Re: Need some BTDT/opinions on treatment direction/schools

[Guest guest]

Make sure to save this email somewhere so you have everything documented about your son's history!

It sounds like you need an advocate? We are in the process of getting one ourselves to navigate the system and know what to ask for. I think, having someone who is knowledgeable about the inner workings of your school system would be your best bet.

It is funny (better word is probably sad) that issues don't seem to be addressed until they are causing other people problems, not the child. I'm hopeful we are working towards a more proactive approach this year with Dylan, on paper it looks that way at least, but I'm holding judgment for awhile until I see it with my own eyes.

( ) Need some BTDT/opinions on treatment direction/schools

Hi all. I've been discussing this privately, but decided I want to askeverybody. OK, some background. I couldn't get my son anything at allin elementary, not even a 504. Everybody at the school just keptinsisting that my son was immature, defiant and had bad parenting. Itwas very different at the jr high; people were more respectful andlistened. And we at least got him a 504. Of course, part of this hadto do with the simple fact that I just figured out "what was wrong"and got an official dx just before he entered 7th grade.What really bugs me about how some schools handle AS/HFA is how theychoose who gets services and who doesn't. If the child is beingdisruptive or aggressive, they get services; if their behaviors areonly impacting themselves, even if they are quite dysfunctional, theydo not get services--especiall y if they have a high IQ and aren'tflunking grade-level classes either. This is so

wrong. It is likethey are choosing who gets services based on what is best for theteachers and other students, not the afflicted child's needs.I have a relative whom I'm pretty sure is on the upper end of thespectrum somewhere. She never got any interventions aside from alittle counseling since nobody knew back then. She's almost 30 andhas never been able to complete one semester of college, hold a joblong-term, or live on her own. So, I know my concerns are for real.Anyway, I was going to ask you for your opinion. I'm trying to decideif I should try for an IEP again. My son is in the 8th grade. He wasidentified as gifted in all 4 subject areas, but has had to drop downto the level classes in all subjects because he is not accommodated.In math, I think this was the right thing to do, because of how hisexecutive dysfunction/ processing speed/working memory affects him.But, the other subjects

I don't agree with. The school has justifiedit by claiming it was for behavior reasons. And they did a second IQtest, conveniently lowering all his gifted areas from the 98thpercentile to the 95th percentile. I'm sorry, but I can't help beingsuspicious-- it was just too convenient for them not to have to worryabout accommodating giftedness. They can just shove him into thelevel classes and say he's doing great.First of all, I wonder if there is even any point in getting an IEP.I mean, would they have a clue what he needs or be willing to do whathe really needs? And we just found a psychiatrist/ counselor team thatspecializes in Asperger, and I'm wondering if medication for anxietyand CBT therapy may be all he needs at this point. We won't reallyknow until we try it for awhile. But we don't have tons of time toplay with since he is in 8th grade.And, of course, the burning question is--what

exactly DOES he need?His 504 accommodations are actually not bad; the reason why they don'twork is that they don't provide any one-on-one coaching. For example,he has the accommodation for teachers to do frequent checks forunderstanding, but there is nothing to help him learn strategies to dothe frequent checks for understanding himself or to even understandwhy this is being done. That, and since the teachers are just generaled teachers in a regular classroom, I don't know how effectively thisis happening. He is performing considerably below his potential, eventhough he meets their minimum standards of grade-level. I'm wonderingif we should just focus on our private team working with him--will hebe able to generalize to the school environment? Anybody have any BTDT?One reason why I'm thinking about requesting another "full andindividual" SPED eval is because last time we didn't have his

officialdx and the school wouldn't do anything beyond a basic SPED eval(claimed they could tell he didn't need it). They've never done theautism supplement assessments like they are supposed to. So, it seemslike they would do the evaluation and include all my privateevaluations as input (I also have OT and speech evals I have haddone). He is classified for his 504 under AUT, so his classificationis not a problem.What do you think? I'm feeling very confused. I think I'm too closeto the situation to see the forest through the trees. So, I hope mywriting is not too confusing. I appreciate your time.I'm wondering if I should bring this to the attention of the schoolboard. I've never done that. I know enough about IDEA since I'vebeen advocating myself to know the school district has broken allkinds of laws. I have brought this to the attention of the schooldistrict SPED office and they fixed

some things. For example, I letthem know my son's teachers were treating his disabilities likebehavior problems in the 6th grade, and I have not had that problemsince. Of course, now they just don't do anything sometimes sincethey don't know what to do. We're in a fairly large school districtwith about 45,000 students, so I feel like they should have theresources to give my son a more appropriate education. My son and manyof the Asperger kids are falling through the cracks.Thanks for listening!Ruth

[Guest guest]

Hi Ruth,

My input to your question is this:

Schools will only offer the minimum of what they can get away with.

