MMR

[Guest guest]

It certainly has become stressful making decisions now about some things we

never even thought about in past decades! My oldest is 24 yrs old and I never

even thought about not getting her vaccinated - of course, she only received 10

vaccines, not 36, as is the schedule now. Either way you choose, it feels like

a crap shoot, doesn't it? I just hope that one day soon the pharm companies

will find a way to " green our vaccines " so we can adequately protect our

children without the question of injecting neuro-toxins into their bodies, and

then we can have the best of both worlds.

Dianne

> >

> > ok thats interesting - but are they all going to suffer things as serious as

autism and dyspraxia, seizures etc from mumps? or do they get over it pretty

quickly and are fine

> >

>

[Guest guest]

We have to talk about averages, because there are always exceptions (eg smokers

or alcoholics who live to 100)

I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation in

about 35% of autism cases

So you are weighing that vaccination risk against the risk and severity of mumps

From: cp_mistyrose@...

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 05:27:28 +0000

Subject: [ ] Re: MMR

That depends - I personally know kids that have not been vaccinated, but still

suffer from apraxia AND autism. I know of siblings where the first was autistic

after vaccination, and when the parents refused to vaccinate the second, he was

autistic also. (Heck - my sis-in-law personally has seen identical twins where

only one was autistic) And no, they don't get over that quickly, and " fine " is

relative.

So, why make them suffer from mumps on top of it? Or, to turn your question

around, are all the kids who are vaccinated going to suffer from autism and

dyspraxia? My son has apraxia, my daughter's delays are genetic. I have 2

different family members with neuro issues who have siblings who are fine. I

will never debate that vaccines could cause problems in SOME children. I'm just

pointing out that it's ridiculous to compare mumps to autism.

>

> ok thats interesting - but are they all going to suffer things as serious as

autism and dyspraxia, seizures etc from mumps? or do they get over it pretty

quickly and are fine

>

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[Guest guest]

I agree with quite a bit of what you say. The problem is it is very hard to

weigh the risks against the benefits when the pharmaceutical companies hide

negative side effect and I haven't seen, like you said, the results of some of

these diseases. There have not been any long term studies comparing non vax to

vax children, as far as I can tell. Also, being able to tell when is the best

time to vaccinate...I subscribe to the later and slower school of thought...it's

different for each child and so it's hard to gauge for me. I am trying very hard

to look at the risks vrs the benefits and see which one is stronger.

The Dr. appointment was horrible. She waved off my questions of NV, only

cautioning against too much protein as it can be hard on the liver. Pooh,

pooh'ed over my concerns about his weight, he's below 25% and his height went

from over 75% last year to under 25% this year. And she tried to divide my

husband and I in our choice to not vaccinate with certain vaccines and to delay

MMR. I just felt I didn't have enough information to give him that shot without

reservations. After we told her we were going to read more, she said she wanted

the studies that show why we decided against certain vax's and they may drop him

as a patient if we don't fully vax b/c of his risk in bringing disease to other

younger patients.

I cried the whole way home.

On the other hand, the protein powder seems to be helping my son formulate

longer words, butterfly for example and longer sentences. My friends say he is

almost to his age level verbally. I talked to my husband about giving NV a

trial run to see if it is more effective than the protein powder alone. It is a

bit more expensive, but he said we could give it a try!! So after next paycheck,

we are going to give it a trail run.

Liralen

>

> I still say it's up to each parent to make the decision -and while I agree

that vaccines add to some of what is going on with the rise in conditions like

autism with our kids -I don't believe vaccines are the only or even main blame

or we would be seeing equal numbers all over and not higher numbers for those of

us who are pregnant in more industrial areas. To me- clearly there are

environmental issues at play. In addition it's wise for each of us to make

educated decisions based on facts- take the time to know the facts - as most of

us don't know the side effects of some of the diseases we vaccinate against

since most here today are fortunate enough not to have grown up during epidemics

that caused paralysis, death- now virtually non existent...virtually -but

because more and more are opting out - the odds and risks of side effects of

vaccines have to be weighed against the odds and risks of NOT vaccinating.

>

> ...as I posted many times before there are quite a few parents that did not

vaccinate who have children with autism -and in the one case I use as an

example, a friend of my sister in law who has an older child with autism who

decided not to vaccinate the baby due to this after much research and discussion

-educated and loving couple - the younger child who wasn't vaccinated has autism

much more severe than his older brother who was vaccinated. Go figure.

>

>

> Some of the side effects of the mumps, orchitis, meningitis, deafness just to

name 3

> (signs of meningitis * headache * aversion to bright light *

possible vomiting * typically a stiff neck, leaving patients unable to touch

their chest with their chin and causing the head to bend slightly backwards.)

>

> They suspect that Helen Keller lost her ability to see and hear due to

meningitis when she was 18 months old.

>

> And as some pointed out the latest outbreak is now in NY and NJ (around 1,500

cases) are due to an 11 year old who visited the UK where there are apparently

even more parents that don't vaccinate and they are one of the other countries

with higher numbers of mumps (over 7 thousand cases).

>

> So yes to me, depending, mumps can be much worse than autism. Again depends

on how bad the autism is vs the long term side effects of the mumps- but last I

checked autism has no death rate associated with it. And about side effects I

just read that the chance of hearing loss is 3 times higher than what was

previously thought. Again you have to weigh your odds based on educated

decisions -not because someone says " yes vaccinate " or " no don't vaccinate " but

because you look at all the information and as a parent make an educated

decision.

