Re: Re: Body Fat Increasing Fluxuation

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " robertheinemann " <robertheinemann@...>

< >

Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:18 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Body Fat Increasing Fluxuation

>

> Thank you. Regarding the weight loss being a side effect. I had

> read some posts that had pertained to the leanness of ones body as an

> indicator of the effectiveness of your CR regiment. (Sorry I can't

> reference them). Also in Walford's text " Beyond the 120 Year Diet " ,

> the 2000 edition, he states in table 2.3 that weight is a Biomarker

> of success. Mr. Walford further states in Chapter 9, pg 227,

> that " ...on the CRON diet, your percentage body fat should be about

> half that of your initial set point. "

>

If you're eating fewer calories than your body wants, then you're on CR.

Your goal is to do this while taking in optimal nutrients. If you're not

losing weight even though you're restricting your calorie intake, then

you're lucky. That means you won't end up looking as gaunt as some CR

practitioners do. Everyone's body reacts differently. Personally, I'm eating

very very few calories, and barely losing any weight. I suppose that's a

good thing, long-term.

[Guest guest]

robertheinemann wrote:

> H.

My tanita has a variation of a heck of a lot more that the manufacturer's

indicate. I have "restarted" my program many times.

I have a net weight loss of 30 pounds, after regaining 20 pounds.

I have noticed that the Tanita is incredibly inaccurate as I get started

each time, showing a net loss of muscle mass with an increase of

fat even as I lose weight. The variation is much more than would

be possible in relation to the caloric deficit. I might add that

my program includes some weight lifting, and I am quite definitely

growing stronger as the Tanita says my muscle mass is diminishing.

While those who've said that calorie restriction with optimal nutrition

is everything, if your BMI is more than 25 and you are

not extraordinarily lean, then some weight reduction is in order.

Bodyweight is a biomarker for long term health for most people.

I'm willing to bet if you simply stay with your program, you caloric

deficit and exercise will result in a reduced bodyweight. Don't

get caught up in the Tanita on a regular basis. Use it every

month or so, at the same time of day, if possible.

Works pretty well that weight.

Ed S.

prompted me to post, is that I am still developing my CRON diet

and

that this BF% increase may be an indicator that my CRON diet has

a

flaw in it.

However, this may be moot. I recently discovered that the

Tanita 551

has a variation +/- 1 percent when used under consistent conditions.

So I just may be overly cautious regarding this.

Again, thanks for everyone's input. I do appreciate it.

[Guest guest]

Hi Again.

I note in re-reading my post that my focus was drifting a little.

I'm sending my edited answer, then one I meant to send in the first

place, below.

My tanita varies a heck of a lot more that the manufacturer's data indicate.

I have "restarted" my program many times. Originally, I lost 50 pounds.

After regaining 20 pounds, I have a net loss of 30 pounds.

My body does not seem to want to be any leaner, but I do, since

there are risk factors associated with my BMI, and I am expressing

them.... although everything is much improved over my original weight.

I have noticed that each time I "restart" my program, the

Tanita seems very inaccurate.

It does not seem to read the weight change well, and tends to

show a loss of lean body mass rather than fat. The loss in

lbm is in excess of the total amount of weight that I could could drop

given the net caloric deficit I'm running (about 800 kc per day under the

2200-2400 kc that keeps my weight steady.). My program does include

some weight training, and my strength normally improves along with

other fitness factors as I gird my loins to reduce my girth. Since

the Tanita actually is measuring the difference in electronic resistance

between muscle, bone, and fat, and that the resistance of muscle

is near that of salty water, it is possible that there is a downward

variation in fluid that "confuses" the system.

I must say, that using it consistently and staying with my program

always reaches the point of showing fat loss (less than I would like) and

the lean body mass usually returns to about what it was before the program

began in earnest. This usually takes a few weeks.

It is true that "calories are everything" and, in fact,

if you will stay with a caloric deficit that is more than 15% less than

your set point (please don't ask me how to determine that...but I will

say that if your weight doesn't drop in a month, you're certainly

not more than 15% below your set point). I say 15% or more

deficit because some metabolic work (by Leibel, I believe) has suggested

that the body will improve efficiency by about 15% when faced with caloric

deprivation....and your body may be a fast learner! It takes some

bodies quite a little while to make that adjustment.

Calorie deficit is everything...but! If your BMI is more than

25, you have a serious health challenge now. You may need to

become leaner...a good cron diet will definitely do that.

