Re: fluctuations

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

thanks for the excellent post. Very encouraging to know that there

may be other ob/obs out there.

I do use data and gut feelings. I am more inclined toward data,

since it gives my gut feeling a brain check. My gut can get pretty

greedy.

One datum I recently extrapolated from RLW's comment that for average

people (he means men, about 144-150 pounds...at about 68 inches.

I know, because he's about that size, and it used to be average

when he and I were kids)...probably the caloric intake for optimal

increased metabolic efficiency is around 1800 calories. If that 's

true, and one divides 1800 by 68 inches, you arrive at a factor

of 26.5 calories per inch. If that works, then a similar

figure for a person of 74 inches might be 1960 calories per day,

more or less. This figure would reflect the thought that

rats in cages get a specific amount of food energy per day. And,

as I recall from reading Weindruch and Walford's combined effort,

the heaviest lab animals for a given caloric intake lived longer than the

small animals.

So, without departing from my basic position that being obese

may be harmful even if one is croning, a one energy quantity

fits all - not regardless of height but regardless of weight -

may be accurate. After all, the heavier you are for

a given caloric intake and evergy expenditure, the more efficient

your metabolism must be. If I said that right.

So, while I think I can get down to 150# eventually, If

I don't but am maintaining roughly 1800 or 1900 calories a day, with

cool body temperature, cold hands and a warm heart,

I'll feel I'm on the program. To continue, I notice that

the mice who are croned are also very active little characters, so

non-exercised may be a mistaken understanding. The amount of scurrying

they do (per video clips) seems easily equivalent to my 15 miles of walking

per week. Hanging from the stick is a pretty good equivalent of weight

lifting, too, I would say. (They hurry around and hang from

stuff...lots of energy!).

I find your comments on your lipids not surprising, since reducing

dietary fat to 30% does nothing, but reducing it to less than 17%

does a lot.

Also, encouraging to me, since I have to drop the Lipitor,

I can be hopeful (and really motivated) that my numbers, which

have been excellent, will only take a temporary jump upward.

Right now, I'm about 28% fat, which If I improve dramatically

as dramatically as you as I slide on down to 17% fat, means I only

have about 10% of my weight to go before the natural protection of cron

creeps in. Or, about 20 pounds of fat, with no loss of

muscle.

Well, It's lunch time. Better go eat some Walford

Salad. Let's see, dwidp says I need some carrot, marinara

sauce, loose leaf lettuce, and a cup of pinto beans sometime

today..and some source of calcium. I believe I can work that into

a salad.

Great to hear from you

Ed S.

michael colella wrote:

Hi

Ed, It looks like you and i have

a lot in common. I weighed 270 lbs at 16! issue of what the

hell is ad lib. In the final analysis i think you are on the right

track because you are looking at the data: your lipids, blood pressure,

prognoses to illness, intrinsic gut feeling (hopefully you are, I think

there is merit to this) and these parameters along with the fact that you

are naturally fat by nature will hopefully lead you on a discreet course

of action. But what is discreet, I suppose

for you to eliminate those obesity factors. Let me tell you this

because it is quite strange. I had absolutely no movement in my lipd

numbers until i dropped the last 20 lbs.!!! I am serious even though it

sounds unbelievable. To this day i find it hard to imagine.

At the high 180's which i hovered at for years I needed maximum dose zocor

and still had cholesterol in the high 200's. But that last 20 lbs.

that I lost 3 years ago had a trapdoor effect and I was finally able to

slash the zocor down to 20 mg. and the blood pressure and heart rate fell

with it. So I guess your on the right track and at some point you'll

hit the mark I'm sure. Good Luck! By

the way Ed, you are right we are speculating in one sense, but I guess

the truth of it is in the numbers and how you feel and that is an individual

thing. Regards, Mike

Colella

----- Original Message -----

From:

sully@...

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:44

PM

Subject: Re: [ ]

Re: Body Fat Increasing Fluxuation

,

no, it doesn't sound as if you're nit-picking. I've spent

many hours attempting to research exactly that question. The problem

is, we're both speculating. We know that cr'd ob ob mice/rats

live long and health lives. For them, it is even better than the

lean varieties, because they tend to avoid the early death syndromes

connected with obesity.

The problem is, none of us knows what brand of ob ob mouse he

is.

In my case, I have been heavy or dieting all of my life.

I am a little more muscular (or so my Tanita and Doc say) than most.

My kids run from about 250 pounds up through 400 pounds (down from 500

pounds)...and none of us is tall.

I use the 25 bmi because it's the best guess out there. Walford

remarks, I recall, that ob ob's can be just average weight, or a

bmi of 22 (that's what the bmi experts say is average or healthful weight)...or

they can even appear to be a little plump...which puts you right at

a bmi of abut 25. Now...I am well below set point.