>

> And I just want to add that my son Tanner regressed after his third hep shot

but back in 1999 there was no awareness -at least none I heard about. And also

back then there was still thimerosal in the vaccines. If I had to do it all

again -I would still get him vaccinated -but later.. spread out as much as

possible and make sure they were thimerosal free (don't even think that was an

option then) But that's my hindsight -not reality. Can't change that even

though nutriiveda sure seems to be doing just that.

>

> Best to all to make the best decisions for their child with the knowledge we

have today.

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: liralendoncov

>>The Dr. appointment was horrible. She waved off my questions of NV, only

cautioning against too much protein as it can be hard on the liver. Pooh,

pooh'ed over my concerns about his weight, he's below 25% and his height went

from over 75% last year to under 25% this year. And she tried to divide my

husband and I in our choice to not vaccinate with certain vaccines and to delay

MMR. I just felt I didn't have enough information to give him that shot without

reservations. After we told her we were going to read more, she said she wanted

the studies that show why we decided against certain vax's and they may drop him

as a patient if we don't fully vax b/c of his risk in bringing disease to other

younger patients.>>

I know you do not asked for an advice, but I couldn't help to say: I sooo would

be changing pediatrician. It's their business, they have a right to decide how

to provide service (they are told what to do for agencies that receive money

from vaccines manufacturers). You have a right to take your business somewhere

else. Consider an alternative vaccine schedule.

I just share with you a list of articles I've been reading. Hope they help you

to make a decision.

(My little girl is fully vacinated and has not autism, FYI. I'm in Argentina).

**********************************

The Severity of Autism Is Associated with Toxic Metal Body Burden and Red Blood

Cell Glutathione Levels

Journal of Toxicology

Volume 2009 (2009), Article ID 532640, 7 pages

doi:10.1155/2009/532640

Research Article

J. B. ,1 M. Baral,2 E. Geis,3 J. ,1 J. Ingram,3 A. Hensley,3 I.

Zappia,3 S. Newmark,4 E. Gehn,3 R. A. Rubin,5 K. ,3 J. Bradstreet,2,6

and J. M. El-Dahr7

Abstract

This study investigated the relationship of children's autism symptoms with

their toxic metal body burden and red blood cell (RBC) glutathione levels. In

children ages 3-8 years, the severity of autism was assessed using four tools:

ADOS, PDD-BI, ATEC, and SAS. Toxic metal body burden was assessed by measuring

urinary excretion of toxic metals, both before and after oral dimercaptosuccinic

acid (DMSA). Multiple positive correlations were found between the severity of

autism and the urinary excretion of toxic metals. Variations in the severity of

autism measurements could be explained, in part, by regression analyses of

urinary excretion of toxic metals before and after DMSA and the level of RBC

glutathione (adjusted R2 of 0.22-0.45, P<.005 in all cases). This study

demonstrates a significant positive association between the severity of autism

and the relative body burden of toxic metals.

(Full article: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jt/2009/532640.html )

Blood Levels of Mercury Are Related to Diagnosis of Autism: A Reanalysis of an

Important Data Set

Journal of Child Neurology, Vol. 22, No. 11, 1308-1311 (2007)

M. DeSoto, PhD, T. Hitlan, PhD, Department of Psychology,

University of Northern Iowa, Cedar Falls, Iowa

Excerpt: " We have reanalyzed the data set originally reported by Ip et al. in

2004 and have found that the original p value was in error and that a

significant relation does exist between the blood levels of mercury and

diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder. Moreover, the hair sample analysis

results offer some support for the idea that persons with autism may be less

efficient and more variable at eliminating mercury from the blood. "

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 21, Number 2, February 2006

Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery

s Hopkins Hospital

This article showed that 38% of Kennedy Krieger Institute autism patients

studied had one marker for impaired oxidative phosphorylation (mitochondrial

dysfunction), and 47% had a second marker.

Excerpt: " Children who have (mitochondrial-related) dysfunctional cellular

energy metabolism might be more prone to undergo autistic regression between 18

and 30 months of age if they also have infections or immunizations at the same

time. "

Oxidative Stress in Autism: Elevated Cerebellar 3-nitrotyrosine Levels

American Journal of Biochemistry and Biotechnology 4 (2): 73-84, 2008

M. Sajdel-Sulkowska, - Dept of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School

Shows a potential link between mercury and the autopsied brains of young people

with autism. A marker for oxidative stress was 68.9% higher in autistic brain

issue than controls (a statistically significant result), while mercury levels

were 68.2% higher.

Excerpt: The preliminary data suggest a need for more extensive studies of

oxidative stress, its relationship to the environmental factors and its possible

attenuation by antioxidants in autism. "

Large Brains in Autism: The Challenge of Pervasive Abnormality

The Neuroscientist, Volume 11, Number 5, 2005.

Martha Herbert, MD, PhD [Harvard University].

This study helps refute the notion that the brains of autistic children are

simply wired differently and notes, " neuroinflammation appears to be present in

autistic brain tissue from childhood through adulthood. " Dr. Herbert suggests

that chronic disease or an external environmental source (like heavy metals) may

be causing the inflammation.

Excerpt:

" Oxidative stress, brain inflammation, and microgliosis have been much

documented in association with toxic exposures including various heavy

metals...the awareness that the brain as well as medical conditions of children

with autism may be conditioned by chronic biomedical abnormalities such as

inflammation opens the possibility that meaningful biomedical interventions may

be possible well past the window of maximal neuroplasticity in early childhood

because the basis for assuming that all deficits can be attributed to fixed

early developmental alterations in neural architecture has now been undermined. "

Neuroglial Activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brain of Patients with Autism

ls of Neurology, Feb 2005.

L. Vargas, MD [s Hopkins University].

This study, performed independently and using a different methodology than Dr.