If, on the other hand, your BMI is less than 20...or

even 22 or 23 if you're large for your height and muscular...then you still

need to coax your body into that metabolic shift of increased efficiency...by

croning, of course... but! you may not need to lose much weight,

and may, indeed, not lose much. Since you have

a Tanita, you probably know that Walford suggests a bodyfat percentage

of about 10% as being pretty good.

He's not much for saying any particular person should weigh any special

amount, or eat a specific number of calories, except to say

if you're overweight...and not losing weight...eat less and keep the nutrition

up.

Sorry about the confusing first post. Couldn't understand it myself.

I was multi-tasking and my brain just doesn't do that well.

Just as an additional note, at 203 pounds, I have to keep

calories after exercise deduction at about 1300 to lose any weight at all.

That means if I don't work out, 1300 is all I can eat.

For a guy who use to eat 3600 calories routinely...it's been quite a change.

I am in no hurry, in fact, my "best year" while I

lost the 50 pounds was a loss of 23 pounds! Now,

I have to lose those 23 pounds all over again.

Ed S.

, he states in table 2.3 that weight is

a Biomarker

> of success. Mr. Walford further states in Chapter 9, pg

227,

> that "...on the CRON diet, your percentage body fat should be

about

> half that of your initial set point."

>

If you're eating fewer calories than your body wants, then you're

on CR.

Your goal is to do this while taking in optimal nutrients. If you're

not

losing weight even though you're restricting your calorie intake,

then

you're lucky. That means you won't end up looking as gaunt as some

CR

practitioners do. Everyone's body reacts differently. Personally,

I'm eating

very very few calories, and barely losing any weight. I suppose

that's a

good thing, long-term.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ed,

I think the Walford definitions that you have posted below are to the point and they clearly demonstrate what many people often miss, namely CR is totally RELATIVE!!. In light of this i would have to take issue with your statement regarding desirable fat levels and desirable BMI. I think it is clear based on research with rats, which we are extrapolating from that it is the relative restriction or weight loss if you will that is the critical factor and BMI and fat percentages are only relevant as they pertain to a given individual. for instance the ob ob mice are quite fat when fully restricted. They are larger than non- ob ob ad lib rats, but in spite of their relative obesity when fully cr'ed at 50% they trive and are very long lived and quite healthy although they maintain a high level of body fat. Thus a human who is naturally obese may indeed end up with a BMI above 25 and have fat percentages well above 10%, and still benefit from cr.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but this is such an important issue and continues to be an area of tremendous confusion.

Ed Wrote

Calorie deficit is everything...but! If your BMI is more than 25, you have a serious health challenge now. You may need to become leaner...a good cron diet will definitely do that. If, on the other hand, your BMI is less than 20...or even 22 or 23 if you're large for your height and muscular...then you still need to coax your body into that metabolic shift of increased efficiency...by croning, of course... but! you may not need to lose much weight, and may, indeed, not lose much. Since you have a Tanita, you probably know that Walford suggests a bodyfat percentage of about 10% as being pretty good.

He's not much for saying any particular person should weigh any special amount, or eat a specific number of calories, except to say if you're overweight...and not losing weight...eat less and keep the nutrition up. Sorry about the confusing first post. Couldn't understand it myself. I was multi-tasking and my brain just doesn't do that well. Just as an additional note, at 203 pounds, I have to keep calories after exercise deduction at about 1300 to lose any weight at all. That means if I don't work out, 1300 is all I can eat. For a guy who use to eat 3600 calories routinely...it's been quite a change. I am in no hurry, in fact, my "best year" while I lost the 50 pounds was a loss of 23 pounds! Now, I have to lose those 23 pounds all over again. Ed S. , he states in table 2.3 that weight is a Biomarker > of success. Mr. Walford further states in Chapter 9, pg 227, > that "...on the CRON diet, your percentage body fat should be about > half that of your initial set point." > If you're eating fewer calories than your body wants, then you're on CR. Your goal is to do this while taking in optimal nutrients. If you're not losing weight even though you're restricting your calorie intake, then you're lucky. That means you won't end up looking as gaunt as some CR practitioners do. Everyone's body reacts differently. Personally, I'm eating very very few calories, and barely losing any weight. I suppose that's a good thing, long-term.

[Guest guest]

,

no, it doesn't sound as if you're nit-picking. I've spent

many hours attempting to research exactly that question. The problem

is, we're both speculating. We know that cr'd ob ob mice/rats

live long and health lives. For them, it is even better than the

lean varieties, because they tend to avoid the early death syndromes

connected with obesity.

The problem is, none of us knows what brand of ob ob mouse he

is.

In my case, I have been heavy or dieting all of my life.

I am a little more muscular (or so my Tanita and Doc say) than most.

