Larry King Live

October 27, 2007

What an awesome family!!! That is awesome how you and your son are a perfect match!!! Did you share this news (that you posted) with your son? I bet he would feel so proud to know this, and relate it to: How he like numbers, and accounts use numbers too (explain account) & we use numbers in math, than share your family story. I bet he would love to know this. Have you tried working with him with the numbers? there are math sites that have games with numbers. I bet he would like that. there are so many ways to work with numbers..This seems like a strength for your son, and then to find out your a math whiz too. awesome!!! Now this sounds like a good family tradition!! RoseDee DiMemmo <craftychick70@...> wrote: its actually a family tradition...my mother is an accountant, my father was an accountant, my stepfather was an acccountant, one grandfather was a professor at the london college of economics, the other grandfather was an actuary, my aunt had a phd in math. did i mention that we all lack social skills?Rose <beachbodytan2002 > wrote: amazing!!! *smile*Dee DiMemmo <craftychick70 > wrote: i have to laugh because i was an accountant! and a math whiz too!Rose <beachbodytan2002 > wrote: Math wiz and maybe a future accountant, they make good money and well neededDee DiMemmo <craftychick70 > wrote: hugs heidi!! i know how you feel. there are days when i think that saber was diagnosed because he was so different and it was a convenient way to placate his birth parents. he can be so "normal" sometimes, and then you put him next to a "normal" child and you realize just how different he really is. its like a punch in the gut. and when i think about all this kiddo has been thru in 5 years, it breaks my heart. it just compounds his diagnosis with another layer...there are days

when i wish he would just draw a picture of something other than a letter or number. then there are days when i realize that he is a math whiz, so it all balances out i guess. Heidi Guarino <heidi.guarinogmail> wrote: How do you get past that? I think I feel it every day. Whenever he has a good day I'm certain this is all behind us. Then, he'll have a tantrum or insist on talking like Curious , refuse to get dressed, or talk endlessly about the same thing for hours and I'll realize that I'm just kidding myself. We are doin everything in our power to help him -- we've pulled every string we have to get him a tutor on weekends, and to place him in a full-day integrated preschool program focused on social interactions. He's getting speech and occupational therapy twice a week, and I swear somedays it really seems like lights are being

turned on in his head. But then there are other days that make me just want to cry. I think as a parent I've become accustomed to being able to "fix" things. I can put a band-aid on a scraped knee, put batteries in toys when they die, give medicine to my kids when they're sick. I can take them places, buy them things, sing them to sleep, make them giggle when they're sad and calm them down when they're going crazy. But THIS.... I can't fix this and it's really, really hard for me to accept that. You should all know that I'm being more honest on this listserve than I've been with anyone... including my husband. Damn, that's really sad. On 10/26/07, Donna B <donnabzygmail> wrote: Crazy? No way -- we all know our own kids the best, and we have to make individual choices based on that. You'll find that on this list, we often have different approaches but there's respect for that, so even if someone did think you were crazy (which I doubt anyone would lol) who cares. Do what's right for your son, and you know best what that is. And denial is a tough thing. I think everyone goes through a certain phase of it. My husband had it bad, like a lot of dads do. Me, I jumped in with both feet to get help, but I think part of me hoped throughout the last almost 3 years that there was a mistake with his dx -- I know there's something going on there, so I've did the 'well, maybe...' a few times, but that just means that when he's having a bad day, my stomach goes bam, and I think " he really DOES have autism." It's so clear, but as a parent, I think we still have those moments of

sadness/denial about it. Heidi Guarino wrote: the advice came from my son's tutor who said she works with a 12 year old who claims he can't learn to read "becasue he's autistic." Our hope is to have Owen in a good place emotionally and socially by the time he's old enough to notice and never have to make a big deal out of this to him. could be this is part our problem and our unwillingness to accept that this is a "forever" thing. I don't know... all I know is that I don't want my son to ever think there's something wrong with him, or try to use it as an excuse to get out of achieving at his fullest potential. Do folks think I'm crazy? I've only been on this group for a couple of days and I feel like I've learned a lot from all of you... I think I hadn't realized just how much I';vebeen in denial about this and

how much it would help to have someone to talk to. On 10/26/07, and/or Robin Lemke <jrisjs > wrote: Wow....we've never really been told what to do,,,,,but try to look at it kind of like how we deal with telling our adopted daughter that she is adopted. It's been a part of all of our vocabularies since day 1. AS and ADHD and Tourettes and adoption. No one blinks twice when the words come up. It's simply a part of our family. I didn't want any of our kids to one day say, "What? What's that?" and wonder why they weren't told. Who knows. I think it's a very

personal thing. I do think that no matter what your child "has".....it's gonna be a natural thing to try to "use it" at some point. When Ian has brought up AS and has tried to use it,,,,,,we've laughed it off and said, "good try". Robin Heidi Guarino <heidi.guarinogmail> wrote: Donna, We were told the opposite -- to never, ever tell our 4-year-old son that he's been diagnosed with anything. That if we told him, someday down the line he woudl learn that he could use it as a crutch. On 10/26/07, Donna B <donnabzygmail> wrote: A behavioral therapist told us about 2 years ago that we should tell our son he's different, so when others start noticing it and treating him differently, he'd have a reason why, and it wouldn't be as hurtful. Our way? "You're a high-maintenance dude!" We say it with a smile and a laugh, and if he's having a bad day, we joke about how he's being even more high-maintenance. Now, he'll say "That's because I'm high-maintenance!" A couple of times now, if he sees others having a bad day, he'll say "They must be high-maintenance, too." It's helped his understanding of others because he can relate. Not a cure-all, but it's definitely helped! Toni wrote: If your family members are telling you not to come

around.. I wouldn't . They are missing a blessing. They are closed minded, they are pitiful (sorry). I understand your hurt. I hate to see my kids with other kids because that is when it is so obvious they are different. But, you know what, Debbie, it doesn't bother my kids to be different, they are proud.. they don't want to be pedestrian (their words) and boring and mundane.. to them we are the weird ones who ask about somebody's day and don't really care if they answer or not.. it's a nicety... CHIN up girl, I bet it doesn't bother your son (or mine) as nearly as their treatment bothers us.By the way, my boys are 19 and they do get it, they just don't care. They said the kids at school all drank, smoked, did drugs, had sex etc and that they and one other boy were the only virgins and they didn't WANT to be like the rest of the kids. Try to concentrate on HIS positives just for today and you'll feel better... My pdoc told me when I first started talking to him

