Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

Research has shown (in rats) that the more restricted the calories

the greater the life extention. You can keep your muscles and still

be a CRONie. Some members are very extreme in their CR others are

moderate. If you do not want to sacrifice your muscles, then you

have to take in enough nutrition/calories to keep them. In that

regard, if there isn't much calorie restriction, your life extention

will more than likely come from living disease free by eating

nutritionally dense foods (that's the Optimal Nutrition part).

I wonder though, how did you compute your body fat. You height and

weight computes a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 28 which is obese unless

you are very muscular. See Pg 99 in Walford for BMI chart. Walford

also recommends that men not drop below 10% body fat, though some

members are down below 4% (too dangerous in my opinion).

Bob

> From what I've seen, although natural bodybuilders are interested

in

> health and do restrict calories when trying to 'get cut' for

whatever

> reason, the goal is to maximize metabolism and body temperature.

Some

> even attempt to burn calories just for heat, not for work.

>

> Obviously this is not what I want to do, but do I need to reduce

my

> muscle mass to gain the benefits of CR?

>

> I'm 5'8 " and weight 185 with 12% bodyfat. My goal is to get to 170

> pounds which would put me at around 6% bodyfat. My fat percent

seems

> in line with Dr Walford's suggestions, but would that be too much

> muscle to gain the life extension benefits?

>

> Thanks for any help,

> Matt Comard

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Thanks for the replies and all the good information. I'll go back and

read Walford's book again.

Yes, I'm obese according to BMI. So is the average NBA basketball

player. I've been athletic all my adult life. I have the build of an

amateur bodybuilder although my fat has gone up recently due to lack

of exercise after a ski injury. If I drop from 180+ to 170 without

losing muscle mass I'll be very lean. But my BMI will still be high.

Here's a specific question for you if you don't mind: The vast

majority of nutrition & fitness literature these days recommends

eating 5 to 6 small meals per day. This reportedly stabilizes blood

sugar and helps with hunger and fat burning. However, another reason

is to take advantage of the 'thermic effect of digestion'. In other

words, digestion increases body temperature, which burns calories,

but is definitely not a goal of CRON as far as I can tell.

How many meals do you eat per day, and what's your take on the above?

Thanks again for your help Bob,

Matt

p.s. I think my metabolism is pretty efficient. My body temp is

usually below 97 and I can maintain a muscular 170 lbs with 1600-1800

cals per day. I also gain fat pretty quickly when I'm on vacation and

unable or unwilling to restrict consistently.

> > From what I've seen, although natural bodybuilders are interested

> in

> > health and do restrict calories when trying to 'get cut' for

> whatever

> > reason, the goal is to maximize metabolism and body temperature.

> Some

> > even attempt to burn calories just for heat, not for work.

> >

> > Obviously this is not what I want to do, but do I need to reduce

> my

> > muscle mass to gain the benefits of CR?

> >

> > I'm 5'8 " and weight 185 with 12% bodyfat. My goal is to get to

170

> > pounds which would put me at around 6% bodyfat. My fat percent

> seems

> > in line with Dr Walford's suggestions, but would that be too much

> > muscle to gain the life extension benefits?

> >

> > Thanks for any help,

> > Matt Comard

[Guest guest]

A BMI of 28 is generally considered overweight but to be obese you'd need to be >=30. For successful weight trainers it's possible to have a BMI of 28 without excessive body fat....

