Re: Does anyone know the difference?

[Guest guest]

That's a really good question. "Be the change you want to see in the world" Gandhi ( ) Does anyone know the difference?

I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

Thanks!

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Last night I watched an interesting program on PBS on children who

are diagnosed with bipolar disoder... Had to 'google' the subject;

here it is: It is called, The Medicated Child, and it appears

on 'Frontline'. I hope there may be some answers within to your query!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/medicatedchild/etc/synopsis.ht

ml

In recent years, there's been a dramatic increase in the number of

children being diagnosed with serious psychiatric disorders and

prescribed medications that are just beginning to be tested in

children. The drugs can cause serious side effects, and virtually

nothing is known about their long-term impact. " It's really to some

extent an experiment, trying medications in these children of this

age, " child psychiatrist Dr. Bacon tells FRONTLINE. " It's a

gamble. And I tell parents there's no way to know what's going to

work. "

In The Medicated Child, FRONTLINE producer Marcela Gaviria confronts

psychiatrists, researchers and government regulators about the risks,

benefits and many questions surrounding prescription drugs for

troubled children. The biggest current controversy surrounds the

diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Formerly called manic depression,

bipolar disorder was long believed to exist only in adults. But in

the mid-1990s, bipolar in children began to be diagnosed at much

higher rates, sometimes in kids as young as 4 years old. " The rates

of bipolar diagnoses in children have increased markedly in many

communities over the last five to seven years, " says Dr.

Hyman, a former director of the National Institute of Mental

Health. " I think the real question is, are those diagnoses right? And

in truth, I don't think we yet know the answer. "

Like many of the 1 million children now diagnosed with bipolar, 5-

year-old was initially believed to suffer from an

attention deficit disorder. His parents reluctantly started him on

Ritalin, but over the next five years, would be put on one drug

after another. " It all started to feel out of control, " 's

father, Ron, told FRONTLINE. " Nobody ever said we can work with this

through therapy and things like that. Everywhere we looked it

was, 'Take meds, take meds, take meds.' "

Over the years, 's multiple medications have helped improve his

mood, but they've also left him with a severe tic in his neck which

doctors are having trouble fully explaining. " We're dealing with

developing minds and brains, and medications have a whole different

impact in the young developing child than they do in an adult, " says

Dr. nne Wamboldt, the chief of psychiatry at Denver Children's

Hospital. " We don't understand that impact very well. That's where

we're still in the Dark Ages. "

DJ Koontz was diagnosed with bipolar at 4 years old, after his temper

tantrums became more frequent and explosive. He was recently

prescribed powerful antipsychotic drugs. " It is a little worrisome to

me because he is so young, " says DJ's mother, . " If he

didn't take it, though, I don't know if we could function as a

family. It's almost a do-or-die situation over here. " DJ's medicines

seem to be helping him in the short run, but the longer-term outlook

is still uncertain. " What's not really clear is whether many of the

kids who are called bipolar have anything that's related to this very

well-studied disorder in adults, " says Dr. Insel, the director

of the National Institute of Mental Health. " It's not clear that

people with that adult illness started with what we're now calling

bipolar in children. Nor is it clear that the kids who have this

disorder are going to grow up to have what we used to call manic-

depressive illness in adulthood. "

While some urge caution when it comes to bipolar in children,

FRONTLINE talks with others who argue that we should intervene with

drug treatments at even younger ages for children genetically

predisposed to the disorder. " The theory is that if you get in early,

before the first full mood episode, then perhaps we can delay the

onset to full mania, " says Dr. Kiki Chang of Stanford

University. " And if that's the case, perhaps finding the right

medication early on can protect a brain so that these children never

do progress to full bipolar disorder. "

home . introduction . watch online . frequently asked questions .

interviews . a parents' guide . join the discussion

producer's chat . site map . dvd & transcript . press reaction

credits . privacy policy . journalistic guidelines . FRONTLINE series

home . wgbh . pbs

posted january 8, 2008

FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of wgbh educational foundation.

main photograph © corbis, all rights reserved

web site copyright 1995-2008 WGBH educational foundation

>

> I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How

can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

> Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks! I appreciate your taking the time to send it. I'm sure it will be VERY helpful!

( ) Re: Does anyone know the difference?

