Re: Read if you want it may help you all

[Guest guest]

great Jeff

dont know what i would do without B12

been living on it

mira

On Saturday, Aug 23, 2003, at 22:35 US/Central, Jeff wrote:

>

> Does Vitamin B12 Have a Positive Effect on Multiple Sclerosis?

> By: Tori Mackson

>

> Introduction

>

> Could there be a relationship between vitamin B12 and the treatment

> of Multiple Sclerosis (MS)?

>

> The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), October 23,

> 1991 published an article titled MS associated with vitamin B12

> deficiency (1). Three months later, The American Family Physician

> Journal printed an article with the same title and additional support

> (2). The following year JAMA published another similar article

> titled Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis (3). Researchers

> and authors of these articles believe there is a link between MS and

> vitamin B12 deficiency.

>

> As noted in the referenced articles a correlation between MS and

> vitamin deficiency may have some merit in possible treatment for MS

> patients.

>

> What Is Multiple Sclerosis?

>

> Multiple sclerosis is a disorder of the central nervous system marked

> by decreased nerve function with initial inflammation of the

> protective myelin nerve covering and eventual scarring. Type and

> severity of symptoms vary widely and may progress into episodes of

> crisis alternating with episodes of remission (4). There are two

> forms of the disease currently noted. The exacerbating remission

> form is one in which the disease presents itself with an initial

> attack of symptoms and is followed by partial or complete remission.

> The chronic progressive form of the disease progresses quickly and

> does not show signs of remission. The symptoms MS patients may

> experience include: blurred vision, muscle weakness and spasticity,

> difficulty walking, poor coordination, bladder problems, numbness,

> and fatigue. Between the ages of 20 and 40 is when an MS patient is

> most likely to have his/her first attack (5). MS is diagnosed using

> a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) scan of the brain (6).

>

> Although the cause of MS isn't known for sure, scientists generally

> assume that MS is an autoimmune disease in which the immune system

> attacks the body's own myelin cells (5). The myelin is a fatty

> sheath that insulates the nerve fibers allowing impulses to be sent

> between the brain, the spinal cord, and the body. There is a thought

> that possibly a toxin or virus triggers this autoimmune response in

> susceptible people. The susceptibility factor is not equal among the

> population. Studies suggest that genetics, geographical location,

> and high dietary intake of saturated fat are among the possible

> theories of who may be at greater risk for acquiring this disease

> (6). These are some common factors identified in people who have been

> diagnosed with MS. However, there is no research at this time that

> shows that genetics, geographical location and high dietary fat

> intake actually increase the chance of a person being diagnosed with

> this disease.

>

>

>

>

>

> What is vitamin B12 (Cobalamine)?

>

> Vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin that contains the essential

> mineral element of cobalt. B12 works in conjunction with folic acid

> in numerous biological processes including the synthesis of DNA,

> choline, red blood cells, and the myelin sheath that surrounds nerve

> cells. Vitamin B12 is an essential element for effective metabolism

> of carbohydrates, protein, and fat in the body (7).

>

> Symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency

>

> Deficiency symptoms manifest as changes in the nervous system such as

> soreness and weakness in the legs and arms, diminished reflex

> response and sensory perception, memory loss, weakness and fatigue,

> difficulty walking and speaking, jerking of limbs, disorientation,

> and impaired touch or pain perception. These symptoms occur in

> varying degrees and combinations (8). " Vitamin B12 deficiency due to

> dietary intake is rare, and 95% of B12 deficiencies seen in the

> United States are due to inadequate absorption capabilities " (9). A

> true B12 deficiency is noted when the serum B12 level is 150mol/L or

> below (10).

>

> The Department of Neurology, Cleveland Ohio studied serum vitamin B12

> deficiency in MS patients (12). Methods of the study: serum vitamin

> B12 and folate levels were determined in 208 consecutively evaluated

> patients seen in the outpatient MS clinic setting during a 7-month

> period. Blood samples were obtained for 165 of the 208 patients.

