Re: emotionally disturbed label

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that emotional disturbance means that what your child does

might be " behavioral " which means that " consequences " must follow. I had one

school say this of my son and this came after other doctors, psychologists,

experts etc. all said, " He has asperger syndrome but he's well adjusted. "

Emotional disturbance and well-adjusted don't seem to be compatible. Anyway, I

would be worried because it might make the school think they can blame

everything on emotional disturbance and not do what he really needs. I would

want to know how they made this diagnosis and why they changed it without

telling you.

Miriam

>

> I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase

> " emotionally disturbed " was added to my son's IEP as

> a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about

> this at the time, which is troubling.

>

> I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering

> if this is one that could be a problem for him in the

> future.

>

> Willa

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase

> " emotionally disturbed " was added to my son's IEP as

> a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about

> this at the time, which is troubling.

>

> I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering

> if this is one that could be a problem for him in the

> future.

I know in my state, Texas, ED affects what services one is qualified for.

Really, I guess you could say that about any dx, but ED in particular excludes

kids from things that an AS kid should be qualified for. Not to mention the

fact that it most likely is not the truth of the matter. I think you would know

if your son had been determined to be ED by some professional!

Ruth

[Guest guest]

When my d was in public school the people there told me that the labels where either e. d. Or learning disability and that the only option for her was e.d. Of course I did not accept it, AS is not emotional d. The ed plan for her would have meant detriment so, that was the end of public school for her. I was not willing to waste our time and damage her future. That was 6 years ago and I will never regret my decision.The level E. Dist. Is equivocal to say the least.Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeedFrom: "Miriam" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:42:20 -0000< >Subject: ( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label My understanding is that emotional disturbance means that what your child does might be " behavioral " which means that " consequences " must follow. I had one school say this of my son and this came after other doctors, psychologists, experts etc. all said, " He has asperger syndrome but he's well adjusted. " Emotional disturbance and well-adjusted don't seem to be compatible. Anyway, I would be worried because it might make the school think they can blame everything on emotional disturbance and not do what he really needs. I would want to know how they made this diagnosis and why they changed it without telling you. Miriam > > I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase > " emotionally disturbed " was added to my son's IEP as > a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about > this at the time, which is troubling. > > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering > if this is one that could be a problem for him in the > future. > > Willa >

[Guest guest]

Willa, First, the school staff cannot just "add a diagnosis to the IEP". There are federal and state laws that dictate specific criteria for school psychologists to follow, in order to CERTIFY not diagnose, a student. Doctors diagnose, schools certify. This difference is very important.

Schools certify a students disability under the Administrative Rules for Special Education. These Rules also require that parents are given Notice of testing, the form varies from state to state, but you receive papers to sign indicating your agreement to the testing. A psychologist has to test and evaluate the child, then determine his eligibility for SpEd, based on the Rules, and write a formal legible report, detailing all the specific testing results and recommendations. Any other professional involved in the testing also is required to submit a detailed report. Gen ed teacher, sped tchr, speech, ot, pt, nurse behavior intervention, anyone who works with or has potential to work with the child may be involved.

THEN, you are invited to a Multidisciplinary Evaluation Team meeting (MET, we call them) to present the findings and recommendations for certification to you! Then, you move into the IEP, even at another later meeting, to determine eligibility, accomadations, classroon placement and goals.

If this did not happen then you better talk directly to the SpEd Director. Better yet, explain it in writing, sending copies to Superintendent, and State Dept of Ed. I guarantee they will jump through the specific hoops!

Jillian

From: Miriam <callis4773@...>Subject: ( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 8:42 PM

My understanding is that emotional disturbance means that what your child does might be "behavioral" which means that "consequences" must follow. I had one school say this of my son and this came after other doctors, psychologists, experts etc. all said, "He has asperger syndrome but he's well adjusted." Emotional disturbance and well-adjusted don't seem to be compatible. Anyway, I would be worried because it might make the school think they can blame everything on emotional disturbance and not do what he really needs. I would want to know how they made this diagnosis and why they changed it without telling you.Miriam>> I just discovered that a few months ago, the

phrase> "emotionally disturbed" was added to my son's IEP as> a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about> this at the time, which is troubling.> > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering> if this is one that could be a problem for him in the> future.> > Willa>

[Guest guest]

Hi Willa, my name is Irene from N.M. and I am new to the group! My 6 yr. old son

was diagnosed about 2 months ago with aspbergers syndrome and they just started

services a week ago. I attended an IEP for my son last week and they did not

label him as behavioral, but they did tell me that Aspbergers is not on the

autism spectrum. Which was confusing to me because the Child Psychiatrist said

it was, but the teachers are saying it's not!! Anyway, I would also be worried

that they are labeling your son as ANYTHING without your knowledge. I

personally, hate labels. I refuse to label my child and let people think he

cannot do something. My kids will grow up believing in themselves and knowing

they can do whatever they set out to do and not let anyone hold them back.