Last night I watched an interesting program on PBS on children who are diagnosed with bipolar disoder... Had to 'google' the subject; here it is: It is called, The Medicated Child, and it appears on 'Frontline'. I hope there may be some answers within to your query!http://www.pbs. org/wgbh/ pages/frontline/ medicatedchild/ etc/synopsis. htmlIn recent years, there's been a dramatic increase in the number of children being diagnosed with serious psychiatric disorders and prescribed medications that are just beginning to be tested in children. The drugs can cause serious side effects, and virtually nothing is known about their long-term impact. "It's really to some extent an experiment, trying medications in these children of this age," child psychiatrist Dr. Bacon tells FRONTLINE.

"It's a gamble. And I tell parents there's no way to know what's going to work."In The Medicated Child, FRONTLINE producer Marcela Gaviria confronts psychiatrists, researchers and government regulators about the risks, benefits and many questions surrounding prescription drugs for troubled children. The biggest current controversy surrounds the diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Formerly called manic depression, bipolar disorder was long believed to exist only in adults. But in the mid-1990s, bipolar in children began to be diagnosed at much higher rates, sometimes in kids as young as 4 years old. "The rates of bipolar diagnoses in children have increased markedly in many communities over the last five to seven years," says Dr. Hyman, a former director of the National Institute of Mental Health. "I think the real question is, are those diagnoses right? And in truth, I don't think we yet

know the answer."Like many of the 1 million children now diagnosed with bipolar, 5-year-old was initially believed to suffer from an attention deficit disorder. His parents reluctantly started him on Ritalin, but over the next five years, would be put on one drug after another. "It all started to feel out of control," 's father, Ron, told FRONTLINE. "Nobody ever said we can work with this through therapy and things like that. Everywhere we looked it was, 'Take meds, take meds, take meds.'"Over the years, 's multiple medications have helped improve his mood, but they've also left him with a severe tic in his neck which doctors are having trouble fully explaining. "We're dealing with developing minds and brains, and medications have a whole different impact in the young developing child than they do in an adult," says Dr. nne Wamboldt, the chief of

psychiatry at Denver Children's Hospital. "We don't understand that impact very well. That's where we're still in the Dark Ages."DJ Koontz was diagnosed with bipolar at 4 years old, after his temper tantrums became more frequent and explosive. He was recently prescribed powerful antipsychotic drugs. "It is a little worrisome to me because he is so young," says DJ's mother, . "If he didn't take it, though, I don't know if we could function as a family. It's almost a do-or-die situation over here." DJ's medicines seem to be helping him in the short run, but the longer-term outlook is still uncertain. "What's not really clear is whether many of the kids who are called bipolar have anything that's related to this very well-studied disorder in adults," says Dr. Insel, the director of the National Institute of Mental Health. "It's not clear that people with that adult illness started

with what we're now calling bipolar in children. Nor is it clear that the kids who have this disorder are going to grow up to have what we used to call manic-depressive illness in adulthood."While some urge caution when it comes to bipolar in children, FRONTLINE talks with others who argue that we should intervene with drug treatments at even younger ages for children genetically predisposed to the disorder. "The theory is that if you get in early, before the first full mood episode, then perhaps we can delay the onset to full mania," says Dr. Kiki Chang of Stanford University. "And if that's the case, perhaps finding the right medication early on can protect a brain so that these children never do progress to full bipolar disorder."home . introduction . watch online . frequently asked questions . interviews . a parents' guide . join the discussionproducer's chat . site map . dvd &

transcript . press reactioncredits . privacy policy . journalistic guidelines . FRONTLINE series home . wgbh . pbsposted january 8, 2008FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of wgbh educational foundation.main photograph © corbis, all rights reservedweb site copyright 1995-2008 WGBH educational foundation>> I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?> Thanks! >

[Guest guest]

ODD is a behavioral disorder and the main approach for treating a behavioral disorder is behavior modification techniques. Often times children with bipolar disorder are misdiagnosed with ODD simply because they don't want to "put that label on such young children" also since bipolar symptoms manifest themselves differently in children than they do in adults some health professionals fail to recognise it. Bipolar is different than ODD in that it is a mental illness cause by a chemical imbalance in the brain that leads to mood swings. The way the mood swings present is dependant of the type of bipolar that a person has. Behavior modifiaction techniques are simply not effective in the treatment of bipolar unless there is also medical intervention to counteract the chemical imbalance. Bipolar disorder used to be called manic-depresive disorder because of the switches a person

would make between depression and manic states. Manic being the "feeling too good" state. The person suffering this state may feel a high amount of energy, trouble sleeping, may feel invincable and take risks, sometimes a person in a manic state could also hallucinate but not necessarily. Do not confuse this with scizophrenia it is a different disorder. In children the depressed state of the disorder can present as anger, sullenness, defiance, rage instead of the simple sad, lethargic, apathetic state we see in most adults dealing with a depressed state. I hope that helps. It can be frustrating when dealing with diagnosis and misdiagnosis. Good luck. <lisa_leonard@...> wrote: I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else? Thanks!

