stretching

[Guest guest]

Hi Suz. I’m obviously not a match

for your expertise. I’m just a layperson reading around on the Internet

and some books, and the only formal certification I have is hardly related to

my Job, though my boss does not really know that…

I’ll use Laymanese in my attempt to

answer your questions, though I am obviously not equipped to debate the issues.

So if for example you try to stretch your

hamstrings by standing, straightening you legs and bending forward from the hip,

then if you also bend you lower back (trying to touch your toes), you will

stretch some connective tissue in your lower back. Stretching the hams is most

probably better done with a flat back, and somewhat bent knees. Sure, you can’t

touch the toes of your feet this way, but this not the goal of stretching the

hams. Obviously when you stretch your muscles, there’s tension on the

connective tissue as well. However, biomechanically you can do the stretching

in a way that puts more stress on the tendons. You don’t want to stretch

tendons, since they are highly not plastic. My layknowlege says that a

stretched tendon does not shrink back to its original size, or that it takes “forever”.

And that’s the connection to destabilizing joints: stretched tendons hold

the bones to the joint more “loosly”, thus harm joint “stability”.

I hope I connected some dots, though I admit

I could be dead wrong, and again, I’m just a layperson and cannot debate

this, or come up with references. The reason I sent my original email is to let

people know that there are also dangers in stretching.

Micky.

P.S. I did only 2 shoulder presses with

100#. One from the bottom, shoulder level, and the second only down to a bit

below parallel. And that’s concurrently with both arms, each arm holding

a 100# dumbbell (AKA a CRONIE unit)…

-----Original Message-----

From: Suzanne Cart

[mailto:massuz@...]

Sent: Tuesday,

September 17, 2002 6:02 PM

CR Support Group

Subject: [ ]

Stretching

Micky, I gotta ask.

How does one stretch " connective tissues and not only muscles? "

I can't figure out how to DO that. If I stretch my hamstrings, just for

example, am I not stretching the fascia and the tendons along with the

muscles? Except for possibly an isolated stretch of the iliotibial band,

I'm at a loss to understand what you're getting at. What do you mean when

you say that stretching can harm joint stability? What IS joint

stability? Are you talking about injuring the joint by

overstretching? And how is it that I'm even more likely to " harm

joint stability " if I stretch " connective tissue and not only

muscles? " Connect the dots for me. This sounds like a whole

new branch of exercise physiology that I missed somewhere.

Francesca, the debate

about stretching is normally held in another email group on down the

hall. They've been debating this issue for years because nobody wants to

admit that nobody really knows the answer. I'll just tell you what I do,

because that's what I was TAUGHT to TEACH people to do when I prepared for my

AFAA certification exams in personal training/weight room training.

(Note: AFAA is to NSCA and ACSM as Alfred E. Neuman is to Geroge Bush and

Al Gore, so take my advice with a grain of skepticism.) Anyway, I was

TAUGHT to warm-up for approximately 8 minutes. You're " warm "

when you feel lightly sweaty. Then stretch LIGHTLY, gently for 3 or 4

minutes. THEN do your workout, whatever that may be for the day.

FOLLOWING the workout and a cooldown, stretch relatively more

DEEPLY for 10 or 12 minutes.

Hey Dave. No, I

don't shoulder press 120# for 40 reps. Kale isn't THAT good!

Suz

[Guest guest]

As a jogger I have very tight hams and stretch them while sitting on the ground. I was under the impression that bouncing and/or using the weight of of your upper body to push the stretch was not good... however I'm chronically tight and need to stretch more.. I've heard good things about Pilates and Yoga, any experience pro/con out there?

JR

-----Original Message-----From: Micky Snir [mailto:mickys@...]Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:05 PM Subject: RE: [ ] Stretching

Hi Suz. I’m obviously not a match for your expertise. I’m just a layperson reading around on the Internet and some books, and the only formal certification I have is hardly related to my Job, though my boss does not really know that…

I’ll use Laymanese in my attempt to answer your questions, though I am obviously not equipped to debate the issues.

