Re: One week on NV - great progress but we are now in M...

March 1, 2010

Hi Dianne-

Yes- you did read about this earlier..... I remember reading about it also.

The same thing went on with my almost 3 year old Son.... He was using his

" usual words " and " word approximations " .... but he also was making a lot of

babbling type sounds in between..... (almost like his own form of talking

in sentences " . He also became very angry when we did not understand

him......He would stomp his feet, cry, etc..... He often ended up on the

floor

in a full blown melt down.

This all has stopped this week.... (week 2). He still is babbling in

between the words that we understand..... but he is also gesturing..... this

helps us to figure out what he is talking about. I also have been pretending

to understand him at times..... (I know that sounds awful)..... but it

helps ease his frustration.... He will be chattering away..... I may

understand 3 words..... but I have no idea what the " babble in between them

means " ..... so I say " Is that right " ? ...... he then smiles and says " UHHH "

(uhh is how he says yes)..... He seems to want to talk more now......and is

less frustrated. I usually can figure out what he is talking about, based

on the words that I do understand.

I feel like I am " tricking him " ......by pretending to understand him.......

yet, this has reduced the frustration, and he is trying to talk more. I do

not plan on doing this forever...... and I do repeat the correct way of

saying the words that I do understand that he says. I also think of

something that I learned while working as a RN on a floor that had many

patients

with Alzheimer's ........ the patients who were in the " Advanced Stages "

would often wander the halls at night looking for their babies..... They would

find a towel, and think it was a baby. We, at times would " go along " with

what they said..... which would calm them down to the point that they were

happy and peaceful again. I am using this memory as a way to justify my

guilt over pretending to understand him in these beginning stages of " more

talking attempts " .

Re Liam, you mentioned that he has better attention and more interest in

his surroundings...... I feel that BECAUSE of his greater interest..... he

may want to DO more SAY more, EXPRESS more..... and when he can't, he feels

more frustrated. Give him time..... I'll bet his temper tantrums will level

off.

My child was not even ABLE to sing...... and now he is singing " LA LA LA MO

MO OHL " (Elmo's world song). I am happy that Liam has made

progress...... and I DO understand your frustration with the temper tantrums....

Think of this as a " transition time " for Liam. Perhaps we could equate NV

to " An Exercise Workout " for someone who has not worked out in a long

time....... After the first few " workouts " ...... they would be sore and

complain a lot......even though they FELT better because they exercised....

Once

their body gets used to the exercise, they no longer are sore, so they

don't complain..... and they continue to feel better and better!

This might be a silly example...... but my point was to " give it

time " ...... the positives sound awesome..... I would be willing to bet that the

" negatives " will decrease in time!

Take care!

>

> Liam continues to amaze us with new words, longer sentences, more attention,

more interest in what's going on around him, and best of all, a big desire to

share his world with us! He's generally happy, singing a lot and wanting us to

sing with him - this really does seem to have flipped a switch for him. And he

seems aware of the changes, too. It seems that he's aware and proud that he's

doing new things.

>

> BUT . . . his anger and frustration levels - when he does get angry or

frustrated - are all of the sudden really intense! He threw a tantrum at

preschool today that was unlike anything he's ever done in the 2 1/2 yrs he's

been there. And yesterday was tantrum after tantrum after tantrum, all day

long. I believe that I read somewhere - can't find it here, so maybe on

someone's blog? - that someone else's kid went through a rough patch a few days

after starting NV? Or am I imagining that? Please give me hope that this is

just detox or something and will pass!

>

> Dianne

>

March 1, 2010

I feel so old you guys! While there are so many newbies on here that don't know

what is normal -I have to tell you these reports of temporary (about week long)

" hyper " or " defiant " behavior are pretty exciting for me to hear because I know

what it means from history. What we are seeing with the nutriiveda is what

we've seen with the ProEFA for a decade now. It's clear that whatever the fish

oil is doing to accelerate progress the nutriiveda is on the same neuro support

and/or repair (and with nutriiveda for sure I believe it's repair) pathway

-difference is that the nutriiveda appears to be working faster and even for a

larger percentage -which seems to be almost impossible as the proEFA works for

just about all. How is this possible??

But yes about going through terrible twos -finally!! You'll read my experience

with that below and while some see it as a bad thing -I never did. But just to

make it clear while not all children went through any 'negative' stages with

fish oils - not all go through this with the nutriiveda either. Does your child

developmentally need to go through this stage? You see that's the question.