Herbert (see above) reached the same conclusion: the brains of autistic children

are suffering from inflammation. Excerpt:

" Because this neuroinflammatory process appears to be associated with an ongoing

and chronic mechanism of CNS dysfunction, potential therapeutic interventions

should focus on the control of its detrimental effects and thereby eventually

modify the clinical course of autism. "

Evidence of Toxicity, Oxidative Stress, and Neuronal Insult in Autism

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Nov-Dec 2006.

Janet Kern, Anne

" This article discusses the evidence for the case that some children with autism

may become autistic from neuronal cell death or brain damage sometime after

birth as result of insult; and addresses the hypotheses that toxicity and

oxidative stress may be a cause of neuronal insult in autism..the article

discusses what may be happening over the course of development and the multiple

factors that may interplay and make these children more vulnerable to toxicity,

oxidative stress, and neuronal insult. "

Oxidative Stress in Autism

Pathophysiology, 2006.

Abha Chauhan, Ved Chauhan

This study provides a helpful overview of the growing evidence supporting the

link between oxidative stress and autism. Excerpt:

1 " Upon completion of this article, participants should be able to: 1. Be aware

of laboratory and clinical evidence of greater oxidative stress in autism. 2.

Understand how gut, brain, nutritional, and toxic status in autism are

consistent with greater oxidative stress. 3. Describe how anti-oxidant nutrients

are used in the contemporary treatment of autism. "

Porphyrinuria in Childhood Autistic Disorder: Implications for Environmental

Toxicity

Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, 2006.

Nataf, Corinne Skorupka, Lorene Amet

This new study from France utilizes a new and sophisticated measurement for

environmental toxicity by assessing porphyrin levels in autistic children. It

provides clear and unequivocal evidence that children with autism spectrum

disorders are more toxic than their neurotypical peers. Excerpt:

" Coproporphyrin levels were elevated in children with autistic disorder relative

to control groups...the elevation was significant. These data implicate

environmental toxicity in childhood autistic disorder. "

Thimerosal Neurotoxicity is Associated with Glutathione Depletion: Protection

with Glutathione Precursors.

Neurotoxicology, Jan 2005.

S. Jill , PhD [university of Arkansas].

This recent study demonstrates that Thimerosal lowers or inhibits the body's

ability to produce Glutathione, an antioxidant and the body's primary

cellular-level defense against mercury. Excerpt:

1 " Thimerosal-induced cytotoxicity was associated with depletion of intracellular

Glutathione in both cell lines...The potential effect of Glutathione or

N-acetylcysteine against mercury toxicity warrants further research as possible

adjunct therapy to individuals still receiving Thimerosal-containing vaccines. "

Uncoupling of ATP-mediated Calcium Signaling and Dysregulated IL-6 Secretion in

Dendritic Cells by Nanomolar Thimerosal

Environmental Health Perspectives, July 2006.

R. Goth, Ruth A. Chu P. Gregg

This study demonstrates that very low-levels of Thimerosal can contribute to

immune system disregulation. Excerpt:

1 " Our findings that DCs primarily express the RyR1 channel complex and that this

complex is uncoupled by very low levels of THI with dysregulated IL-6 secretion

raise intriguing questions about a molecular basis for immune dyregulation and

the possible role of the RyR1 complex in genetic susceptibility of the immune

system to mercury. "

Aluminum adjuvant linked to gulf war illness induces motor neuron death in mice

Neuromolecular Medicine, 2007

Shaw, Ph.D. [Department of Ophthalmology and Program in

Neuroscience, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia,

Canada]

This study demonstrates the extreme toxicity of the aluminum adjuvant used as a

preservative in vaccines. Excerpt:

" testing showed motor deficits in the aluminum treatment group that expressed as

a progressive decrease in strength measured...Significant cognitive deficits in

water-maze learning were observed in the combined aluminum and squalene

group...Apoptotic neurons were identified in aluminum-injected animals that

showed significantly increased activated caspase-3 labeling in lumbar spinal

cord (255%) and primary motor cortex (192%) compared with the controls.

Aluminum-treated groups also showed significant motor neuron loss (35%) and

increased numbers of astrocytes (350%) in the lumbar spinal cord.

Activation of Methionine Synthase by Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 and Dopamine:

a Target for Neurodevelopmental Toxins and Thimerosal.

Molecular Psychiatry, July 2004.

C. Deth, PhD [Northeastern University].

This study demonstrates how Thimerosal inhibits methylation, a central driver of

cellular communication and development. Excerpt:

" The potent inhibition of this pathway [methylation] by ethanol, lead, mercury,

aluminum, and thimerosal suggests it may be an important target of

neurodevelopmental toxins. "

Environmental mercury release, special education rates, and autism disorder: an

ecological study of Texas.

Health & Place, 2006

F. Palmer, University of Texas Health Science Center

This study demonstrated the correlation between environmental mercury and autism

rates in Texas. Excerpt:

" On average, for each 1,000 lb of environmentally released mercury, there was a

43% increase in the rate of special education services and a 61% increase in the

rate of autism. The association between environmentally released mercury and

special education rates were fully mediated by increased autism rates. This

ecological study suggests the need for further research regarding the

association between environmentally released mercury and developmental disorders

such as autism. "

Autism Spectrum Disorders in Relation to Distribution of Hazardous Air

Pollutants in the SF Bay Area

Environmental Health Perspectives - Vol. 114 No. 9, September, 2006

Gayle Windham, Div. of Environmental and Occupational Disease Control,

California Department of Health Services

284 ASD children & 657 controls, born in 1994 in Bay Area, were assigned

exposure levels by birth tract for 19 chemicals. Risks for autism were elevated

by 50% in tracts with the highest chlorinated solvents and heavy metals. The

highest risk compounds were mercury, cadmium, nickel, trichloroethylene, and

vinyl chloride, and the risk from heavy metals was almost twice as high as

solvents.