about the boys... Look at every picture you see of Einstein, his hair is all over his head, he had a 'keeper', his clothes were unkempt, and yet he was brilliant and made a difference. Your boys will find their niche and make a difference too... I understand feeling low... I have felt like I was on a treadmill getting nowhere fast..sat in my room and cried... but it will get better... Toni ( ) Re: Larry King Live I don't think I can agree with that statement. I know we all have our quirks and weaknesses, but my child cannot

connect with his peers. How it must be to feel like an outsider amongst your peers I cannot imagine. That is why my heart breaks, that is why I personally would not have another child. I can't take the pain of seeing my son try to connect and get frustrated and anxious and then aggressive because he is hurt and angry that he can't be successful with connecting to other kids. He doesn't even know why he can't connect because he is 7 and he doesn't get it yet. There are no play dates, no friends, even my family members are telling us not to come around. It is so hard. Sorry if I am negative but I guess we all have our highs and lows and I am low right now.Debbie __________________________________________________

October 27, 2007

Amen to the "pitocin" theory!!!! I got it with all of mine. RobinDee DiMemmo <craftychick70@...> wrote: what about autistic kids who did not receive the vaccine? What about those who were autistic long before vaccinations became common? there probably is a long laundry list of things that can cause autism, just like there is a laundry list of things that cause diabetes or heart disease or any other disease. maybe with the toxin theory there's a kernel of truth to it-kids may be more

sensitive to these toxins and it might cause a reaction. but its just as true to say pitocin causes autism because there is anectodal evidence that a number of autistic children have mothers that were given pitocinRoxanna <madideaszoominternet (DOT) net> wrote: You don't have to prove there isn't, you have to prove there is. But you said it was a common cause of autism and it's not proven that it is even "A" cause of autism, let alone the common cause. Even if people feel like a vaccine caused autism, it doesn't mean it's any more true. I don't think it is widely accepted either. There is just a certain segment of people who do and like to push their theories. I personally get upset that people want to hyper focus on this one thing and not look around at

other possible causes. I think it will slow down the search for answers. It's fine to consider this option, IMO, but not at the expense of any other. RoxannaAutism Happens Re: ( ) Larry King Live I agreed with Dr. Kartzinel -- my thoughts are that these kids do have some broken mechanisms in their body, things that don't work right for one way or another. But, it may be because I see my son have a ton of intestinal issues, rashes, aches, etc., that can't be explained, and many, many children on the spectrum face similar issues. Dr. Kartzinel is an amazing man, very much on our side, so I'd have a hard time feeling bad about the fact he's getting awareness out there. Honestly, personally? I don't get caught up in the semantics. My son has issues, and I don't care if he's referred to as autistic, which is the peeve I have with Holly -Peete; she can feel that way about her son, but to say that it's the wrong vernacular is misrepresentation, imo. I say my son 'is autistic' sometimes, but I don't say he is

"an autistic." My daughter is epileptic, it's true, it's factual, I can't be bothered by that. It's just words. also never says she 'cured' her son. She says she recovered him. You probably heard her bus analogy -- you get hit by a bus, you'll never be cured, you'll always have aches, pains, scars, but you can recover. The thing with the MMR shot is that it's a huge dose of vaccine on a body that is still growing and the mixture can be dangerous to a child who cannot process the viral/toxic loads as bodies are supposed to. (Which explains why not every child gets autism after having vaccines. Most children can process the loads fine, but toxins increase, the number of children who can't process the increased toxins is growing at a scary epidemic rate.)Be careful to just research the FDA and government sites. It makes sense that they aren't going to show the side-effects, unless they are in small print and hard to find. And a 'trace' of

thimerasol can still be WAY more than a tiny body can process per pound. And last -- Thimerasol was 'recommended' to be phased out in 1999, but because it preserves vaccines for years, those vaccines that weren't yet used stayed on the shelf for years later because they weren't yet expired, so while new ones weren't made, those ones with thimerasol still remained.Thimerasol/vaccines aren't the sole reason for autism, they are just one of the most common ones -- pesticides, medications, etc., there's a lot of toxins out there contributing to it all. Hope that helps!Donna wrote: What is everyone's take on the Larry King Live show with McCarthy and Halle Pete? I was pretty frustrated to hear the docter refer to our kids as "Broken Children" and the other comment was from about curing her son of

Autism. Autism is a neurological disorder that is not tecnically "curable" but is treatable. I was also listening to them talk about how the MMR shot, and the immunitizations were the causes of autism. I went to the FDA website and the MMR has NEVER contained Thimersoal. Also all other immunitizations have phased out the thimersoal starting in 1999, and most of them are free of mercury or never had it. I wanted imput from everyone here, because I feel like you will all give me great imput on what you think. Thanks! Chelle __________________________________________________

October 27, 2007

I don't mind if people want to discuss what they "feel" is the cause of autism but it can't be said as if it's a fact or true when it's not.

RoxannaAutism Happens

Re: ( ) Larry King Live

I agree with it all, I guess.

People "repeating" what they hear or agree with doesn't bother me. I do it....you do it.....we all do it.

If we agree with something and see a similarity or a link.....we tend to go that way.

Doesn't mean we're all gonna see the link or agree.

Since all of the "reasons" are valid,,,,,and we're dealing with the lives our our kids,,,,, it can become a very heated "discussion", though. I see that.

People leaning twd something being more of a cause than something else is a very personal thing and shouldn't be questioned, I don't think. It should be accepted that THAT is the way THEY feel. We should allow it to be "written" without it becoming a back and forth, almost "uncomfortable to read" thread.

Sorry if this offends.........but it's just the way I feel.

