying to educate people about vaccines I have learned

that the moment we start to judge others because their choices are

different than ours is the moment that we become ignorant again. We

all make the decisions that we do based upon the best information that

we have at the time. There are many a mother who have come on this

board racked with guilt over the previous vaccines they have given

their children, I have had my moments of this as well. The seasoned

non vaxers were there to educate and comfort me and the others with the

fact that we were only doing the best that we could with the

information we had at the time. A healer that my husband went to

taught me a great lesson he told us that, when people tell him that

what he is doing is wrong it only makes him love them more. I had a

lightbulb moment then, I truly believe that having compassion for

people will do far more than judging them ever will.

Marci

> One cannot predict what will happen!

>

> to extreme is not good!!

September 22, 2008

I don't believe in typical hospital births. And yes, I did research

it. And no...this has nothing to do with vaccines.

And things can happen in the home where there is a limited amount of

help. There can be a balance.

If I had a home birth my baby and I would both be dead! I won't get

into detail.

More mothers died before, then in the hospitals now. Birth was the

number one reason women used to die. How many women do you know that

died in childbirth???? I bet you your great, great grandmother could

not say the same.

I think there needs to be more flexibility. You need to give credit

where it is due..not ignore it. I don't agree with most of the

things they do in hospitals. But in emergencies the are needed. and

it doesnt have to be one way or the other.

You can still do a natural birth in the hospital.

On Sep 22, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Bronwyn Fackrell wrote:

>

> From: Le <kdhrtd@...>

> Subject: Re: re: McCarthy

> Vaccinations

> Date: Monday, September 22, 2008, 4:31 PM

>

> Many women in the past died when they gave birth.

>

> And many women now die because of unnecessary intervention. You

> said you researched homebirth and even spoke to a doula (though you

> made no mention of a homebirth midwife.) But the things you keep

> saying do not indicate that you have done this research. Try this

> reading list of thoroughly researched well-documented books.

>

> The Thinking Woman's Guide to Better Birth by Henci Goer

> Obstetric Myths vs Research Realities also by Henci Goer

> Pushed by Block

> Born in the USA by Marsden Wagner

> Mal(e)practice by Mendelsohn

> Silent Knife by Wainer Cohen and Lois Estner

> Open Season by Nancey Wainer Cohen

>

> This topic is a lot like vaccines. Is the human race better off for

> having vaccines? Most on this list say no. Is the human race better

> off for having every birthing woman subjected to your typical

> hospital birth? Many on this list say no, and the above books give

> and excellent case as to why. Please read any of them. And look up

> the Brewer diet for prevention of pre ecclempsia.

>

> Bronwyn

>

September 22, 2008

I dont think you read the whole thread.

This is just my opinion. Anyone can do what they want. I feel there

is a middle ground on this subject. You are judging me because my

opinion is different. I just don't think it is safe.

On Sep 22, 2008, at 8:41 PM, marcitrix wrote:

> When we chose to stop vaccinating our children my mom told my dad she

> has never been so upset before in her life. Over the past few years

> she has had time to accept that no matter how upset she is about it we

> aren't going to change our mind. My sister has heard what I have had

> to say and just recently decided (upon getting even more info from a

> chiro) that she to is going to stop vaccinating. As far as my mom is

> concerned we are " to extreme " and is not a good choice. When making

> blanket statements like this be aware that just because the choice

> doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it won't work for someone

> else. Your definition of " extreme " is most certainly different than

> mine. I think my sister said it best when she said, " Different isn't

> wrong it is just different. " So my choice to birth my 5th child at

> home withOUT anyone but my husband to assist isn't wrong because you

> don't agree with it, only different than what you would do.

> In all my time trying to educate people about vaccines I have learned

> that the moment we start to judge others because their choices are

> different than ours is the moment that we become ignorant again. We

> all make the decisions that we do based upon the best information that

> we have at the time. There are many a mother who have come on this

> board racked with guilt over the previous vaccines they have given

> their children, I have had my moments of this as well. The seasoned

> non vaxers were there to educate and comfort me and the others with

> the

> fact that we were only doing the best that we could with the

> information we had at the time. A healer that my husband went to

> taught me a great lesson he told us that, when people tell him that

> what he is doing is wrong it only makes him love them more. I had a

> lightbulb moment then, I truly believe that having compassion for

> people will do far more than judging them ever will.

>

> Marci

>

> > One cannot predict what will happen!

> >

> > to extreme is not good!!

>

September 22, 2008

Well, I'm done banging my head against a wall. It's been fun debating with you,

but like most debates, it's pointless.

Bronwyn

Wife to Kurt since 5/02

Mom to:

Dorian (7/04)

Faith (2/06)

Quinn (4/08)

and my faithful steed Teo (4/91) since 9/95

September 22, 2008

I was just thinking the same.

Just agree to disagree. I am not budging on this point. But I know we

agree on a lot of other points!

Thanks for the emails

On Sep 22, 2008, at 8:50 PM, Bronwyn Fackrell wrote:

> Well, I'm done banging my head against a wall. It's been fun

> debating with you, but like most debates, it's pointless.

>

> Bronwyn

> Wife to Kurt since 5/02

> Mom to:

> Dorian (7/04)

> Faith (2/06)

> Quinn (4/08)

> and my faithful steed Teo (4/91) since 9/95

>

September 22, 2008

I started the thread.