Excerpt: " Our results suggest a potential association between autism and

estimated metal concentrations, and possibly solvents, in ambient air around the

birth residence. "

Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to

Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

Environmental Health Perspectives, Aug 2005.

Burbacher, PhD [university of Washington].

This study demonstrates clearly and unequivocally that ethyl mercury, the kind

of mercury found in vaccines, not only ends up in the brain, but leaves double

the amount of inorganic mercury as methyl mercury, the kind of mercury found in

fish. This work is groundbreaking because little is known about ethyl mercury,

and many health authorities have asserted that the mercury found in vaccines is

the " safe kind. " This study also delivers a strong rebuke of the Institute of

Medicine's recommendation in 2004 to no longer pursue the mercury-autism

connection. Excerpt:

" A recently published IOM review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the

earlier recommendation [of studying mercury and autism] as well as back away

from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal [of removing mercury from

vaccines]. This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited

knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a

compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of

newborns and infants. "

A Case Series of Children with Apparent Mercury Toxic Encephalopathies

Manifesting with Clinical Symptoms of Regressive Autistic Disorder

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, 2007

A. Geier, Mark R. Geier

This study reviewed the case histories and medical profiles of nine autistic

children and concluded that eight of the nine children were mercury toxic and

this toxicity manifested itself in a manner consistent with Autism Spectrum

Disorders. Excerpt:

" ...these previously normally developing children suffered mercury toxic

encephalopathies that manifested with clinical symptoms consistent with

regressive ASDs. Evidence for mercury intoxication should be considered in the

differential diagnosis as contributing to some regressive ASDs. "

Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder and blood mercury level: a case-control

study in Chinese children

Neuropediatrics, August 2006 - P.R. Kong [Department of Pediatrics and

Adolescent Medicine, The University of Hong Kong].

This study demonstrates that blood mercury levels are higher for children with

ADHD. Excerpt:

" There was significant difference in blood mercury levels between cases and

controls, which persists after adjustment for age, gender and parental

occupational status. The geometric mean blood mercury level was also

significantly higher in children with inattentive and combined subtypes of ADHD.

High blood mercury level was associated with ADHD. Whether the relationship is

causal requires further studies. "

The Changing Prevalence of Autism In California

Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, April 2003

Mark Blaxill, MBA

This study helps to refute the supposition made by some researchers that

autism's epidemic may only be due to " diagnostic substitution " . Excerpt:

" They have suggested that 'diagnostic substitution' accounts for an apparent

increase in the incidence of autism in California that is not real. This

hypothesized substitution is not supported by proper and detailed analyses of

the California data. "

[Guest guest]

No he didnt

He was in medical court for 2.5 years against dozens of lawyers on somethin like

29 counts

At the end they agreed with every one of his findings, except that he shouldnt

have done a lumber puncture without permission (although doctors do that all the

time)

So basically all his research was proved genuine, by default, otherwise they

would have ruled aginst him on the other 28 counts

From: mosense@...

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:44:21 +0000

Subject: [ ] Re: MMR

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

I am confused,  " I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are

believed as causation in about 35% of autism cases "

 

WHO said this?  You just " heard it " ...???

 

As the person who originally started this thread said- she was looking for info,

not to start a huge debate.  Everyone will do what they feel is best for their

particular situation, but as a parent, I dont find statements such as above very

helpful without the facts/names/studies to back it up. 

 

So please, especially for those posting alarming information, such as the above,

please provide ALL the information so each parent can decide for themseleves

instead of just being scared. 

 

From: B <peter_2_@...>

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: MMR

Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:08 PM

 

No he didnt

He was in medical court for 2.5 years against dozens of lawyers on somethin like

29 counts

At the end they agreed with every one of his findings, except that he shouldnt

have done a lumber puncture without permission (although doctors do that all the

time)

So basically all his research was proved genuine, by default, otherwise they

would have ruled aginst him on the other 28 counts

@groups. com

From: mosense (DOT) com

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:44:21 +0000

Subject: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories

http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/

[Guest guest]

It was at a 3 day Autism conference with some of the best biomedical and genetic

experts in the world attending including Thoughtful House in march 2009

From: danatwayne@...

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 13:17:26 -0800

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: MMR

I am confused, " I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed

as causation in about 35% of autism cases "

WHO said this? You just " heard it " ...???

As the person who originally started this thread said- she was looking for info,

not to start a huge debate. Everyone will do what they feel is best for their

particular situation, but as a parent, I dont find statements such as above very

helpful without the facts/names/studies to back it up.

So please, especially for those posting alarming information, such as the above,

please provide ALL the information so each parent can decide for themseleves

instead of just being scared.

From: B <peter_2_@...>

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: MMR

Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:08 PM

No he didnt

He was in medical court for 2.5 years against dozens of lawyers on somethin like

29 counts

At the end they agreed with every one of his findings, except that he shouldnt

have done a lumber puncture without permission (although doctors do that all the

time)

So basically all his research was proved genuine, by default, otherwise they

would have ruled aginst him on the other 28 counts

@groups. com

From: mosense (DOT) com

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:44:21 +0000

Subject: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories

http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/

[Guest guest]

http://www.generationrescue.org/wakefield_statement.html

I havent got any axe to grind. I have an autistic child and hence spend my life

researching and implementing her cure

Im in United Kingdom so going to bed now, but there's a link above thats as good

as any summary of the Thoughtful House/ DAN doctor side of things defedning

Wakefield

Ultimately people believe what they want to believe - but I believe DAN having

tried it and it is working

So if you dont believe I will not mind

Take care

xx

From: danatwayne@...