> One hundred twenty-five patients had clinically defined MS, thirty-

> one had probable MS, and nine had idiopathic myelopathy. Serum

> methylmalonic acid (MMA) and homocysteine (HCY) concentrations, which

> rise in biologically severe vitamin B12 deficiency, were subsequently

> determined in all patients whose vitamin B12 levels were lower than

> 301 pg/ml. Results: A vitamin B12 level lower than 301 pg/ml was

> found in 32 of 156 patients with either clinically defined MS or

> clinically probable MS but in none with of the patients with

> idiopathic myelopathy. Elevated serum methylmelonic acid or

> homocysteine levels were found in seven of the 32 patients with

> either clinically defined MS or clinically probable MS, six of whom

> had elevated homocysteine levels and one of whom had elevated

> homocysteine and methylmalonic levels. Conclusion: 32 (19.4%) of the

> 165 patients with MS and idiopathic myelopathy had vitamin B12 levels

> less than 301 pg/ml, only seven (4.2%) of the 165 had elevated

> methylmelonic acid or homocysteine levels. The frequency of

> biologically severe vitamin B12 deficiency in these patients with MS

> and idiopathic myelopathy was very low (12).

>

>

> What is the recommended dietary allowance for vitamin B12?

>

> The recommended dietary allowance of vitamin B12 in people eleven

> years and older is 2.0 micrograms per day. Vitamin B12 is found in

> many food sources, which include liver, eggs, fish, cheese, and

> meat. This vitamin can also be supplemented into the diet in the

> form of a pill or an injection. (Refer to table 1 for specific

> vitamin B12 values of selected food items).

>

> Food Sources Amount Vitamin B12 in Micrograms per

> 3 1/2 oz

> Liver, lamb 104

> Blue cheese 1.4

> Clams 98

> Haddock 1.3

> Liver, beef 80

> Flounder 1.2

> Kidneys, lamb 63

> Scallops 1

> Liver, calf 60

> Cheddar Cheese 1

> Kidneys, beef 31

> Cottage Cheese 1

> Liver, chicken 25

> Mozzarella cheese 1

> Oysters 18

> Halibut 1

> Sardines 17

> Perch, filets 1

> Trout 5

> Swordfish 1

> Table 1: Vitamin B12 content of selected foods, in micrograms per 3½

> oz. serving (4).

>

>

> Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis

>

> The Multiple Sclerosis Disease Prevention newsletter investigates B12

> metabolism in patients with MS (13). Studies reported in this

> newsletter presented a significant number of people with MS have some

> degree of malabsorption, which may be a contributing factor in a B12

> deficiency (13). Malabsorption is an important factor since it can

> cause multiple sub clinical nutrient deficiencies even when dietary

> intake is carefully executed.

>

> Ten subjects (seven women and three men) from 27-51 years of age were

> identified at the onset of the neurologic disease, and all presented

> with the typical clinical features of MS. Magnetic imaging performed

> in seven of the patients revealed multiple lesions in the white

> matter consistent with MS. Vitamin B12 deficiency, although unusual

> in patients under 40, was present before this age in eight of the

> patients. Results of electromyograms revealed no peripheral

> myopathy, although this is the most common neurologic manifestation

> of a vitamin B12 deficiency. Nine of the patients had serum vitamin

> B12 levels below 150 pmol per L. The cause of the deficiency was

> unknown in most of the patients and only two of the subjects had

> pernicious anemia (2).

> The results of this study indicated a correlation between MS and a

> vitamin B12 deficiency. Although the cause of the B12 deficiency was

> unknown, nine of the ten participants presented with both MS and a

> vitamin B12 deficiency. The authors of this study conclude there may

> be an association between vitamin B12 deficiency and MS that is more

> than coincidental. Further studies of vitamin B12 metabolism,

> binding and transport in patients with MS are indicated (2).

>

> A 1993 study by Neuro-Communication Research Labs recognizes an

> association between vitamin B12 metabolism and the pathogenesis of MS

> (11). Supplementation with vitamin B12 did not reverse the

> associated macrocytic anemia nor did the neurological deficits of MS

> improve following supplementation with vitamin B12. It has been

> suggested that vitamin B12 deficiency may render the patient more

> vulnerable to the putative viral and/or immunologic mechanisms widely

> suspected in MS (11).

