Re: Extreme CR problems (was: CR, hormesis and moderation)

[Guest guest]

Dave: AFA I know, the problems reported are not chronicled in any one place.

Some of the more " extremist " practitioners have reported:

osteopenia and outright osteoporosis,

low testosterone levels (meaning virtually no sex life),

anemia,

edema as reported today by crdude,

irritability and crankiness,

foggy memory and thinking

.........had enough? If I've left out any, perhops others will add. Anyway

hopefully that should be enough to scare you away from extremism. Mind you,

I'm talking about 6' tall men who are weighing in at 115-130 lbs.

Concentration camp thin, I call it.

on 8/28/2002 12:47 PM, Dave Noel at davenoel@... wrote:

> Are we allowed to use the word " hormesis " in a public forum? After I got out

> of the microwave (it's really hot in there!), I read the rest of this post ~

> should have read the whole thing first I guess...at any rate, is there a

> guideline for optimum CR. I sort of thought that by definition CRON would be

> self regulating in that one might have a tough time securing " optimum

> nutrition " at extreme levels of caloric restriction, but perhaps that is not

> the case. I would be interested in knowing more about " problems " or " stuff "

> experienced by individuals practicing extreme CR ~ by the way, I would like to

> learn about these issues BEFORE I get back into the microwave. Is there a

> resource for problems that have been experienced by CRON practitioners? Dave

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Micky Snir

>

> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:05 AM

> Subject: [ ] CR, hormesis and moderation

>

[Guest guest]

While I'm on a roll, I'd like to share with you some more CR thoughts.

Both as an observer and as a practitioner, I notice some worrying

" religious " like symptoms regarding practice of CR. (please, no offense

for religious people, but it seems to me so easier to explain it in

these terms. CR and religion also have good sides, obviously).

CR requires most of us a substantial (very) life-long sacrifice, with

" promised " benefits (how's the analogy so far?). From this derives many

benefits and dangers. I'll focus on some of the dangers.

God and the bible. From reading the archives it seems that the " good

book " is now named " (beyond) The 120 Year Diet " . The " W " name is used

and the good book is being quoted for answers to questions on this and

the other list as if the answers came from God. Well I'm sorry, " W " is a

great name, but mostly for telling us the CR may extend life. Mostly

rats' life. He has no credentials for telling us what's the best _HUMAN_

CR strategy. His recommendations are based on very weak evidence. Hold

your horses! Don't throw your stones at me, yet; keep reading. _My_

bible starts and ends in Chapter 1, section " The Nature of Evidence " in

" W " 's book: " beyond the 120 Year Diet " . I suggest everyone read it again

(and again and again!), but I'll quote the beginning and the end of the

chapter for you. The chapter start with these words: " If you get nothing

out of this book except what I say in this section, you're way ahead. "

The chapter ends with these words: " I hope you will look just as

critically at all the evidence in this book. That's your first step

toward a super-healthy and extended life. "

Well I read the good book, and I looked critically at all the evidence,

and I found that most of " W " 's recommendations for _HUMAN_ CR to be

based on rather weak evidence. I suggest you re-read the book after

understanding my bible.

Of priests, rabbi's, imam's etc.

Life is too complicated. It's so good to have someone to tell us what to

do; what's best for us. Well I'm no different in this respect. I might

be different in the fact that I keep doubting my Rabbi and my God; I

keep asking myself whether they have hidden motives, private agendas or

simply a different set of priorities than mine. Or they might just be

down right wrong! That said, here are my Rabbis: Rae from the

" main " list, and Wakfer (Tom s) from www.morelife.org. An

example of doubting my Rabbi would be Wakfer: he is in his sixties;

I'm in my thirties. Thus his life-extension priorities are likely to be

more risk oriented than mine. I don't doubt that he's doing the best for

himself, but I doubt whether it's best for _ME_.

CR is tough. When you do something tough, especially if you plan to do

it for the rest of your life, you are easily drawn into a fanatic

mentality. I mean, how else can you cope with a life long deprivation of

food??? So beware of the fanatic mentality because it may blind you;

question your ways and keep an open mind.

Micky.

P.S: I don't mind is someone will forward this email to the main list.

Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:58:41 -0400

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

Subject: Re: Extreme CR problems (was: CR, hormesis and moderation)

Dave: AFA I know, the problems reported are not chronicled in any one

place.

Some of the more " extremist " practitioners have reported:

osteopenia and outright osteoporosis,

low testosterone levels (meaning virtually no sex life),

anemia,

edema as reported today by crdude,

irritability and crankiness,

foggy memory and thinking

<snip>

[Guest guest]

So Micky, let me get this straight. Does this mean that if I fast on T'isha B'av, I will get the best of both bibles? You're going to have to start including Cliff Notes for me if your posts continue to be this philosophical ~ (kidding!). Dave

----- Original Message -----

From: Micky Snir

Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:05 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Extreme CR problems (was: CR, hormesis and moderation)

While I'm on a roll, I'd like to share with you some more CR thoughts.Both as an observer and as a practitioner, I notice some worrying"religious" like symptoms regarding practice of CR. (please, no offensefor religious people, but it seems to me so easier to explain it inthese terms. CR and religion also have good sides, obviously).CR requires most of us a substantial (very) life-long sacrifice, with"promised" benefits (how's the analogy so far?). From this derives manybenefits and dangers. I'll focus on some of the dangers.God and the bible. From reading the archives it seems that the "goodbook" is now named "(beyond) The 120 Year Diet". The "W" name is usedand the good book is being quoted for answers to questions on this andthe other list as if the answers came from God. Well I'm sorry, "W" is agreat name, but mostly for telling us the CR may extend life. Mostlyrats' life. He has no credentials for telling us what's the best _HUMAN_CR strategy. His recommendations are based on very weak evidence. Holdyour horses! Don't throw your stones at me, yet; keep reading. _My_bible starts and ends in Chapter 1, section "The Nature of Evidence" in"W"'s book: "beyond the 120 Year Diet". I suggest everyone read it again(and again and again!), but I'll quote the beginning and the end of thechapter for you. The chapter start with these words: "If you get nothingout of this book except what I say in this section, you're way ahead."The chapter ends with these words: "I hope you will look just ascritically at all the evidence in this book. That's your first steptoward a super-healthy and extended life." Well I read the good book, and I looked critically at all the evidence,and I found that most of "W"'s recommendations for _HUMAN_ CR to bebased on rather weak evidence. I suggest you re-read the book afterunderstanding my bible.Of priests, rabbi's, imam's etc.Life is too complicated. It's so good to have someone to tell us what todo; what's best for us. Well I'm no different in this respect. I mightbe different in the fact that I keep doubting my Rabbi and my God; Ikeep asking myself whether they have hidden motives, private agendas orsimply a different set of priorities than mine. Or they might just bedown right wrong! That said, here are my Rabbis: Rae from the"main" list, and Wakfer (Tom s) from www.morelife.org. Anexample of doubting my Rabbi would be Wakfer: he is in his sixties;I'm in my thirties. Thus his life-extension priorities are likely to bemore risk oriented than mine. I don't doubt that he's doing the best forhimself, but I doubt whether it's best for _ME_.CR is tough. When you do something tough, especially if you plan to doit for the rest of your life, you are easily drawn into a fanaticmentality. I mean, how else can you cope with a life long deprivation offood??? So beware of the fanatic mentality because it may blind you;question your ways and keep an open mind.Micky.P.S: I don't mind is someone will forward this email to the main list. Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:58:41 -0400 From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>Subject: Re: Extreme CR problems (was: CR, hormesis and moderation)Dave: AFA I know, the problems reported are not chronicled in any oneplace.Some of the more "extremist" practitioners have reported:osteopenia and outright osteoporosis,low testosterone levels (meaning virtually no sex life),anemia, edema as reported today by crdude,irritability and crankiness,foggy memory and thinking<snip>

[Guest guest]

Micky,

I must admit I noticed a rather close resemblence to an organized

religion on the CR lists, especially when people quote the 120 year

diet book word for word (I seam to recall a big debate about time to

lose weight a few monthes ago). I also like the comment about

obtaining great rewards at the end of the journey. One difference

though is that religion is based strictly on faith while the

information in Walfords books are based on a small leap of faith

after a large amount of evidence. While the human evidence is weaker

than rat data regarding CR and life extension, I think we can safely

say that CR would prolong life in humans. Let's not forget the other

encouraging evidence from Rhesus monkeys and I believe here was a

study lengthening canine life through calories restricion.