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 13:17:26 -0800

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: MMR

I am confused, " I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed

as causation in about 35% of autism cases "

WHO said this? You just " heard it " ...???

As the person who originally started this thread said- she was looking for info,

not to start a huge debate. Everyone will do what they feel is best for their

particular situation, but as a parent, I dont find statements such as above very

helpful without the facts/names/studies to back it up.

So please, especially for those posting alarming information, such as the above,

please provide ALL the information so each parent can decide for themseleves

instead of just being scared.

From: B <peter_2_@...>

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: MMR

Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:08 PM

No he didnt

He was in medical court for 2.5 years against dozens of lawyers on somethin like

29 counts

At the end they agreed with every one of his findings, except that he shouldnt

have done a lumber puncture without permission (although doctors do that all the

time)

So basically all his research was proved genuine, by default, otherwise they

would have ruled aginst him on the other 28 counts

@groups. com

From: mosense (DOT) com

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:44:21 +0000

Subject: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories

http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Well, here's there rub, as they say-- when it comes to the MMR shots.

Check into the long-term efficacy rates and see whether or not your son

REALLY is (or is not) protected from them.

Truly-- the efficacy rates aren't all that great, and in reality, he's not

*really* protected by the vaccines in the long run

Becky

In a message dated 3/5/2010 2:00:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

cp_mistyrose@... writes:

While I understand this has nothing to do with measles/ rubella, I would

rather take the chance that my son is protected in the long run, and

obviously that my future neice/ nephew doesn't suffer any issues in utero.

[Guest guest]

Can I just bring attention to the information that someone posted below

regarding the Mumps outbreak here in NY/NJ area??

Please pay attention to the highlighted areas and note what it says and see

if this gives those thinking about giving the child vaccines, much pause

to wonder..........

Becky

In a message dated 3/5/2010 4:02:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

mosense@... writes:

Mumps outbreak in NY, NJ tops 1,500 cases

February 11, 2010 1:07 PMATLANTA (AP) -- A mumps outbreak among Orthodox

Jews in New York and New Jersey has now surpassed 1,500 cases and shows no

sign of ending soon.

The outbreak began last summer at a boys camp in the Catskills. Nearly all

the cases are in the insular Orthodox Jewish community. Health officials

said most had a mumps vaccination, but the shots are not completely

effective.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday said the count

has now reached 1,521. Nineteen people have been hospitalized but no deaths

have been reported.

[Guest guest]

I just want to say that I agree that the vaccines are not the *ONLY* thing

to blame with autism, but I'd like to also offer the thought that the

MERCURY and metals ARE.

The " mercury-free " vaccines, are NOT mercury free, first of all, so I feel

people are being lulled into a false sense of security thinking that

there's so much less risk involved with using the newer vaccines. Take a look

at

the amount of thimerosol that is still in those things and know that those

amounts are still accounted for a toxic level that can damage a child--

especially a newborn.

Another thought to add to the table here, for what it's worth, is that

while there are many who have autism or ASDs may not have vaccinated, has

anyone thought about what those children, who already have issues WITHOUT those

toxins in their system, what they would be like WITH those toxins??

We chose to cease vaxxing with my 1st son who is turning 11 on monday.

It's too long of a story, but he WAS given a few vaccines, and he is also one

of those who we believe is damaged by them.

My Asa, 5 1/2, was NEVER vaccinated, and he has more issues and diagnoses

that pop up daily it seems. So clearly his issues were NOT caused by vaccine

damage.

BUT-- I will say that in my heart of hearts, I don't believe this child

would be alive today if he WAS vaccinated. With all his issues and things

he's been diagnosed with, the vaccines, which the older son reacted to and was

damaged by, I don't believe Asa would be here today, and believe they

would have either killed him or sent him so far into autism that we'd never see

him again. I truly believe that.

Interesting side note-- our Pediatricians are obviously pro-vaccine. They

have (literally) kicked out all patients in their practice who have chosen

not to vaccinate as their new policy. Oddly enough, when it came time to

decide on what to do about my family, 2 of the 3 senior partners said that

they would NOT be kicking out our family because we are like family to them.

Now, off the record, I know that they are pro-vaccine, but I also know that

those 2 Dr's see the struggles we have gone through, and I know that they

are relieved that we didn't vaccinate Asa. In one visit I turned to one of

them and said " Can you even imagine what he'd be like if we vaccinated? "

and I started crying at the very thought. He agreed with me-- go figure!!!

You see, for many kids out there, they may never see ill effects of

vaccines, but for an even larger, ever-growing number of kids, they ARE seeing

those effects, but not enough to warrant going against their Scientific

beliefs.

anyhoo-- my thoughts on the subject

Bek

In a message dated 3/6/2010 12:08:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

kiddietalk@... writes:

I still say it's up to each parent to make the decision -and while I agree

that vaccines add to some of what is going on with the rise in conditions

like autism with our kids -I don't believe vaccines are the only or even

main blame or we would be seeing equal numbers all over and not higher

numbers for those of us who are pregnant in more industrial areas. To me-

clearly

there are environmental issues at play

[Guest guest]

I completely agree.

I think most parents to an autistic child would prefer the odds of the

child having mumps and the *possible* small ill-effects of the mumps rather

than the lifelong effects of autism.

I could be wrong--

bek

In a message dated 3/6/2010 8:11:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

cp_mistyrose@... writes:

I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous to compare mumps to autism.