I'm not judging you, your belief that it is best to birth in the

hospital is what works best for you. I'm sorry if you felt that

way. You did preface your feelings my stating that it was your

opinion. However your comment about being to extreme not being good,

is where I wanted to share that everyone's definition of " exteme " is

different. Where I was when we decided to not vax and where we are

today (birthing decisions included)... let me just stay if you had

told me three years ago I would be living the lifestyle I do today I

would have said that you were nuts! For a long time my husband has

said that we are the weird ones in the family, I prefer to think that

we are the normal ones and everyone else is weird

Marci

>

> > When we chose to stop vaccinating our children my mom told my dad

she

> > has never been so upset before in her life. Over the past few

years

> > she has had time to accept that no matter how upset she is about

it we

> > aren't going to change our mind. My sister has heard what I have

had

> > to say and just recently decided (upon getting even more info

from a

> > chiro) that she to is going to stop vaccinating. As far as my mom

is

> > concerned we are " to extreme " and is not a good choice. When

making

> > blanket statements like this be aware that just because the choice

> > doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it won't work for someone

> > else. Your definition of " extreme " is most certainly different

than

> > mine. I think my sister said it best when she said, " Different

isn't

> > wrong it is just different. " So my choice to birth my 5th child at

> > home withOUT anyone but my husband to assist isn't wrong because

you

> > don't agree with it, only different than what you would do.

> > In all my time trying to educate people about vaccines I have

learned

> > that the moment we start to judge others because their choices are

> > different than ours is the moment that we become ignorant again.

We

> > all make the decisions that we do based upon the best information

that

> > we have at the time. There are many a mother who have come on this

> > board racked with guilt over the previous vaccines they have given

> > their children, I have had my moments of this as well. The

seasoned

> > non vaxers were there to educate and comfort me and the others

with

> > the

> > fact that we were only doing the best that we could with the

> > information we had at the time. A healer that my husband went to

> > taught me a great lesson he told us that, when people tell him

that

> > what he is doing is wrong it only makes him love them more. I had

a

> > lightbulb moment then, I truly believe that having compassion for

> > people will do far more than judging them ever will.

> >

> > Marci

> >

> > > One cannot predict what will happen!

> > >

> > > to extreme is not good!!

> >

>

September 22, 2008

LOL You are the smart ones. Same here. I do want to be as natural

as possible.

The reason I am so....hmmm, opinionated on this subject it's because

my child and I would of died if we had had a home birth. I didn't get

into to much detail because it is to painful to rehash. So...it is my

fault for not explaining properly.

On Sep 22, 2008, at 9:06 PM, marcitrix wrote:

> I started the thread.

> I'm not judging you, your belief that it is best to birth in the

> hospital is what works best for you. I'm sorry if you felt that

> way. You did preface your feelings my stating that it was your

> opinion. However your comment about being to extreme not being good,

> is where I wanted to share that everyone's definition of " exteme " is

> different. Where I was when we decided to not vax and where we are

> today (birthing decisions included)... let me just stay if you had

> told me three years ago I would be living the lifestyle I do today I

> would have said that you were nuts! For a long time my husband has

> said that we are the weird ones in the family, I prefer to think that

> we are the normal ones and everyone else is weird

> Marci

>

> >

> > > When we chose to stop vaccinating our children my mom told my dad

> she

> > > has never been so upset before in her life. Over the past few

> years

> > > she has had time to accept that no matter how upset she is about

> it we

> > > aren't going to change our mind. My sister has heard what I have

> had

> > > to say and just recently decided (upon getting even more info

> from a

> > > chiro) that she to is going to stop vaccinating. As far as my mom

> is

> > > concerned we are " to extreme " and is not a good choice. When

> making

> > > blanket statements like this be aware that just because the choice

> > > doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it won't work for someone

> > > else. Your definition of " extreme " is most certainly different

> than

> > > mine. I think my sister said it best when she said, " Different

> isn't

> > > wrong it is just different. " So my choice to birth my 5th child at

> > > home withOUT anyone but my husband to assist isn't wrong because

> you

> > > don't agree with it, only different than what you would do.

> > > In all my time trying to educate people about vaccines I have

> learned

> > > that the moment we start to judge others because their choices are

> > > different than ours is the moment that we become ignorant again.

> We

> > > all make the decisions that we do based upon the best information

> that

> > > we have at the time. There are many a mother who have come on this

> > > board racked with guilt over the previous vaccines they have given

> > > their children, I have had my moments of this as well. The

> seasoned

> > > non vaxers were there to educate and comfort me and the others

> with

> > > the

> > > fact that we were only doing the best that we could with the

> > > information we had at the time. A healer that my husband went to

> > > taught me a great lesson he told us that, when people tell him

> that

> > > what he is doing is wrong it only makes him love them more. I had

> a

> > > lightbulb moment then, I truly believe that having compassion for

> > > people will do far more than judging them ever will.

> > >

> > > Marci

> > >

> > > > One cannot predict what will happen!

> > > >

> > > > to extreme is not good!!

> > >

> >

September 22, 2008

I applaud your lifestyle and decision to homebirth with your husband, Marci!

For what it’s worth, I recently had a lovely talk with my Dad about

homebirthing. He is the 11th child out of 12 children. He was telling me

that his mother gave birth to all 12 children at home, unassisted. By the

time she was birthing her 7th child, the eldest boy would let the doctor

know how his mother was doing, after the birth, and several hours

postpartum, by simply riding a bike to the doctor’s home and giving him a

summary of how things went. The doctor would check up on her about a week

later or so…and this was in the 1920’s and 1930’s (my father, second to

youngest, being born in 1938). An amazing woman. I wish I’d known her

personally, but she passed away before I was born.

~Chris~

_____

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ] On

Behalf Of marcitrix

Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 6:07 PM

Vaccinations

Subject: [sPAM] Re: McCarthy