My interest in the 120 year diet is the ON part, life extension is

great if it works but the ON will unarguably improve the quality of

what life you have. The Walford book was a great compilation and

summary of basically " excellent eating habits " which I have read in

many other places and was happy to find summarized in one place. The

diet is alot common sense, reagrdless if you limit the calories

although I do find it difficult to overload calories when eating so

much good food.

Just my 2 cents.

Jpe

> While I'm on a roll, I'd like to share with you some more CR

thoughts.

> Both as an observer and as a practitioner, I notice some worrying

> " religious " like symptoms regarding practice of CR. (please, no

offense

> for religious people, but it seems to me so easier to explain it in

> these terms. CR and religion also have good sides, obviously).

>

> CR requires most of us a substantial (very) life-long sacrifice,

with

> " promised " benefits (how's the analogy so far?). From this derives

many

> benefits and dangers. I'll focus on some of the dangers.

>

> God and the bible. From reading the archives it seems that the " good

> book " is now named " (beyond) The 120 Year Diet " . The " W " name is

used

> and the good book is being quoted for answers to questions on this

and

> the other list as if the answers came from God. Well I'm sorry, " W "

is a

> great name, but mostly for telling us the CR may extend life. Mostly

> rats' life. He has no credentials for telling us what's the best

_HUMAN_

> CR strategy. His recommendations are based on very weak evidence.

Hold

> your horses! Don't throw your stones at me, yet; keep reading. _My_

> bible starts and ends in Chapter 1, section " The Nature of

Evidence " in

> " W " 's book: " beyond the 120 Year Diet " . I suggest everyone read it

again

> (and again and again!), but I'll quote the beginning and the end of

the

> chapter for you. The chapter start with these words: " If you get

nothing

> out of this book except what I say in this section, you're way

ahead. "

> The chapter ends with these words: " I hope you will look just as

> critically at all the evidence in this book. That's your first step

> toward a super-healthy and extended life. "

> Well I read the good book, and I looked critically at all the

evidence,

> and I found that most of " W " 's recommendations for _HUMAN_ CR to be

> based on rather weak evidence. I suggest you re-read the book after

> understanding my bible.

>

> Of priests, rabbi's, imam's etc.

> Life is too complicated. It's so good to have someone to tell us

what to

> do; what's best for us. Well I'm no different in this respect. I

might

> be different in the fact that I keep doubting my Rabbi and my God; I

> keep asking myself whether they have hidden motives, private

agendas or

> simply a different set of priorities than mine. Or they might just

be

> down right wrong! That said, here are my Rabbis: Rae from

the

> " main " list, and Wakfer (Tom s) from www.morelife.org.

An

> example of doubting my Rabbi would be Wakfer: he is in his

sixties;

> I'm in my thirties. Thus his life-extension priorities are likely

to be

> more risk oriented than mine. I don't doubt that he's doing the

best for

> himself, but I doubt whether it's best for _ME_.

>

> CR is tough. When you do something tough, especially if you plan to

do

> it for the rest of your life, you are easily drawn into a fanatic

> mentality. I mean, how else can you cope with a life long

deprivation of

> food??? So beware of the fanatic mentality because it may blind you;

> question your ways and keep an open mind.

>

> Micky.

>

> P.S: I don't mind is someone will forward this email to the main

list.

>

>

> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:58:41 -0400

> From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@e...>

> Subject: Re: Extreme CR problems (was: CR, hormesis and moderation)

>

> Dave: AFA I know, the problems reported are not chronicled in any

one

> place.

> Some of the more " extremist " practitioners have reported:

>

> osteopenia and outright osteoporosis,

> low testosterone levels (meaning virtually no sex life),

> anemia,

> edema as reported today by crdude,

> irritability and crankiness,

> foggy memory and thinking

> <snip>

[Guest guest]

Mickey and Joe: first of all, my hat is off to Mickey for his healthy

questioning of what he's seeing. But I'd like to add to Joe's mention of

evidence that we also have the example of a human population: the Okinawans,

who live longer and healthier. However, they practise CR in moderation and

NOT to the extreme.