My kids run from about 250 pounds up through 400 pounds (down from 500

pounds)...and none of us is tall.

I use the 25 bmi because it's the best guess out there. Walford

remarks, I recall, that ob ob's can be just average weight, or a

bmi of 22 (that's what the bmi experts say is average or healthful weight)...or

they can even appear to be a little plump...which puts you right at

a bmi of abut 25. Now...I am well below set point.

I could give you the data to verify that, but just accept that I

gain weight very easily indeed...have cold hands, a slightly

depressed temperature, and weigh about 203 pounds at 5 feet 8 inches.

And that's fibbing a little. Now...I am clearly calorie restricted..averaging

about 1900 calories, and when my program is working for me

(I've had some problems with my Statin drug and have now dropped it)...exercising

to a net calorie consumption of about 1400 calories. I do lose weight

at that level...but slowly. Yet my lbm is well over 150...most

of the time. So...I have increased energy efficiency, lowered body

temperature, and most of the other signs of an effective cron program.

Yet, I also have the problems that accompany overweight (at

bmi 31 I just squeek into the obesity column). I have blood

pressure that is quite high, may have high cholesterol without the

statin drug, and in fact was diagnosed with one of the fancy hyperlipidemia

labels about 7 years ago.

But, when my weight gets down to 183 (still not down to bmi 25)

most of the extreme signs of a shortened life span begin to fade away.

My bp is usually normal (in other words still too high, but

in the 130's over 80's anyway), cholesterol was so low with the Lipitor

that we cut the dosage. Every probability that reducing my

weight still farther would wipe out all of these fatness associated

undesirable biomarkers.

Now, at exactly what weight would I really be there? or

do I have to get to 10% bodyfat?

I don't know. If I get there before I reach bmi 25,

I'll sure as heck slow down...and maybe stop losing weight.

The point is, there is not exact weight at which we're where

we need to be. If you're an ob ob and you believe Walford,

one will try for a bmi of 22 to 25. If one starts out leaner,

one is probably going for 17 to 19...very slim indeed.

My point is that I am a good example of a person who is clearly on a

cron diet, with at least a 30 per cent reduction of calories below

set point, who still has health challenges associated with obesity.

There are others out there like me. But, most people are not.

So, I suggest to others, like me, who are overfat,

that they look at reducing that fat to the point where their bmi is at

least down to 25. I don't really know what anybody's bmi.

should be. Not even mine. I'm just guessing that I'll be healthier

at 158 than 203. I weighed 158 for a couple of days, once.

Boy did I feel good. Boy, was I hungry!

Thanks for your comments. Appreciate it. Makes be

clarify my thoughts enough to tell you what I'm thinking.

Ed S.

P.S. I am benefiting from cron even though not perfectly.

My illnesses such as cold's have virtually disappeared (again, now

that I'm keeping to my calorie level)...I look younger than my contemporaries.

They ask me how, I tell them, and they don't like the answer.

michael colella wrote:

Hi

Ed,

. In light of this i would have to take issue with your statement

regarding desirable fat levels and desirable BMI. I think it is clear

based on research with rats, which we are extrapolating from that it is

the relative restriction or weight loss if you will that is the critical

factor and BMI and fat percentages are only relevant as they pertain to

a given individual. for instance the ob ob mice are quite fat when

fully restricted. They are larger than non- ob ob ad lib rats, but

in spite of their relative obesity when fully cr'ed at 50% they trive and

are very long lived and quite healthy although they maintain a high level

of body fat. Thus a human who is naturally obese may indeed end up with

a BMI above 25 and have fat percentages well above 10%, and still benefit

from cr.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but this is such an important

issue and continues to be an area of tremendous confusion.

It will continue to be an area of confusion. After all, we

are both only speculating. We have a few facts, but not enough

to say we really have the answer.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: sully@...

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:44 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Body Fat Increasing Fluxuation