>

> Neuro-Communication Research Labs studied forty-five MS patients

> whose serum vitamin B12 levels were significantly lower in those

> patients who experienced onset of neurological symptoms prior to age

> 18 (n=10). Serum vitamin B12 levels were checked at the onset of the

> disease to determine if the subjects were deficient in the vitamin in

> question. Specific numbers of serum vitamin B12 levels were not

> stated in the study it was only noted that the subjects (n=45) all

> had low serum vitamin B12 levels, and the patients who were diagnosed

> before age 18 (n=10) had significantly lower B12 levels in their

> blood than those diagnosed after age 18 (n=35). These findings

> suggest a specific association between the timing of onset of first

> neurological symptoms of MS and vitamin B12 metabolism (8). The

> authors of this study conclude " since vitamin B12 is required for the

> formation of myelin and for immune mechanisms, it is proposed that

> its deficiency in MS is of critical pathogenic significance " (8).

>

>

> Discussion

>

> The studies available for the supplementation of vitamin B12 with

> patients who have MS represent a total number of instances that is

> too small to be of statistical significance. The studies reviewed

> did not have any healthy control groups as part of the research. In

> the study presented by the Multiple Sclerosis Disease Prevention

> Newsletter, the researchers reported that malabsorption in MS

> patients is a contributing factor in having a vitamin B12

> deficiency. This study did not present any specific figures and

> therefore, did not present any statistical evidence that

> malabsorption was the reason for patients with MS having a vitamin

> B12 deficiency. Furthermore, other possible causes of the

> abnormalities of MS were not controlled for in the studies

> presented. Although there is some good preliminary research

> presented on the relation between MS and a vitamin B12 deficiency,

> each study presented with some significant flaws for which further

> investigation is needed to determine if there is actually a

> relationship between vitamin B12 and the treatment of MS.

>

> Conclusion

>

> The literature reviewed on the effect of vitamin supplementation on

> MS was positive in the sense that some of the research provides

> evidence that could possibly help slow the progression and/or onset

> of the disease. However, none of the articles touched on the fact

> that this disease affects every patient differently. The articles

> also did not discuss in any detail if this method of treatment is

> better for people who suffer from the chronic progressive form or the

> exacerbation remission form of the disease. The key to understanding

> the studies and theories of MS is to remember that at this point the

> disease is from unknown etiology and the literature that is published

> is based on small studies that have not been carried out for long

> periods of time. The ideas of doctors and theorists have been to

> connect possible solutions without really knowing the implications

> for the disease itself. As research and technology continues to

> progress, hopefully we will have stronger evidence to either support

> or reject the theory of vitamin supplementation having a positive

> effect of MS.

>

> References:

>

> 1. Green, R. Ms associated with vitamin B12 deficiency. The

> Journal of the American

> Medical Association, JAMA,Oct 23, 1991. v266 n16 p2210(1).

>

> 2. Werbach, M. Multilple sclerosis and vitamin B12 deficiency.

> American Family

> Physician, Dec 1991 v44 n6 p2168.

>

> 3. White, H. Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis. The

> Journal of the

> American Medical Association, JAMA, Oct 7, 1992. v268 n13 p1656(1).

>

> 4. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepage/17089.htm.

> Medical

> Encyclopedia Multiple Sclerosis. October 3, 2001.

>

> 5. Reynolds EH. Multiple sclerosis and vitamin B12 metabolism.

> J Neuroimmunol.

> 1992; 40:225-230.

>

>

>

> 6. Lauer K. The risk of multiple sclerosis in the U.S.A. in

> relation to sociogeographic

> features: a factor-analytic study. J Clinical Epidemiol. 1994; 47:43-

> 48.

>

>

> 7. Kirschmann, G Nutrition Almanac 4th ed. New York: McGraw Hill,

> 1996.

>

> 8. Murray, M. Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements. Rocklin,

> CA: Prima Publishing, 1996.

>

> 9. Reynolds, E. Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis.

> The Journal of the American Medical Association, JAMA, 1992;49(649-

> 52).

>

> 10. Kuzminski, A. et al.1998. Effective treatment of cobalamin

> deficiency with oral

> cobalamin. Blood 92:1191-98.

>

> 11. Sandyk, R. Vitamin B12 and its relationship to age of onset of

> multiple sclerosis.

> J Neurosci. 1993; 71(1-4): 93-9.

>

> 12. Goodkin, D. Serum vitamin B12 deficiency is uncommon in multiple

> sclerosis. Arch

> Neurol 1994 Nov; 51(11):1110-4.

>

> 13. Recommended Dietary Allowances 10th ed. Washington, DC: National

> Academy

> Press, 1989.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> From: " Jeff " <jeffalan19556@...>

>

Does Vitamin B12 Have a Positive Effect on Multiple Sclerosis?

