Re: Study: Vegetarians not healthier

[Guest guest]

From: " Hipp " <@...>

Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:14 AM

Subject: [ ] Study: Vegetarians not healthier

> This may provide some mild vindication for us proud carnivores :-)

>

>

I would say, even the word " mild " , here, is overly optimistic.

> Vegetarians not Healthier....

> Meat-eaters healthier

> Health reasons were also not behind the choice to avoid meat, the report

> found. In fact, those students who ate meat were more health conscious and

> tended to be healthier than the vegetarians.

>

> Women on low-meat diets reported being sick more often than their peers,

> while low-meat eating men found that they were tired and experienced

> headaches more often than their peers. Both the men and women also

reported

> being depressed more often than the meat-eaters.

Now tell me, you conclude carnivorism is healthier, based on, for example,

young

vegetarians' self-reporting of feeling depressed?

It seems clear to me, that rather than making their lifestyle choice based

on reading

of medical studies, young people's choice of vegetarianism *might* be

influenced by

their feeling of not fitting in, unhappiness with their present life. In

this possibility, it

is easy to understand how the same souls would report, note 'self report',

illness

and depression, likely psychosomatic events.

Hue

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Hue " <kargo_cult@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 1:17 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Study: Vegetarians not healthier

> From: " Hipp " <@...>

> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:14 AM

> Subject: [ ] Study: Vegetarians not healthier

>

>

> > This may provide some mild vindication for us proud carnivores :-)

> >

> >

>

> I would say, even the word " mild " , here, is overly optimistic.

No. Not really. It is consistent with what we know of optimum nutrition and

born out by practical experience.

> > Vegetarians not Healthier....

>

> > Meat-eaters healthier

> > Health reasons were also not behind the choice to avoid meat, the report

> > found. In fact, those students who ate meat were more health conscious

and

> > tended to be healthier than the vegetarians.

> >

> > Women on low-meat diets reported being sick more often than their peers,

> > while low-meat eating men found that they were tired and experienced

> > headaches more often than their peers. Both the men and women also

> reported

> > being depressed more often than the meat-eaters.

>

> Now tell me, you conclude carnivorism is healthier, based on, for example,

> young

> vegetarians' self-reporting of feeling depressed?

I didn't conclude anything. I copied and pasted a news story into an email.

I stopped vegetarianism myself, a long time ago, based on a broader reading

of the available evidence and my own negative experiences with it.

> It seems clear to me, that rather than making their lifestyle choice based

> on reading

> of medical studies, young people's choice of vegetarianism *might* be

> influenced by

> their feeling of not fitting in, unhappiness with their present life. In

> this possibility, it

> is easy to understand how the same souls would report, note 'self report',

> illness

> and depression, likely psychosomatic events.

Trying to know people's motivation for adopting vegetarianism is an exercise

in speculation.

Of those I've had a chance to know closely, most of them adopted

vegetarianism because they believed the indoctrination of the " fat is the

root of all evil, humans have a digestive system like cows, meat is

unequivocally bad for you " theology. Which has all long been proven false.

But the study stands, as is, to the extent that correlation ever equals

causality.

[Guest guest]

they believed the indoctrination of the " fat is the

> root of all evil, humans have a digestive system like cows, meat is

> unequivocally bad for you " theology. Which has all long been proven

false.

I've kind of come to this conclusion in my own experience also but I

would love to read where this " has been proven false " . Could you

lead me to some of this research?

[Guest guest]

Interesting thread and I also would like to know people's motivations for

becoming vegetarian. Since fish oil is so important to health, I hope

vegetarians are at least ingesting the fish oil capsules or substituting

with flax oil.

on 9/14/2002 11:54 AM, Hipp at @... wrote:

> Trying to know people's motivation for adopting vegetarianism is an exercise

> in speculation.

>

> Of those I've had a chance to know closely, most of them adopted

> vegetarianism because they believed the indoctrination of the " fat is the

> root of all evil, humans have a digestive system like cows, meat is

> unequivocally bad for you " theology. Which has all long been proven false.

>

> But the study stands, as is, to the extent that correlation ever equals

> causality.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Sep 14, 2002 at 03:24:35PM -0400, Francesca Skelton wrote:

> Interesting thread and I also would like to know people's motivations for

> becoming vegetarian. Since fish oil is so important to health, I hope

> vegetarians are at least ingesting the fish oil capsules or substituting

> with flax oil.

>

I'm not a full vegetarian, as I eat fish. My motivations for avoiding

meat from farmed land animals are various. Firstly, I am a biochemist

and I don't like the widespread use of hormones and antibiotics which

are used to promote growth. Another reason

I avoid this kind of meat is that I live in the countryside, and wimp out

at the thought of eating animals I see daily in fields near my house.

Finally, I have never really liked meat - as I child I would always prefer

extra portions of vegetables. I was particularly squeamish about what

was in sausages and burgers (a healthy attitude in hindsight, considering

the BSE epidemic).