This is most obviously because of costs. They are not going to offer

to spend any additional money. In the same vein Teachers are not in

general going to volunteer to do more work. And I say this not

really as a critisism because the reality is that their job is tuff

to begin with and most teachers worry that extra accomodation for one

student will take away from the rest of the students. Same thing for

the money part.

With that being said, the school and the teachers have an obligation

to provide needed accomodation to students that qualify as disabled

according to the law. The key is that you as the parent have to be

the voice pushing for what you think you need. In your case this is

more difficult because (if I understand your post correctly) you are

looking for him to be in the gifted program.

I would recommend that you work with your doctors to get a very

specific outline from them as to how AS affects your son. For

example, if your son has executive function issues the doctors can

outline how that deficiency would affect test scores (ie needs more

time). Once you have this information outlined from the doctors you

can then use it in your arguement with the school.

If they are showing test results at the 95th percentile without any

accomodation then once the accomodation is in place he may test in

the proper percentile.

Based on my experiences as well as some friends that also have AS

children you must push for what you want and also recoginize that the

schools are bound by laws which can work for or against you. Your

best chances are to go into any meeting knowing what you want and

having evidence to prove its necessity.

Hope this helps.

Vickie

>

> Hi all. I've been discussing this privately, but decided I want to

ask

> everybody. OK, some background. I couldn't get my son anything at

all

> in elementary, not even a 504. Everybody at the school just kept

> insisting that my son was immature, defiant and had bad parenting.

It

> was very different at the jr high; people were more respectful and

> listened. And we at least got him a 504. Of course, part of this had

> to do with the simple fact that I just figured out " what was wrong "

> and got an official dx just before he entered 7th grade.

>

> What really bugs me about how some schools handle AS/HFA is how they

> choose who gets services and who doesn't. If the child is being

> disruptive or aggressive, they get services; if their behaviors are

> only impacting themselves, even if they are quite dysfunctional,

they

> do not get services--especially if they have a high IQ and aren't

> flunking grade-level classes either. This is so wrong. It is like

> they are choosing who gets services based on what is best for the

> teachers and other students, not the afflicted child's needs.

>

> I have a relative whom I'm pretty sure is on the upper end of the

> spectrum somewhere. She never got any interventions aside from a

> little counseling since nobody knew back then. She's almost 30 and

> has never been able to complete one semester of college, hold a job

> long-term, or live on her own. So, I know my concerns are for real.

>

> Anyway, I was going to ask you for your opinion. I'm trying to

decide

> if I should try for an IEP again. My son is in the 8th grade. He was

> identified as gifted in all 4 subject areas, but has had to drop

down

> to the level classes in all subjects because he is not accommodated.

> In math, I think this was the right thing to do, because of how his

> executive dysfunction/processing speed/working memory affects him.

> But, the other subjects I don't agree with. The school has justified

> it by claiming it was for behavior reasons. And they did a second IQ

> test, conveniently lowering all his gifted areas from the 98th

> percentile to the 95th percentile. I'm sorry, but I can't help being

> suspicious--it was just too convenient for them not to have to worry

> about accommodating giftedness. They can just shove him into the

> level classes and say he's doing great.

>

> First of all, I wonder if there is even any point in getting an IEP.

> I mean, would they have a clue what he needs or be willing to do

what

> he really needs? And we just found a psychiatrist/counselor team

that

> specializes in Asperger, and I'm wondering if medication for anxiety

> and CBT therapy may be all he needs at this point. We won't really

> know until we try it for awhile. But we don't have tons of time to

> play with since he is in 8th grade.

>

> And, of course, the burning question is--what exactly DOES he need?

> His 504 accommodations are actually not bad; the reason why they

don't

> work is that they don't provide any one-on-one coaching. For

example,

> he has the accommodation for teachers to do frequent checks for

> understanding, but there is nothing to help him learn strategies to

do

> the frequent checks for understanding himself or to even understand

> why this is being done. That, and since the teachers are just

general

> ed teachers in a regular classroom, I don't know how effectively

this

> is happening. He is performing considerably below his potential,

even

> though he meets their minimum standards of grade-level. I'm

wondering

> if we should just focus on our private team working with him--will

he

> be able to generalize to the school environment? Anybody have any

BTDT?

>

> One reason why I'm thinking about requesting another " full and

> individual " SPED eval is because last time we didn't have his

official

> dx and the school wouldn't do anything beyond a basic SPED eval

> (claimed they could tell he didn't need it). They've never done the

> autism supplement assessments like they are supposed to. So, it

seems

> like they would do the evaluation and include all my private

> evaluations as input (I also have OT and speech evals I have had

> done). He is classified for his 504 under AUT, so his classification

> is not a problem.