By: Tori Mackson

May be true for some, but went to Dr. for a year getting B-12 shots and symptoms

continued.

Margie

>

>

Does Vitamin B12 Have a Positive Effect on Multiple Sclerosis?

By: Tori Mackson

Introduction

Could there be a relationship between vitamin B12 and the treatment

of Multiple Sclerosis (MS)?

The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), October 23,

1991 published an article titled MS associated with vitamin B12

deficiency (1). Three months later, The American Family Physician

Journal printed an article with the same title and additional support

(2). The following year JAMA published another similar article

titled Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis (3). Researchers

and authors of these articles believe there is a link between MS and

vitamin B12 deficiency.

As noted in the referenced articles a correlation between MS and

vitamin deficiency may have some merit in possible treatment for MS

patients.

What Is Multiple Sclerosis?

Multiple sclerosis is a disorder of the central nervous system marked

by decreased nerve function with initial inflammation of the

protective myelin nerve covering and eventual scarring. Type and

severity of symptoms vary widely and may progress into episodes of

crisis alternating with episodes of remission (4). There are two

forms of the disease currently noted. The exacerbating remission

form is one in which the disease presents itself with an initial

attack of symptoms and is followed by partial or complete remission.

The chronic progressive form of the disease progresses quickly and

does not show signs of remission. The symptoms MS patients may

experience include: blurred vision, muscle weakness and spasticity,

difficulty walking, poor coordination, bladder problems, numbness,

and fatigue. Between the ages of 20 and 40 is when an MS patient is

most likely to have his/her first attack (5). MS is diagnosed using

a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) scan of the brain (6).

Although the cause of MS isn't known for sure, scientists generally

assume that MS is an autoimmune disease in which the immune system

attacks the body's own myelin cells (5). The myelin is a fatty

sheath that insulates the nerve fibers allowing impulses to be sent

between the brain, the spinal cord, and the body. There is a thought

that possibly a toxin or virus triggers this autoimmune response in

susceptible people. The susceptibility factor is not equal among the

population. Studies suggest that genetics, geographical location,

and high dietary intake of saturated fat are among the possible

theories of who may be at greater risk for acquiring this disease

(6). These are some common factors identified in people who have been

diagnosed with MS. However, there is no research at this time that

shows that genetics, geographical location and high dietary fat

intake actually increase the chance of a person being diagnosed with

this disease.

What is vitamin B12 (Cobalamine)?

Vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin that contains the essential

mineral element of cobalt. B12 works in conjunction with folic acid

in numerous biological processes including the synthesis of DNA,

choline, red blood cells, and the myelin sheath that surrounds nerve

cells. Vitamin B12 is an essential element for effective metabolism

of carbohydrates, protein, and fat in the body (7).

Symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency

Deficiency symptoms manifest as changes in the nervous system such as

soreness and weakness in the legs and arms, diminished reflex

response and sensory perception, memory loss, weakness and fatigue,

difficulty walking and speaking, jerking of limbs, disorientation,

and impaired touch or pain perception. These symptoms occur in

varying degrees and combinations (8). " Vitamin B12 deficiency due to

dietary intake is rare, and 95% of B12 deficiencies seen in the

United States are due to inadequate absorption capabilities " (9). A

true B12 deficiency is noted when the serum B12 level is 150mol/L or

below (10).

The Department of Neurology, Cleveland Ohio studied serum vitamin B12

deficiency in MS patients (12). Methods of the study: serum vitamin

B12 and folate levels were determined in 208 consecutively evaluated

patients seen in the outpatient MS clinic setting during a 7-month

period. Blood samples were obtained for 165 of the 208 patients.

One hundred twenty-five patients had clinically defined MS, thirty-

one had probable MS, and nine had idiopathic myelopathy. Serum

methylmalonic acid (MMA) and homocysteine (HCY) concentrations, which

rise in biologically severe vitamin B12 deficiency, were subsequently

determined in all patients whose vitamin B12 levels were lower than

301 pg/ml. Results: A vitamin B12 level lower than 301 pg/ml was

found in 32 of 156 patients with either clinically defined MS or

clinically probable MS but in none with of the patients with

idiopathic myelopathy. Elevated serum methylmelonic acid or

homocysteine levels were found in seven of the 32 patients with

either clinically defined MS or clinically probable MS, six of whom

had elevated homocysteine levels and one of whom had elevated

homocysteine and methylmalonic levels. Conclusion: 32 (19.4%) of the

165 patients with MS and idiopathic myelopathy had vitamin B12 levels

less than 301 pg/ml, only seven (4.2%) of the 165 had elevated

methylmelonic acid or homocysteine levels. The frequency of

biologically severe vitamin B12 deficiency in these patients with MS

and idiopathic myelopathy was very low (12).