[Guest guest]

I've always thought that the later and the slower, the better. There was

one situation where I changed my mind and realized that it goes back to how

dangerous these things are for certain kids, more than a better time to give

them....

There was a 5 yr old girl who went in for her well-check and received the

MMR vax (booster). She went into anaphylactic shock and quite literally

died right there in the office. Her grandparents went to our church at the

time that this happened. Now-- just as a side note-- this same girl had the

MMR shot earlier and she never had any reaction to the previous one, and

this was the booster at age 5, so it had been some time since the last one

that was given.

But that one child still died-- and I bet those parents wish they could go

back in time and change things. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, and we

CAN'T go back and change things-- so the best thing is to educate people of

the dangers and to research FAMILY HISTORY (soooo soooo vital) and take eacn

vax and weight the pros with the cons and see what you come up with for

THAT PARTICULAR child.

Bek

In a message dated 3/6/2010 12:23:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

liralendoncov@... writes:

Also, being able to tell when is the best time to vaccinate...Also, being

able to tell when is the best time to vacci

[Guest guest]

a sidenote-- high protein should NOT be a problem for the liver if the

child stays well hydrated and drinks water as they should

Bek

In a message dated 3/6/2010 12:23:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

liralendoncov@... writes:

She waved off my questions of NV, only cautioning against too much protein

as it can be hard on the liver

[Guest guest]

Could you be more specific, I was trying to look this up to take to my

daughter's pediatrician, but I can not find it.

What was the name of the conference?  When was it?  Who are the specific

experts that said if your child has Autism, there is a 1 in 3 chance it is

solely bc you had them vaccinated?  Is it one expert or many?  Is it backed up

by any secondary (or more)studies?  Do you have a copy of that exact

study?  If so, can you please provide a link for us to review, I am sure many

would find it helpful in their research to make the best decision.   

 

Thank you for your help!

From: B <peter_2_hotmail (DOT) com>

Subject: RE: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

@groups. com

Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:08 PM

No he didnt

He was in medical court for 2.5 years against dozens of lawyers on somethin like

29 counts

At the end they agreed with every one of his findings, except that he shouldnt

have done a lumber puncture without permission (although doctors do that all the

time)

So basically all his research was proved genuine, by default, otherwise they

would have ruled aginst him on the other 28 counts

@groups. com

From: mosense (DOT) com

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:44:21 +0000

Subject: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories

http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Liralen-

in my honest and humble opinion, the very fact that she tried to " divide

and conquer " with you and your husband tells me that you need a new ped!

Don't hesitate-- RUN to find another one.

The second factor is that she bullied you into making the decision, and to

top if off with the proverbial cherry-- she threatened you if you did say

now.

Truly-- find a new Ped-- SOON

Bek

In a message dated 3/6/2010 12:23:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

liralendoncov@... writes:

And she tried to divide my husband and I in our choice to not vaccinate

with certain vaccines and to delay MMR. I just felt I didn't have enough

information to give him that shot without reservations. After we told her we

were going to read more, she said she wanted the studies that show why we

decided against certain vax's and they may drop him as a patient if we don't

fully vax b/c of his risk in bringing disease to other younger patients.

[Guest guest]

Another great resource on vaccine INFORMATION (not pro or con, but rather

information to do with as you see fit)

_http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Guide-Benefits-Children-Adults/dp/1556434235/

ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1267936268 & sr=8-1-spell_

(http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Guide-Benefits-Children-Adults/dp/1556434235/ref=\

sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s

=books & qid=1267936268 & sr=8-1-spell)

[Guest guest]

I never said I didnt believe anything... Please do not make this personal.

 

I am simply a concerned parent about to have another child and will have to make

all these decisions regarding immunizations again.  Thus, my asking for more

information!

 

From: B <peter_2_hotmail (DOT) com>

Subject: RE: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

@groups. com

Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 1:08 PM

No he didnt

He was in medical court for 2.5 years against dozens of lawyers on somethin like

29 counts

At the end they agreed with every one of his findings, except that he shouldnt

have done a lumber puncture without permission (although doctors do that all the

time)

So basically all his research was proved genuine, by default, otherwise they

would have ruled aginst him on the other 28 counts

@groups. com

From: mosense (DOT) com

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:44:21 +0000

Subject: [childrensapraxiane t] Re: MMR

Didnt that doctor recant all his statements about any relation between the two??

He was also fired from the institure where he worked!!

>

>

> I have heard it said a few times that vaccinations are believed as causation

in about 35% of autism cases

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories

http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 195013117/ direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Some reading material that could help to make an informed decision:

A User-Friendly Vaccination Schedule

(http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html) by W. , Jr., MD

--An Update on this Vaccination Schedule

(http://www.donaldmiller.com/an_update_on_this_vaccination_sc.htm)

His website is worth checking, IMHO (http://www.donaldmiller.com/ )

There, you have two books recomendations (I copy & paste):

" The two best books on this subject:

Saying No to Vaccines: A Resource Guide for All Ages

by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny (published June 16, 2008). This book refutes the 25 most

common arguments supporting vaccination and provides detailed information on

vaccine exemptions for schools, healthcare, and the military. It also has a

75-minute DVD that discusses, among other things, the HPV (human papilloma

virus) vaccine.

(http://www.amazon.com/Saying-Vaccines-Dr-Sherri-Tenpenny/dp/0979091047/ref=pd_b\

bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1217087358 & sr=8-1)

Vaccine Safety Manual for Concerned Families and Health Practitioners: Guide to

Immunization Risks and Protection

by Neil ( published April 10, 2008 ). It has more than 3,000 references,

along with a foreword by Blaylock, M.D. This is the most comprehensive

work to date on the risks and benefits of vaccines.