And while this isn't coming up much (yet- Mel went through it) I'm going to

throw it out there that if your child never went through babbling, teething etc

-don't be shocked or horrified if they go through it once on the fish oils or

nutriiveda. Fortunately it appears when our kids go through these developmental

stages late they don't last long.

One difference I am seeing with the fish oils and nutriiveda is while with the

fish oils the surges didn't start until after the hyper or other perceived as

negative behavior passed -with the nutriiveda they are happening at the same

time. In both the cases of the fish oils as well as now the nutriiveda this

stage appears to only last around a week or so.

Over time the standard advice for the " bad " behaviour was to just wait it out.

You'll see that in the following archives.

If you really can't take it -you can lower or stop the dosage for a bit...but

really as we are already seeing with the reports coming in from the nutriiveda

-it's the same thing -you are only talking about a week.

(as you read the following archives just replace in your mind the word ProEFA

with nutriiveda and you would not be able to tell one from the other in

reports...and hey guys we are raising money for PUFA research -one day we'll be

able to explain why this stage is there -but the main thing is you can't " cure "

or " prevent " the terrible twos...and if your child never goes through them -they

missed an important developmental stage...up till fish oils or now nutriiveda

-celebrate ever NO!)

PS -survey will be launched soon- and I will soon I'm sure have some other

exciting news to share in the next few months -can't say anything else yet!!!

More info at http://www.pursuitofresearch.org we keep adding more to the site!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~start of archives

Re: Negative reaction to proefa

From: " frank sabel " <sawyera@...>

Date: Tue May 4, 2004 1:57 pm

Subject: Re: [ ] Poor reaction to Omega-3 EFA's?

Dave,

When I first started Nordic Naturals Pro-EFA (one soft gel per day)

for my

then two year old, his behavior became so bad I almost stopped as

well. I

was advised by other parents who'd " been there, done that " to hang

in there

and it would get better. For us, the first 3-4 weeks were awful but

by

weeks 6-8 his behavior settled back to what it was b/4 starting Pro-

EFA. I

have read on other boards that adding extra Magnesium helps with

increased

hyperactivity that sometimes accompanies the introduction of

essential fatty

acids. I never tried that b/c by the time I read that we were past

that

phase. I'm just telling you FWIW since adding Magnesium can't hurt.

There

is no know toxicity level, but too much can cause diarrhea.

Naturally you

would want to consult your son's doctor about all of this. I am not a

doctor, just a Mom.

Good luck! KIM

From: " Morin Family " <morinfamily4@...>

Date: Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:41 am

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: ProEFA/bad behavior

,

When we started our son on ProEFA and when we increased his dosage,

he went

through a time of worse behavior. I have heard time and time again of

children experiencing bad behavior prior to a surge, whether on

ProEFA or

not. We waited out the crumby behavior (which subsided) and the

results

afterward were miraculous! My advice is to give it more time as your

son's

body adjusts to the ProEFA.

I have to admit though, we are waiting until summer to make another

increase

because of potential bad behavior.

Just my two cents...

Tricia

Re: Hitting, EFAs, and adding extra Omega-3/Jane

" bad behavior prior to a developmental surge "

I so agree with you Tricia, and I again am so looking forward to

meeting you and your wonderful family when you vacation in Florida!

And I agree with you Jane too. This could just be frustrations of

not being able to communicate, or normal terrible twos behavior.

You guys are lucky your children are going through this stage at a

normal age in my opinion. We didn't know about EFAs when Tanner was

two. Tanner didn't go through terrible twos -after he regressed at

11 months old he didn't go through much of anything even though he

passed all developmental milestones according to his pediatricians

at the time. Yes he had many quirks from his sensory integration

dysfunction and would occasionally have a melt down, but we learned

many tricks on how to avoid them, and for the most part Tanner did

whatever we wanted him to do with no reaction. The best way to

describe it was that it was like he lost his personality. My son

Tanner was so lethargic and compliant when he was nonverbal prior to

EFAs. Maybe I'm weird but I never viewed that as

normal...or " good " The artist in me wanted self expression. For

two years Tanner had no life in his eyes -and I can show you videos

of what I meant. He was like a shell from one to two years old. He

was not autistic because he responded to one on one attempts to

communicate -he just couldn't talk, and would tire easily and didn't

seem to have any energy. The minute Tanner was offered nonverbal

ways to communicate he responded with enthusiasm and willingness -

but he was still lethargic.

I welcomed big time when Tanner went through terrible threes after

we started him on Efalex back in 1999 and he first started to become

Tanner again - every terrible (normal) moment that Tanner said " No! "

and demanded it had to be his way and not our way. We respected his

demands without spoiling him. We welcomed when he started to " run

around " in the restaurant or store (like his brother who he finally

could keep up with) while we also taught appropriate places to run

around instead.