So if for example you try to stretch your hamstrings by standing, straightening you legs and bending forward from the hip, then if you also bend you lower back (trying to touch your toes), you will stretch some connective tissue in your lower back. Stretching the hams is most probably better done with a flat back, and somewhat bent knees. Sure, you can’t touch the toes of your feet this way, but this not the goal of stretching the hams. Obviously when you stretch your muscles, there’s tension on the connective tissue as well. However, biomechanically you can do the stretching in a way that puts more stress on the tendons. You don’t want to stretch tendons, since they are highly not plastic. My layknowlege says that a stretched tendon does not shrink back to its original size, or that it takes “forever”. And that’s the connection to destabilizing joints: stretched tendons hold the bones to the joint more “loosly”, thus harm joint “stability”.

I hope I connected some dots, though I admit I could be dead wrong, and again, I’m just a layperson and cannot debate this, or come up with references. The reason I sent my original email is to let people know that there are also dangers in stretching.

Micky.

P.S. I did only 2 shoulder presses with 100#. One from the bottom, shoulder level, and the second only down to a bit below parallel. And that’s concurrently with both arms, each arm holding a 100# dumbbell (AKA a CRONIE unit)…

-----Original Message-----From: Suzanne Cart [mailto:massuz@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 6:02 PMCR Support GroupSubject: [ ] Stretching

Micky, I gotta ask. How does one stretch "connective tissues and not only muscles?" I can't figure out how to DO that. If I stretch my hamstrings, just for example, am I not stretching the fascia and the tendons along with the muscles? Except for possibly an isolated stretch of the iliotibial band, I'm at a loss to understand what you're getting at. What do you mean when you say that stretching can harm joint stability? What IS joint stability? Are you talking about injuring the joint by overstretching? And how is it that I'm even more likely to "harm joint stability" if I stretch "connective tissue and not only muscles?" Connect the dots for me. This sounds like a whole new branch of exercise physiology that I missed somewhere.

Francesca, the debate about stretching is normally held in another email group on down the hall. They've been debating this issue for years because nobody wants to admit that nobody really knows the answer. I'll just tell you what I do, because that's what I was TAUGHT to TEACH people to do when I prepared for my AFAA certification exams in personal training/weight room training. (Note: AFAA is to NSCA and ACSM as Alfred E. Neuman is to Geroge Bush and Al Gore, so take my advice with a grain of skepticism.) Anyway, I was TAUGHT to warm-up for approximately 8 minutes. You're "warm" when you feel lightly sweaty. Then stretch LIGHTLY, gently for 3 or 4 minutes. THEN do your workout, whatever that may be for the day. FOLLOWING the workout and a cooldown, stretch relatively more DEEPLY for 10 or 12 minutes.

Hey Dave. No, I don't shoulder press 120# for 40 reps. Kale isn't THAT good!

Suz

[Guest guest]

, Yeah to both Yoga and Pilates or so I hear. Chele convinced me to try yoga on two separate occasions and I am convinced that for flexibility, balance and relaxation, this is a worthwhile practice. Unfortunately for me, the last time I took a yoga class, the instructor (some swami baloney) had us on all fours roaring like a lion (lion face pose or something) and that was pretty much the last time I attended a yoga class! Even though I live in Boulder CO, I guess I need some form of guy's yoga ~ you know, like they put you on a rack, you close your eyes and hum the Marine Corps Hymn ...or at least something less touchy feely than the last class I experienced. Meanwhile, why don't you try it out for yourself and let us know if you find it beneficial! Always, Dave Noel

----- Original Message -----

From: john roberts

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 1:37 PM

Subject: RE: [ ] Stretching

As a jogger I have very tight hams and stretch them while sitting on the ground. I was under the impression that bouncing and/or using the weight of of your upper body to push the stretch was not good... however I'm chronically tight and need to stretch more.. I've heard good things about Pilates and Yoga, any experience pro/con out there?

JR

-----Original Message-----From: Micky Snir [mailto:mickys@...]Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:05 PM Subject: RE: [ ] Stretching

Hi Suz. I’m obviously not a match for your expertise. I’m just a layperson reading around on the Internet and some books, and the only formal certification I have is hardly related to my Job, though my boss does not really know that…

I’ll use Laymanese in my attempt to answer your questions, though I am obviously not equipped to debate the issues.