(http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Safety-Concerned-Families-Practitioners/dp/188121\

7353)

See also Dr. Tenpenny's 3-hour DVD: Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The

Choices

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007QQW5E/ref=ase_donaldmiller-20/103-7964755\

-2191811?s=dvd & v=glance & n=130 & tagActionCode=donaldmiller-20) "

Hope it helps.

M.

[Guest guest]

I found a lot of information in the archives here. Kate

[Guest guest]

Becky I found this about those that are vaccinated getting the mumps -below is

information on that from the State of NJ

RECENT MUMPS CASES IN NEW JERSEY

Is there currently a mumps outbreak in NJ?

Yes. In July 2009, the largest U.S. mumps outbreak since 2006 has occurred, with

cases reported in multiple locations, including NY and NJ. As of February 16,

2010, 246 cases have been reported in NJ. The outbreak has primarily remained

confined to a tradition-observant religious community and the majority of ill

persons have been vaccinated with a mumps-containing vaccine.

Is the mumps virus circulating in New Jersey and New York in 2010 different from

the usual mumps strain?

No, the same strain has caused past outbreaks in the United States and the

United Kingdom. The current MMR vaccine covers this strain.

Some people who have had both doses of the recommended MMR vaccine (to protect

against measles, mumps, and rubella disease) are still getting mumps.

Does that mean that the vaccine is not effective?

No, the mumps vaccine is effective. During outbreaks, we know that the people

who have not been vaccinated against mumps have a much greater chance of getting

mumps than those who are vaccinated. As with any vaccine, not everyone who is

vaccinated will develop immunity and be protected. For the mumps vaccine, 90% of

people will be protected after receiving the recommended 2 vaccines but about

10% of individuals will not develop immunity and remain susceptible. So we

expect that during an outbreak when many, many people are being exposed every

day, some people will get the mumps.

The following example will explain this further.

•

After 2 doses of the mumps vaccine, 90% of people will be protected, 10% will

not be protected.

•

This means out of every 100 people vaccinated, 90 will be protected. However,

the vaccine will not " take " in 10 people, and these people will remain

susceptible to the disease.

•

By comparison, the measles vaccine (also part of the MMR vaccine) is about 98%

effective and the annual influenza vaccine is about 70-85% effective.

Example 1:

In a community of 100 people, 100% have been vaccinated. Everyone is exposed to

mumps. What happens?

•

90 people (90%) in the community are protected by the vaccine and do not get

mumps.

•

10 people (10%) in the community become ill with mumps because the vaccine did

not " take " .

•

Of the 10 people who get mumps, all (100%) have been vaccinated.

Example 2:

In a community of 100, 98% have been vaccinated. That means 98 people are

vaccinated and 2 people are not. Everyone is exposed to mumps. What happens?

•

88 people (90% of the 98 who are vaccinated) in the community are protected by

the vaccine and do not get mumps.

•

10 people (10% of the 98 who are vaccinated) become ill with mumps because the

vaccine did not " take " .

•

2 people who have never been vaccinated get ill because they have no immunity to

the disease.

•

Of the 12 (10 vaccinated +2 unvaccinated) people who get mumps, 83% (10/12) were

vaccinated.

Thus a large percent of the people with mumps have been vaccinated. This is

expected in a highly vaccinated population when dealing with a vaccine that is

90% effective and a contagious disease like mumps. This does not mean that the

vaccine is not working; in fact the mumps vaccine is working as expected. Most

people who are vaccinated are not getting sick. You have to remember that during

outbreaks many, many people are exposed every day – 90% of them are not getting

sick because they have been protected by the vaccine.

http://www.state.nj.us/health/cd/documents/mumps/mumps_public_faq.pdf

=====

[Guest guest]

Liralen! <hugs> I just wanted to say that I hope you find another

pediatrician. Never - and I mean NEVER - should you ever allow a doctor to

treat you that way. It doesn't matter whether or not she agrees or doesn't

agree with your choices, you still deserve to be treated with respect.

Parenting is a very difficult job, involving so many critical decisions, and

we're all just doing the best we can. You should have a pediatrician who

applauds your efforts to do more than just nod your head and comply - you're

intelligent and trying to make informed, intelligent decisions for your family,

and that's always a good thing! And I say this coming from a position of having

disagreed with both of my son's doctors - his regular pediatrician (who tends

more toward mainstream thought) and his neurodev pediatrician (who is a DAN!

doctor and often wants to be waaaaay more aggressive than we are comfortable

with). Although they do not always agree with our choices, they are always

respectful and treat our experiences as a team effort, not a dictatorship. This

is the type of relationship you should be having. Settle for nothing less,

because there are a lot of doctors out there! Remember that they work for YOU,

not the other way around.

Hang in there - and congrats on making the NV decision!

Dianne

[Guest guest]

We did this for our son worked great, he only needed one of the three parts

of the shot, now they are saying they are not doing them separate

anymore...Hope they go back to the old way, My daughter is due for one when she

is

five and she isn't on the spectrum or autistic but she has a delicate

system, she will get her shots spaced out like my son does.

In a message dated 3/7/2010 10:51:42 A.M. Central Standard Time,

degarrettjones@... writes:

Thanks for posting this! Very interesting! I wondered when our DAN doctor

mentioned titer testing for our son at his next appt., indicating that if he

didn't show immunity (since he's had him MMR before, but not the 5 yr

booster) it would give us a better picture of his immune system as a whole. I

know I didn't show immunity to rubella and chicken pox when tested, even

though I had ALL of the childhood diseases as a child - chicken pox, rubella,

measles, and mumps. And now I wonder if the vaccines helped at all, and if

building immunity, either naturally (from getting the illness) or via

vaccine is genetic? So much we just don't know!