JR

-----Original Message-----From: papilio28570 [mailto:papilio28570@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:19 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs BodybuildingHi Matt,Research has shown (in rats) that the more restricted the calories the greater the life extention. You can keep your muscles and still be a CRONie. Some members are very extreme in their CR others are moderate. If you do not want to sacrifice your muscles, then you have to take in enough nutrition/calories to keep them. In that regard, if there isn't much calorie restriction, your life extention will more than likely come from living disease free by eating nutritionally dense foods (that's the Optimal Nutrition part).I wonder though, how did you compute your body fat. You height and weight computes a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 28 which is obese unless you are very muscular. See Pg 99 in Walford for BMI chart. Walford also recommends that men not drop below 10% body fat, though some members are down below 4% (too dangerous in my opinion).Bob> From what I've seen, although natural bodybuilders are interested in > health and do restrict calories when trying to 'get cut' for whatever > reason, the goal is to maximize metabolism and body temperature. Some > even attempt to burn calories just for heat, not for work.> > Obviously this is not what I want to do, but do I need to reduce my > muscle mass to gain the benefits of CR?> > I'm 5'8" and weight 185 with 12% bodyfat. My goal is to get to 170 > pounds which would put me at around 6% bodyfat. My fat percent seems > in line with Dr Walford's suggestions, but would that be too much > muscle to gain the life extension benefits?> > Thanks for any help,> Matt Comard

[Guest guest]

According to Mirriam Webster's on-line dictionary, obese is defined as

" excessively fat " . Using this definition it could easily be possible to see an

individual with a bmi greater than 30 who is no where near obese.

" john roberts " <johnhrob@...> on 05/01/2002 10:19:31 AM

Please respond to

cc: (bcc: Loveland/south/llp)

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding

A BMI of 28 is generally considered overweight but to be obese you'd need to

be >=30. For successful weight trainers it's possible to have a BMI of 28

without excessive body fat....

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: papilio28570 [mailto:papilio28570@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:19 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding

Hi Matt,

Research has shown (in rats) that the more restricted the calories

the greater the life extention. You can keep your muscles and still

be a CRONie. Some members are very extreme in their CR others are

moderate. If you do not want to sacrifice your muscles, then you

have to take in enough nutrition/calories to keep them. In that

regard, if there isn't much calorie restriction, your life extention

will more than likely come from living disease free by eating

nutritionally dense foods (that's the Optimal Nutrition part).

I wonder though, how did you compute your body fat. You height and

weight computes a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 28 which is obese unless

you are very muscular. See Pg 99 in Walford for BMI chart. Walford

also recommends that men not drop below 10% body fat, though some

members are down below 4% (too dangerous in my opinion).

Bob

> From what I've seen, although natural bodybuilders are interested

in

> health and do restrict calories when trying to 'get cut' for

whatever

> reason, the goal is to maximize metabolism and body temperature.

Some

> even attempt to burn calories just for heat, not for work.

>

> Obviously this is not what I want to do, but do I need to reduce

my

> muscle mass to gain the benefits of CR?

>

> I'm 5'8 " and weight 185 with 12% bodyfat. My goal is to get to 170

> pounds which would put me at around 6% bodyfat. My fat percent

seems

> in line with Dr Walford's suggestions, but would that be too much

> muscle to gain the life extension benefits?

>

> Thanks for any help,

> Matt Comard

[Guest guest]

clip____ "The meeting agreed on an international standard for measuring overweight and obesity, the Body Mass Index (BMI), defined as weight (in kg) divided by the square of one's height (in m): kg/m2. For assessing obesity in adult populations, the BMI categories are:

BMI 25kg/m2 for overweight (Pre-obese: BMI 25-29.9 kg/m2)

BMI 30kg/m2 for obesity:

- Class I obese: BMI 30-34.9kg/m2

- Class II obese: BMI 35-39.9kg/m2

- Class III obese: BMI 40kg/m2."

From WHO http://www.who.int/archives/inf-pr-1997/en/pr97-46.html

I am inclined to agree that percent body fat is more important than BMI per se but there does appear to be some consensus regarding what BMI is called Obese. It may be appropriate to follow those conventions when using that context (BMI).

JR

-----Original Message-----From: _Loveland@... [mailto:_Loveland@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:35 AM Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs BodybuildingAccording to Mirriam Webster's on-line dictionary, obese is defined as"excessively fat". Using this definition it could easily be possible to see anindividual with a bmi greater than 30 who is no where near obese."john roberts" <johnhrob@...> on 05/01/2002 10:19:31 AMPlease respond to To: cc: (bcc: Loveland/south/llp)Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs BodybuildingA BMI of 28 is generally considered overweight but to be obese you'd need tobe >=30. For successful weight trainers it's possible to have a BMI of 28without excessive body fat....JR -----Original Message----- From: papilio28570 [mailto:papilio28570@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:19 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding Hi Matt, Research has shown (in rats) that the more restricted the calories the greater the life extention. You can keep your muscles and still be a CRONie. Some members are very extreme in their CR others are moderate. If you do not want to sacrifice your muscles, then you have to take in enough nutrition/calories to keep them. In that regard, if there isn't much calorie restriction, your life extention will more than likely come from living disease free by eating nutritionally dense foods (that's the Optimal Nutrition part). I wonder though, how did you compute your body fat. You height and weight computes a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 28 which is obese unless you are very muscular. See Pg 99 in Walford for BMI chart. Walford also recommends that men not drop below 10% body fat, though some members are down below 4% (too dangerous in my opinion). Bob > From what I've seen, although natural bodybuilders are interested in > health and do restrict calories when trying to 'get cut' for whatever > reason, the goal is to maximize metabolism and body temperature. Some > even attempt to burn calories just for heat, not for work. > > Obviously this is not what I want to do, but do I need to reduce my > muscle mass to gain the benefits of CR? > > I'm 5'8" and weight 185 with 12% bodyfat. My goal is to get to 170 > pounds which would put me at around 6% bodyfat. My fat percent seems > in line with Dr Walford's suggestions, but would that be too much > muscle to gain the life extension benefits? > > Thanks for any help, > Matt Comard

[Guest guest]

I have trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of Arnold Shwarzenegger being

labeled " obese " . It just don't fit! No matter what context you look at it in.

I don't think he's in any danger of developing type 2 diabetes (I'll concede

that he may be at risk for other ailments associated with obesity).

" john roberts " <johnhrob@...> on 05/01/2002 01:00:06 PM

Please respond to

cc: (bcc: Loveland/south/llp)

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding

clip____ " The meeting agreed on an international standard for measuring

overweight and obesity, the Body Mass Index (BMI), defined as weight (in kg)

divided by the square of one's height (in m): kg/m2. For assessing obesity

in adult populations, the BMI categories are:

a.. BMI 25kg/m2 for overweight (Pre-obese: BMI 25-29.9 kg/m2)

a.. BMI 30kg/m2 for obesity:

- Class I obese: BMI 30-34.9kg/m2

- Class II obese: BMI 35-39.9kg/m2

- Class III obese: BMI 40kg/m2. "

>From WHO http://www.who.int/archives/inf-pr-1997/en/pr97-46.html

I am inclined to agree that percent body fat is more important than BMI per

se but there does appear to be some consensus regarding what BMI is called

Obese. It may be appropriate to follow those conventions when using that

context (BMI).

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: _Loveland@... [mailto:_Loveland@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:35 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs

Bodybuilding

According to Mirriam Webster's on-line dictionary, obese is defined as

" excessively fat " . Using this definition it could easily be possible to

see an

individual with a bmi greater than 30 who is no where near obese.

" john roberts " <johnhrob@...> on 05/01/2002 10:19:31 AM

Please respond to

cc: (bcc: Loveland/south/llp)

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs

Bodybuilding

A BMI of 28 is generally considered overweight but to be obese you'd need

to

be >=30. For successful weight trainers it's possible to have a BMI of 28

without excessive body fat....

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: papilio28570 [mailto:papilio28570@...]

Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:19 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding

Hi Matt,

Research has shown (in rats) that the more restricted the calories

the greater the life extention. You can keep your muscles and still

be a CRONie. Some members are very extreme in their CR others are

moderate. If you do not want to sacrifice your muscles, then you

have to take in enough nutrition/calories to keep them. In that

regard, if there isn't much calorie restriction, your life extention

will more than likely come from living disease free by eating

nutritionally dense foods (that's the Optimal Nutrition part).

I wonder though, how did you compute your body fat. You height and

weight computes a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 28 which is obese unless

you are very muscular. See Pg 99 in Walford for BMI chart. Walford

also recommends that men not drop below 10% body fat, though some

members are down below 4% (too dangerous in my opinion).