I question also (sticking my own neck out here) whether the extremism causes

an abnormal mental behavioral change (and I disagree that extremism is seen

on this list; at least not to the degree as on the Society list) . Does the

extreme CR lead to the fanaticism and fervor you talk about? Or, perhaps CR

attracts people who are already obsessive in their behavior?

After all we know there are some mental effects such as irritability and

fuzzy thinking in some individuals, so it's not such a stretch.

on 8/28/2002 3:44 PM, joesmad2001 at fernaj@... wrote:

> Micky,

>......... While the human evidence is weaker

> than rat data regarding CR and life extension, I think we can safely

> say that CR would prolong life in humans. Let's not forget the other

> encouraging evidence from Rhesus monkeys and I believe here was a

> study lengthening canine life through calories restricion.

>

> My interest in the 120 year diet is the ON part, life extension is

> great if it works but the ON will unarguably improve the quality of

> what life you have.

> Jpe

>

>

>> While I'm on a roll, I'd like to share with you some more CR

> thoughts.

>> Both as an observer and as a practitioner, I notice some worrying

>> " religious " like symptoms regarding practice of CR. (please, no

> offense

>> for religious people, but it seems to me so easier to explain it in

>> these terms. CR and religion also have good sides, obviously).......

>>

[Guest guest]

I'm going to share my views here as I did earlier this morning on the

Society List regarding fanatical adherence to CR (specifically dining

out) since it applies wherever one is eating.

-----Original Message-----

From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer [mailto:kitty@...]

Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:42 AM

CRSOCIETY@...

Cc: Kitty Antonik Wakfer

Subject: Re: Strategies for dining out, etc.

In my view, and 's too since he actually read this to me before I

saw it, the depictions of Anonymous' adherence to CR is fanatical

(and some of Dean's comments also). If I had not been practicing CR

for more than 2 years and knew only of his practices, I would cringe

at the thought that I'd have to live my life this way in order to be

healthy and likely live longer. Fortunately and I have found

that this is not the case.

We dine out every 1 to 2 weeks, making a choice from the numerous

restaurants in the Annex area of Toronto (near the University) to

which we can walk. We really enjoy ethnic foods (just thinking of it

reminds me that it's been many months since we last visited an

Ethiopean restaurant - several of their spicy dishes are served with

their unique moist flat bread which is delicious); but well prepared

fish is also delightful. And then there's the mushroom cheeseburger

with french fries, coleslaw and a pickle to which we treat ourselves

(shared between the 2 of us - sometimes with a fried cheese and

tomato salad) every couple of months. Almost forgot the

pizza/discussion/video parties we go to every month or 2 at a

friend's here in Toronto - she adds lots of veggies to meat/plain

frozen pizza and many more are eaten raw.

Since we adhere strictly at home to meals which are 2/3 nutrient dense

vegetables and 1/3 lean protein - no white potatoes, rice, or pasta -

we don't consciously restrict ourselves when we eat out, although we

do make nutritious choices because that is what our tastes have now

been trained to enjoy - and we don't feel any desire to " pig out " on

these occasions. We don't routinely count calories; our weights have

leveled out at 111-113 for me (BMI 18.5 - 18.8; fat% 15.0-16.5

before sleep) and 139-141 for (BMI 19.7 - 20.0; fat%

registering 0 before sleep, 2-3% on awakening). I counted the

calories in our typical meals last year (~1400 for me and ~1800

for ) and since I've not gained (but actually lost an additional 6

pounds in that time) nor either, we don't do so on a daily or

even weekly basis. (I will recheck our calories again after our trip

next week out of curiosity.)

The point is that we have developed ways of eating nutritiously that

have produced the lowest weights we have ever been since early

adulthood, while at the same time providing us with gastronomic

enjoyment and more energy and vitality both physical and mental than

we have ever enjoyed or that we see in others. (And this last

applies to the 20 year olds we left at The Tonic at 1am this morning

after 90 minutes of non-stop high energy house dancing! None of them

danced as energetically for as long as did the 2 of us.)