Steve Zara

> on 9/14/2002 11:54 AM, Hipp at @... wrote:

>

> > Trying to know people's motivation for adopting vegetarianism is an exercise

> > in speculation.

> >

> > Of those I've had a chance to know closely, most of them adopted

> > vegetarianism because they believed the indoctrination of the " fat is the

> > root of all evil, humans have a digestive system like cows, meat is

> > unequivocally bad for you " theology. Which has all long been proven false.

> >

> > But the study stands, as is, to the extent that correlation ever equals

> > causality.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Steve Zara " <steve@...>

Subject: Re: [ ] Study: Vegetarians not healthier

> On Sat, Sep 14, 2002 at 03:24:35PM -0400, Francesca Skelton wrote:

> > Interesting thread and I also would like to know people's motivations

for

> > becoming vegetarian.....

>Another reason

> I avoid this kind of meat is that I live in the countryside, and wimp out

> at the thought of eating animals I see daily in fields near my house.

Or, to possibly put it in other terms, disgust with the ways of the factory

farm system, and its processing of the animals, humans, and environment

that it consumes. I just happened to be reading an editorial in the NYT

for 8/30/02 that outlined the same thinking, titled " Curse of the factory

farms. " You don't have to be an environmental fanatic to be concerned

about the environmental cost of huge sewage lagoons or the accident

rate among workers. Yes - the plants do provide jobs for people

desperately needing jobs. But if we, we CR followers, are going to endure

on the planet longer than the usual ephemeral breeding span, we should

maybe use our extra time and energy to address issues wider than

survival. ( but not necessarily address them here, i admit.). One can

find meat produced in less harmful ways but this adds another level of

complexity to daily life.

Another thing about carnivorism - meat eating seems pretty closely

associated with the free style recreational eating that so contributes

to the fattening of America. I mean, if you don't see much commercial

TV, you pick up on that right away. Not much money to pay for ads,

for say, raw vegetable salads, as compared to mouth watering hamburger

assemblies with calories in the 4 digits.

Okay- not technically viable reasons for a more - vegetarian course.

But they do have weight, in setting one's direction. IMO.

Hue

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Hue " <kargo_cult@...>

< >

Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:22 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Study: Vegetarians not healthier

[snip]

> Or, to possibly put it in other terms, disgust with the ways of the

factory

> farm system, and its processing of the animals, humans, and environment

> that it consumes. I just happened to be reading an editorial in the NYT

> for 8/30/02 that outlined the same thinking, titled " Curse of the factory

> farms. " You don't have to be an environmental fanatic to be concerned

> about the environmental cost of huge sewage lagoons or the accident

> rate among workers. Yes - the plants do provide jobs for people

> desperately needing jobs. But if we, we CR followers, are going to endure

> on the planet longer than the usual ephemeral breeding span, we should

> maybe use our extra time and energy to address issues wider than

> survival. ( but not necessarily address them here, i admit.). One can

> find meat produced in less harmful ways but this adds another level of

> complexity to daily life.

All very true. The " high efficiency " form of agriculture is ruining the U.S.

food supply (IMHO) especially as regards animal-related products. Most of

the stuff on the grocery shelves is very poor quality. The family farm may

not be efficient, but it often does turn out a quality product. A somewhat

more relaxed style of production is everyway better on the owners, consumers

and the animals too.

> Another thing about carnivorism - meat eating seems pretty closely

> associated with the free style recreational eating that so contributes

> to the fattening of America. I mean, if you don't see much commercial

> TV, you pick up on that right away. Not much money to pay for ads,

> for say, raw vegetable salads, as compared to mouth watering hamburger

> assemblies with calories in the 4 digits.

Yes. And it is a definite truth that Americans eat too much meat in

proportion to not nearly enough vegetables. Couple that with the low quality

of meat and veggies and it becomes really suboptimal. As omnivores and

physiologically similar to the primates, we need lots of veggies and a

modest amount of meat and perhaps some grains but most of the stuff

advertised on TV could hardly be classified as any of those.

Alas, the ads are playing to what sells. No different than the rest of the

sludge that comes out of Hollywood. Rhetorically: so who do we blame - the

producer or the consumer?

Or, better answer, ignore them and keep our own houses in order.

[Guest guest]

This made me think of Quantum Mechanic who recently informed us that 50% of

his calories come from protein. Quantie, in what form is your protein

consumption? I assume that you don't eat much (if any) red meat in order to

keep your total calories low? Care to give us your protein sources?

on 9/14/2002 7:35 PM, Hipp at @... wrote:

> we need lots of veggies and a

> modest amount of meat and perhaps some grains but most of the stuff

> advertised on TV could hardly be classified as any of those.

>

> Alas, the ads are playing to what sells. No different than the rest of the

> sludge that comes out of Hollywood. Rhetorically: so who do we blame - the

> producer or the consumer?

>

> Or, better answer, ignore them and keep our own houses in order.

>

>