I could give you the data to verify that, but just accept that I

gain weight very easily indeed...have cold hands, a slightly

depressed temperature, and weigh about 203 pounds at 5 feet 8 inches.

And that's fibbing a little. Now...I am clearly calorie restricted..averaging

about 1900 calories, and when my program is working for me

(I've had some problems with my Statin drug and have now dropped it)...exercising

to a net calorie consumption of about 1400 calories. I do lose weight

at that level...but slowly. Yet my lbm is well over 150...most

of the time. So...I have increased energy efficiency, lowered body

temperature, and most of the other signs of an effective cron program.

Yet, I also have the problems that accompany overweight (at

bmi 31 I just squeek into the obesity column). I have blood

pressure that is quite high, may have high cholesterol without the

statin drug, and in fact was diagnosed with one of the fancy hyperlipidemia

labels about 7 years ago.

But, when my weight gets down to 183 (still not down to bmi 25)

most of the extreme signs of a shortened life span begin to fade away.

My bp is usually normal (in other words still too high, but

in the 130's over 80's anyway), cholesterol was so low with the Lipitor

that we cut the dosage. Every probability that reducing my

weight still farther would wipe out all of these fatness associated

undesirable biomarkers.

Now, at exactly what weight would I really be there? or

do I have to get to 10% bodyfat?

I don't know. If I get there before I reach bmi 25,

I'll sure as heck slow down...and maybe stop losing weight.

The point is, there is not exact weight at which we're where

we need to be. If you're an ob ob and you believe Walford,

one will try for a bmi of 22 to 25. If one starts out leaner,

one is probably going for 17 to 19...very slim indeed.

My point is that I am a good example of a person who is clearly on a

cron diet, with at least a 30 per cent reduction of calories below

set point, who still has health challenges associated with obesity.

There are others out there like me. But, most people are not.

So, I suggest to others, like me, who are overfat,

that they look at reducing that fat to the point where their bmi is at

least down to 25. I don't really know what anybody's bmi.

should be. Not even mine. I'm just guessing that I'll be healthier

at 158 than 203. I weighed 158 for a couple of days, once.

Boy did I feel good. Boy, was I hungry!

Thanks for your comments. Appreciate it. Makes be

clarify my thoughts enough to tell you what I'm thinking.

Ed S.

P.S. I am benefiting from cron even though not perfectly.

My illnesses such as cold's have virtually disappeared (again, now

that I'm keeping to my calorie level)...I look younger than my contemporaries.

They ask me how, I tell them, and they don't like the answer

[Guest guest]

Hi ed,

Thanks for the post. I really like your idea of calories/inch or pounds. I think pounds would be the way to go here. I think it would be very, very interesting for people to calculate this and send it in.. I don't beleive its ever been and that's surprising considering all the imaginative people on these cr lists. For me the cal/lb expenditure is about 15.

Regards, Mike Colella

----- Original Message -----

From: sully@...

Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 12:20 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] fluctuations

Hi , thanks for the excellent post. Very encouraging to know that there may be other ob/obs out there. I do use data and gut feelings. I am more inclined toward data, since it gives my gut feeling a brain check. My gut can get pretty greedy. One datum I recently extrapolated from RLW's comment that for average people (he means men, about 144-150 pounds...at about 68 inches. I know, because he's about that size, and it used to be average when he and I were kids)...probably the caloric intake for optimal increased metabolic efficiency is around 1800 calories. If that 's true, and one divides 1800 by 68 inches, you arrive at a factor of 26.5 calories per inch. If that works, then a similar figure for a person of 74 inches might be 1960 calories per day, more or less. This figure would reflect the thought that rats in cages get a specific amount of food energy per day. And, as I recall from reading Weindruch and Walford's combined effort, the heaviest lab animals for a given caloric intake lived longer than the small animals. So, without departing from my basic position that being obese may be harmful even if one is croning, a one energy quantity fits all - not regardless of height but regardless of weight - may be accurate. After all, the heavier you are for a given caloric intake and evergy expenditure, the more efficient your metabolism must be. If I said that right. So, while I think I can get down to 150# eventually, If I don't but am maintaining roughly 1800 or 1900 calories a day, with cool body temperature, cold hands and a warm heart, I'll feel I'm on the program. To continue, I notice that the mice who are croned are also very active little characters, so non-exercised may be a mistaken understanding. The amount of scurrying they do (per video clips) seems easily equivalent to my 15 miles of walking per week. Hanging from the stick is a pretty good equivalent of weight lifting, too, I would say. (They hurry around and hang from stuff...lots of energy!). I find your comments on your lipids not surprising, since reducing dietary fat to 30% does nothing, but reducing it to less than 17% does a lot. Also, encouraging to me, since I have to drop the Lipitor, I can be hopeful (and really motivated) that my numbers, which have been excellent, will only take a temporary jump upward. Right now, I'm about 28% fat, which If I improve dramatically as dramatically as you as I slide on down to 17% fat, means I only have about 10% of my weight to go before the natural protection of cron creeps in. Or, about 20 pounds of fat, with no loss of muscle. Well, It's lunch time. Better go eat some Walford Salad. Let's see, dwidp says I need some carrot, marinara sauce, loose leaf lettuce, and a cup of pinto beans sometime today..and some source of calcium. I believe I can work that into a salad. Great to hear from you Ed S. michael colella wrote:

Hi Ed, It looks like you and i have a lot in common. I weighed 270 lbs at 16! issue of what the hell is ad lib. In the final analysis i think you are on the right track because you are looking at the data: your lipids, blood pressure, prognoses to illness, intrinsic gut feeling (hopefully you are, I think there is merit to this) and these parameters along with the fact that you are naturally fat by nature will hopefully lead you on a discreet course of action. But what is discreet, I suppose for you to eliminate those obesity factors. Let me tell you this because it is quite strange. I had absolutely no movement in my lipd numbers until i dropped the last 20 lbs.!!! I am serious even though it sounds unbelievable. To this day i find it hard to imagine. At the high 180's which i hovered at for years I needed maximum dose zocor and still had cholesterol in the high 200's. But that last 20 lbs. that I lost 3 years ago had a trapdoor effect and I was finally able to slash the zocor down to 20 mg. and the blood pressure and heart rate fell with it. So I guess your on the right track and at some point you'll hit the mark I'm sure. Good Luck! By the way Ed, you are right we are speculating in one sense, but I guess the truth of it is in the numbers and how you feel and that is an individual thing. Regards, Mike Colella

----- Original Message -----

From: sully@...

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:44 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Body Fat Increasing Fluxuation , no, it doesn't sound as if you're nit-picking. I've spent many hours attempting to research exactly that question. The problem is, we're both speculating. We know that cr'd ob ob mice/rats live long and health lives. For them, it is even better than the lean varieties, because they tend to avoid the early death syndromes connected with obesity. The problem is, none of us knows what brand of ob ob mouse he is. In my case, I have been heavy or dieting all of my life. I am a little more muscular (or so my Tanita and Doc say) than most. My kids run from about 250 pounds up through 400 pounds (down from 500 pounds)...and none of us is tall. I use the 25 bmi because it's the best guess out there. Walford remarks, I recall, that ob ob's can be just average weight, or a bmi of 22 (that's what the bmi experts say is average or healthful weight)...or they can even appear to be a little plump...which puts you right at a bmi of abut 25. Now...I am well below set point. I could give you the data to verify that, but just accept that I gain weight very easily indeed...have cold hands, a slightly depressed temperature, and weigh about 203 pounds at 5 feet 8 inches. And that's fibbing a little. Now...I am clearly calorie restricted..averaging about 1900 calories, and when my program is working for me (I've had some problems with my Statin drug and have now dropped it)...exercising to a net calorie consumption of about 1400 calories. I do lose weight at that level...but slowly. Yet my lbm is well over 150...most of the time. So...I have increased energy efficiency, lowered body temperature, and most of the other signs of an effective cron program. Yet, I also have the problems that accompany overweight (at bmi 31 I just squeek into the obesity column). I have blood pressure that is quite high, may have high cholesterol without the statin drug, and in fact was diagnosed with one of the fancy hyperlipidemia labels about 7 years ago. But, when my weight gets down to 183 (still not down to bmi 25) most of the extreme signs of a shortened life span begin to fade away. My bp is usually normal (in other words still too high, but in the 130's over 80's anyway), cholesterol was so low with the Lipitor that we cut the dosage. Every probability that reducing my weight still farther would wipe out all of these fatness associated undesirable biomarkers. Now, at exactly what weight would I really be there? or do I have to get to 10% bodyfat? I don't know. If I get there before I reach bmi 25, I'll sure as heck slow down...and maybe stop losing weight. The point is, there is not exact weight at which we're where we need to be. If you're an ob ob and you believe Walford, one will try for a bmi of 22 to 25. If one starts out leaner, one is probably going for 17 to 19...very slim indeed. My point is that I am a good example of a person who is clearly on a cron diet, with at least a 30 per cent reduction of calories below set point, who still has health challenges associated with obesity. There are others out there like me. But, most people are not. So, I suggest to others, like me, who are overfat, that they look at reducing that fat to the point where their bmi is at least down to 25. I don't really know what anybody's bmi. should be. Not even mine. I'm just guessing that I'll be healthier at 158 than 203. I weighed 158 for a couple of days, once. Boy did I feel good. Boy, was I hungry! Thanks for your comments. Appreciate it. Makes be clarify my thoughts enough to tell you what I'm thinking. Ed S. P.S. I am benefiting from cron even though not perfectly. My illnesses such as cold's have virtually disappeared (again, now that I'm keeping to my calorie level)...I look younger than my contemporaries. They ask me how, I tell them, and they don't like the answer