Tanner for years now is known as the " sweetest kid " by the

teachers, other kids. He has a great sense of humor. He is the one

who goes out of his way to comfort anyone that is hurt. He has a

high receptive language ability and has no trouble understanding

more complex thoughts and feelings...even though he can't always

express them in a sophisticated way. Tanner takes ProEFA and ProEPA

every day and regresses when he is off for one day still. He takes

carn aware/carnosine on an on and off basis which we find to help

because he regresses when on or off too long. Tanner can not take

high fiber as it causes a dramatic regression in him for some

reason. Under the advice of his MD, Tanner drinks pear and papaya

nectar every day and also eats the Dole papaya jell bowls and canned

pears which keeps him regular after years of constipation. And only

uses the Milk of Magnesia once in awhile when he skips a

day. Tanner is just doing amazing in all areas -and yes I want to

share what worked for him because I believe in it...and not just for

Tanner and Dakota.

http://www.cherab.org/information/familiesrelate/letter.html

Suzanne Smolyar once said the worst side effect she can think of was

her 5 year old daughter being nonverbal -which she was until

she started EFAs, and is still doing great. And the good

news is that for those that don't agree -you can always stop the

essential oils,

or look to the gray area in the following archives:

" In rare cases where EFAs don't work -parents don't report any

changes on the oils or off - either good or bad. So bad news (or

what you view as bad news which I'll get into below) can actually be

the good news.

I'd talk it over with your child's MD and your spouse -but it's not

unusual for there to be a child that is a bit hyper right before the

surge. And yes -a word just " popping out " the other day after 4

weeks of starting is a week longer than the one day to 3 weeks -but

not that far off. If it is the EFAs kicking in -you will keep seeing

more and more.

Here is a question for you:

Your daughter before -was she " laid back " ? What we view as a " good

child " is at times a child who is not expressing normal

developmental attitudes of expressing independence. The " no " stage.

As speech increases -this stage comes in more -and most times way

after the age of two. It could happen at three -four or even older -

and it's when this stage happens that other good things kick in too -

like the child becoming more independent of you. So again -this may

not be the bad sign you think it is. You want your child to go

through normal stages of development -even if they are not

all " nice " Most don't like it -but accept it, and just remember -

this too shall pass.

Keep in mind the following is from a parent of a " normal " child -and

she doesn't mention whether or not she just started fish oil but I

suspect not.

" My 19-month-old son has always been a good boy and has done

whatever I asked him to do. Recently he started refusing to do

anything I ask of him. He has started crying and hitting me even

when I ask him to do simple things. Where have I gone wrong? What

should I be doing differently? Will he always be like this?

Redwood City, California

" The hallmark of this stage is oppositional behavior. Our wonderful

children instinctively want to do exactly the opposite of what we

want. We have nice, reasonable expectations and they say, " NO! " or

they simply dissolve into tears. Suppose you have some place to get

to in a hurry. Your son has been in a great mood all day. . . until

you say, " I need you to get into the car right now. " He will, of

course, want to do anything except get into the car.

As if this weren't enough, children in this phase of development

have a great deal of difficulty making the choices they so

desperately want to make. You ask your child what he would like for

dinner, and he says macaroni. You lovingly prepare it for him, and

then as soon as it's made he says, " I don't want that! " It is

perfectly normal for him to reverse a decision as soon as he has

made it, because at this stage, he even disagrees with himself. "

http://www.drgreene.com/21_556.html

Your options are the same I gave before -but here is a summary.

Again talk to your husband, your daughter's MD, and the teacher too:

Stop the oils

Keep a journal of what happens to see if behaviors you see as good

or bad stop

Wait a few weeks/months

Start the oils this time, perhaps with just a 1/2 capsule or a few

drops

See if good or bad behaviors come back

Slowly increase

or

Change the formula

or

Don't stop just decrease dosage

If it was up to me -I'd say hang in there. There are tons of

archives on this. "

And due to the fact that I was raised in a " non hitting " family

where we were rewarded for positive behavior and disciplined with

time outs and privileges taken away instead, and that's how we have

raised Dakota and Tanner. I do not accept any type of violence -

including hitting as a means of communication or punishment (and

some use it as a punishment for hitting!) We live in a world that

is far too violent already in my opinion but we can all help to

change our own little piece of it to try to make it a better place,

a more loving place, by teaching our children how to learn to work

out problems and differences without attacking. Here is another

archive on this:

" In response to the rest...I have another viewpoint you may not have

seen. I agree that our children require other nonverbal ways of

communicating at times -however I stand alone on this I guess in

that I never allowed or tolerated hitting as a form of communication

from my boys or anyone else. By you taking your child out to

Mcs while he is supposed to have a " time out " from the school -

is a reward from you for inappropriate behavior -in which he'll

view his actions as " mom approved " .