What is the recommended dietary allowance for vitamin B12?

The recommended dietary allowance of vitamin B12 in people eleven

years and older is 2.0 micrograms per day. Vitamin B12 is found in

many food sources, which include liver, eggs, fish, cheese, and

meat. This vitamin can also be supplemented into the diet in the

form of a pill or an injection. (Refer to table 1 for specific

vitamin B12 values of selected food items).

Food Sources Amount Vitamin B12 in Micrograms per

3 1/2 oz

Liver, lamb 104

Blue cheese 1.4

Clams 98

Haddock 1.3

Liver, beef 80

Flounder 1.2

Kidneys, lamb 63

Scallops 1

Liver, calf 60

Cheddar Cheese 1

Kidneys, beef 31

Cottage Cheese 1

Liver, chicken 25

Mozzarella cheese 1

Oysters 18

Halibut 1

Sardines 17

Perch, filets 1

Trout 5

Swordfish 1

Table 1: Vitamin B12 content of selected foods, in micrograms per 3½

oz. serving (4).

Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis

The Multiple Sclerosis Disease Prevention newsletter investigates B12

metabolism in patients with MS (13). Studies reported in this

newsletter presented a significant number of people with MS have some

degree of malabsorption, which may be a contributing factor in a B12

deficiency (13). Malabsorption is an important factor since it can

cause multiple sub clinical nutrient deficiencies even when dietary

intake is carefully executed.

Ten subjects (seven women and three men) from 27-51 years of age were

identified at the onset of the neurologic disease, and all presented

with the typical clinical features of MS. Magnetic imaging performed

in seven of the patients revealed multiple lesions in the white

matter consistent with MS. Vitamin B12 deficiency, although unusual

in patients under 40, was present before this age in eight of the

patients. Results of electromyograms revealed no peripheral

myopathy, although this is the most common neurologic manifestation

of a vitamin B12 deficiency. Nine of the patients had serum vitamin

B12 levels below 150 pmol per L. The cause of the deficiency was

unknown in most of the patients and only two of the subjects had

pernicious anemia (2).

The results of this study indicated a correlation between MS and a

vitamin B12 deficiency. Although the cause of the B12 deficiency was

unknown, nine of the ten participants presented with both MS and a

vitamin B12 deficiency. The authors of this study conclude there may

be an association between vitamin B12 deficiency and MS that is more

than coincidental. Further studies of vitamin B12 metabolism,

binding and transport in patients with MS are indicated (2).

A 1993 study by Neuro-Communication Research Labs recognizes an

association between vitamin B12 metabolism and the pathogenesis of MS

(11). Supplementation with vitamin B12 did not reverse the

associated macrocytic anemia nor did the neurological deficits of MS

improve following supplementation with vitamin B12. It has been

suggested that vitamin B12 deficiency may render the patient more

vulnerable to the putative viral and/or immunologic mechanisms widely

suspected in MS (11).

Neuro-Communication Research Labs studied forty-five MS patients

whose serum vitamin B12 levels were significantly lower in those

patients who experienced onset of neurological symptoms prior to age

18 (n=10). Serum vitamin B12 levels were checked at the onset of the

disease to determine if the subjects were deficient in the vitamin in

question. Specific numbers of serum vitamin B12 levels were not

stated in the study it was only noted that the subjects (n=45) all

had low serum vitamin B12 levels, and the patients who were diagnosed

before age 18 (n=10) had significantly lower B12 levels in their

blood than those diagnosed after age 18 (n=35). These findings

suggest a specific association between the timing of onset of first

neurological symptoms of MS and vitamin B12 metabolism (8). The

authors of this study conclude " since vitamin B12 is required for the

formation of myelin and for immune mechanisms, it is proposed that

its deficiency in MS is of critical pathogenic significance " (8).