Robin <mrathswohldaylemc (DOT) org> wrote:

Hi Roxanna,Thank you for your imput here. I get so frustrated when I hear people just repeat what they hear. My sister-in-law refered to the MMR as the autism shot and said that she is not going to let her son get it. I personally feel that there are many factors that contribute to our kids developing autism. My son had the shots, the protection they give our kids (in my opinion) far outweighed the risks. Also I have a hard time beliving that the shots could have caused the multiple instances of Autism that are in my family. I think there is a genetic factor to be considered. My Grandfather, my 2 uncles, and 3 of my cousins (all male) as well as my son all have AS. There MUST be a genetic link there. That many men having AS can not possibly be a fluke. I know that I am going to give my daughter the shots. I know that I have concerns about the viral load and at our next appointment we will be discussing spreading out her shots more, but I don't ever want to have to see my baby suffer Whooping cough or the measles, rotovirus...the kinds of things that we get shots for as kids. I got all the shots that babies get, plus a ton more at 9 months of age because we moved to the Middle East. I didn't "get" autism from all those shots. I think our kids are wired differently, and that is exactly what I tell my son. We have struggles with behavior, and attitude, and I know a large part of his issues are because he doesn't get social rules, but he is who he is. I wouldn't change him for anything in the world. I really like, love and adore this unique, quirky little man that God gave me. I know that having a child with autism is hard, stressful and emotionally tiring, but when that angel looks up and smiles, it is worth it. Thanks again for the imput! I love all the support that is felt here. >> I'm not sure where your beef is then. People do have choices and are choosing to do their own thing. It's not been taken away from them. So all is good there. > > You said, "So no, I don't have to prove there is a cause if there is a suspicion -- I'm not a researcher, I'm a parent who knows her child and has talked to a ton of others and has researched a lot on a "mom" level." You can have your opinions but you can't say they are facts. That's all I care about here. If you don't feel the need to prove something is true before you decide it's true, that may be something that works for you personally. Not for me, though. I will demand more before I agree something is a fact. Think about it like this - they used to believe that people were witches and burn them at the stake for it. They didn't need fact or proof, they just felt it was true or had suspicions it was true. I mean you can make an example out of anything to make a point. > > Also, I did not say research should focus solely on genetics either. But nothing you've listed so far is a fact as to the cause of autism. > > Roxanna

__________________________________________________

October 27, 2007

I'll echo the " pitocin " . I had it with my son also. His physciatrist

said that pitocin contributes to tramatic birth and that it changes

the way the uterus contracts. In " normal " labor, that uterus

contracts in waves. In a " pitocin " induced labor they uterus

contracts all at once. Imagine a vice being put around your entire

body for a few seconds or longer. Talk about toture. I can't

imagine.....

Me

> what about autistic kids who did not receive the

vaccine? What about those who were autistic long before vaccinations

became common?

> there probably is a long laundry list of things that can cause

autism, just like there is a laundry list of things that cause

diabetes or heart disease or any other disease. maybe with the toxin

theory there's a kernel of truth to it-kids may be more sensitive to

these toxins and it might cause a reaction. but its just as true to

say pitocin causes autism because there is anectodal evidence that a

number of autistic children have mothers that were given pitocin

>

October 27, 2007

both of my 2 boys were pitocin babies. My 7 yr old for about 4 hours

longer than my almost 5 yr old. basically 7 yr old was for about 6.5

hrs, and the 5 yr old was for about 2.5 hrs. No comments about the

length please, older broke my pelvis and no drugs ever worked while i

was having him. lol. anyway, ony my older is aspie, now younger has

some aspie-ish traits, but not even enough to get pdd-nos dx. and he is

very very mild with them in comparison to my older.

zaztooe wrote:

>

> I'll echo the " pitocin " . I had it with my son also. His physciatrist

> said that pitocin contributes to tramatic birth and that it changes

> the way the uterus contracts. In " normal " labor, that uterus

> contracts in waves. In a " pitocin " induced labor they uterus

> contracts all at once. Imagine a vice being put around your entire

> body for a few seconds or longer. Talk about toture. I can't

> imagine.....

>

> Me

>

> > what about autistic kids who did not receive the

> vaccine? What about those who were autistic long before vaccinations

> became common?

> > there probably is a long laundry list of things that can cause

> autism, just like there is a laundry list of things that cause

> diabetes or heart disease or any other disease. maybe with the toxin

> theory there's a kernel of truth to it-kids may be more sensitive to

> these toxins and it might cause a reaction. but its just as true to

> say pitocin causes autism because there is anectodal evidence that a

> number of autistic children have mothers that were given pitocin

> >

>

October 28, 2007

Wow! I didn't know that!

was due on 11/5. That day came and went. Then the doctors told me that they must have made a mistake; according to the first sonogram, she should be due on 11/15. That day came and went. She was finally born on 11/1, almost a month after her original due date.

Deb

In a message dated 10/27/2007 11:49:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, melindaj@... writes:

I'll echo the "pitocin". I had it with my son also. His physciatrist said that pitocin contributes to tramatic birth and that it changes the way the uterus contracts. In "normal" labor, that uterus contracts in waves. In a "pitocin" induced labor they uterus contracts all at once. Imagine a vice being put around your entire body for a few seconds or longer. Talk about toture. I can't imagine.....Me> what about autistic kids who did not receive the vaccine? What about those who were autistic long before vaccinations became common? > there probably is a long laundry list of things that can cause autism, just like there is a laundry list of things that cause diabetes or heart disease or any other disease. maybe with the toxin theory there's a kernel of truth to it-kids may be more sensitive to these toxins and it might cause a reaction. but its just as true to say pitocin causes autism because there is anectodal evidence that a number of autistic children have mothers that were given pitocin> >

Debbie SalernoMaine Coon RescueBoard MemberDNA ManagerEastern Regional DirectorVice Presidentwww.mainecoonrescue.netSee what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

October 29, 2007

Hi, Heidi

I think what you're feeling is normal -- I think we just slowly get

used to 'this is how it is,' and what we do to help him is what gets us

past it. For each of us, that's different, because our kids are

different, but you have to remember that you ARE helping him, you ARE

doing what he needs, and you should feel good about that. I still have

days where I want to cry over something he's done, something I think he

should be doing, how different he can be, etc. Yesterday, he had his

first birthday party invitation in a good long while. (Wayyy too long,

people are awful and judgmental so they don't invite him. Their kids

don't necessarily 'get' him, so mom/dad doesn't make them do the right

thing and invite him, so he's the lone person in a group not invited

somewhere.) Anyway, at the party, I could see he was having

difficulties. I could have sworn one parent asked him to stop saying

his son's name wrong, and I could see my son's face change. He wouldn't

tell me he said anything, but I saw him. Big bully, I really wish

parents would learn to stop parenting others' kids, particularly when

the parents are right there. Not long after, they played a game, ds had

a really hard time, he didn't tantrum or get mad (yay! milestone

there!) but he did ask if we could go home. This was before the party

even got into full swing. I want him to be 'normal' and like birthday

parties, games, prizes, but if he's happy, I need to learn to be

content with that, so we came home. Hard thing for me as a mom, this is

my 4th child so I can more easily see his differences from the other

three.