>

> What do you think? I'm feeling very confused. I think I'm too close

> to the situation to see the forest through the trees. So, I hope my

> writing is not too confusing. I appreciate your time.

>

> I'm wondering if I should bring this to the attention of the school

> board. I've never done that. I know enough about IDEA since I've

> been advocating myself to know the school district has broken all

> kinds of laws. I have brought this to the attention of the school

> district SPED office and they fixed some things. For example, I let

> them know my son's teachers were treating his disabilities like

> behavior problems in the 6th grade, and I have not had that problem

> since. Of course, now they just don't do anything sometimes since

> they don't know what to do. We're in a fairly large school district

> with about 45,000 students, so I feel like they should have the

> resources to give my son a more appropriate education. My son and

many

> of the Asperger kids are falling through the cracks.

>

> Thanks for listening!

>

> Ruth

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the feedback, and Vicky! I think I was clear as

mud. Getting rid of all the extra verbage, this is my question.

We just found a psychiatrist/counselor team that specializes in

Asperger, and I'm wondering if medication for anxiety and CBT therapy

may be all my 13yo Aspergian needs at this point. We won't really know

until we try it for awhile. I'm wondering if we should just focus on

our private team working with him (as opposed to spending all the time

and energy " fighting " the school)--will he be able to generalize to

the school environment? Anybody have any BTDT?

I would talk about what brought this all up, but I think it would

distract from my main question.

Ruth

[Guest guest]

<<What really bugs me about how some schools handle AS/HFA is how theychoose who gets services and who doesn't. If the child is beingdisruptive or aggressive, they get services; if their behaviors areonly impacting themselves, even if they are quite dysfunctional, theydo not get services--especially if they have a high IQ and aren'tflunking grade-level classes either. This is so wrong. It is likethey are choosing who gets services based on what is best for theteachers and other students, not the afflicted child's needs.>>

I think this is partially true. The other part is that the child have someone who advocates successfully for them. If they do, be it teacher, parent, professional advocate, the child will get what they need sooner, rather than later. I do agree it also depends a lot on the staff and how educated they are in the needs of AS kids. If they get HFA/AS, you will have an easier time getting help. If they don't, you will be swimming upstream for a long time.

Also, regarding behavior - it is true that the child who is throwing chairs gets the help. But in some cases, they do not get the help that they need after throwing chairs. If the school personel do not understand AS and it's behavioral implications, the staff can then decide he's just a brat and treat him like a misbehaving child instead of addressing his needs. So he does get attention, but not always the right kind of attention.

I agree it's not fair but that is why God created the mother advocate. <g> We are the equalizers in this equation.

<<So, I know my concerns are for real.>>

Most definitely - this is why it's called a "disability." It's not just a cute little quirk that people outgrow at age 18! These problems, if not remediated, can impact quality of life and ability to live and work independently no matter what IQ one has.

<<My son is in the 8th grade. He wasidentified as gifted in all 4 subject areas, but has had to drop downto the level classes in all subjects because he is not accommodated.>>

You should be comparing his work product and abilities with his potential and not with other kids. IOW, if you compare his work with Joe Neighbor and he is making a B in his classes, then there is not a problem. If you compare his output with his abilities, then he is sadly underperforming. Too often, they compare to the average kids and this is not what should be happening. I also don't always agree in using grades as an indicator of school success. It is one factor to consider in a bigger picture but grades can be subjective. Certainly, if he is passing, then that is one less thing to worry about. You know if he's getting an F that you have even more problems to deal with. But this is not the ultimate "test" as to whether he is doing well or not. You need to consider a variety of factors in determining what he needs. And so do they.

<<In math, I think this was the right thing to do, because of how hisexecutive dysfunction/processing speed/working memory affects him.>>

What are they doing to help remediate these problem areas? It's not so ok if these problems are part of his disability unless they are being addressed/remediated.

<<The school has justifiedit by claiming it was for behavior reasons. And they did a second IQtest, conveniently lowering all his gifted areas from the 98thpercentile to the 95th percentile. I'm sorry, but I can't help beingsuspicious--it was just too convenient for them not to have to worryabout accommodating giftedness. They can just shove him into thelevel classes and say he's doing great.>>

Works out well for them that way, doesn't it.

First, I would not let them lower my kids grade/level due to behavior. They need to address the behavioral needs of a child with a disability. I would push for an FBA and a resulting BP and not agree to lowering the grade/level. The school might do it anyway or refuse to do an FBA - but then I would be documenting the problems and the replies for my request for help and have to take it to the next level at that point - get an advocate, pay a professional advocate, get a lawyer. Also, I would argue (and I have done this, lol) that by putting him in classes that are obviously too easy for him, you are setting up more behavior problems. (My kid would sleep in class, wander around the room, have to use the bathroom seven times, sharpen his pencil forty times, etc. He was BORED!!!!!)

You also have the issue of equal opportunity for kids with disabilities. What programming do they provide to NT kids who are gifted? If your ds does not have equal access with appropriate accommodations for his disability, then you have discrimination. So for example, they move him out of gifted classes because he has "behaviors" that are related to his having AS - I see a big problem here.

Kids do not lose IQ points. If they do, you have a situation to deal with. You have to wonder if the first test was done appropriately. If it was, then you have to ask if he has a disibility that is not being remediated that is pulling his scores down lower. And finally, you have to be asking the staff what is going on because the kid is getting lower scores the longer he is in their educational system. Is this something they are comfortable with? I wouldn't be! I would want an outside IEE done at this point to re-establish what is going on and what his needs are. (And I did that one too!) You don't have to accept their testing either. Again, back to the IEE - if they want to say he isn't as smart as he used to be (and what school would want to admit that???) then I would request outside eval's to figure out what is going on and where he is at.

<<First of all, I wonder if there is even any point in getting an IEP.I mean, would they have a clue what he needs or be willing to do whathe really needs?>>

It's hard to tell the answer to this. Sometimes you get lucky and find staff that is willing to learn and wanting to help. Other times, you meet with resistance to everything. As to whether you should get an IEP or not depends upon if his needs are being met with the 504 or not.

<<And, of course, the burning question is--what exactly DOES he need?>>

You need a good multi-factored evaluation (MFE) to establish what his needs are.

<<His 504 accommodations are actually not bad; the reason why they don'twork is that they don't provide any one-on-one coaching.>>

Then you can establish over time that what they are doing (or not doing) is not working. This helps you advocate for something different, something more, something that does work. You can say, "Look, we've tried to 'ignore it and it will go away with maturity' method for the past 4 years. The problem remains. We need to try something different."

<<That, and since the teachers are just generaled teachers in a regular classroom, I don't know how effectively thisis happening. >>

Ask for data. They probably never bother to take data but if this is some kind of goal or accommodation, I would want to know if this is working for him or not. So I would ask them how it's working, how they implement this and ask to see data.

<<He is performing considerably below his potential, eventhough he meets their minimum standards of grade-level. I'm wonderingif we should just focus on our private team working with him--will hebe able to generalize to the school environment? Anybody have any BTDT?>>

My BTDT: With my ds, I finally pulled him out of school and we e-school. We do have a full gifted program here at our local school but they do not "do" special needs (2E) kids. I felt it was important to saving my ds's sanity to pull him out vs. argue/advocate with them. I could have gone either way. I felt confident that I could have gotten him what he needed in the end. But I weighed his current state with the time it will take to "break new ground" and I felt he needed the energy and attention right now. It's really tough to deal with the 2E issues and if you don't have gifted people who "get" disabilities, I don't know how you can manuever through the system without choking anyone along the way. <g> Our director of gifted programming was just so dismissive and rude towards me and towards the very idea that anyone could be gifted and LD that I just felt it was more worth my time to educate him than to educate her (i.e. he was educable, she was not.) I mean, she's wrong, and I had plenty to back that up with. But ultimately, I felt I should have been fighting this fight years earlier and I wasn't. I was too busy dealing with my ds learning to speak English and not worrying so much about the gifted parts. It is my own fault in that I should have been paying attention to both sides of the whole. (And I do blame the district due to their lack of understanding about 2E kids as well) But his deficits were so great that I just was always gripped with fear - what if he never learns to talk? What if he never can have a conversation with someone? etc. Anyway, by the time he caught up to the place where being gifted meant more, I was too slow to get on it and I should have just done more, sooner. He was in 4/5th grade before I calmed down enough to say - hey, he has these other gifted needs going on too. I don't know how else to explain it. He spent a lot of years being bored and there was no good reason for that. Except that the school had no clue how to work with a 2E kid and I didn't know enough about it myself to have advocated better than I did. So I have a lot of regrets at this end.

<<One reason why I'm thinking about requesting another "full andindividual" SPED eval is because last time we didn't have his officialdx and the school wouldn't do anything beyond a basic SPED eval(claimed they could tell he didn't need it). They've never done theautism supplement assessments like they are supposed to. So, it seemslike they would do the evaluation and include all my privateevaluations as input (I also have OT and speech evals I have haddone). He is classified for his 504 under AUT, so his classificationis not a problem.>>

Of course you should get a full evaluation and it should include "ALL" areas of concern. And again, back to the IEE - if they refuse to do certain testing or if they do testing that does not reflect his needs, you need to push for an IEE and get a complete unbiased evaluation to determine what his needs really are. As for them refusing to test in areas related to autism, I would just say do not be dismissed by them - they know so little about autism to begin with. Remind yourself that you are an expert at AS, at least in as much as it affects your child and his needs. So don't let anyone else come in and erase that or dismiss these concerns. Bring plenty of examples with you to back up everything you are saying. Make lists of examples, bring work samples, document teacher comments, etc. Make a list of all the trite dismissing phrases they are going to come up with (after all these years, you know pretty much what they will say!) and you come up with a reply/response in advance of the meeting. Then when they say something, you are prepared with a response. And you will feel very powerful being so prepared! A plus! I know one mom who made visual slides, lol. It worked well for her. <g>

<<What do you think? I'm feeling very confused. I think I'm too closeto the situation to see the forest through the trees. So, I hope mywriting is not too confusing. I appreciate your time.>>

I think a good evaluation can help you see the forest. with good solid data, you can form a better opinion about his needs. without this, you can only go on gut feelings. Not that gut feelings don't count - but data is better and more convincing to the non-believers.

<< Of course, now they just don't do anything sometimes sincethey don't know what to do. >>

This is where you come in! You have to go in and help them find answers when they might just give up and pretend the problem doesn't exist. he won't get help unless you push for it. Some years you get people who want to help and want to learn and other years you get people who could care less. The difference is YOU. You show up and advocate and make it matter. You don't let them belittle the problems or concerns. You show up knowing they are gonna roll their eyes and think, "Not her again...." You are the one constant in his education through good and bad. And you can also see the end result of getting no help for him via just seeing your relative be unable to live independently. Teachers come and go and they matter a lot - but you will always be there and you have to advocate when they might not see the end result.

<<I know enough about IDEA since I'vebeen advocating myself to know the school district has broken allkinds of laws. I have brought this to the attention of the schooldistrict SPED office and they fixed some things. For example, I letthem know my son's teachers were treating his disabilities likebehavior problems in the 6th grade, and I have not had that problemsince.We're in a fairly large school districtwith about 45,000 students, so I feel like they should have theresources to give my son a more appropriate education. My son and manyof the Asperger kids are falling through the cracks.>>

Ruth, sounds like you need to be networking with these other parents. The more parents united together bringing up needs and problems, the better. As parents, you could bring speakers to your area to present to teachers. You could raise money and buy dvd's, books, train to be advocates yourselves and help new parents who come along. But for now, just knowing other parents in similar situations can help you make your point. I would network. It can only help. And who knows? Maybe you will find a parent who has already been down this path and can help you?

RoxannaYou're UniqueJust like everyone else...

( ) Need some BTDT/opinions on treatment direction/schools

..

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[Guest guest]

> Also, regarding behavior - it is true that the child who is throwing

chairs gets the help. But in some cases, they do not get the help

that they need after throwing chairs. If the school personel do not

understand AS and it's behavioral implications, the staff can then

decide he's just a brat and treat him like a misbehaving child instead

of addressing his needs. So he does get attention, but not always the

right kind of attention.

ITA. This is why I'm wondering if there is any point in getting an

IEP. I feel like I've learned to advocate about as well as it can be

done. Some teachers just cannot be reached. I think it takes a

certain ability to take perspective to understand autism, and some

people can do it and some can't. Training doesn't necessarily help.

There is no way to measure this ability, so there is no way to demand

such a teacher. I used to be really angry about this, but I've come

to see that I have to accept other's limitations just as I expect them

to accept my child's limitations.

> You should be comparing his work product and abilities with his

potential and not with other kids.

As a parent, of course. And you'd think the school would have to--and

in some states they do--but our state focuses more on whether they are

working at grade level or not as an indicator of success.

> <<In math, I think this was the right thing to do, because of how his

> executive dysfunction/processing speed/working memory affects him.

> >>

> What are they doing to help remediate these problem areas? It's not

so ok if these problems are part of his disability unless they are

being addressed/remediated.

It's okay if they determine that there is no serious problem. Which

is what they have done since he is working at grade level or above, as

far as special teaching goes. They don't consider being bored and

humiliated as being an issue. They also don't feel that these

problems are something special ed can help with. He has 504

accommodations to have organizational support, additional time on

tests and for assignments, frequent checks for understanding during

class, etc.

> First, I would not let them lower my kids grade/level due to behavior.

Yes, this was why we went out and got our own evaluations done. Since

we didn't have a dx at the time, there wasn't much we could say.

> And finally, you have to be asking the staff what is going on

because the kid is getting lower scores the longer he is in their

educational system. Is this something they are comfortable with? I

wouldn't be!

And of course, this is the central to our disagreement. As long as he

is performing grade level or above, they consider him to be successful

in the classroom. Although people at the school are split too. Some

agree that the fact that his grades and achievement scores are going

down are a concern, whereas others are just looking at the bottom line

numbers. The former are outnumbered and not the ones with the power

to get the decision made.

> I would want an outside IEE done at this point to re-establish what

is going on and what his needs are.

Well, we've already done all this. The bottom line is they won't do

any of the recommendations since they don't consider him eligible for

services.

> Ask for data. They probably never bother to take data but if this

is some kind of goal or accommodation, I would want to know if this is

working for him or not. So I would ask them how it's working, how

they implement this and ask to see data.

You don't get to do this kind of stuff with a 504. They observed him

for several weeks prior to deciding on the 504, but it would be hard

to get them to do that again.

Thanks Roxanne!

Ruth

[Guest guest]

>

> Can anyone help me to understand some of these abbreviations and

> mumbo jumbo?

Hi . I'll give this a start. IEP stands for individualized

education plan. It is special education and it means your child is

receiving some instruction from special education staff. A 504 is

what kids get who have disabilities but they don't need special

teaching. They do NOT get any instruction from special ed staff.

Rather general ed teachers give them accommodations. IEE stands for

independent education evaluation or something like that. You get one

when you are not happy with the school's evaluation. The school is

supposed to pay for it, but you can pay for it yourself if you want.

Ruth

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't "not" get an IEP because some teachers won't learn. I would get one and work hard to educate teachers. My ds had a teacher a few years ago who just wouldn't get it. Even the sped director agreed the teacher was causing problems and not following the iEP. I doubt the teacher ever got it but he did follow the IEP after he was talked to by them. If you have a well written IEP, there are less chances of any teacher, whether good or bad, getting past those goals/accommodations and modifications. You may have to step in and speak up but that is not that hard to do.

Without the IEP, you are arguing with teachers who do not "get it" and you have nothing concrete with which to help you advocate. With an IEP, you can force the issue whether they want to get on board or not. I also have had many conversations during IEP meetings where they steer my kid to teachers who are better at dealing with things like this. And also, if your school has an autism unit, your ds could already be tracked in a group of teachers who have special training in autism, lessening the problem of getting teachers who won't understand or cooperate.

Your state focuses on grade level because they are being allowed to do so. The law is federal and applies to all states. The law has requirements for evaluations and how to use those evaluations. You can look them up at www.wrightslaw.com Here is just one good article on the " effect" --> http://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/ltrs/ltr_Pat_falling_IQscores.html

But they are required to use a variety of factors and evaluations in determining eligibility. It can't be based on just one thing such as classroom grades. They can do it, and they obviously did that, but it's not legal to do that. So it's up to you to complain and let them know that you want these other factors considered in the decision. Go to the head of sped and up the food chain.

Here is another article re: 2E --> http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/ld.gifted.heitin.doc

Read this one as well --> http://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/stranger/brody.html

This is my favorite one --> http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/elig.sld.osep.felton.htm

You did get an outside evaluation but how long ago was that done? And that is not the same as having an IEE done. There is something more when you get them to pay for an outside evaluation that makes it more "serious" than your eval. So I would get a full eval done by the school, then an IEE to cover all the things they "refuse" to test.

I don't "do" 504's but if they promised to provide a service, then they need to take data on that service. How else do we show it's being done? How do we know it's working? If it is working, how successful is it? If nobody has to answer to those questions, then what is the point? Admit it's a worthless piece of paper. And I would have this in writing - this whole conversation about lack of data. If you ask and they refuse, then there is a problem.

As for being hard to get them to do it again - that's nonsense. Request a full educational evaluation and part of that is observation. If they refused to observe, I would have someone observe for me. Getting an observation done would be the easiest of them all.

RoxannaYou're UniqueJust like everyone else...

Re: ( ) Need some BTDT/opinions on treatment direction/schools

> Also, regarding behavior - it is true that the child who is throwingchairs gets the help. But in some cases, they do not get the helpthat they need after throwing chairs. If the school personel do notunderstand AS and it's behavioral implications, the staff can thendecide he's just a brat and treat him like a misbehaving child insteadof addressing his needs. So he does get attention, but not always theright kind of attention. ITA. This is why I'm wondering if there is any point in getting anIEP. I feel like I've learned to advocate about as well as it can bedone. Some teachers just cannot be reached. I think it takes acertain ability to take perspective to understand autism, and somepeople can do it and some can't. Training doesn't necessarily help. There is no way to measure this ability, so there is no way to demandsuch a teacher. I used to be really angry about this, but I've cometo see that I have to accept other's limitations just as I expect themto accept my child's limitations.> You should be comparing his work product and abilities with hispotential and not with other kids. As a parent, of course. And you'd think the school would have to--andin some states they do--but our state focuses more on whether they areworking at grade level or not as an indicator of success. > <<In math, I think this was the right thing to do, because of how his> executive dysfunction/processing speed/working memory affects him.> >>> What are they doing to help remediate these problem areas? It's notso ok if these problems are part of his disability unless they arebeing addressed/remediated. It's okay if they determine that there is no serious problem. Whichis what they have done since he is working at grade level or above, asfar as special teaching goes. They don't consider being bored andhumiliated as being an issue. They also don't feel that theseproblems are something special ed can help with. He has 504accommodations to have organizational support, additional time ontests and for assignments, frequent checks for understanding duringclass, etc.> First, I would not let them lower my kids grade/level due to behavior. Yes, this was why we went out and got our own evaluations done. Sincewe didn't have a dx at the time, there wasn't much we could say.> And finally, you have to be asking the staff what is going onbecause the kid is getting lower scores the longer he is in theireducational system. Is this something they are comfortable with? Iwouldn't be! And of course, this is the central to our disagreement. As long as heis performing grade level or above, they consider him to be successfulin the classroom. Although people at the school are split too. Someagree that the fact that his grades and achievement scores are goingdown are a concern, whereas others are just looking at the bottom linenumbers. The former are outnumbered and not the ones with the powerto get the decision made.> I would want an outside IEE done at this point to re-establish whatis going on and what his needs are. Well, we've already done all this. The bottom line is they won't doany of the recommendations since they don't consider him eligible forservices.> Ask for data. They probably never bother to take data but if thisis some kind of goal or accommodation, I would want to know if this isworking for him or not. So I would ask them how it's working, howthey implement this and ask to see data.You don't get to do this kind of stuff with a 504. They observed himfor several weeks prior to deciding on the 504, but it would be hardto get them to do that again.Thanks Roxanne!Ruth

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[Guest guest]

Ruth,

thanks for clearing all that up for me. gina

-- In , " r_woman2 " <me2ruth@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Can anyone help me to understand some of these abbreviations and

> > mumbo jumbo?

>

> Hi . I'll give this a start. IEP stands for individualized

> education plan. It is special education and it means your child is

> receiving some instruction from special education staff. A 504 is

> what kids get who have disabilities but they don't need special

> teaching. They do NOT get any instruction from special ed staff.

> Rather general ed teachers give them accommodations. IEE stands for

> independent education evaluation or something like that. You get one

> when you are not happy with the school's evaluation. The school is

> supposed to pay for it, but you can pay for it yourself if you want.

>

> Ruth

>

[Guest guest]

Robin, thanks for taking the time to help explain this to me, gina

> >

> > > Also, regarding behavior - it is true that the child who is

> throwing

> > chairs gets the help. But in some cases, they do not get the help

> > that they need after throwing chairs. If the school personel do

not

> > understand AS and it's behavioral implications, the staff can then

> > decide he's just a brat and treat him like a misbehaving child

> instead

> > of addressing his needs. So he does get attention, but not always

> the

> > right kind of attention.

> >

> > ITA. This is why I'm wondering if there is any point in getting an

> > IEP. I feel like I've learned to advocate about as well as it can

> be

> > done. Some teachers just cannot be reached. I think it takes a

> > certain ability to take perspective to understand autism, and some

> > people can do it and some can't. Training doesn't necessarily

> help.

> > There is no way to measure this ability, so there is no way to

> demand

> > such a teacher. I used to be really angry about this, but I've

come

> > to see that I have to accept other's limitations just as I expect

> them

> > to accept my child's limitations.

> >

> > > You should be comparing his work product and abilities with his

> > potential and not with other kids.

> >

> > As a parent, of course. And you'd think the school would have to--

> and

> > in some states they do--but our state focuses more on whether

they

> are

> > working at grade level or not as an indicator of success.

> >

> > > <<In math, I think this was the right thing to do, because of

how

> his

> > > executive dysfunction/ processing speed/working memory affects

him.

> > > >>

> > > What are they doing to help remediate these problem areas? It's

> not

> > so ok if these problems are part of his disability unless they are

> > being addressed/remediate d.

> >

> > It's okay if they determine that there is no serious problem.

Which

> > is what they have done since he is working at grade level or

above,

> as

> > far as special teaching goes. They don't consider being bored and

> > humiliated as being an issue. They also don't feel that these

> > problems are something special ed can help with. He has 504

> > accommodations to have organizational support, additional time on

> > tests and for assignments, frequent checks for understanding

during

> > class, etc.

> >

> > > First, I would not let them lower my kids grade/level due to

> behavior.

> >

> > Yes, this was why we went out and got our own evaluations done.

> Since

> > we didn't have a dx at the time, there wasn't much we could say.

> >

> > > And finally, you have to be asking the staff what is going on

> > because the kid is getting lower scores the longer he is in their

> > educational system. Is this something they are comfortable with? I

> > wouldn't be!

> >

> > And of course, this is the central to our disagreement. As long

as

> he

> > is performing grade level or above, they consider him to be

> successful

> > in the classroom. Although people at the school are split too.

> Some

> > agree that the fact that his grades and achievement scores are

going

> > down are a concern, whereas others are just looking at the bottom

> line

> > numbers. The former are outnumbered and not the ones with the

power

> > to get the decision made.

> >

> > > I would want an outside IEE done at this point to re-establish

> what

> > is going on and what his needs are.

> >

> > Well, we've already done all this. The bottom line is they won't

do

> > any of the recommendations since they don't consider him eligible

> for

> > services.

> >

> > > Ask for data. They probably never bother to take data but if

this

> > is some kind of goal or accommodation, I would want to know if

this

> is

> > working for him or not. So I would ask them how it's working, how

> > they implement this and ask to see data.

> >

> > You don't get to do this kind of stuff with a 504. They observed

> him

> > for several weeks prior to deciding on the 504, but it would be

hard

> > to get them to do that again.

> >

> > Thanks Roxanne!

> >

> > Ruth

> >

>

[Guest guest]

No problem. Hope some of the things I sent (written by others) he he....helped.

Robin

From: gina <ginak1117@...>Subject: ( ) Re: Need some BTDT/opinions on treatment direction/schools Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 6:20 PM

Robin, thanks for taking the time to help explain this to me, gina> > > > > Also, regarding behavior - it is true that the child who is > throwing> > chairs gets the help. But in some cases, they do not get the help> > that they need after throwing chairs. If the school personel do not> > understand AS and it's behavioral implications, the staff can then> > decide he's just a brat and treat him like a misbehaving child > instead> > of addressing his needs. So he does get attention, but not always > the> > right kind of attention. > > > > ITA. This is why I'm wondering if there is any point in getting an> > IEP. I feel like I've learned to advocate about as well as it can > be> > done. Some teachers just cannot be reached. I think it takes a>

> certain ability to take perspective to understand autism, and some> > people can do it and some can't. Training doesn't necessarily > help. > > There is no way to measure this ability, so there is no way to > demand> > such a teacher. I used to be really angry about this, but I've come> > to see that I have to accept other's limitations just as I expect > them> > to accept my child's limitations.> > > > > You should be comparing his work product and abilities with his> > potential and not with other kids. > > > > As a parent, of course. And you'd think the school would have to--> and> > in some states they do--but our state focuses more on whether they > are> > working at grade level or not as an indicator of success. > > > > > <<In math, I think this was

the right thing to do, because of how > his> > > executive dysfunction/ processing speed/working memory affects him.> > > >>> > > What are they doing to help remediate these problem areas? It's > not> > so ok if these problems are part of his disability unless they are> > being addressed/remediate d. > > > > It's okay if they determine that there is no serious problem. Which> > is what they have done since he is working at grade level or above, > as> > far as special teaching goes. They don't consider being bored and> > humiliated as being an issue. They also don't feel that these> > problems are something special ed can help with. He has 504> > accommodations to have organizational support, additional time on> > tests and for assignments, frequent checks for understanding

during> > class, etc.> > > > > First, I would not let them lower my kids grade/level due to > behavior. > > > > Yes, this was why we went out and got our own evaluations done. > Since> > we didn't have a dx at the time, there wasn't much we could say.> > > > > And finally, you have to be asking the staff what is going on> > because the kid is getting lower scores the longer he is in their> > educational system. Is this something they are comfortable with? I> > wouldn't be! > > > > And of course, this is the central to our disagreement. As long as > he> > is performing grade level or above, they consider him to be > successful> > in the classroom. Although people at the school are split too. > Some> > agree that the fact that his grades and

achievement scores are going> > down are a concern, whereas others are just looking at the bottom > line> > numbers. The former are outnumbered and not the ones with the power> > to get the decision made.> > > > > I would want an outside IEE done at this point to re-establish > what> > is going on and what his needs are. > > > > Well, we've already done all this. The bottom line is they won't do> > any of the recommendations since they don't consider him eligible > for> > services.> > > > > Ask for data. They probably never bother to take data but if this> > is some kind of goal or accommodation, I would want to know if this > is> > working for him or not. So I would ask them how it's working, how> > they implement this and ask to see data.> >

> > You don't get to do this kind of stuff with a 504. They observed > him> > for several weeks prior to deciding on the 504, but it would be hard> > to get them to do that again.> > > > Thanks Roxanne!> > > > Ruth> >>