With our children more than others -we need to not only provide

nonverbal ways to communicate -but to stress the importance of

social skills. You don't want to be your son's only friend. Being

viewed as a bully will not bring friends -and small children won't

understand that your son hits because he's not able to say " be

quiet " Putting your pointer finger to your lips is a polite

nonverbal worldwide understood way to say " be quiet " -just like a

smile is the same for acceptance -for example.

One of the moms who posted here how she was not liked because she

would yell at parents who scolded her son for hitting had a play

date with my two boys. During that (only) playdate -her apraxic son

punched both of my boys (including my apraxic son) more than once.

I didn't scold her son -to be honest I was shocked at her attitude

that this was just his way of communicating and asking my boys to

play. That was our only playdate -we just happened to always

be " busy " after that. "

=====

March 2, 2010

Thanks so much, ! It really helps to hear that others are experiencing the

same thing. So far, everyone who has responded has the same theory about the

reason this is happening, and it makes a lot of sense. It has occured to me

that some of his behavior is not unlike a younger neurotypical child just

beginning to talk, and if NV has somehow flipped a switch in his brain that is

now allowing him to start developing in these areas following typical

developmental stages, then maybe we're experiencing a brief bout of " tantruming

threes " ? At any rate, we're gonna hang in there!

Had to smile, btw, at your confession that you sometimes pretend to understand

your son's speech. I'm sure you're completely capable of striking the right

balance between encouragement and frustration! (and I'm guilty of this, too,

with my NT three yr old! at least it keeps her practicing her talking!)

Thanks for sharing.

Dianne

> >

> > Liam continues to amaze us with new words, longer sentences, more attention,

> more interest in what's going on around him, and best of all, a big desire to

> share his world with us! He's generally happy, singing a lot and wanting us to

> sing with him - this really does seem to have flipped a switch for him. And he

> seems aware of the changes, too. It seems that he's aware and proud that he's

> doing new things.

> >

> > BUT . . . his anger and frustration levels - when he does get angry or

> frustrated - are all of the sudden really intense! He threw a tantrum at

> preschool today that was unlike anything he's ever done in the 2 1/2 yrs he's

> been there. And yesterday was tantrum after tantrum after tantrum, all day

> long. I believe that I read somewhere - can't find it here, so maybe on

> someone's blog? - that someone else's kid went through a rough patch a few

days

> after starting NV? Or am I imagining that? Please give me hope that this is

> just detox or something and will pass!

> >

> > Dianne

> >

>

March 3, 2010

I have a friend with a typically developing three year old. A few weeks ago she

seemed to lose some words and her mom asked me about the fish oil formulation

that helped my son. She put her daughter on a half dose. Her language became

clearer and she started remembering words again, but she is going through the

same thing. She's been so busy, active, getting in trouble b/c she's getting

into things she never did before, pushing her boundaries. I didn't think she

would go through this b/c her daughter is typical, but maybe there is more than

just catching up?

Maybe the synapses in the brain fires more rapidly and it takes a week or two

for the parent and child to re-adjust to his/her new level of focus and

understanding. To learn new boundaries, so to speak.

Liralen

>

> I feel so old you guys! While there are so many newbies on here that don't

know what is normal -I have to tell you these reports of temporary (about week

long) " hyper " or " defiant " behavior are pretty exciting for me to hear because I

know what it means from history. What we are seeing with the nutriiveda is what

we've seen with the ProEFA for a decade now. It's clear that whatever the fish

oil is doing to accelerate progress the nutriiveda is on the same neuro support

and/or repair (and with nutriiveda for sure I believe it's repair) pathway

-difference is that the nutriiveda appears to be working faster and even for a

larger percentage -which seems to be almost impossible as the proEFA works for

just about all. How is this possible??

>

> B

May 31, 2010

I know this is a relatively old thread from March but I was about to ask about

this and thought it would be best to do an archive search. This makes me feel a

lot better. My three year old started Fish Oils almost two weeks ago and

starteved NV 12 days ago and for the last three or four days he has been having

HORRIBLE tantrums. He has never had anything like this. I have noticed though

that he is trying more words and when we ask him things he does it (like touch

your nose) and he didn't before. I will hang in there. Is anyone else going

through this now?