We can't always 'fix' things, though it's our instinct, but we can help

and it sounds like you are doing all the right things! Don't beat

yourself up -- it does get easier in some regards, and you become more

'empowered,' if that makes sense?

Donna

Heidi Guarino wrote:

How do you get past that? I think I feel it every day. Whenever

he has a good day I'm certain this is all behind us. Then, he'll have a

tantrum or insist on talking like Curious , refuse to get

dressed, or talk endlessly about the same thing for hours and I'll

realize that I'm just kidding myself. We are doin everything in our

power to help him -- we've pulled every string we have to get him a

tutor on weekends, and to place him in a full-day integrated preschool

program focused on social interactions. He's getting speech and

occupational therapy twice a week, and I swear somedays it really seems

like lights are being turned on in his head. But then there are other

days that make me just want to cry.

I think as a parent I've become accustomed to being able to

"fix" things. I can put a band-aid on a scraped knee, put batteries in

toys when they die, give medicine to my kids when they're sick. I can

take them places, buy them things, sing them to sleep, make them giggle

when they're sad and calm them down when they're going crazy. But

THIS.... I can't fix this and it's really, really hard for me to accept

that.

You should all know that I'm being more honest on this listserve

than I've been with anyone... including my husband. Damn, that's really

sad.

On 10/26/07, Donna B <donnabzygmail> wrote:

Crazy? No way -- we all know our own kids the best, and we have

to make individual choices based on that. You'll find that on this

list, we often have different approaches but there's respect for that,

so even if someone did think you were crazy (which I doubt anyone would

lol) who cares. Do what's right for your son, and you know best

what that is.

And denial is a tough thing. I think everyone goes through a certain

phase of it. My husband had it bad, like a lot of dads do. Me, I jumped

in with both feet to get help, but I think part of me hoped throughout

the last almost 3 years that there was a mistake with his dx -- I know

there's something going on there, so I've did the 'well, maybe...' a

few times, but that just means that when he's having a bad day, my

stomach goes bam, and I think " he really DOES have autism." It's so

clear, but as a parent, I think we still have those moments of

sadness/denial about it.

Heidi Guarino wrote:

the advice came from my son's tutor who said she works with

a 12 year old who claims he can't learn to read "becasue he's

autistic." Our hope is to have Owen in a good place emotionally and

socially by the time he's old enough to notice and never have to make a

big deal out of this to him.

could be this is part our problem and our unwillingness to

accept that this is a "forever" thing. I don't know... all I know is

that I don't want my son to ever think there's something wrong with

him, or try to use it as an excuse to get out of achieving at his

fullest potential.

Do folks think I'm crazy? I've only been on this group

for a couple of days and I feel like I've learned a lot from all of

you... I think I hadn't realized just how much I';vebeen in denial

about this and how much it would help to have someone to talk to.

On 10/26/07, and/or Robin Lemke <jrisjs

> wrote:

Wow....we've never really been told what to do,,,,,but try

to look at it kind of like how we deal with telling our adopted

daughter that she is adopted.

It's been a part of all of our vocabularies since day 1.

AS and ADHD and Tourettes and adoption.

No one blinks twice when the words come up. It's simply a

part of our family.

I didn't want any of our kids to one day say, "What?

What's that?" and wonder why they weren't told.

Who knows.

I think it's a very personal thing.

I do think that no matter what your child "has".....it's

gonna be a natural thing to try to "use it" at some point.

When Ian has brought up AS and has tried to use

it,,,,,,we've laughed it off and said, "good try".

Robin

Heidi Guarino <heidi.guarinogmail>

wrote:

Donna,

We were told the opposite -- to never, ever tell our

4-year-old son that he's been diagnosed with anything. That if we told

him, someday down the line he woudl learn that he could use it as a

crutch.

On 10/26/07, Donna B <donnabzygmail>

wrote:

A behavioral therapist told us about 2 years ago that

we should tell our son he's different, so when others start noticing it

and treating him differently, he'd have a reason why, and it wouldn't

be as hurtful.

Our way? "You're a high-maintenance dude!" We say it with a smile and a

laugh, and if he's having a bad day, we joke about how he's being even

more high-maintenance. Now, he'll say "That's because I'm

high-maintenance!" A couple of times now, if he sees others having a

bad day, he'll say "They must be high-maintenance, too." It's helped

his understanding of others because he can relate.

Not a cure-all, but it's definitely helped!

Toni wrote:

If your

family members are telling you not to come around.. I wouldn't . They

are missing a blessing. They are closed minded, they are pitiful

(sorry). I understand your hurt. I hate to see my kids with other kids

because that is when it is so obvious they are different. But, you

know what, Debbie, it doesn't bother my kids to be different, they are

proud.. they don't want to be pedestrian (their words) and boring and

mundane.. to them we are the weird ones who ask about somebody's day

and don't really care if they answer or not.. it's a nicety... CHIN up

girl, I bet it doesn't bother your son (or mine) as nearly as their

treatment bothers us.By the way, my boys are 19 and they do get it,

they just don't care. They said the kids at school all drank, smoked,

did drugs, had sex etc and that they and one other boy were the only

virgins and they didn't WANT to be like the rest of the kids. Try to

concentrate on HIS positives just for today and you'll feel better...

My pdoc told me when I first started talking to him about the boys...