Dianne

>

> Becky I found this about those that are vaccinated getting the mumps

-below is information on that from the State of NJ

>

> RECENT MUMPS CASES IN NEW JERSEY

> Is there currently a mumps outbreak in NJ?

>

> Yes. In July 2009, the largest U.S. mumps outbreak since 2006 has

occurred, with cases reported in multiple locations, including NY and NJ. As of

February 16, 2010, 246 cases have been reported in NJ. The outbreak has

primarily remained confined to a tradition-observant religious community and

the majority of ill persons have been vaccinated with a mumps-containing

vaccine.

>

> Is the mumps virus circulating in New Jersey and New York in 2010

different from the usual mumps strain?

>

> No, the same strain has caused past outbreaks in the United States and

the United Kingdom. The current MMR vaccine covers this strain.

> Some people who have had both doses of the recommended MMR vaccine (to

protect against measles, mumps, and rubella disease) are still getting mumps.

>

> Does that mean that the vaccine is not effective?

> No, the mumps vaccine is effective. During outbreaks, we know that the

people who have not been vaccinated against mumps have a much greater chance

of getting mumps than those who are vaccinated. As with any vaccine, not

everyone who is vaccinated will develop immunity and be protected. For the

mumps vaccine, 90% of people will be protected after receiving the

recommended 2 vaccines but about 10% of individuals will not develop immunity

and

remain susceptible. So we expect that during an outbreak when many, many

people are being exposed every day, some people will get the mumps.

>

> The following example will explain this further.

>

> •

> After 2 doses of the mumps vaccine, 90% of people will be protected, 10%

will not be protected.

> •

> This means out of every 100 people vaccinated, 90 will be protected.

However, the vaccine will not " take " in 10 people, and these people will

remain susceptible to the disease.

> •

> By comparison, the measles vaccine (also part of the MMR vaccine) is

about 98% effective and the annual influenza vaccine is about 70-85% effective.

> Example 1:

> In a community of 100 people, 100% have been vaccinated. Everyone is

exposed to mumps. What happens?

> •

> 90 people (90%) in the community are protected by the vaccine and do not

get mumps.

> •

> 10 people (10%) in the community become ill with mumps because the

vaccine did not " take " .

> •

> Of the 10 people who get mumps, all (100%) have been vaccinated.

> Example 2:

> In a community of 100, 98% have been vaccinated. That means 98 people

are vaccinated and 2 people are not. Everyone is exposed to mumps. What

happens?

> •

> 88 people (90% of the 98 who are vaccinated) in the community are

protected by the vaccine and do not get mumps.

> •

> 10 people (10% of the 98 who are vaccinated) become ill with mumps

because the vaccine did not " take " .

> •

> 2 people who have never been vaccinated get ill because they have no

immunity to the disease.

> •

> Of the 12 (10 vaccinated +2 unvaccinated) people who get mumps, 83%

(10/12) were vaccinated.

>

> Thus a large percent of the people with mumps have been vaccinated. This

is expected in a highly vaccinated population when dealing with a vaccine

that is 90% effective and a contagious disease like mumps. This does not

mean that the vaccine is not working; in fact the mumps vaccine is working as

expected. Most people who are vaccinated are not getting sick. You have to

remember that during outbreaks many, many people are exposed every day –

90% of them are not getting sick because they have been protected by the

vaccine.

>

> _http://www.state.http://www.sthttp://www.sthttp://www.shttp://www.htt_

(http://www.state.nj.us/health/cd/documents/mumps/mumps_public_faq.pdf)

>

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

From the article/link posted by (asterisks by me):

" Dr. Wakefield's study, which we hope all journalists will take the time to

read, was published in February 1998, twelve years ago. ***Nowhere in the study

does Dr. Wakefield tell parents not to vaccinate their children***, despite

rampant misreporting on this topic.

It has taken twelve long years for the medical community to catch up with Dr.

Wakefield's findings. Finally, just last month, in the American Academy of

Pediatrics journal, Pediatrics, a landmark study was published with the finding

that: " Gastrointestinal disorders and associated symptoms are commonly reported

in individuals with ASDs [autism]. " "

What was in question was his research methods (but one has to ask oneself why

they waited 12 yrs to do this?), and to be fair organizations protesting the

neurotoxins in vaccines and the current vaccine schedule have also torn apart

the research methods of studies done supporting the safety of vaccines, so who

to believe? Unfortunately, it leaves it up to parents to make a decision, which

is really rough considering most of us don't have science degrees.

I think the original poster can look up studies as well as the next person, but

was looking for personal opinions from all of us, right? So here's mine, for

whatever it's worth: I'm grateful that people like Dr. Wakefield are doing

research to determine the side effects of vacccines, both individual ones and

the current schedule of 36 childhood vaccines as a whole, because not enough

information is out there. There are scores of well-documented cases of people

being injured by vaccines in various ways (GBS, anaphylactic shock, death), and

IMHO even one incident is too many, so research must be done. So again, I'm

grateful to those trying to do it. My children are vaccinated, and even though

my son has been diagnosed as on The Spectrum and I do believe that injecting

people with known neurotoxins like mercury and aluminum cannot possibly be

healthy, I recognize that it's the best we have available to us right now, and

hope that this won't always be true. I think it's worthy to fight to " green our

vaccines. " And if I had it all to do again, I'd still choose to vaccinate, but

I'd do it later and slower.

Not sure if this will hurt or help, but I found this interesting, too, and look

forward to hearing more about the " 14 Monkeys " study:

http://www.generationrescue.org/wakefield_statement2.html

Dianne