, no, it doesn't sound as if you're nit-picking. I've spent many hours attempting to research exactly that question. The problem is, we're both speculating. We know that cr'd ob ob mice/rats live long and health lives. For them, it is even better than the lean varieties, because they tend to avoid the early death syndromes connected with obesity. The problem is, none of us knows what brand of ob ob mouse he is. In my case, I have been heavy or dieting all of my life. I am a little more muscular (or so my Tanita and Doc say) than most. My kids run from about 250 pounds up through 400 pounds (down from 500 pounds)...and none of us is tall. I use the 25 bmi because it's the best guess out there. Walford remarks, I recall, that ob ob's can be just average weight, or a bmi of 22 (that's what the bmi experts say is average or healthful weight)...or they can even appear to be a little plump...which puts you right at a bmi of abut 25. Now...I am well below set point. I could give you the data to verify that, but just accept that I gain weight very easily indeed...have cold hands, a slightly depressed temperature, and weigh about 203 pounds at 5 feet 8 inches. And that's fibbing a little. Now...I am clearly calorie restricted..averaging about 1900 calories, and when my program is working for me (I've had some problems with my Statin drug and have now dropped it)...exercising to a net calorie consumption of about 1400 calories. I do lose weight at that level...but slowly. Yet my lbm is well over 150...most of the time. So...I have increased energy efficiency, lowered body temperature, and most of the other signs of an effective cron program. Yet, I also have the problems that accompany overweight (at bmi 31 I just squeek into the obesity column). I have blood pressure that is quite high, may have high cholesterol without the statin drug, and in fact was diagnosed with one of the fancy hyperlipidemia labels about 7 years ago. But, when my weight gets down to 183 (still not down to bmi 25) most of the extreme signs of a shortened life span begin to fade away. My bp is usually normal (in other words still too high, but in the 130's over 80's anyway), cholesterol was so low with the Lipitor that we cut the dosage. Every probability that reducing my weight still farther would wipe out all of these fatness associated undesirable biomarkers. Now, at exactly what weight would I really be there? or do I have to get to 10% bodyfat? I don't know. If I get there before I reach bmi 25, I'll sure as heck slow down...and maybe stop losing weight. The point is, there is not exact weight at which we're where we need to be. If you're an ob ob and you believe Walford, one will try for a bmi of 22 to 25. If one starts out leaner, one is probably going for 17 to 19...very slim indeed. My point is that I am a good example of a person who is clearly on a cron diet, with at least a 30 per cent reduction of calories below set point, who still has health challenges associated with obesity. There are others out there like me. But, most people are not. So, I suggest to others, like me, who are overfat, that they look at reducing that fat to the point where their bmi is at least down to 25. I don't really know what anybody's bmi. should be. Not even mine. I'm just guessing that I'll be healthier at 158 than 203. I weighed 158 for a couple of days, once. Boy did I feel good. Boy, was I hungry! Thanks for your comments. Appreciate it. Makes be clarify my thoughts enough to tell you what I'm thinking. Ed S. P.S. I am benefiting from cron even though not perfectly. My illnesses such as cold's have virtually disappeared (again, now that I'm keeping to my calorie level)...I look younger than my contemporaries. They ask me how, I tell them, and they don't like the answer.

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Ed,

It looks like you and i have a lot in common. I weighed 270 lbs at 16! I too struggled with my weight until I had a lipid test in my early thirties and it revealed a cholesterol level over 400!. My father died of a stroke in his early forties and had heart disease and numerous heat attacks beginning in his thirties. Several of my uncles had similar fates. I knew that dramatic action had to be taken or i would probably suffer a similar fate. I am now 168 lbs. at 6 2" and 49 years old with no heart disease. However I still take 20 mg of zocor and my cholesterol is 200. Pervious to cr it was 270 with 80 mg of zocor. my blood pressure hovered around 160/90 and now it is 110/70 or thereabouts. Clearly cr has had tremendous positive effects. I am a teacher and constantly exposed to viruses etc and yet since cr have had minimal illness which was clearly not the case previous to cr. Clearly, without question at least in my case cr has been a tremendous promoter of health and for all i know i might be dead without it. That said I can tell you my body fat level is at 17% and BMI is at 22. I still feel it is relative based on the data. People in my maternal side, like you, are very prone to obesity. I was a fat kid and i have to believe I am a naturally obese person. Hell i was even a big chubby Baby. I have often thought that perhaps with a bmi of 22 and a body fat % of 17 that i could lose more weight but I hesitate to do so ( Il look quite gaunt and people make comments all the time that i am too thin) because of the data and believe that too much of a good thing could prove harmful.

I guess what you and I are wrestling with is the ever controversial and mystifying issue of what the hell is ad lib. I'm sure You know that rats in a cage are in a very different situation than we humans face. Constantly exposed and tempted as we are with all the wonderfully, gratifying concoctions of the modern techno era where food is manipulated for taste appeal in order to increase profits and is plentiful. Along with this we are constantly being bombarded by advertisements and cultural practices that continually taunt us into imbibing. So we are not like those poor rats in cages who get to eat all that awful rat chow they desire. I have posted on this numerously and proposed a form of human chow to ascertain our ad lib level. human chow would be nutritious but very bland. Only then do i think a person who is not sure of his ad lib level could even begin to ascertain it. Three years ago when i became aware of cr (my dieting previous to this was totally unrelated to cr) I Created a form of human chow with a mixture of bland vegetables, legumes, canola oil and chicken. I consumed around 3500 calories ad lib and slashed it by 1000 to my present level of 2500. It seems to have worked.