Look at every picture you see of Einstein, his hair is all over his

head, he had a 'keeper', his clothes were unkempt, and yet he was

brilliant and made a difference. Your boys will find their niche and

make a difference too... I understand feeling low... I have felt like I

was on a treadmill getting nowhere fast..sat in my room and cried...

but it will get better... Toni

-----

Original Message -----

From:

debramelamed

To:

Sent:

Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:38 PM

Subject:

( ) Re: Larry King Live

I don't think I can agree with that statement. I

know we all have our

quirks and weaknesses, but my child cannot connect with his peers. How

it must be to feel like an outsider amongst your peers I cannot

imagine. That is why my heart breaks, that is why I personally would

not have another child. I can't take the pain of seeing my son try to

connect and get frustrated and anxious and then aggressive because he

is hurt and angry that he can't be successful with connecting to other

kids. He doesn't even know why he can't connect because he is 7 and he

doesn't get it yet. There are no play dates, no friends, even my

family members are telling us not to come around. It is so hard.

Sorry if I am negative but I guess we all have our highs and lows and I

am low right now.

Debbie

__________________________________________________

October 29, 2007

Wait, just to be sure you understand me -- I DO believe in ABA. I'm

just saying that the medical establishment in general pushes ABA but

nothing is considered "proven" in the eyes of those insurance companies

being asked to pay for it. We use ABA...and biomedical...but we're not

in ABA right now, so I know where the change is coming from. However,

ABA starts again in a few weeks (YAY -- the waiting list was forever

long for this program) so I know we'll see more positive change too.

(You'd think insurance companies would be more willing, given that the

cost to care for kids as adults costs so much more.)

I really don't want to give the wrong impression -- I really was saying

that I caved, because I worried about the vaccines and got them anyway.

Was my worry rational? Who knows, but in my mind, I gave in when I

shouldn't have. Not everyone has those worries, so I couldn't say they

caved, if that makes it more clear?

Eh, I'm not sure I misrepresent that autism is caused by vaccines -- a

very growing belief is that it is caused by toxins in genetically

predisposed children. Thimerasol's a toxin... It's my opinion, just

like an opinion to the contrary. I'm just glad for the freedom to be

able to state that, and if it helps even a single parent realize that

THEY are in charge of their child, that they should research on their

own and ask around, just be sure for their own needs, I'm glad.

Touche on Columbus -- but some kids with chelation and other biomedical

treatments no longer have an autism diagnosis. That would make for an

awful lot of doctors who were wrong, and parents who went along with

it. I've seen some of them before/after. No doubt before, and no doubt

now. Amazing differences. It won't work for everyone, but for those it

does, how awesome -- I just don't want that negated or that option

removed, because I didn't think it would help my child, but the fact

remains, it very much is.

Roxanna, I enjoy talking with you...I hope you know I'm never directing

my feelings at you?

Donna

Roxanna wrote:

It is called proven

by people who use it. You just need to hang out with a different

crowd. As to why it's not covered - why isn't "autism" in general

covered by insurance, because it isn't a real disability? No. Because

they don't have to and it saves them money not to. The longer

insurance and schools do not admit coverage and services for ABA, the

longer they save money. And as we know, money rules the world. My

state is just now working on autism parity in insurance. We'll see if

it happens. They used to turn down coverage on my ds for strep throat

just because he is also autistic. So I don't think of "insurance" as

the guiding light of what is real in the world.

I know you didn't say

that "I" personally caved, but you are giving the impression that

people who allow their children to get immunizations are being bullied

into it or caving. I think I said that if people feel bullied by their

pediatrician, then they definitely should get another doctor. There is

no reason for people to put up with that.

But in connection

with other comments that there is a known cause for autism when there

isn't, I think it gives the impression that this is a fact when it's

not. People can have different opinions but not different facts. I

know some people want to believe in the vaccine connection and I don't

care if they do. I just can't have people saying things are fact when

they are not fact. And really, I also think that people who don't buy

into this theory should speak up more because too often, only your

version of this gets publicized. I don't think there is any worry that

your theory won't get told.

I don't think the

"Columbus" comparison would even fit here. Columbus set sail and

landed.

Roxanna

Autism Happens

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Donna B

To:

Sent:

Friday, October 26, 2007 2:39 PM

Subject:

Re: ( ) Re: Larry King Live

Just to clarify -- I didn't say you caved -- I said "I caved,"

specifically because I gave my kid a vaccine that a doctor made me feel

bad for doing something I didn't think was right.

I know we're not all going to agree on this, and that's okay. (People

didn't agree with Columbus when he said the world was round, so I can

deal LOL) I just expect everyone to understand that it is okay to have

other thoughts on it, to look in other directions, and try new things.

Even the medical establishment wouldn't be anywhere today if new things

weren't tried.

I've always wondered, if ABA is proven, why isn't it covered by

insurance? I totally believe in its necessity, but even it's not called

'proven.'

Roxanna wrote:

I don't think

coming up with new vaccines removes our rights as parents. I think we

owe a lot to vaccines in helping cure/solve a lot of illnesses. I also don't think I have caved

because I have had my kids given their immunizations. If a doctor makes

anyone feel that way, maybe they should get a different doc. I know I

would!

Roxanna

Autism Happens

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Donna B

To:

Sent:

Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:17 PM

Subject:

Re: ( ) Re: Larry King Live

Texas tried to make it mandatory, but it was changed -- not

enough research and it was taking the choice out of the parents' hands.

Every vaccine, new or not, removes a bit more of our rights -- the

medical establishment is not perfect. (Think thalidomide.) I don't

want my children ever being someone's guinea pigs or hurt because I

caved when a doctor made me feel bad for doing what I think is right.

They are my kids, so stand back lol

Rose wrote:

Deb,

<<<the new one for young girls>>>. are

you speaking of the vaccine that's new, that's suppose to prevent

ovarian cancer? I heard on the news that some states made it mandatory

for girls to have this, and some schools are giving them out "in

school". I don't know which states.

debmetsfanaol wrote:

's pediatrician wants to give her the meningitis

vaccine and the new one for young girls. Should I be concerned at

all?