CR does not have to be painful, nor does having a BMI 18 to 20 require

denying one's self the pleasure of occasional dining out. Actually we

did more than " occasional " on our 2 last trips and I only gained 2

lbs (0 for ) while in the UK in April for 10 days and none for

either of us on the 2 weeker to Europe which ended 8/1. On both

trips, we simply minimized the starches and maximized the vegetables

while including good sources of protein. Most of the time we were

full and eating a dessert would have just been too much, but we

definitely enjoyed the fruit and cheese in one restaurant in Milan

and the shared lemone gelato in another.

Most of the details of how we eat regularly at home and extend them to

dining out are on the Diet Regimen page at MoreLife accessible from

the Personal Health (http://morelife.org/personal/health/ ). A

description of our European trip eating experiences are in the latest

entry in the Kitty Reflects on MoreLife from

http://morelife.org/personal/

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

Associate of Tom s ( Wakfer)

***

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org

Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality

-------------------------

On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:26:27 -0400, Dean Pomerleau

<deanp@...>

wrote:

>I had the following off-list correspondence with another CRONie (who

I

haven't

>asked permission to post the interaction, so will remain anonymous)

that I

>thought people would be interested in.

>

>It deals with the subject of strategies for dining out, and handling

the

>feelings of guilt that can sometimes accompany these occasions.

>

>As always, comments welcome.

>

>--Dean

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------

>Anonymous wrote:

>> Did you go off your diet while you were traveling --

>> perhaps resorting to higher-energy-density foods

>> instead of your usual high-veggie regimen?

>

>Are you kidding - I *never* go off my diet.

[snip]

>> I have personally avoided restaurants since beginning CR.

[snip]

>> As funny as it sounds, I am DEATHLY AFRAID of ENJOYING the food!

[snip]

>

>I too have a love/hate relationship with dining out.

[snip]

>One thing I've done recently when nobodies been looking (i.e. when

I'm

cleaning

>up the dishes from my family's dinner), that I'm not particularly

proud

of, is

>to taste, chew and then spit out a bite of two of whatever " sinful "

food my

>family had for dinner.

[snip]

>> I usually do a one or two meal " ad-lib gorge " once every 5-6

>> months during company or family functions

>> ...

>> To the best of my ability, I will be counting calories during the

function.

>

[snip]

>In my head I (and I suspect you) realize a single day of imperfect

eating

won't

>kill me (or likely shorten my lifespan by any detectable amount),

but that

still

>doesn't make it easy to overcome the feeling of guilt. We build a

wall up

>against unhealthy/excessive eating as a means of coping with the

hardship

of CR,

>and sometimes it is hard to temporarily penetrate that wall when

>necessary/appropriate.

[snip]

>> As a fellow " extreme " CRONie, I would really appreciate

>> a discussion on this issue.

>

>Hope this helps!

>

>--Dean

-------------------------------------------------------------

[snip]

> I question also (sticking my own neck out here) whether the

extremism causes

> an abnormal mental behavioral change (and I disagree that extremism

is seen

> on this list; at least not to the degree as on the Society list) .

Does the

> extreme CR lead to the fanaticism and fervor you talk about? Or,

perhaps CR

> attracts people who are already obsessive in their behavior?

>

> After all we know there are some mental effects such as

irritability and

> fuzzy thinking in some individuals, so it's not such a stretch.

[Guest guest]

Kitty: I saw that too and cringed. Thanks for weighing in on this. As Bob

Cavanaugh noted in a response to Dean and anonymous, lugging around several

days worth of food in a cooler sounds " extremely " extreme. I also felt that

the swishing around of " sinful " food and then spitting it out is certainly

the beginnings of bulemia. Better to enjoy a small portion of the " sinful "

food every now and then if you ask me, then to start a journey off the deep

end.

However, to Bob C.and Kitty, I don't think this is fixable by some advice

given to the extremists on a list. These are signs that such behavior must

be addressed by psychiatric intervention or medication. Just an opinion,

from someone who has seen this stuff before.

on 8/29/2002 8:50 AM, kittyaw at kitty@... wrote:

> In my view, and 's too since he actually read this to me before I

> saw it, the depictions of Anonymous' adherence to CR is fanatical

> (and some of Dean's comments also).