Discussion

The studies available for the supplementation of vitamin B12 with

patients who have MS represent a total number of instances that is

too small to be of statistical significance. The studies reviewed

did not have any healthy control groups as part of the research. In

the study presented by the Multiple Sclerosis Disease Prevention

Newsletter, the researchers reported that malabsorption in MS

patients is a contributing factor in having a vitamin B12

deficiency. This study did not present any specific figures and

therefore, did not present any statistical evidence that

malabsorption was the reason for patients with MS having a vitamin

B12 deficiency. Furthermore, other possible causes of the

abnormalities of MS were not controlled for in the studies

presented. Although there is some good preliminary research

presented on the relation between MS and a vitamin B12 deficiency,

each study presented with some significant flaws for which further

investigation is needed to determine if there is actually a

relationship between vitamin B12 and the treatment of MS.

Conclusion

The literature reviewed on the effect of vitamin supplementation on

MS was positive in the sense that some of the research provides

evidence that could possibly help slow the progression and/or onset

of the disease. However, none of the articles touched on the fact

that this disease affects every patient differently. The articles

also did not discuss in any detail if this method of treatment is

better for people who suffer from the chronic progressive form or the

exacerbation remission form of the disease. The key to understanding

the studies and theories of MS is to remember that at this point the

disease is from unknown etiology and the literature that is published

is based on small studies that have not been carried out for long

periods of time. The ideas of doctors and theorists have been to

connect possible solutions without really knowing the implications

for the disease itself. As research and technology continues to

progress, hopefully we will have stronger evidence to either support

or reject the theory of vitamin supplementation having a positive

effect of MS.

References:

1. Green, R. Ms associated with vitamin B12 deficiency. The

Journal of the American

Medical Association, JAMA,Oct 23, 1991. v266 n16 p2210(1).

2. Werbach, M. Multilple sclerosis and vitamin B12 deficiency.

American Family

Physician, Dec 1991 v44 n6 p2168.

3. White, H. Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis. The

Journal of the

American Medical Association, JAMA, Oct 7, 1992. v268 n13 p1656(1).

4. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepage/17089.htm.

Medical

Encyclopedia Multiple Sclerosis. October 3, 2001.

5. Reynolds EH. Multiple sclerosis and vitamin B12 metabolism.

J Neuroimmunol.

1992; 40:225-230.

6. Lauer K. The risk of multiple sclerosis in the U.S.A. in

relation to sociogeographic

features: a factor-analytic study. J Clinical Epidemiol. 1994; 47:43-

48.

7. Kirschmann, G Nutrition Almanac 4th ed. New York: McGraw Hill,

1996.

8. Murray, M. Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements. Rocklin,

CA: Prima Publishing, 1996.

9. Reynolds, E. Vitamin B12 metabolism in multiple sclerosis.

The Journal of the American Medical Association, JAMA, 1992;49(649-

52).

10. Kuzminski, A. et al.1998. Effective treatment of cobalamin

deficiency with oral

cobalamin. Blood 92:1191-98.

11. Sandyk, R. Vitamin B12 and its relationship to age of onset of

multiple sclerosis.

J Neurosci. 1993; 71(1-4): 93-9.

12. Goodkin, D. Serum vitamin B12 deficiency is uncommon in multiple

sclerosis. Arch

Neurol 1994 Nov; 51(11):1110-4.

13. Recommended Dietary Allowances 10th ed. Washington, DC: National

Academy

Press, 1989.

[Guest guest]

Yup. I've been getting monthly B-12 shots for a year and haven't

noticed a difference, though I figure they can't hurt since I'm

vegan.--Martha

[Guest guest]

WHOA MARGIE, DID JEFF SEND YOU A PERSONAL E-MAIL? THAT'S WHAT HE

WAS DOING TO ME FOR AWHILE....I FINALLY GOT HIM TO STOP THAT I HOPE?

PUT HIM IN YOUR BLOCKED SENDERS LIST....THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO

DO. I WONDER IF THERE IS A WAY TO BLOCK HIM HERE? HE IS VERY

INTRUSIVE AND INSULTING.

IF THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE WHO WANT TO HEAR HIS DIATRIBE, LET THEM

GIVE HIM THEIR PERSONAL E-MAIL ADD. AND ASK HIM TO LEAVE US ALONE!!!

IS THERE A WAY WE CAN REPORT HIM TO ABOUT THIS INTRUSION?

CONCERNED....SALLY

Jeff,

What are your credentials? You are now opposing what a team of 4

Neurologists from the Cleveland Clinic and my MS Specialists at the

University of Miami.

You've now insulted me and my intelligence. I don't appreciate

patronization...even from a medical specialist.

Margie

From: Jeff el <jeffalan19556@y...>

Your doctor also would not give you B12 injections.

It was not needed. You must be very low and do you

know what your range is. You should be about 350

[Guest guest]

I agree, he is being an ass, and should be banned.

[Guest guest]

To all fellow LDNers, Please do not waste your time and energy discussing THE JEFF. Just hit delete and ignore. I believe we are feeding him. Nothing , has created more chit chat than he.

FOCUS FOCUS our mission ldn knowledge.

[Guest guest]

Margie, perhaps I am missing something, but why are you upset, I have tried to

go back and read the email, step by step. Why do you feel your " intelligence

was insulted " ?

Perhaps I am the one missing something - but why is everyone so freaked out

about Jeff???? He gives sometimes more information than you want, but then

there is that old delete button. These constant angry emails are

really......enough.

Sorry but this group is getting too hung up on the small stuff, and way too

invested in personalities.

[Guest guest]

Hi, you are missing something. He is writing personal emails and

insulting others. This is unacceptable. He's being a nuisance, at

first I thought like you, but I can see now that what he is doing is

not rigt.

[Guest guest]

HI JM.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT.....ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. WE ARE GIVING WAY TOO MUCH

POWER TO THIS GUY........AND I RE-READ SOME OF MY POSTINGS ON THE

SUBJECT....AND I FOUND THEM, AT THE LEAST, UNKIND, AND AT THE MOST,

UNNECESSARY.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING ME BACK TO REALITY, AND BACK TO THE IMPORTANT

STUFF.....OUR SUPPORT FOR EACH OTHER WITH OUR ILLNESS AND OUR USE OF

LDN TO HELP US STAY WELL.

LOVE TO YOU ALL

SALLY

jmfranken@a... wrote:

These constant angry emails are really......enough.

>

> Sorry but this group is getting too hung up on the small stuff,

and way too invested in personalities.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ann,

It IS in her last post, you can see the reply from this Jeff person

in the string of replies. He emailed me once stating something that

didnt make any sense, showing me that he really isnt paying much

attention to what folks here are telling him. That, to me, clearly

states that he is just trying to annoy everyone. Copying and pasting

those annoyingly long articles from the web kind of confirms what I'm

thinking. :0)

Be Well

(going on 5 months of LDN, and doing great :0)

[Guest guest]

I agree

Jeff has posted some very good points. I also went back to see where

he may have insulted anyone as I have saved all Jeff's emails.

I do not see where he insulted us.

I do not see why we can't just delete when we don't want to read

something.

Plus anyone who has MS would know making a web site to post all this

takes a lot of time and thinking and things we who have MS can't do.

I also have other diseases not just MS and auto immune problems and

some of his posts are very interesting.

It is LDN web site true and giving us tips on how to improve our bodies

at times when we need a boost is related to LDN.

For me its easier to read his emails then to go to the websites that

you do post and read there. There is a lot I want to read and at times

wish a summary of what would be found at the website you do post would

be amazing.

I have a problem going and finding things I keep getting lost on the

net and where I saw something. Call me dumb but its easier to read an

email than to go out and search.

I can also delete as I have many of the things I did not want to read.

Just my two cents too.

I am waiting to get on to LDN and need my body to be strong enough to

take LDN and some of the advice from Jeff and others have let me to go

in some great directions to get to LDN.

I hope you all agree with me I'd much rather delete then go find search

and remember where I may have seen something and what its related to.

Just an opinion that you can delete too.

Mira

On Monday, Aug 25, 2003, at 12:50 US/Central, jmfranken@... wrote:

> Margie, perhaps I am missing something, but why are you upset, I have

> tried to go back and read the email, step by step. Why do you feel

> your " intelligence was insulted " ?

>

> Perhaps I am the one missing something - but why is everyone so

> freaked out about Jeff???? He gives sometimes more information than

> you want, but then there is that old delete button. These constant

> angry emails are really......enough.

