RE: CR problems (was: CR, hormesis and moderation)

[Guest guest]

First, I would like to apologize for my late response. I used the digest

mode, but I changed it today to individual emails. I will try to batch

my answers together.

joesmad2001 wrote: " One difference though is that religion is based

strictly on faith while the information in Walfords books are based on a

small leap of faith after a large amount of evidence. "

I reply: " agree. I have not doubt (read: I have complete faith) that CR

works in humans. I do doubt the _METHOD_ the W suggests, or for that

matter anyone else (I do not doubt the reduction of " empty " calories,

but are fats and protein empty?). I also don't have the slightest clue

what's the best level of restriction, what's my set point etc. "

joesmad2001 wrote: " My interest in the 120 year diet is the ON part "

I reply: " and my point is exactly that W made a great move away from the

SAD diet, but made otherwise recommendations based on weak evidence, and

IMO wrong. "

Suzanne Cart wrote: " Micky...when people who care about you begin to

question your sanity, SO SHOULD YOU. There's a fine line between CRON

and CRAZY, and IMO one of the first symptoms of CRON-GONE-BAD is

delusional and distorted thinking. If you're getting complaints or

concerned comments from friends, family and/or co-workers, they are

probably RIGHT. "

I reply: " huh? Can you please be more specific? I completely fail to get

your point. "

Francesca Skelton wrote: " Does the extreme CR lead to the fanaticism and

fervor you talk about? Or, perhaps CR attracts people who are already

obsessive in their behavior? "

I reply: " I meant neither. I meant that living a life of deprivation in

hope of some very far away benefits (and some short term) requires deep

faith. Deep faith may develop in some to extreme faith (what I called

fanaticism), effectively closing their once open mind (in regard to CR).

An example is when someone start to enjoy the deprivation (IMO you can

enjoy the bennies, or the prospect of them, but not the deprivation

itself... unless you're a masochist). I struggle with myself over this.

I keep reminding myself to be on the lookout for evidence that CR is bad

for _ME_, or that my CR _WAY_ should change because it doesn't " work "

for _ME_. One can easily " close hir mind " on such a long and not easy

journey. Ask yourself this: what if the primate CR studies eventually

show that CR is detrimental? Will you stop CR (and obviously keep the ON

part)? If the answer is " no! " , then you are likely a fanatic; if the

answer is " this will not happen " then you are " under suspicion " and if

you answer " damn; I have to think about it " ... "

Dave Noel wrote: " how about some good news. Has anyone in this group,

with some history of practicing CRON i.e. a year or more, had good

results in terms of health, biomarkers, general well-being. "

I reply: " my point in my email was that we not only look at the bennies

of CR (which I believe are obvious, but might be wrong), but at the

dangers of CR. I will set an example by stating the good bennies for me,

and the dangers I faced:

Bennies: cholesterol down from 250 to 150, HDL up from 35 to 60, LDL

down from 130 to 100, TriGlycerides down from 160 to 60, blood glucose

down from lower 90's to lower 70's, blood pressure down from 120/80 to

105/65, loosing more than 50 pounds of fat (and gaining more than 20 of

muscles, but that's not from CR :-), looking better, being healthier

(much less colds) and forgetting the rest :-)

Dangers: crankiness, being perceived as a " weird eater " by friends (or a

heath nut), dizziness upon getting up (probably a baro-refelx issue,

once to the point of blacking out; fixed now), extremely dry hands

(fixed now), mild loss of libido, weakness/shakiness in the afternoon

(disappeared after adding salt!) and a mild obsession about health and

food.

For the record, I'm not an extreme CR practitioner. I eat about 2000

calories per day, workout only 3 times a week for less than 40 minutes

each time; I'm 5'10 " and weighed this morning 173 pound with 10% body

fat. Still loosing weight very slowly.

Micky.

[Guest guest]

Micky: If you were having dizziness, dry hands, libido loss, weakness

(we'll overlook the mild obsession with health and food, since you're now

seemingly questioning that) you were doing something wrong. I, and I'm

willing to bet most other moderates, haven't had those symptoms/problems.

Anyway, whatever that was about, it's good you are questioning.

AFA my answers (and I suspect other's answers) to your original post, I was

just adding my own observations of the behavior of some extremists. The

earlier posts today to the list: one from Kitty which incorporated a post

from Cavanaugh, and an answer from me, confirm that some of the

extremists are exhibiting the questionable behavior I was talking about

yesterday.

on 8/29/2002 1:06 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

but at the dangers of CR. I will set an example by stating the good bennies

for me, and the dangers I faced:

> Dangers: crankiness, being perceived as a " weird eater " by friends (or a

> heath nut), dizziness upon getting up (probably a baro-refelx issue,

> once to the point of blacking out; fixed now), extremely dry hands

> (fixed now), mild loss of libido, weakness/shakiness in the afternoon

> (disappeared after adding salt!) and a mild obsession about health and

> food.

>

> For the record, I'm not an extreme CR practitioner. I eat about 2000

> calories per day, workout only 3 times a week for less than 40 minutes

> each time; I'm 5'10 " and weighed this morning 173 pound with 10% body

> fat. Still loosing weight very slowly.

>

> Micky.