In the final analysis i think you are on the right track because you are looking at the data: your lipids, blood pressure, prognoses to illness, intrinsic gut feeling (hopefully you are, I think there is merit to this) and these parameters along with the fact that you are naturally fat by nature will hopefully lead you on a discreet course of action.

But what is discreet, I suppose for you to eliminate those obesity factors. Let me tell you this because it is quite strange. I had absolutely no movement in my lipd numbers until i dropped the last 20 lbs.!!! I am serious even though it sounds unbelievable. To this day i find it hard to imagine. At the high 180's which i hovered at for years I needed maximum dose zocor and still had cholesterol in the high 200's. But that last 20 lbs. that I lost 3 years ago had a trapdoor effect and I was finally able to slash the zocor down to 20 mg. and the blood pressure and heart rate fell with it. So I guess your on the right track and at some point you'll hit the mark I'm sure. Good Luck!

By the way Ed, you are right we are speculating in one sense, but I guess the truth of it is in the numbers and how you feel and that is an individual thing.

Regards,

Mike Colella

----- Original Message -----

From: sully@...

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:44 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Body Fat Increasing Fluxuation

, no, it doesn't sound as if you're nit-picking. I've spent many hours attempting to research exactly that question. The problem is, we're both speculating. We know that cr'd ob ob mice/rats live long and health lives. For them, it is even better than the lean varieties, because they tend to avoid the early death syndromes connected with obesity. The problem is, none of us knows what brand of ob ob mouse he is. In my case, I have been heavy or dieting all of my life. I am a little more muscular (or so my Tanita and Doc say) than most. My kids run from about 250 pounds up through 400 pounds (down from 500 pounds)...and none of us is tall. I use the 25 bmi because it's the best guess out there. Walford remarks, I recall, that ob ob's can be just average weight, or a bmi of 22 (that's what the bmi experts say is average or healthful weight)...or they can even appear to be a little plump...which puts you right at a bmi of abut 25. Now...I am well below set point. I could give you the data to verify that, but just accept that I gain weight very easily indeed...have cold hands, a slightly depressed temperature, and weigh about 203 pounds at 5 feet 8 inches. And that's fibbing a little. Now...I am clearly calorie restricted..averaging about 1900 calories, and when my program is working for me (I've had some problems with my Statin drug and have now dropped it)...exercising to a net calorie consumption of about 1400 calories. I do lose weight at that level...but slowly. Yet my lbm is well over 150...most of the time. So...I have increased energy efficiency, lowered body temperature, and most of the other signs of an effective cron program. Yet, I also have the problems that accompany overweight (at bmi 31 I just squeek into the obesity column). I have blood pressure that is quite high, may have high cholesterol without the statin drug, and in fact was diagnosed with one of the fancy hyperlipidemia labels about 7 years ago. But, when my weight gets down to 183 (still not down to bmi 25) most of the extreme signs of a shortened life span begin to fade away. My bp is usually normal (in other words still too high, but in the 130's over 80's anyway), cholesterol was so low with the Lipitor that we cut the dosage. Every probability that reducing my weight still farther would wipe out all of these fatness associated undesirable biomarkers. Now, at exactly what weight would I really be there? or do I have to get to 10% bodyfat? I don't know. If I get there before I reach bmi 25, I'll sure as heck slow down...and maybe stop losing weight. The point is, there is not exact weight at which we're where we need to be. If you're an ob ob and you believe Walford, one will try for a bmi of 22 to 25. If one starts out leaner, one is probably going for 17 to 19...very slim indeed. My point is that I am a good example of a person who is clearly on a cron diet, with at least a 30 per cent reduction of calories below set point, who still has health challenges associated with obesity. There are others out there like me. But, most people are not. So, I suggest to others, like me, who are overfat, that they look at reducing that fat to the point where their bmi is at least down to 25. I don't really know what anybody's bmi. should be. Not even mine. I'm just guessing that I'll be healthier at 158 than 203. I weighed 158 for a couple of days, once. Boy did I feel good. Boy, was I hungry! Thanks for your comments. Appreciate it. Makes be clarify my thoughts enough to tell you what I'm thinking. Ed S. P.S. I am benefiting from cron even though not perfectly. My illnesses such as cold's have virtually disappeared (again, now that I'm keeping to my calorie level)...I look younger than my contemporaries. They ask me how, I tell them, and they don't like the answer