Deb

In a message dated 10/24/2007 10:34:49 P.M. Eastern

Daylight Time, mrathswohldaylemc (DOT) org writes:

I guess part of my problem with Dr. Kartzinel is

just that I don't

really see my son as broken, but different. I did listen to the clip

again and she did say recovered, so I have to back away from that

issue there. My only reason for saying anything about the MMR is that

I keep hearing people blame the mercury in the MMR for their kids

being autistic, and the MMR does not contain any. I do think that we

need to have research on the issue of the viral load and overloading

our kids immune systems. That just seems to be a far more likely

cause, and if that is the cause I belive that we need to spread out

the immunitizations better so they are not getting so much at one.

Thanks for the feedback.

>

> I agreed with Dr. Kartzinel -- my thoughts are that these kids do

have

> some broken mechanisms in their body, things that don't work right

for

> one way or another. But, it may be because I see my son have a ton

of

> intestinal issues, rashes, aches, etc., that can't be explained,

and

> many, many children on the spectrum face similar issues. Dr.

Kartzinel

> is an amazing man, very much on our side, so I'd have a hard time

> feeling bad about the fact he's getting awareness out there.

Honestly,

> personally? I don't get caught up in the semantics. My son has

issues,

> and I don't care if he's referred to as autistic, which is the

peeve I

> have with Holly -Peete; she can feel that way about her

son, but

> to say that it's the wrong vernacular is misrepresentation, imo. I

say

> my son 'is autistic' sometimes, but I don't say he is "an

autistic." My

> daughter is epileptic, it's true, it's factual, I can't be

bothered

by

> that. It's just words.

>

> also never says she 'cured' her son. She says she recovered

him.

> You probably heard her bus analogy -- you get hit by a bus, you'll

never

> be cured, you'll always have aches, pains, scars, but you can

recover.

>

> The thing with the MMR shot is that it's a huge dose of vaccine on

a

> body that is still growing and the mixture can be dangerous to a

child

> who cannot process the viral/toxic loads as bodies are supposed

to.

> (Which explains why not every child gets autism after having

vaccines.

> Most children can process the loads fine, but toxins increase, the

> number of children who can't process the increased toxins is

growing at

> a scary epidemic rate.)

>

> Be careful to just research the FDA and government sites. It makes

sense

> that they aren't going to show the side-effects, unless they are

in

> small print and hard to find. And a 'trace' of thimerasol can

still

be

> WAY more than a tiny body can process per pound.

>

> And last -- Thimerasol was 'recommended' to be phased out in 1999,

but

> because it preserves vaccines for years, those vaccines that

weren't yet

> used stayed on the shelf for years later because they weren't yet

> expired, so while new ones weren't made, those ones with

thimerasol

> still remained.

>

> Thimerasol/vaccines aren't the sole reason for autism, they are

just one

> of the most common ones -- pesticides, medications, etc., there's

a

lot

> of toxins out there contributing to it all.

>

> Hope that helps!

> Donna

>

Debbie Salerno

Maine Coon Rescue

Board Member

DNA Manager

Eastern Regional Director

Vice President

www.mainecoonrescue.net

See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

__________________________________________________

October 29, 2007

ACK...no one said cure!

And, it doesn't work for everyone. It's a help for a lot of kids, a way

to improve, but not a cure, and it doesn't work for all.

I'm sorry you're feeling stalked -- no one should do that to anyone.

Sounds like some of the pages you're looking at are by doctors in it

for the money, when that's not the majority. (And honestly, I get tired

of people telling me their vitamin is better, by this cookie,

whatever...but that's life, I get more viagra ads in my inbox daily

than anything else lol)

For what it's worth, I don't pay a DAN doctor. I don't buy from

expensive retailers. I don't use expensive programs. I use books, the

internet, and so forth. No expensive outlay of cash here at all. I'd

buy my kid vitamins anyway, you know? My son's OT appts cost more, and

that's even after the insurance coverage.

And amen to that -- use your own judgment, something I've said all

along.

RUTHIE BRYAN DOLEZAL wrote:

If this is about a cure, etc., then why are those promoting DAN

and DAN conferences, etc., needing DAN or this support group (for

example)? 'Cuz, if it works so well, then why aren't the autistic

children all better or cured, and our website (or need for it) ended?

Just my honest thought here......

That being said:

One of my concerns is that, when I, personally, along with my husband,

have PERSONALLY been stalked and / or harassed and chased by these

'hell bent roar' die hard believers of all that stuff to do the diets

and DAN and all this stuff, I am sent to all these websites, and

doctors pages, and I looked at them, very open-minded for a moment;

that moment was killed nearly INSTANTLY, as, in my opinion, my husband

and I are both very well educated college grads, etc., and most of the

pages are very scant and / or just appear to be 'scams' or 'scam like'

material, and not very legitimate. THEY LOOK FAKE and LIKE SCAMS TO

US!! Seems to us more like MONEY MAKING EFFORTS THAN GENUINE---and,

that is where I will leave it, as I am NOT sure I want to get involved

in the 'heated debate' here; I think ROXANNA rocks (as everyone knows)

but that is just our intellectual and GUT opinions and reactions. I

have learned to follow my GUT every time, it is almost always right on;

the times I went against my first opinion, I regretted it.

USE YOUR OWN JUDGMENTS----just wanted to share what we feel

and see when we are pushed to that stuff......

Ruthie Dolezal

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Roxanna

To:

Sent:

Friday, October 26, 2007 6:50 PM

Subject:

Re: ( ) Larry King Live

I'm not sure where

your beef is then. People do have choices and are choosing to do their

own thing. It's not been taken away from them. So all is good there.

You said, "So no, I don't have to prove

there is a cause if there is a suspicion -- I'm not a researcher, I'm a

parent who knows her child and has talked to a ton of others and has

researched a lot on a "mom" level." You can have your opinions

but you can't say they are facts. That's all I care about here. If

you don't feel the need to prove something is true before you decide

it's true, that may be something that works for you personally. Not

for me, though. I will demand more before I agree something is a

fact. Think about it like this - they used to believe that people were

witches and burn them at the stake for it. They didn't need fact or

proof, they just felt it was true or had suspicions it was true. I

mean you can make an example out of anything to make a point.

Also, I did not say

research should focus solely on genetics either. But nothing you've

listed so far is a fact as to the cause of autism.