[Guest guest]

ODD: Oppositional Defiant Disorder: example in a nutshell, I tell you NO, you look at me and do it again, sometimes again, etc......my sons laugh and don't listen (or that is what it appears to be)-----------we have worked on stopping this behavior before they ever started it, yet, they do it anyway---my NT 5 year old STOPS---so, it is NOT our lack of parenting skills so HE DOES NOT HAVE ODD for sure--------better yet, our two aspies are labeled like this (SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!) ODD vs. Conduct Disorder vs. PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) Which can be from a one time stressful / hard on them event that is perhaps planted or 'stuck' in their brains----it only takes a one time event----you tell me that isn't nuts!!??

As for Bi-polar----it is very obvious mood swings, usually nearly calendar like (with a lot of Bi-polar people, they cycle---you know when things are coming / going to change)....it is way different............in a NORMAL adult for example, without ASPERGERS, the person is the best person ever (perhaps) for six weeks, calm, just the nicest person you could ever meet for real, and then, they may be up for 3 nights and days straight, and be the most abusive, violent person you have ever met..........but, when this episode is over, they go back to their sweet, kind, normal, loving person----it is kind of like the 'cycle of abuse.' And, they are often very abusive and out of control during their manias.........doing things they don't want to do, but due to not being properly medicated. Hope that helps.

Ruthie Dolezal

From: lisa_leonard@...Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:21:24 -0700Subject: ( ) Does anyone know the difference?

I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Thanks!!!! With my son, his moods change quickly from happy to mad constantly every day and when we tell him to do something he says he doesn't want to and throws a tantrum about it. If we tell him not to do something he will look right at us and then do it. He is pretty much the same way with the teachers. He is also extremely hyper and has been since he was a toddler. Also, his aggression seems to be getting worse on a daily basis. My oldest daughter is bipolar and my other son is ADHD and raising them was so easy compared to my six year old.

( ) Does anyone know the difference?

I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Thank! We need it!!!

Re: ( ) Does anyone know the difference?

ODD is a behavioral disorder and the main approach for treating a behavioral disorder is behavior modification techniques. Often times children with bipolar disorder are misdiagnosed with ODD simply because they don't want to "put that label on such young children" also since bipolar symptoms manifest themselves differently in children than they do in adults some health professionals fail to recognise it.

Bipolar is different than ODD in that it is a mental illness cause by a chemical imbalance in the brain that leads to mood swings. The way the mood swings present is dependant of the type of bipolar that a person has. Behavior modifiaction techniques are simply not effective in the treatment of bipolar unless there is also medical intervention to counteract the chemical imbalance.

Bipolar disorder used to be called manic-depresive disorder because of the switches a person would make between depression and manic states. Manic being the "feeling too good" state. The person suffering this state may feel a high amount of energy, trouble sleeping, may feel invincable and take risks, sometimes a person in a manic state could also hallucinate but not necessarily. Do not confuse this with scizophrenia it is a different disorder.

In children the depressed state of the disorder can present as anger, sullenness, defiance, rage instead of the simple sad, lethargic, apathetic state we see in most adults dealing with a depressed state.

I hope that helps. It can be frustrating when dealing with diagnosis and misdiagnosis. Good luck. <lisa_leonard@ sbcglobal. net> wrote:

I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

I would suggest medicating the ADHD parts of him for the hyperness; if you refuse to do that / don't believe in it,

there are people on here using Mountain Dew, Coffee, CAFFEINE...........anyway, they SEE things differently than us,

so they are very frustrated..........and easily frustrated. I would suggest doing 123 MAGIC (parenting class / book / video--however

you want to do it, and implementing that. I would also suggest that you start making sure you are being extremely consistent (I know, you think you are already--you may find out that you are not, really----------make sure husband AND you are on the exact same pages...........doing the same thing for behaviors).