> >

> > I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase

> > " emotionally disturbed " was added to my son's IEP as

> > a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about

> > this at the time, which is troubling.

> >

> > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering

> > if this is one that could be a problem for him in the

> > future.

> >

> > Willa

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am going to add my 2 cents to this discusstion.

I think that it is really important to make the distiction between diagnosing a

medical/neurological condition and identifing a catagory of disablility for the

purposes of special ed or support services.

No one at the school including a school psychologist can diagnose a child with

anything. They can only evaluate children to see if they meet the definition of

a disablity according to the IDEA law.

These catagories are:

• autism;

• deaf-blindness;

• deafness;

• emotional disturbance;

• hearing impairment;

• mental retardation;

• multiple disabilities;

• orthopedic impairment;

• other health impairment;

• specific learning disability;

• speech or language impairment;

• traumatic brain injury; or

• visual impairment (including blindness).

The autism catagory is defined as

1. Autism...

....means a developmental disability significantly affecting verbal and

nonverbal communication and social interaction, generally evident before age

three, that adversely affects a child's educational performance. Other

characteristics often associated with autism are engaging in repetitive

activities and stereotyped movements, esistance to environmental change or

change in daily routines, and unusual responses to sensory experiences. The term

autism does not apply if the child's educational performance is adversely

affected primarily because the child has an emotional disturbance,as defined in

#4 below. A child who shows the characteristics of autism after age 3 could be

diagnosed as having autism if the criteria above are satisfied.

The Emotional Disturbance catagory is:

4. Emotional Disturbance...

....means a condition exhibiting one or more of the following characteristics

over a long period of time and to a marked degree that adversely affects a

child's educational performance: (a) An inability to learn that cannot be

explained by intellectual, sensory, or health factors. ( An inability to build

or maintain satisfactory interpersonal relationships with peers and teachers.

© Inappropriate types of behavior or feelings under normal circumstances. (d)

A general pervasive mood of

unhappiness or depression. (e) A tendency to develop physical symptoms

or fears associated with personal or school problems.

The term includes schizophrenia. The term does not apply to children who are

socially maladjusted, unless it is determined that they

have an emotional disturbance.

It is my observation that most of our HFA and Aspie kids can qualify for special

ed under either catagory depending on what problems and issues present

themselves. I would assume that if your childs IEP is catagorized as ED that

the evaluations concluded this was the area in which he qualified. You could

certainly ask why the catagory was listed as ED and not autism.

My son was originally evaluated in kindergarden and at that time he qualified

under the IDEA catagory of developemental delay which in Wisconsin is limited to

age 6. At that point he was re-evaluated and met the criteria for ED (in WI it

is called EBD - Emotional Behavioral disturbance). At that time the IEP team

went through the eligiblity criteria and determined if he met the definition. I

was a member of that team and agreed to the placement. I don't know if your

state laws work the same. Since then we have gotten a diagnosis of PDD-NOS/Mild

Aspergers and I expect the next time we are recquired to re-evaluate we will

change the catagory to Autism.

Vickie

>

> >

> > I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase

> > " emotionally disturbed " was added to my son's IEP as

> > a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about

> > this at the time, which is troubling.

> >

> > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering

> > if this is one that could be a problem for him in the

> > future.

> >

> > Willa

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Can you come to my son's next IEP review? Maybe you and Roxanna can fly in together!

"Over-optimism is waiting for you ship to come in when you haven't sent one out."

From: Vickie Boehnlein <baneline@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:19:12 PMSubject: ( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label

I am going to add my 2 cents to this discusstion. I think that it is really important to make the distiction between diagnosing a medical/neurologica l condition and identifing a catagory of disablility for the purposes of special ed or support services.No one at the school including a school psychologist can diagnose a child with anything. They can only evaluate children to see if they meet the definition of a disablity according to the IDEA law.These catagories are:• autism;• deaf-blindness;• deafness;• emotional disturbance;• hearing impairment;• mental retardation;• multiple disabilities;• orthopedic impairment;• other health impairment;• specific learning disability;• speech or language impairment;• traumatic brain injury; or• visual impairment (including blindness).The autism catagory is defined as 1. Autism......means a

developmental disability significantly affecting verbal andnonverbal communication and social interaction, generally evident before age three, that adversely affects a child's educational performance. Other characteristics often associated with autism are engaging in repetitive activities and stereotyped movements, esistance to environmental change or change in daily routines, and unusual responses to sensory experiences. The term autism does not apply if the child's educational performance is adversely affected primarily because the child has an emotional disturbance, as defined in #4 below. A child who shows the characteristics of autism after age 3 could be diagnosed as having autism if the criteria above are satisfied.The Emotional Disturbance catagory is:4. Emotional Disturbance. .....means a condition exhibiting one or more of the following characteristics over a long period of time and to a marked degree that adversely affects

a child's educational performance: (a) An inability to learn that cannot be explained by intellectual, sensory, or health factors. ( An inability to build or maintain satisfactory interpersonal relationships with peers and teachers. © Inappropriate types of behavior or feelings under normal circumstances. (d) A general pervasive mood ofunhappiness or depression. (e) A tendency to develop physical symptomsor fears associated with personal or school problems.The term includes schizophrenia. The term does not apply to children who are socially maladjusted, unless it is determined that theyhave an emotional disturbance.It is my observation that most of our HFA and Aspie kids can qualify for special ed under either catagory depending on what problems and issues present themselves. I would assume that if your childs IEP is catagorized as ED that the evaluations concluded this was the area in which he qualified. You could certainly

ask why the catagory was listed as ED and not autism. My son was originally evaluated in kindergarden and at that time he qualified under the IDEA catagory of developemental delay which in Wisconsin is limited to age 6. At that point he was re-evaluated and met the criteria for ED (in WI it is called EBD - Emotional Behavioral disturbance) . At that time the IEP team went through the eligiblity criteria and determined if he met the definition. I was a member of that team and agreed to the placement. I don't know if your state laws work the same. Since then we have gotten a diagnosis of PDD-NOS/Mild Aspergers and I expect the next time we are recquired to re-evaluate we will change the catagory to Autism.Vickie> > >> > I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase> > "emotionally disturbed" was added to my son's

IEP as> > a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about> > this at the time, which is troubling.> > > > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering> > if this is one that could be a problem for him in the> > future.> > > > Willa> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Irene, this topic can be confusing because even the doctors keep changing

their mind on how to classify things. Technically Aspergers and Autism are two

separate catagories that fall under the heading of PDD (Pervasive Developmental

Disorder),however it has commonly begun to be referred to as Autism Spectrum

also.

Regardless the IDEA law considers Autism/PDD to be a catagory. Here is a link

that I got right of the US Department of Education web sight that talkes about

the catagory:

http://www.nichcy.org/Disabilities/Specific/Pages/Autism.aspx

So although tecnically Aspergers is not Autism it is covered under the same IDEA

Law in the same catagory.

Vickie

> > >

> > > I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase

> > > " emotionally disturbed " was added to my son's IEP as

> > > a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about

> > > this at the time, which is troubling.

> > >

> > > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering

> > > if this is one that could be a problem for him in the

> > > future.

> > >

> > > Willa

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I am going to add my 2 cents to this discusstion.

>

> I think that it is really important to make the distiction between diagnosing

a medical/neurological condition and identifing a catagory of disablility for

the purposes of special ed or support services.

>

> No one at the school including a school psychologist can diagnose a child with

anything. They can only evaluate children to see if they meet the definition of

a disablity according to the IDEA law.

>

Are you sure about that? My son has only been definitely dx'ed by the psych at

school. His regular ped said 'maybe yes, go see the dev. psych'. Dev pysch. said

'maybe yes, go see the school for an eval'. School pysch. said 'definitely yes,

welcome aboard...'. So that is the only source of his dx.

TJ

[Guest guest]

On Dec 19, 7:10am, " Vickie Boehnlein " wrote:

}

} It is my observation that most of our HFA and Aspie kids can qualify for sp=

} ecial ed under either catagory depending on what problems and issues presen=

} t themselves. I would assume that if your childs IEP is catagorized as ED =

} that the evaluations concluded this was the area in which he qualified. Yo=

} u could certainly ask why the catagory was listed as ED and not autism.=20

It's actually listed as both. Autism is primary, ED is now listed

as secondary.

Willa

[Guest guest]

>

> Are you sure about that? My son has only been definitely dx'ed by the psych at

school. His regular ped said 'maybe yes, go see the dev. psych'. Dev pysch. said

'maybe yes, go see the school for an eval'. School pysch. said 'definitely yes,

welcome aboard...'. So that is the only source of his dx.

Hi TJ. You're both correct, in ways. There are school dx and medical dx. They

aren't necessarily the same thing. As you might guess, one is for educational

purposes and one is for medical purposes. Personally, I wouldn't ever let a

school dx be the only thing I was going on. Schools have their own agendas!

But it may depend on your situation. I'm sure some school districts are more

trustworthy than others. But, aside from that, autism affects one's whole life,

not just academics, so that is another reason to get a medical dx as well as the

school dx. And you have to watch who is doing the school dx--are they

qualified?

Ruth

[Guest guest]

I was not aware of the fact that some schools have Psychiatrists on staff.

Psychiatrists are MD's and therefore I would assume that they can make a medical

diagnosis. The question that gets confusing for me is would a school

Psychiatrist be treating a student? Could they then prescribe meds? In my

experience the Special Ed is headed by Psychologists which are PHD not MD.

I would guess that regardless of whether it is a PHD or MD that if you asked if

there results were a medical diagnosis they would say no. Even if I am wrong

about that I don't think their evaluation would be concidered by a doctor with

regard to treatment. I also doubt that it would have any significance toward

the government if you were trying to get SSI or Medicaid.

Vickie

> >

> > I am going to add my 2 cents to this discusstion.

> >

> > I think that it is really important to make the distiction between

diagnosing a medical/neurological condition and identifing a catagory of

disablility for the purposes of special ed or support services.

> >

> > No one at the school including a school psychologist can diagnose a child

with anything. They can only evaluate children to see if they meet the

definition of a disablity according to the IDEA law.

> >

>

> Are you sure about that? My son has only been definitely dx'ed by the psych at

school. His regular ped said 'maybe yes, go see the dev. psych'. Dev pysch. said

'maybe yes, go see the school for an eval'. School pysch. said 'definitely yes,

welcome aboard...'. So that is the only source of his dx.

> TJ

>

[Guest guest]

Without knowing your state regulations I can only assume that there is some

reason why the school felt it was in everyones best interest to add that

secondary qualifiation. If it was primary I would be concerned that they were

trying to get away with something but the fact that it is secondary makes me

think maybe it allows them some benefit. I guess I can't see how it can hurt

your son since it is a secondary classification. I could be wrong.

Vickie

> }

> } It is my observation that most of our HFA and Aspie kids can qualify for sp=

> } ecial ed under either catagory depending on what problems and issues presen=

> } t themselves. I would assume that if your childs IEP is catagorized as ED =

> } that the evaluations concluded this was the area in which he qualified. Yo=

> } u could certainly ask why the catagory was listed as ED and not autism.=20

>

> It's actually listed as both. Autism is primary, ED is now listed

> as secondary.

>

> Willa

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, T, diagnosing is what the medical profession does, including psychiatrists. The school psychologist evaluates according to strict criteria and rules, collects input from other professionals (teacher, ot,pt ,speech) that may ir may not, include a medical Dr. Then determines eligibility and recommendations for special ed placement and services. This is a big difference. Many times, the school sees behaviors and concerns, makes recommendations and the medical Dr doesn't see it.

Your school psych cannot make the ASD recommendation alone, either. The MET had to also evaluate, report and agree to provide support services for the disability, under whatever rules applies.

Jillian

[Guest guest]

It would be very upsetting to me to have someone adding things to the IEP without having a meeting and discussion with the whole team. I would write and request that this be removed until it has been discussed.

Roxanna

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain

( ) "emotionally disturbed" label

I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase"emotionally disturbed" was added to my son's IEP asa secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told aboutthis at the time, which is troubling.I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wonderingif this is one that could be a problem for him in thefuture.Willa

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[Guest guest]



Ohhhh, I'm good for a trip! lol.

Roxanna

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain

( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label

I am going to add my 2 cents to this discusstion. I think that it is really important to make the distiction between diagnosing a medical/neurologica l condition and identifing a catagory of disablility for the purposes of special ed or support services.No one at the school including a school psychologist can diagnose a child with anything. They can only evaluate children to see if they meet the definition of a disablity according to the IDEA law.These catagories are:• autism;• deaf-blindness;• deafness;• emotional disturbance;• hearing impairment;• mental retardation;• multiple disabilities;• orthopedic impairment;• other health impairment;• specific learning disability;• speech or language impairment;• traumatic brain injury; or• visual impairment (including blindness).The autism catagory is defined as 1. Autism......means a developmental disability significantly affecting verbal andnonverbal communication and social interaction, generally evident before age three, that adversely affects a child's educational performance. Other characteristics often associated with autism are engaging in repetitive activities and stereotyped movements, esistance to environmental change or change in daily routines, and unusual responses to sensory experiences. The term autism does not apply if the child's educational performance is adversely affected primarily because the child has an emotional disturbance, as defined in #4 below. A child who shows the characteristics of autism after age 3 could be diagnosed as having autism if the criteria above are satisfied.The Emotional Disturbance catagory is:4. Emotional Disturbance. .....means a condition exhibiting one or more of the following characteristics over a long period of time and to a marked degree that adversely affects a child's educational performance: (a) An inability to learn that cannot be explained by intellectual, sensory, or health factors. ( An inability to build or maintain satisfactory interpersonal relationships with peers and teachers. © Inappropriate types of behavior or feelings under normal circumstances. (d) A general pervasive mood ofunhappiness or depression. (e) A tendency to develop physical symptomsor fears associated with personal or school problems.The term includes schizophrenia. The term does not apply to children who are socially maladjusted, unless it is determined that theyhave an emotional disturbance.It is my observation that most of our HFA and Aspie kids can qualify for special ed under either catagory depending on what problems and issues present themselves. I would assume that if your childs IEP is catagorized as ED that the evaluations concluded this was the area in which he qualified. You could certainly ask why the catagory was listed as ED and not autism. My son was originally evaluated in kindergarden and at that time he qualified under the IDEA catagory of developemental delay which in Wisconsin is limited to age 6. At that point he was re-evaluated and met the criteria for ED (in WI it is called EBD - Emotional Behavioral disturbance) . At that time the IEP team went through the eligiblity criteria and determined if he met the definition. I was a member of that team and agreed to the placement. I don't know if your state laws work the same. Since then we have gotten a diagnosis of PDD-NOS/Mild Aspergers and I expect the next time we are recquired to re-evaluate we will change the catagory to Autism.Vickie> > >> > I just discovered that a few months ago, the phrase> > "emotionally disturbed" was added to my son's IEP as> > a secondary diagnosis after autism. I was not told about> > this at the time, which is troubling.> > > > I don't have a big thing about labels, but I'm wondering> > if this is one that could be a problem for him in the> > future.> > > > Willa> >>

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[Guest guest]

>

> The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school

but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on

the label.

Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a deaf

child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a student

from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD on

some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for

homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an

ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas,

things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that

language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow

processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time

regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?

Ruth

[Guest guest]

I'm so glad we fought to avoid the ED label in TX. It was ridiculous given that

everyone else who had ever worked with him said, " He has asperger syndrome but

he's well-adjusted. " He's really quite a happy and cooperative little boy as

long as his needs are understood and met appropriately. His current teachers

tell me, " He's a delight to work with. " and they miss him when he's absent.

They are sad he's moving on to middle school next year. In that one school in

Texas it was like they undid all the hard work everyone of everyone else who had

worked with him prior to that. Okay he was well adjusted when we got there, but

he was definitely on his way to becoming ED and THEY were the ones causing it.

It took 5 months of fighting but once was in a better school he was his

delightful and sweet self again. The staff at the new school couldn't even

fathom ever being labeled ED. I am fortunate that I had a lot of previous

information to help me know how to proceed. I became quite a mother bear though

I was never really mean or loud or inappropriate about it. Just persistent. It

was around this time that I came to the understanding that bad behavior was

simply " advocating for himself in the only way he can. " It's really

painful to hear about one's own child misbehaving. Nobody enjoys that, but

somehow when I understood he was trying to communicate with them I felt much

better about it and knew what I had to do.

I saw this wonderful doctor here in NH who explained to me that kids with

Asperger Syndrome will often develop co-morbid conditions or at least will seem

to, only to have those conditions completely disappear once stress is reduced.

I've seen this happen with a number of times. He really did seem

emotionally disturbed in Texas but if he WAS, they were the ones disturbing him.

Later when he was moved from a centralized social skills room to the regular

classroom for Math and he wasn't quite ready for that step he seemed to be

having psychotic episodes. He was hallucinating. His teachers decided it was

more a stress thing and took him back out. The weird hallucinatory behavior

stopped. I was told at the time he should be medicated for the hallucinations

and if the hallucinations stopped we'd know for sure that he had an psychotic

episode. Except that only had about 3 episodes around the time of the math

class and then they stopped. If we'd medicated him right away we might never

have known the problem stopped on its own. I was very reluctant to medicate him

and my instincts were right.

Anyway, I'm slightly off topic now. I do think the ED label should be avoided

with our kids because it seems to be used to deny services to autistic children.

One day about a year after left the school where they attempted the ED

label I bumped into the special ed teacher who had said that to me. was

doing extremely well and was playing Angel League Baseball. The special ed

teacher was a volunteer coach with one of the teams. I was very pleasant with

her though I had a little happy feeling of revenge in the back of my brain.

LOL. I didn't have to be nasty to make it happen and really it probably was

totally LOST on her. She asked how he was doing and I told her. That's the big

revenge. He was much better off without this person and I don't know if she

ever quite grasped that. He had done a 180 degree turnabout. He won an award

for his art work. He was writing poetry and excelling in school. AND HE WON THE

PRINCIPAL'S AWARD for good CITIZENSHIP!!! HEE HEE. That meant that his

behavior was a benefit to the school community. I expect it was the improvement

in his behavior that was being rewarded.

's second grade teacher, the classroom teacher who had him when he arrived

at this new and much better school, was perfect for him. We miss her. She was

just the most wonderful and sweet teacher anyone could have expected. She had a

kind way about her and could express a need for a child to change behavior in

the most positive ways I've ever seen. She always said things kindly even if it

was a kind of redirection. " Honey, can you find a see where you will be more

successful? " LOL. adored her. He hugged her frequently and we still

think of her sometimes. He'll say, " I wonder how Mrs. Corzine is. " EMOTIONALLY

DISTURBED my BUTT! When we took a trip the next summer we sent her a postcard

from Graceland because we knew she was a HUGE Elvis fan. LOL.

Miriam

> >

> > The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school

but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on

the label.

>

> Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a

deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a

student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and

BD on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time

for homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage

having an ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example.

In Texas, things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in

that language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has

slow processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra

time regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?

>

> Ruth

>

[Guest guest]

"(ii) The services and placement needed by each child with a disability to receive FAPE must be based on the child's unique needs and not on the child's disability

" This is from <<Subpart C--Services

Sec. 300.300 Provision of FAPE.

Free Appropriate Public Education

>>

I would love to read your texas state rules that allow them to provide services soley on disability category vs student need. There is plenty of language within the laws to support what I've said in many areas of the IDEA - from ESY services to LRE/placement considerations. Also within the definition itself for special education services, it requires that schools provide services and supports that meet that child's unique learning needs. That means - all of these mean - that we provide services based on what the child needs and not based on any specific category.

Certainly, a category can provide clues as to what kinds of needs a student "might" have. But you could not go on that label alone. You would have to do testing to show the need. This is because just having a disability does not qualify a child for services under IDEA.

You asked: <<For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it?>>

I do not even know why this would be a question under special education. If a child is "just lazy" then he/she wouldn't have an IEP or qualifying disability. So this would not even be a consideration as a problem. If a child has a disability and needs sped services to achieve FAPE, then not doing their work would be a problem that should be investigated with an FBA to determine what the problem is and how to solve it. This problem would cut through all disability categories and no one category could claim it as criteria solely for that category. So again, addressing this concern is based on need and not category. And there is no "I'm just lazy" category.

You also wrote: <<You would not provide braille readers for a deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a student from getting braille readers.>>

No, it won't. If a child needs a braille reader to receive FAPE, then they will do the appropriate testing to make this decision. It will not be based on a disability category, though, but based on need. Certainly, you can use the category to guide you in finding areas of needs. But it cannot limit you in finding areas of need.

You also wrote: <<Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?>>

I'm not at all sure why they would not figure this out. If testing shows slow processing speed and working memory problems, then it should be addressed as part of the IEP. Your school may have a lot of incompetence going on but we shouldn't presume this is true for all schools or even all schools in Texas. But even so, this statement doesn't support your idea because even these problems are not limited to a BD/ED category. A lot of kids within different categories might have these same problems - again, basing on need and not category. The child should be evaluated in all areas of concern and not just limited to category specific concerns. So if you have a student with autism who also has signs of dyslexia, you don't just skip the testing that shows severe problems in reading because he's autistic. They are obligated to explore all areas of need regardless of the category. Many times, neurology is not so simple as to confine itself to one area of the brain or one process of the brain function. So you get people who have multiple problems, learning problems combined with emotional problems or autism with LD's, etc. It's never a neat little box where all autistic's go here and all SLD's go there.

Roxanna

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain

( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label

>> The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on the label.Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas, things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?Ruth

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[Guest guest]

Texas does what it does even if it isn't legal. You're supposed to be able to

go to the TEA for help but there are people working for them who also work for

the public schools and so there's a problem with them being biased toward

districts. I know it sounds crazy, but if they can find away to get around the

law and not have anyone figure it out they'll do it. They have expensive

lawyers to whom they pay a great deal of money and they would rather fight a

parent than to provide anything. Then when the kid graduates they are happy to

put them into the criminal justice system. I have a friend whose son is bipolar

with psychotic episodes. He's about 12 years old. When he was 10 he was

arrested at school and he has a police record until he is 18.

Miriam

> >

> > The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school

but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on the

label.

>

> Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a

deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a

student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD

on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for

homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an

ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas,

things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that

language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow

processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time

regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?

>

> Ruth

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2081 - Release Date: 04/26/09

09:44:00

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school

but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on the

label.

>

> Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a

deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a

student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD

on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for

homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an

ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas,

things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that

language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow

processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time

regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?

>

> Ruth

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2081 - Release Date: 04/26/09

09:44:00

>

[Guest guest]

Texas may be a terrible place but it doesn't change that services are not provided based solely on category. I think there are many schools and personnel who take advantage of parents and not just in texas. That wasn't my point.

Roxanna

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain

( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label

> >> > The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on the label.> > Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas, things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?> > Ruth> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2081 - Release Date: 04/26/09 09:44:00>

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[Guest guest]

Don't you hate it when people who have the background in sped or training in sped, do not "get it." ?!??! We have had that happen so often. The other day with my 20 yo ds, at the meeting we had discussing his sped needs, they brought him in and sped teacher had him recite the information she gave him on taking a test he needed to take. She had insisted that she told him all about it, which I didn't doubt! lol. But he would never have come and told us about it. He's never had the "follow through" ability. So there we sat while she had him recite everything, then she smiles with a "see! I told you I told him what to do!!" and then lectures him about how he needs to speak up for himself, learn to advocate for himself, blah blah blah...Well, I just sat there thinking, "If he could do those things, we wouldn't be here." The person was really nice and meant well, but there is some disconnect between knowing what a communication disability means vs. understanding what it looks like in real life. Or else it's an age thing maybe? Once they get to high school or beyond, they no longer are allowed to have those problems...

Roxanna

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain

( ) Re: "emotionally disturbed" label

Texas does what it does even if it isn't legal. You're supposed to be able to go to the TEA for help but there are people working for them who also work for the public schools and so there's a problem with them being biased toward districts. I know it sounds crazy, but if they can find away to get around the law and not have anyone figure it out they'll do it. They have expensive lawyers to whom they pay a great deal of money and they would rather fight a parent than to provide anything. Then when the kid graduates they are happy to put them into the criminal justice system. I have a friend whose son is bipolar with psychotic episodes. He's about 12 years old. When he was 10 he was arrested at school and he has a police record until he is 18.Miriam> >> > The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your school but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not on the label.> > Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas, things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?> > Ruth> > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2081 - Release Date: 04/26/09 09:44:00>

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[Guest guest]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. Would I go back to Texas? No. I don't want to

move anywhere because we have great services here. Are there good schools in

Texas? DEFINITELY. But what we had was considered the best of the best and

it's nowhere near the level of services we receive in New Hampshire. It is

anecdotal so really no formal studies here. I'd like to see some. I've heard

more horror stories from my friends in Texas than I've heard from anywhere else.

Still, it's not scientific. Are we likely to have to fight for services here.

I don't really know. I've mostly heard good things from people here but we're

in a very progressive school district and it might be that other districts are

just as bad as what we experienced in Texas. There are too many variables for

me to know for certain about the schools. Our developmental pediatrician was

beside himself with happiness when we told him we were moving to New Hampshire

because according to his research New Hampshire is in the top 10 for special

education. I have no idea where he got that figure. He also stated that Texas

was in the bottom 10. Again, I have no idea where he got the information.

Anyway, my experience was very bad but that doesn't mean it is always that way.

And where we are now things were easy from day 1 but it might not always be that

way here. My understanding is that the schools here very much GET IT regarding

autism and asperger syndrome. They don't get it for some of the newer diagnoses

or for some learning disabilities. Parents with dyslexic kids often hear " he

needs a can-do attitude " when what the child needs is a different way to learn

to read. Bi-polar disorder seems to be misunderstood too often in kids here.

In Plano Texas I know of several schools that always seem to get praise from

parents of kids with asperger syndrome. Dooley, Beverly, Harrington and Barron

for early childhood education. Boggess, where my son was completely railroaded

and became aggressive and depressed and angry and basically not a child I

recognized as my normally sweet and eager-to-please sweetie. He has always been

very sweet and loving but he can get very upset in a variety of situations. He

gets over his upset quickly and he's happy and loving again. When he was at

Boggess he was angry, miserable and scary all the time. He hit, kicked and bit

his sister, strangers at the playground, me. 5 months later when school was out

he became a happy kid again and when school started at Harrington it was

WONDERFUL. loved it, learned a lot, made friends and was very, very happy.

So I don't mean to just get down on Texas about these things. But the bad times

were so VERY bad that we are all a bit traumatized from it. My opinions, are

just my opinions. Your mileage may vary. I have a friend whose asperger kid

has been in Boggess since the year after we left and he has had a good

experience. But the prinipal and special ed team leader both retired once

was gone.

Miriam

> >

> > Texas has an estimated population of over 24 million people.� There are

approximately 1,265 school districts (and many, many more campuses) in

the�State of Texas and�almost 600,000 staff.� I know some people on this

list have had problems with certain school districts in Texas before, but it

annoys me to�no end when " Texas " gets blamed for�the bad experiences.�

>

> Well, I was the one that first mentioned Texas, and I have to say that this is

not what I meant AT ALL. What I brought up was that Texas, as an example, has

it specifically written into their state rules that a classfication of ED

excludes students from certain considerations. They also have an " Autism

Supplement " that gives autistic students certain considerations that other SPED

students have no access to. The only way you can get these considerations is to

have an AUT classification. We were talking about whether it is important to

distinguish a correct dx. My point was to show that it may depend on where you

live. In Texas, it very much matters. Sure, the federal law may say that all

needs must be considered, but if the dx is wrong nobody is going to necessarily

know what the needs are. This really doesn't have anything to do with the

quality of SPED. It is just a different way of determining needs. You have to

really dot your i's and cross your t's in Texas, because they like to be very

exact. Like everywhere, the quality of SPED varies. In my particular

geographic area, I think they are very behind the times regarding all

disabilities involving executive dysfunction. The general ed

teachers/administrators aren't getting the training they need and seem pretty

clueless. This has been very consistent over several schools and many

teachers/administrators. Like I said before, my son is getting to be a pioneer,

whether he wants to be or not.

>

> Ruth

>

>

> Ruth

>

[Guest guest]

Boy do I agree. I got an email from the resource teacher that the Computer

Applications teacher assured him that my son understood the directions and steps

of the assignment and was just playing " stupid. "

I responded that often my son does use the " I don't know " or " I don't

understand " as avoidance behavior. He will often repeat those phrases over and

over to keep from actually doing the work or to keep from listening to the

explanation of how or what to do. But then I gave an example from that night

where his literalness (is that a word?) had been a problem. He had a list of

science assignments that he needed to make up. He told me that he did not

understand what the assignment meant. So I asked him to explain more. So he

said he did not understand what the teacher had written down because he could

not find it on the page. So, I turned to the page and it said, " Section 1

Assessment " - the teacher had written down " Section 1 Review. " Even thought the

page was the same, there were 5 questions and it said Section 1, the words

Review and Assessment threw him. What is written by the teacher is what is

supposed to be on the page. The teacher responded that he had worked with him

enough to be aware that he is literal and it can not understand things, but it

he did not " cry wolf " so often then he would be believed more when he said that

he did not understand.

Why can't they get it? I am a sped teacher for 30+ years and a parent of

special needs kids for 26. I still get it.

Donna

---- Roxanna <madideas@...> wrote:

> Don't you hate it when people who have the background in sped or training in

sped, do not " get it. " ?!??! We have had that happen so often. The other day

with my 20 yo ds, at the meeting we had discussing his sped needs, they brought

him in and sped teacher had him recite the information she gave him on taking a

test he needed to take. She had insisted that she told him all about it, which

I didn't doubt! lol. But he would never have come and told us about it. He's

never had the " follow through " ability. So there we sat while she had him

recite everything, then she smiles with a " see! I told you I told him what to

do!! " and then lectures him about how he needs to speak up for himself, learn to

advocate for himself, blah blah blah...Well, I just sat there thinking, " If he

could do those things, we wouldn't be here. " The person was really nice and

meant well, but there is some disconnect between knowing what a communication

disability means vs. understanding what it looks like in real life. Or else

it's an age thing maybe? Once they get to high school or beyond, they no longer

are allowed to have those problems...

>

>

> Roxanna

>

> " Suppose you were an idiot.

> And suppose you were a member of Congress.

> But I repeat myself. "

> ~ Mark Twain

> ( ) Re: " emotionally disturbed " label

>

> Texas does what it does even if it isn't legal. You're supposed to be able

to go to the TEA for help but there are people working for them who also work

for the public schools and so there's a problem with them being biased toward

districts. I know it sounds crazy, but if they can find away to get around the

law and not have anyone figure it out they'll do it. They have expensive lawyers

to whom they pay a great deal of money and they would rather fight a parent than

to provide anything. Then when the kid graduates they are happy to put them into

the criminal justice system. I have a friend whose son is bipolar with psychotic

episodes. He's about 12 years old. When he was 10 he was arrested at school and

he has a police record until he is 18.

>

> Miriam

> > >

> > > The label cannot exclude services. They might be doing that at your

school but it is not legal to do that. Services have to be based on need and not

on the label.

> >

> > Of course it can and it does. You would not provide braille readers for a

deaf child. Having a dx for deafness (and not blind and deaf) will exclude a

student from getting braille readers. There is the same reasoning with ED and BD

on some issues. For example, why would you provide a student with extra time for

homework if s/he is simply willfully not doing it? This is the damage having an

ED/BD label rather than AS could do--just as a very simple example. In Texas,

things like this are actually written into the state rules, not in that

language, of course, but you get the idea. Yes, if a BD/ED student has slow

processing speed and working memory problems, they should be given extra time

regardless of the dx, but will anybody stop to figure that out?

> >

> > Ruth

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> > Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2081 - Release Date: 04/26/09

09:44:00

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 04/28/09

06:15:00