Bob

> From what I've seen, although natural bodybuilders are interested

in

> health and do restrict calories when trying to 'get cut' for

whatever

> reason, the goal is to maximize metabolism and body temperature.

Some

> even attempt to burn calories just for heat, not for work.

>

> Obviously this is not what I want to do, but do I need to reduce

my

> muscle mass to gain the benefits of CR?

>

> I'm 5'8 " and weight 185 with 12% bodyfat. My goal is to get to 170

> pounds which would put me at around 6% bodyfat. My fat percent

seems

> in line with Dr Walford's suggestions, but would that be too much

> muscle to gain the life extension benefits?

>

> Thanks for any help,

> Matt Comard

[Guest guest]

I think that BMI was created as a way for those not engaged in body

building to be classified.

FYI - at 68 inches and 185 pounds one would be placed on a mandatory

weight control program in the US Army, and discharged if weight was not

reduced to below 179 pounds (assuming one is less than 40.) This is

absolute and has resulted in body builders being discharged under AR 600-9

Section 21(g) (unable to make satisfactory progress without a medical

justification.)

[1] AR 600-9 (ftp://160.149.109.31/cas3/references/r600_9.pdf) Table 1 -

Height and Weight Screening

[Guest guest]

Oh if only it was that easy back when I was drafted.... :-)

BMI without any consideration for body fat, is only part of the story, but it's easy to measure and widely used.

JR

-----Original Message-----From: bareynol@... [mailto:bareynol@...]Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: RE: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs BodybuildingI think that BMI was created as a way for those not engaged in bodybuilding to be classified.FYI - at 68 inches and 185 pounds one would be placed on a mandatoryweight control program in the US Army, and discharged if weight was notreduced to below 179 pounds (assuming one is less than 40.) This isabsolute and has resulted in body builders being discharged under AR 600-9Section 21(g) (unable to make satisfactory progress without a medicaljustification.)[1] AR 600-9 (ftp://160.149.109.31/cas3/references/r600_9.pdf) Table 1 -Height and Weight Screening

[Guest guest]

> Bob,

>

> Thanks for the replies and all the good information. I'll go back

and

> read Walford's book again.

>

> Yes, I'm obese according to BMI. So is the average NBA basketball

> player. I've been athletic all my adult life. I have the build of

an

> amateur bodybuilder although my fat has gone up recently due to

lack

> of exercise after a ski injury. If I drop from 180+ to 170 without

> losing muscle mass I'll be very lean. But my BMI will still be

high.

I used the term obese inappropriately in this regard. is

quite right, when referencing BMI I should adhere to the

standards/classifications established. Overweight is the proper

term regarding your BMI; however, after descibing yourself in more

detail, you are not overweight in the clinical sense....which is

what we are more concerened with in CRON.

>

> Here's a specific question for you if you don't mind: The vast

> majority of nutrition & fitness literature these days recommends

> eating 5 to 6 small meals per day. This reportedly stabilizes

blood

> sugar and helps with hunger and fat burning. However, another

reason

> is to take advantage of the 'thermic effect of digestion'. In

other

> words, digestion increases body temperature, which burns calories,

> but is definitely not a goal of CRON as far as I can tell.

In my opinion, whether you eat once a day or ten times a day is

really minutia in the big picture. What is important is how many

calories you eat (on average) in a 24 hour period. For some, eating

numerous smaller meals helps stave off the pangs of hunger, etc.

Concerns about stabilizing blood sugar I believe are more relevant

to a diabetic who is adapting to CRON. I believe the average

healthy person who is following a CRON regimine need not worry about

the occassional insulin spikes from a potato etc. Walford depicts a

pretty good Glycemic Index chart on pg 238. As he says, try to eat

more from the lower end of the chart and only accassionally from the

upper end.

The increase in body temperature from digestion is probably due to

the all the chemical reactions taking place in the digestive tract.

This will take place regardless of numbers of meals and is more

probably related to what macronutrient is being digested e.g.

veggies break down a lot quicker than proteins. Perhaps some of the

other (more knowledgeable) list members can provide better info on

this point. You are still only concerned with total calories, not

total meals.

>

> How many meals do you eat per day, and what's your take on the

above?

I eat breakfast at about 9AM and dinner at about 6PM. I rarely eat

at anyother time as I just don't get hungry and I get all my RDAs

and then some from what I eat....so there are no cravings. There

are times when you will binge eat as I recently ate 8 candy bars in

less than half an hour (high anxiety business discussion). But you

just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back with the

program. Walford stated, as you may remember, that it isn't what

you do day to day, but rather what you do over the weeks and months.

So, CR is a forgiving program, you are not punished by death if you

go out with the guys for pizza and beers a couple of times a year,

or have some birthday cake at your son's/grandson's party. Just

keep in mind that those calories do count in your program and you

may have to cut back additional calories for a few days......so that

your calories average out to a calorie restriction from what used to

be your ad lib days. What's the sense of living longer if you can't

enjoy yourself by joining in with friends and family

>

> Thanks again for your help Bob,

That is what this group is all about Matt. My pleasure.

> Matt

>

> p.s. I think my metabolism is pretty efficient. My body temp is

> usually below 97 and I can maintain a muscular 170 lbs with 1600-

1800

> cals per day. I also gain fat pretty quickly when I'm on vacation

and

> unable or unwilling to restrict consistently.

>

Sounds to me like you already are CRONing. Walford consumes about

1800 calories per day in his regimine. Your body temp is a good CR

marker in my book, plus your lean (12%) body fat.....tweak that down

a little more and you'll be right in there in my opinion. See how

low you can get your body temperature without loosing weight. It

may return to normal after a period of stabilization in your weight

range. When you are CRONing, your temp will drop one or two degrees

and won't return to normal unless you start to gain weight

again...and then it will be mostly fat unless you are strenuously

exercising to build muscle.

Bob

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " john roberts " <johnhrob@n...>

wrote:

> A BMI of 28 is generally considered overweight but to be obese

you'd need to

> be >=30. For successful weight trainers it's possible to have a

BMI of 28

> without excessive body fat....

>

> JR

>

Hi ,

You are absolutely correct. I was just too lazy to type overweight;

and quite frankly, I never really made a distinction in my mind

between overweight and obese. I just lumped them in together.

I read your next post responding to . I learned something

tonight. Thanks.

Bob

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I have trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of Arnold

Shwarzenegger being

> labeled " obese " . It just don't fit! No matter what context you

look at it in.

> I don't think he's in any danger of developing type 2 diabetes

(I'll concede

> that he may be at risk for other ailments associated with obesity).

>

>

Hi ,

Yeah, I wouldn't run around calling Arnie " Hog Body " ! Walford

clearly concedes this anomaly on pg 225. So body builders are in

fact overweight for what is considered the " norm " , but they are not

clinically overweight due to the absence of excessive body fat.

Agreed?

Bob

[Guest guest]

That's the point I was trying to make. I'm pretty sure the typical winners of

professional bodybuilding contests these days all have a bmi above 30. Going

back a few years to when I was a big fan of the sport I remember Lee Haney who

was around 6'2 " and weighed around 240 lb in competition shape. That's a

bmi=31with a bodyfat of (almost certainly) less than 10%. A guy like that may

be classified as overweight but not overfat and certainly not obese. I bet he

still had to pay extra for his life insurance though.

" papilio28570 " <papilio28570@...> on 05/02/2002 12:00:29 AM

Please respond to

cc: (bcc: Loveland/south/llp)

Subject: [ ] Re: Caloric Restriction vs Bodybuilding

>

>

> I have trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of Arnold

Shwarzenegger being

> labeled " obese " . It just don't fit! No matter what context you

look at it in.

> I don't think he's in any danger of developing type 2 diabetes

(I'll concede

> that he may be at risk for other ailments associated with obesity).

>

>

Hi ,

Yeah, I wouldn't run around calling Arnie " Hog Body " ! Walford

clearly concedes this anomaly on pg 225. So body builders are in

fact overweight for what is considered the " norm " , but they are not

clinically overweight due to the absence of excessive body fat.

Agreed?

Bob