So if for example you try to stretch your hamstrings by standing, straightening you legs and bending forward from the hip, then if you also bend you lower back (trying to touch your toes), you will stretch some connective tissue in your lower back. Stretching the hams is most probably better done with a flat back, and somewhat bent knees. Sure, you can’t touch the toes of your feet this way, but this not the goal of stretching the hams. Obviously when you stretch your muscles, there’s tension on the connective tissue as well. However, biomechanically you can do the stretching in a way that puts more stress on the tendons. You don’t want to stretch tendons, since they are highly not plastic. My layknowlege says that a stretched tendon does not shrink back to its original size, or that it takes “forever”. And that’s the connection to destabilizing joints: stretched tendons hold the bones to the joint more “loosly”, thus harm joint “stability”.

I hope I connected some dots, though I admit I could be dead wrong, and again, I’m just a layperson and cannot debate this, or come up with references. The reason I sent my original email is to let people know that there are also dangers in stretching.

Micky.

P.S. I did only 2 shoulder presses with 100#. One from the bottom, shoulder level, and the second only down to a bit below parallel. And that’s concurrently with both arms, each arm holding a 100# dumbbell (AKA a CRONIE unit)…

-----Original Message-----From: Suzanne Cart [mailto:massuz@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 6:02 PMCR Support GroupSubject: [ ] Stretching

Micky, I gotta ask. How does one stretch "connective tissues and not only muscles?" I can't figure out how to DO that. If I stretch my hamstrings, just for example, am I not stretching the fascia and the tendons along with the muscles? Except for possibly an isolated stretch of the iliotibial band, I'm at a loss to understand what you're getting at. What do you mean when you say that stretching can harm joint stability? What IS joint stability? Are you talking about injuring the joint by overstretching? And how is it that I'm even more likely to "harm joint stability" if I stretch "connective tissue and not only muscles?" Connect the dots for me. This sounds like a whole new branch of exercise physiology that I missed somewhere.

Francesca, the debate about stretching is normally held in another email group on down the hall. They've been debating this issue for years because nobody wants to admit that nobody really knows the answer. I'll just tell you what I do, because that's what I was TAUGHT to TEACH people to do when I prepared for my AFAA certification exams in personal training/weight room training. (Note: AFAA is to NSCA and ACSM as Alfred E. Neuman is to Geroge Bush and Al Gore, so take my advice with a grain of skepticism.) Anyway, I was TAUGHT to warm-up for approximately 8 minutes. You're "warm" when you feel lightly sweaty. Then stretch LIGHTLY, gently for 3 or 4 minutes. THEN do your workout, whatever that may be for the day. FOLLOWING the workout and a cooldown, stretch relatively more DEEPLY for 10 or 12 minutes.

Hey Dave. No, I don't shoulder press 120# for 40 reps. Kale isn't THAT good!

Suz

[Guest guest]

> As a jogger I have very tight hams and stretch them while

> sitting on the ground. I was under the impression that bouncing

> and/or using the weight of of your upper body to push the stretch

> was not good...

Bouncing is almost universally frowned on - it results in

concentrated, small, out-of-control stretches :-(

Using the weight of your body has a number of positive points.

You can apply force with little or no effort - resulting in a longer

stretch, and better relaxation during it.

There are some minuses: if you're stiff and just hang forwards you

may just be stretching your lumbar - not the desired effect *at all*.

Standing forward folds also affect your circulation and digestive

systems in a way that seated folding does not.

I find CR helps with stretching programs. For one thing there is

less time spent incapacitated while digesting food.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Micky. I sorta think maybe I see what you MIGHT be getting at. During a muscle stretch, there's a built-in defense mechanism of the tendons or stretch relfex, having to do with the Golgi tendon organs. During a slow static stretch, this stretch reflex is not invoked, so the muscles are able to relax and be stretched. During a ballistic stretch, the stretch reflex is usually triggered, so that the purpose of stretching is defeated (because the muscles won't relax) and the chances are increased of injuring the muscles and/or connective tissues.

So the gospel of stretching has always been "don't bounce."

Yeah, yoga and Pilates are great for flexibility. Now comes my great, truly great Pilates story and why I don't do Pilates. I was taking a course for instructors in L.A. on how to teach Pilates. About 3 weeks into the course, the screwball instructor used me as the guinea pig to demonstrate a technique before the class. The moron injured my right hamstrings so severely that I was unable to function well for weeks. Needless to say, I got my money back and can always say that I went to Pilates school for 3 weeks! Most people, however, love the Pilates workout. As a strength workout, it sucks...IMO. But its awesome if you're a dancer.

Hugs to all

Suz