Then, pick ONE THING he does that you cannot stand and want to improve------work on that one thing ONLY---once it is better / improved, pick another----if you do too much, you nor the child will be successful. Buspar for anxiety (I know, you probably don't think anxiety) helped us A LOT------we were SHOCKED our son had ANXIETY-----let alone ASPERGERS---he is medicated for the ADHD and Anxiety------anyway, that, too, will help.

And, give cues to all transitions, as that will be very important-----they run by the book, the rules you teach them. So, make sure that you are following the 'rules' you set. So, perhaps set a timer for the transition, telling him you have 3 minutes to clean this up, and when the timer goes off, we are going to _____________, or, you are going to leave your room and go put your shoes on, as we have to leave now. He is six (just like our second AS son).........so, use the clock, show him the time and when he will do what. And, implement a total bedtime routine for each and every single night ( we are doing this no matter what---even if we are home late--------) Kids sleeping now in 5-10 minutes. Also, LAVENDER oil--2-3 drops by their head on the pillow can and is a GOD SEND------------Sometimes I put few drops of lemon and orange oils together and rub forehead---my son calls it is sleeping love potion (it is very sweet---he gets my attention for 2-4 minutes, to him, this is love---and he knows it makes him sleep)..........and, it is keeping me doing it (I am getting more from it than he, I am sure). I am learning (my husband is not yet, but I HAVE LEARNED) that the 2-4 minutes of my undivided attention creates peace, love, harmony and sleep; to NOT do this little routine creates 2-3 hours of games, not going to bed, etc. So, I have decided, 2-4 minutes of my time and the peace, is worth everything.

Ruthie

From: lisa_leonard@...Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:07:47 -0700Subject: Re: ( ) Does anyone know the difference?

Thanks!!!! With my son, his moods change quickly from happy to mad constantly every day and when we tell him to do something he says he doesn't want to and throws a tantrum about it. If we tell him not to do something he will look right at us and then do it. He is pretty much the same way with the teachers. He is also extremely hyper and has been since he was a toddler. Also, his aggression seems to be getting worse on a daily basis. My oldest daughter is bipolar and my other son is ADHD and raising them was so easy compared to my six year old.

( ) Does anyone know the difference?

I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

>

> I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How

can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?

> Thanks!

>

This is very interesting to me. My 14 year old is on medication for

BP, OCD and ADHD. I have observed similair behaviors in him that a

boy I know who has Aspergers exhibits. BP illness has ran in

throughout the generations in my husband's family. I wonder if a

person can be BP and Asperger at the same time. My son's BP started

with the rages when he was younger ( at eight years old) and then the

depression. Then he started having the grandiose thinking. " The

world was out to get him " The meds have sure helped with that. The

OCD is a totally different thing he has to deal with. Like counting

the number of ice cubes in his glass. It always has to be four and

he has to touch each one. Rearranging the books on his book shelf

for four hours and still being upset because the colors do not

match. Re-checking each math problem four times, turning 20 problems

into eighty. He is on a different med for this. It has helped but

not taken it totally away. At least he can get his school work done

a little easier. I don't know if this helped answer your questions.

Deb S.

[Guest guest]

's mother & her mother (other Grandma) are Bipolar & so was dx'd with it also but then he also is Asperger/Chronic Tic Disorder. Take care,Betty Deb <debscherrer2002@...> wrote: >> I am trying to find out the

difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?> Thanks! >This is very interesting to me. My 14 year old is on medication for BP, OCD and ADHD. I have observed similair behaviors in him that a boy I know who has Aspergers exhibits. BP illness has ran in throughout the generations in my husband's family. I wonder if a person can be BP and Asperger at the same time. My son's BP started with the rages when he was younger ( at eight years old) and then the depression. Then he started having the grandiose thinking. "The world was out to get him" The meds have sure helped with that. The OCD is a totally different thing he has to deal with. Like counting the number of ice cubes in his glass. It always has to be four and he has to touch each one. Rearranging the books on his book shelf for four hours and still being upset because the colors do not

match. Re-checking each math problem four times, turning 20 problems into eighty. He is on a different med for this. It has helped but not taken it totally away. At least he can get his school work done a little easier. I don't know if this helped answer your questions. Deb S.Take care,