>

> Sorry but this group is getting too hung up on the small stuff, and

> way too invested in personalities.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mira, I agree with the fact that Jeff might be bringing up some

good information, but here's the problem that I see. In the first

place, for the most part Jeff is 'stealing' information from the web.

There are copyright laws, which I'm sure are attached to most of the

posts that he is using. He makes no references to where he got this

information, so how do we know that what he is posting is accurate,

if we dont even know where he got it. Do you believe everything you

read? Someone could actually trace where their information is going,

and I would imagine that they would be a little perturbed by seeing

that their hard work is for nothing. I see a risk of THIS forum being

scrutinized. This is why a simple link is much better.

You know, regardless of whether Jeff knows this or not, I think

what he is doing is done out of spite. Folks posted that they didnt

like him copying and pasting 'long' posts. So how does he reply? by

copying and pasting some more 'long' posts. I dont even think he

really knows what he is posting. This looks like a nasty pattern

developing from him. He's obviously upset about something, but

instead of asking for help or support, he makes it worse. Only 'Jeff'

can fix it.

[Guest guest]

Magnesium helps muscle pain if that is the kind of pain your talking

about.

I know nothing helps knuckles though.

I use magnesium and it helps a lot.

Mira

On Monday, Aug 25, 2003, at 16:32 US/Central, capp3735@...

wrote:

>>

>> Yes, Sally, Jeff e-mailed me but didn't send it to the group also, so

>> I did.

> How can you block his addy? I want to do it.

>

> Also, does LDN help with any of the MS pain? I suffer chronic pain but

> refuse to do narcotics. I have a high pain threshold but it would be

> nice if some of it went away!

>

> Margie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mira, Totally agree with you. Well said.

----- Original Message -----

From: <wordww@...>

<jmfranken@...>

Cc: <capp3735@...>; <jeffalan19556@...>;

<low dose naltrexone >

Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 4:52 AM

Subject: Re: [low dose naltrexone] Read if you want it may help you all

> I agree

> Jeff has posted some very good points. I also went back to see where

> he may have insulted anyone as I have saved all Jeff's emails.

> I do not see where he insulted us.

> I do not see why we can't just delete when we don't want to read

> something.

> Plus anyone who has MS would know making a web site to post all this

> takes a lot of time and thinking and things we who have MS can't do.

> I also have other diseases not just MS and auto immune problems and

> some of his posts are very interesting.

> It is LDN web site true and giving us tips on how to improve our bodies

> at times when we need a boost is related to LDN.

> For me its easier to read his emails then to go to the websites that

> you do post and read there. There is a lot I want to read and at times

> wish a summary of what would be found at the website you do post would

> be amazing.

> I have a problem going and finding things I keep getting lost on the

> net and where I saw something. Call me dumb but its easier to read an

> email than to go out and search.

> I can also delete as I have many of the things I did not want to read.

> Just my two cents too.

> I am waiting to get on to LDN and need my body to be strong enough to

> take LDN and some of the advice from Jeff and others have let me to go

> in some great directions to get to LDN.

> I hope you all agree with me I'd much rather delete then go find search

> and remember where I may have seen something and what its related to.

> Just an opinion that you can delete too.

> Mira

>

>

> On Monday, Aug 25, 2003, at 12:50 US/Central, jmfranken@... wrote:

>

> > Margie, perhaps I am missing something, but why are you upset, I have

> > tried to go back and read the email, step by step. Why do you feel

> > your " intelligence was insulted " ?

> >

> > Perhaps I am the one missing something - but why is everyone so

> > freaked out about Jeff???? He gives sometimes more information than

> > you want, but then there is that old delete button. These constant

> > angry emails are really......enough.

> >

> > Sorry but this group is getting too hung up on the small stuff, and

> > way too invested in personalities.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

hi margie,

Ihave not been bothered with extreme pain....but some of the others

here have said that they could stop taking their pain killers after

LDN. So I presume it does.

I just have the usual aches and pains from aging with MS (62)...lol

It would be nice of some of the others here, who have been in pain,

would respond to you also.

Hugs, Sally

> >

> >Yes, Sally, Jeff e-mailed me but didn't send it to the group

also, so I did.

> How can you block his addy? I want to do it.

>

> Also, does LDN help with any of the MS pain? I suffer chronic pain

but refuse to do narcotics. I have a high pain threshold but it

would be nice if some of it went away!

>

> Margie