Roxanna

Autism Happens

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Donna B

To:

Sent:

Friday, October 26, 2007 4:13 PM

Subject:

Re: ( ) Larry King Live

Have you ever been to a DAN conference? The stats they share

there are enlightening. The lists and lists of doctors, researchers

alone is staggering. A certain segment believes vaccinations have

nothing to do with autism, so being a 'certain segment' doesn't lessen

their input or concerns. The 'vaccines are fine' population certainly

pushes their theories.

Many, many doctors and researchers not a part of the DAN population

specifically are now saying that autism is a whole body disorder, with

genetic factors, and something that the child is exposed to causes it

to 'bloom,' for lack of a better word, into autism. For some kids, it's

thimerasol. For others, medication mom had to take to stay pregnant. (I

honestly believe it contributed to my son.) For others, it's an illness

that was treated with something that their body couldn't handle. In

short though, it is becoming widely spread that children with autism

have issues because their bodies can't process something to which they

were exposed. What? They haven't quite figured out the magic thing, but

maybe someday. Until then, it makes sense, imo, to lessen the exposure

to things not thoroughly proven to be safe..or not related to a toxin

that the FDA recommends people watch carefully.

It's a fact that thimerasol is a toxin. That's all I need to know to

make it suspect to inject into a child or anyone else. So no, I don't

have to prove there is a cause if there is a suspicion -- I'm not a

researcher, I'm a parent who knows her child and has talked to a ton of

others and has researched a lot on a "mom" level. If people kept

smoking until they proved it was cigarettes that caused lung cancer,

look where the rates would be. It was presumed long before proven, and

it started out with a small group of people who believed it, much like

many other diseases.

I'm not saying all autism is caused by vaccines, MMR, or thimerasol.

I'm saying it contributes and in some cases is the cause. I'm not going

to be in favor of giving a baby 36 shots before they are 2.5 years

old....I'd much rather give 50 and have them spread out so the child's

body can recoup in between.

Until they can prove it isn't, because so far they can't prove squat

about what causes it, I'm not going to be in favor of injecting a toxin

into anyone. They've proven nothing unequivocally. I think they need to

leave the field wide open -- continue to consider thimerasol,

medications taken during pregnancy, other vaccinations, poisons in

cleaning products, you name it...but to focus solely on genetics when

thousands of people have seen improvements with other methods, it makes

no sense. If it doesn't work for someone, great, but it shouldn't

remove the right for someone else to have their choice for their own

child. And that's my biggest beef, I guess?

I will be the first to admit that there is a faction of people out

there who are overzealous, to the point of namecalling and nastiness

towards those that vaccinate. It's awful -- I think as a community of

parents of children with autism, sticking together is much more

productive. We don't need to all agree but we shouldn't be divisive.

Just because I feel one way doesn't mean someone else should, though I

think the sharing of opinions and feelings is what leads us all to

learn. Overzealousness lies on both sides of the fence and should be

done away with. I'd much rather have a friendly talk about something,

however contentious the topic, than argue.

Roxanna wrote:

You don't have

to prove there isn't, you have to prove there is. But you said it was

a common cause of autism and it's not proven that it is even "A" cause

of autism, let alone the common cause. Even if people feel like a

vaccine caused autism, it doesn't mean it's any more true. I don't

think it is widely accepted either. There is just a certain segment of

people who do and like to push their theories. I personally get upset

that people want to hyper focus on this one thing and not look around

at other possible causes. I think it will slow down the search for

answers. It's fine to consider this option, IMO, but not at the

expense of any other.

Roxanna

Autism Happens

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Donna B

To:

Sent:

Friday, October 26, 2007 2:36 PM

Subject:

Re: ( ) Larry King Live

I didn't say there was proof -- as well as there is no

proof it hasn't. It is widely accepted though, not by everyone, but a

lot though, and with growing numbers, that autism is caused in

genetically predisposed kids by toxins, one of them being thimerasol

because it is a toxin. (If mercury was safe, we could eat all the fish

we wanted and go back to mercury thermometers.) It's common

because most kids get vaccines.

Roxanna wrote:

There is no

proof at all that thimerasol causes autism nor is it a "common cause"

of autism.

Roxanna

Autism Happens

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Donna B

To:

Sent:

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:00 PM

Subject:

Re: ( ) Larry King Live

I agreed with Dr. Kartzinel -- my thoughts are that

these kids do have some broken mechanisms in their body, things that

don't work right for one way or another. But, it may be because I see

my son have a ton of intestinal issues, rashes, aches, etc., that can't

be explained, and many, many children on the spectrum face similar

issues. Dr. Kartzinel is an amazing man, very much on our side, so I'd

have a hard time feeling bad about the fact he's getting awareness out

there. Honestly, personally? I don't get caught up in the semantics. My

son has issues, and I don't care if he's referred to as autistic, which

is the peeve I have with Holly -Peete; she can feel that way

about her son, but to say that it's the wrong vernacular is

misrepresentation, imo. I say my son 'is autistic' sometimes, but I

don't say he is "an autistic." My daughter is epileptic, it's true,

it's factual, I can't be bothered by that. It's just words.

also never says she 'cured' her son. She says she recovered him.

You probably heard her bus analogy -- you get hit by a bus, you'll

never be cured, you'll always have aches, pains, scars, but you can

recover.

The thing with the MMR shot is that it's a huge dose of vaccine on a

body that is still growing and the mixture can be dangerous to a child

who cannot process the viral/toxic loads as bodies are supposed to.

(Which explains why not every child gets autism after having vaccines.

Most children can process the loads fine, but toxins increase, the

number of children who can't process the increased toxins is growing at

a scary epidemic rate.)

Be careful to just research the FDA and government sites. It makes

sense that they aren't going to show the side-effects, unless they are

in small print and hard to find. And a 'trace' of thimerasol can still

be WAY more than a tiny body can process per pound.

And last -- Thimerasol was 'recommended' to be phased out in 1999, but

because it preserves vaccines for years, those vaccines that weren't

yet used stayed on the shelf for years later because they weren't yet

expired, so while new ones weren't made, those ones with thimerasol

still remained.

Thimerasol/vaccines aren't the sole reason for autism, they are just

one of the most common ones -- pesticides, medications, etc., there's a

lot of toxins out there contributing to it all.

Hope that helps!

Donna

wrote:

What is everyone's take on the Larry King Live show

with McCarthy

and Halle Pete?

I was pretty frustrated to hear the docter refer to our kids as "Broken

Children" and the other comment was from about curing her son of

Autism. Autism is a neurological disorder that is not

tecnically "curable" but is treatable.

I was also listening to them talk about how the MMR shot, and the

immunitizations were the causes of autism. I went to the FDA website

and the MMR has NEVER contained Thimersoal. Also all other

immunitizations have phased out the thimersoal starting in 1999, and

most of them are free of mercury or never had it.

I wanted imput from everyone here, because I feel like you will all

give me great imput on what you think. Thanks!

Chelle

October 29, 2007

I was planning on moving on to another topic, I didn't intend on

getting into a debate about the merits of what has worked for my son,

and is still working, nor my beliefs on vaccines because I believe we

all have the right to our feelings. But your second sentence has caught

my eye.

I am not repeating what I hear. That's actually quite offensive, if you

think about it. It pretty much outright says that we're not thinking

for ourselves, which is entirely not the case.

Maybe there are people who do that, but it's not the norm. Parents who

vaccinate, I could just as easily say they're just doing what they

hear...but that would be a completely irrational, rude, incorrect

blanket judgment.

Could we try and remember that it's okay to have other feelings? I've

never slammed someone for vaccinating, I'd really prefer if we could

not slam those of us who have different feelings? We have enough crap

to deal with in real life, no need to add to it.

wrote:

Hi Roxanna,

Thank you for your imput here. I get so frustrated when I hear people

just repeat what they hear. My sister-in-law refered to the MMR as

the autism shot and said that she is not going to let her son get it.

I personally feel that there are many factors that contribute to our

kids developing autism. My son had the shots, the protection they

give our kids (in my opinion) far outweighed the risks. Also I have a

hard time beliving that the shots could have caused the multiple

instances of Autism that are in my family. I think there is a genetic

factor to be considered. My Grandfather, my 2 uncles, and 3 of my

cousins (all male) as well as my son all have AS. There MUST be a

genetic link there. That many men having AS can not possibly be a

fluke.

I know that I am going to give my daughter the shots. I know that I

have concerns about the viral load and at our next appointment we

will be discussing spreading out her shots more, but I don't ever

want to have to see my baby suffer Whooping cough or the measles,

rotovirus...the kinds of things that we get shots for as kids. I

got

all the shots that babies get, plus a ton more at 9 months of age

because we moved to the Middle East. I didn't "get" autism from all

those shots. I think our kids are wired differently, and that is

exactly what I tell my son. We have struggles with behavior, and

attitude, and I know a large part of his issues are because he

doesn't get social rules, but he is who he is. I wouldn't change him

for anything in the world. I really like, love and adore this unique,

quirky little man that God gave me. I know that having a child with

autism is hard, stressful and emotionally tiring, but when that angel

looks up and smiles, it is worth it.

Thanks again for the imput! I love all the support that is felt here.

>

> I'm not sure where your beef is then. People do have choices and

are choosing to do their own thing. It's not been taken away from

them. So all is good there.

>

> You said, "So no, I don't have to prove there is a cause if there

is a suspicion -- I'm not a researcher, I'm a parent who knows her

child and has talked to a ton of others and has researched a lot on

a "mom" level." You can have your opinions but you can't say they

are facts. That's all I care about here. If you don't feel the need

to prove something is true before you decide it's true, that may be

something that works for you personally. Not for me, though. I will

demand more before I agree something is a fact. Think about it like

this - they used to believe that people were witches and burn them at

the stake for it. They didn't need fact or proof, they just felt it

was true or had suspicions it was true. I mean you can make an

example out of anything to make a point.

>

> Also, I did not say research should focus solely on genetics

either. But nothing you've listed so far is a fact as to the cause

of autism.

>

> Roxanna

October 29, 2007

Awww, that's just a shame. Don't you want to shake people sometimes? I

truly hate it when others jump in and try to parent my child,

particularly if I'm standing right there. IMO, it sure doesn't help a

child if mom steps in and fixes every little injustice he/she may

experience either...meaning the other lady's son, that's life, he'll

never learn either.

But I love your response! I may have to steal that!!

Dee DiMemmo wrote:

we were in barnes & noble a while back and saber was playing

with the train set that was there, he had started playing with it

before another little boy came over and saber didnt want to share...the

other boys mother told me that i needed to teach my son to play nice

with others. i just looked at her and said he's autistic. next time

i'll hang a sign around his neck to let you know. it shut her up real

fast!!!!

its so hard when people look at you like you're a bad parent or

something, when its our kiddo not knowing how to handle a situation

Donna B <donnabzygmail> wrote:

Hi Debbie -- don't apologize, like you said, we all have our

highs and lows. I know I've come here on a bad day plenty of times!

I've got four kids, and only my youngest has autism (which, for me,

bolsters my thoughts that it's toxins that have just increased through

the years), but my 12 yod has seizure disorder, and I see how it

affects her life too, though she is SUCH a trouper. Anyway, it's so

hard watching your child try to connect and not be able to. People

really downplay the social aspects, "they'll learn, they'll get by" are

things I hear often. Sure, they will, but does that make it okay? Are

we supposed to overlook it?

We took my son to the dentist a couple of days ago, and he attempted to

play with the other kids at the toy area. One boy was playing with him,

but ds had to be in charge. He was telling the other boy what to do,

how, when, etc. That's typical, everywhere we go, he has to be in

charge. He wants it that way at home, too, so why it would be any

different elsewhere makes no sense. He wants waffles for breakfast

every day (when he's not on a pancake binge) but they must be sliced,

dry, then have the syrup poured over. His 'coffee' (almond chocolate

milk) must be in a specific cup. Everything has a way about it, and

while we try to break some habits, shake things up, we choose our

battles and some things just aren't worth it. Lots of years to work on

that.

Donna

debramelamed wrote:

I don't think I can agree with that statement. I know we all

have our