Betty __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi how do you all know the tics are not byproducts of stimulant drugs such as concerta or are they related to aspergers thanks Jewel <truegrittle@...> wrote: 's mother & her mother (other Grandma) are Bipolar & so was dx'd with it also but then he also is Asperger/Chronic Tic Disorder. Take care,Betty Deb

<debscherrer2002 > wrote: >> I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?> Thanks! >This is very interesting to me. My 14 year old is on medication for BP, OCD and ADHD. I have observed similair behaviors in him that a boy I know who has Aspergers exhibits. BP illness has ran in throughout the generations in my husband's family. I wonder if a person can be BP and Asperger at the same time. My son's BP started with the rages when he was younger ( at eight years old) and then the depression. Then he started having the grandiose thinking. "The

world was out to get him" The meds have sure helped with that. The OCD is a totally different thing he has to deal with. Like counting the number of ice cubes in his glass. It always has to be four and he has to touch each one. Rearranging the books on his book shelf for four hours and still being upset because the colors do not match. Re-checking each math problem four times, turning 20 problems into eighty. He is on a different med for this. It has helped but not taken it totally away. At least he can get his school work done a little easier. I don't know if this helped answer your questions. Deb S. Take care, Betty __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I really don't know anything about tics other than Risperidal can cause them in some people.

Re: ( ) Re: Does anyone know the difference?

Hi

how do you all know the tics are not byproducts of stimulant drugs such as concerta or are they related to aspergers

thanks Jewel <truegrittle> wrote:

's mother & her mother (other Grandma) are Bipolar & so was dx'd with it also but then he also is Asperger/Chronic Tic Disorder. Take care,Betty

Deb <debscherrer2002> wrote:

>> I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?> Thanks! >This is very interesting to me. My 14 year old is on medication for BP, OCD and ADHD. I have observed similair behaviors in him that a boy I know who has Aspergers exhibits. BP illness has ran in throughout the generations in my husband's family. I wonder if a person can be BP and Asperger at the same time. My son's BP started with the rages when he was younger ( at eight years old) and then the depression. Then he started having the grandiose thinking. "The world was out to get him" The meds have sure helped with

that. The OCD is a totally different thing he has to deal with. Like counting the number of ice cubes in his glass. It always has to be four and he has to touch each one. Rearranging the books on his book shelf for four hours and still being upset because the colors do not match. Re-checking each math problem four times, turning 20 problems into eighty. He is on a different med for this. It has helped but not taken it totally away. At least he can get his school work done a little easier. I don't know if this helped answer your questions. Deb S.

Take care,

Betty

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

Most ADHD meds (or stimulants, in general) will say right on the "papers" that come with them, that if you have tics or Tourettes.....that takin "this" med may increase them. It's one of those things that you weigh the odds. My son has mild Tourette tics.......and the bennies outweighed the possiblilities of more tics. We werer lucky. They didn't increase. <lisa_leonard@...> wrote: I

really don't know anything about tics other than Risperidal can cause them in some people. Re: ( ) Re: Does anyone know the difference? Hi how do you all know the tics are not byproducts of stimulant drugs such as concerta or are they related to aspergers thanks Jewel <truegrittle> wrote: 's mother & her mother (other Grandma) are Bipolar

& so was dx'd with it also but then he also is Asperger/Chronic Tic Disorder. Take care,Betty Deb <debscherrer2002> wrote: >> I am trying to find out the difference between ODD and Bipolar. How can dr's tell if a behavior is from the childs AS or something else?> Thanks! >This is very interesting to me. My 14 year old is on medication for BP, OCD and ADHD. I have observed similair behaviors in him that a boy I know who has Aspergers exhibits. BP

illness has ran in throughout the generations in my husband's family. I wonder if a person can be BP and Asperger at the same time. My son's BP started with the rages when he was younger ( at eight years old) and then the depression. Then he started having the grandiose thinking. "The world was out to get him" The meds have sure helped with that. The OCD is a totally different thing he has to deal with. Like counting the number of ice cubes in his glass. It always has to be four and he has to touch each one. Rearranging the books on his book shelf for four hours and still being upset because the colors do not match. Re-checking each math problem four times, turning 20 problems into eighty. He is on a different med for this. It has helped but not taken it totally away. At least he can get his school work done a little easier. I don't know if this helped answer your questions. Deb

S. Take care, Betty ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __