Re: Re: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

[Guest guest]

Hi Nita

RDI is a developmental model for therapy. Relationship Development intervention

is based on Guided Participation. Typically, Parents are the first guide to

their children, and RDI believes with ASD children, Autism has halted the child

in the developmental stages. For remediation to happen effectively, RDI goes

back in the development track and pinpoints where the child stopped, and starts

development remediation at that point. RDI tracks the child using objectives,

which are very detailed and based on typical development. The parent knows

exactly what specific objective in development that they are remediating. RDI

concentrates on Dynamic thinking in their model as a basis for all their

objectives

Here is the website www.rdiconnect.com

My son, who had ABA for 4 years and graduated from it was still in the low

stages of RDI when we started RDI.

Kathy

RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

There is a preschool that does aba. I'm on the waiting list for . It's

45 minutes away ONE way! And we can't move closer either.

So this ABA stuff, I need a dedicated space for him? I know nothing about it

and I don't where to really learn how/what it is.. tell me more!!!

And what is this rdi? Someone else does that and told me about it. But just

the name. haven't looked at it yet

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Someone else I know does it too and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if

you could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks

- Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarner@...> wrote: Someone else I know does

it too and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Hi Amber

I did start off trying to do them together a few years ago, but when you try

and do that you soon realize they totally contradict one another...

I did both because I had to learn about RDI before feeling comfortable with

choosing RDI over ABA....but once I had that understanding I dropped ABA because

I saw more results and progress with RDI.

WHat I did was say that I was going to take a week off of ABA and do RDI

principles, and see if I saw any changes. They both cant be done together,

unless you make RDI into a discreet trial, which is then defeating the

philopshy of RDI and in essence you are not doing RDI at all.

KAthy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if

you could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks

- Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarner@...> wrote: Someone else I know does it too

and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

I plan to have my son do RDI when he is a bit older ( he's 2 ) as I think its a

great program. We use Floortime ourselves and ABA comes 3 hrs a day, 5 times a

week. I would not feel comfortable using just ABA without us being able to do

the more natural floortime in our daily lives. It depends on where your child is

at. If they are not wanting to interact at all and there skill level such as

sitting while being read a book etc is very low then ABA can help with that.

Once a child has the fundamentals down and is above all that ..then I think its

time to concentrate more on  RDI or more Floortime approach. Floortime and RDI

are not exactly the same but do both use a more naturalistic approach which is

wonderful for building communication/relationship etc

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if you

could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks -

Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarnercharter (DOT) net> wrote: Someone else I know does it too

and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6. dotphoto.. com <http://momof6. dotphoto. com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot. blogspot. com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I tend to disagree regarding some of your points with RDI. I had to undo alot

of skill based learning when I started doing RDI with my son. RDI can be done

at any age, since it is a developmental program. RDI follows typical

development..... If a child is not wanting to interact or sit while reading a

book, RDI will go thru objectives so the child's motivation to do such things

come naturally as a typical childs. Teaching them thru reinforcers instead of

developmental milestones is very different and IMO, I had to undo that when I

wanted my son to progress. RDI works best when you dont have to undo a childs

motivation foundation.

Thanks!

Kathy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if

you could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks

- Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarnercharter (DOT) net> wrote: Someone else I know does it too

and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6. dotphoto.. com <http://momof6. dotphoto. com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot. blogspot. com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Well thats ok but I was told by a child developemental psychologist who has been

working with autistic children for over 30 years, do not put all you eggs in one

basket. Try different approaches and see what works best for your child. ABA has

recovered some children so I think telling parents it wont work for them is

misleading. All children are different and what works best for one child may not

work well for another. For your child ABA was not helpful. Being that you

experienced it and then moved onto the RDI and found that to be more beneficial

is great info. But I would hate to see a parent not try ABA thinking it just

doesn't work..because for some it does.

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if you

could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks -

Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarner@ charter. net> wrote: Someone else I know does it too

and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6. dotphoto.. com <http://momof6. dotphoto. com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot. blogspot.. com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

HI

Thats ok, as many professionals have different opinions..as I have talked to

many....and Im expressing mine based on my two children on the spectrum, having

done ABA ( and being told my child was recovered thru ABA) only to find out that

the word *recovered* can mean many things to many people.

I personally have seen children back on the developmental track thru RDI, which

means that when they reach adulthood, they are able to get a job, get married,

etc....... and my sons old ABA therapist who has a masters in ABA told me that

much of the time, reovered and success in the *ABA world means the child can sit

and school and do skills, but they still struggle with friendships and

behaviors. Then as an adult, they have a hard time. This is shown in studies

of ASD adults. I totally support a parents choice and only want to give my

experience so that they can make informed decisions! I personally have seen my

child develop skills the first year of ABA, but then stagnent after that and

the behaviors started. This is pretty common ( Not everyone) but still worthy

of explanation, that RDI is not something you do after ABA. RDI is a complete

different program and is a complete program....I just wanted to make that

clarification.

KAthy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if

you could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks

- Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarner@ charter. net> wrote: Someone else I know does it

too and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6. dotphoto.. com <http://momof6. dotphoto. com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot. blogspot.. com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

btw, I will post this info again in case someone is interested in

exploring RDI....

Autism-remediation-for-our-children/

Enzymes/supplements and RDI have done such wonderful things for my two children!

....Thank you for informing me!!

Kathy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I've heard of RDI but haven't heard of anyone whose tried it. Anyone know if

you could do it at the same time as ABA therapy or would it be too much? Thanks

- Amber

Venita Garner <nitagarner@ charter. net> wrote: Someone else I know does it

too and their son is the youngest in the group

at age 4. He was wondering if is perhaps too young. Is there an age

thing for rdi?

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6. dotphoto.. com <http://momof6. dotphoto. com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot. blogspot.. com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

What is the research on RDI? My husband has read research on ABA.. he d/n

want to do RDI w/o seeing the research that backs up it. They have a 4 day

conference in Atlanta in June but it costs 2K$. we don't have 2k$!! to come

up with it.. I don't know how. We need to get out of debt too. He d/n want

to plunk down that kind of money w/o knowing more about it and it's backbone

of research and support.

I will look at that group too. Thank you.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Hi Nita

I see that you joined the other group, so I dont want to clog this Enzyme

group....... but I just wanted to answer you .....

I have a few things for RDI to take a look at..

The first is the most recent study of RDI and Autism, I gotta find the copy

that I had, but you can view it for 15 dollars

http://aut.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/11/5/397

These two books are some of the books Dr Gutstein used to create the RDI

program. He has had these Authors speak at his RDI conferences. The research

for how to help children long term on the spectrum are in these books.

http://www.amazon.com/Cradle-Thought-Exploring-Origins-Thinking/dp/0195219546

http://www.amazon.com/Developing-Through-Relationships-Alan-Fogel/dp/0226256596/\

ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1209941439 & sr=1-1

This is not official research but nice to add.....

http://www2.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200709/tows_past_20070918_c2.jhtml

Q: Do you have any suggestions about what you did when switching to the diet?

JM: Most people recommend getting rid of dairy first. Be careful because even

though labels say " lactose free " you have to check the back for the work CASEIN.

Do not buy if Casein is in the ingredients. Then after about a week or so move

into getting rid of gluten. There are so many things at Whole Foods that you can

find that your child can eat. I will be making a " getting started on the diet "

list for Oprah.com in the next week of exactly the foods you can buy. In the

meantime type in GF/CF on Google and you will see many online stores to choose

from. My favorite is orgran.com. Also TACAnow.org even has kid recipes!!

Q: Can you tell me more about the signs that were obvious to you in retrospect?

Especially any signs prior to your baby turning 1 year old?

JM: Evan was completely on target with all milestones in the first year of life.

I always said you had to work a little harder to get him to laugh, but for the

most part there were no obvious signs.

Q: What do you mean by window? Is there an age the window is shut for good?

JM: I was referring to a window of time. The best outcomes seem to happen with

early intervention from ages 2 to 6. The window does NOT close. Kids and even

adults can get better with treatment. Besides diet, supplements and detox I also

recommend a therapy called RDI. Its like a behavior therapy but teaches the

parent to become the therapist. It does great things for ALL ages of kids on the

spectrum. More info at rdiconnect.com.

Some additional studies-

1. This is a study that

supports the neural underconnectivity theory behind

RDI.

Cereb Cortex 2007;17(4):951-61.

Functional and anatomical cortical underconnectivity

in autism: evidence from an FMRI study of an executive

function task and corpus callosum morphometry.

JUST MA, CHERKASSKY VL, KELLER TA, KANA RK, MINSHEW

NJ.

Center for Cognitive Brain Imaging, Carnegie Mellon

University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, USA

The brain activation of a group of high-functioning

autistic participants was measured using functional

magnetic resonance imaging during the performance of a

Tower of London task, in comparison with a control

group matched with respect to intelligent quotient,

age, and gender. The 2 groups generally activated the

same cortical areas to similar degrees. However, there

were 3 indications of underconnectivity in the group

with autism. First, the degree of synchronization

(i.e., the functional connectivity or the correlation

of the time series of the activation) between the

frontal and parietal areas of activation was lower for

the autistic than the control participants. Second,

relevant parts of the corpus callosum, through which

many of the bilaterally activated cortical areas

communicate, were smaller in cross-sectional area in

the autistic participants. Third, within the autism

group but not within the control group, the size of

the genu of the corpus callosum was correlated with

frontal-parietal functional connectivity. These

findings suggest that the neural basis of altered

cognition in autism entails a lower degree of

integration of information across certain cortical

areas resulting from reduced intracortical

connectivity. The results add support to a new theory

of cortical underconnectivity in autism, which posits

a deficit in integration of information at the neural

and cognitive levels.

2. this might be interesting and helpful to those who may

be considering trying to get their districts to fund

the RDI.

http://a2zedad.com/advocacy_cases/autism_cases/Casey_RDI.html

3. This is the study Dr. G. mentioned when I was in

Houston, that traditional " social skills " training

does not work. More support for RDI.

Source: Indiana University

Date: June 26, 2007

More on: Autism, Educational Psychology, Social

Psychology, Child Development, Relationships,

Psychology

Social Skills Programs For Children With Autism Are

Largely Ineffective, Study Suggests

Science Daily - A meta-analysis of 55 published

research studies reveals programs designed to teach

social skills to children with autism are failing to

meet their goals. The study, conducted at Indiana

University, found that outcomes for social skills

training were poor overall, but programs held in

normal classroom settings were more likely to result

in positive changes than programs held in other

environments.

" The results of the meta-analysis are certainly hard

to swallow, but they do shed some light on factors

that lead to more beneficial social outcomes for

children with autism, " said lead researcher

Bellini, assistant director of IU's Indiana Resource

Center for Autism and assistant professor in the

School of Education. " These results underscore the

critical need for researchers and practitioners to

develop more effective social skills programming. "

The reviewed studies included a total of 147 students

with an autism spectrum disorder, with students

ranging in age from preschool to secondary school. The

programs aimed to address skills such as group play,

joint attention and language usage, or to improve

performance of social behaviors, such as initiating

interactions, responding to communication and

maintaining interactions. Overall, the programs

resulted in little change in the targeted behaviors,

and students did not apply the skills outside the

programs.

However, students receiving social skills programming

in their usual classrooms had substantially more

favorable outcomes than students who received services

in a pull-out setting. Students in classroom-based

programs were more likely to engage the targeted

skills during the program, and showed a greater

tendency to maintain changes in behaviors and to

utilize these skills in other settings.

" This finding has important implications for

school-based social skill interventions. Teachers and

other school personnel should place a premium on

selecting social skill interventions that can be

reasonably implemented within naturalistic settings, "

Bellini said.

The study revealed additional potential improvements

in the design and implementation of the programs:

Increase dosage. The programs in the studies failed to

provide sufficient amounts of programming, based on

current research recommendations. Implementing

services more intensely and frequently may lead to

better outcomes, Bellini said.

Match programs to skill deficits. All but one of the

55 studies failed to distinguish between " performance

deficits, " which refer to skills that are present but

not performed, and " skill acquisition deficits, " which

refer to the absence of a skill or behavior. Targeting

the types of skill deficits exhibited by the

participants could lead to more successful programs,

Bellini said.

Ensure proper implementation. Only 14 of the studies

in the meta-analysis measured whether the program was

implemented as designed. " This makes it extremely

difficult to conclude whether a social skills program

was ineffective because of an ineffectual strategy or

because the strategy was implemented poorly, " Bellini

said.

The study, " A Meta-Analysis of School-Based Social

Skills Interventions for Children With Autism Spectrum

Disorders, " was published in this month's Journal of

Remedial and Special Education.

Note: This story has been adapted from a news release

issued by Indiana U.

Sorry for the length.....RDI is about 7 year old....so more research studies are

under way. I know it works for us, and for many others. I know that ALL the

ABA research studies address the children sitting in the classroom with peers,

but admit that relationship wise is lacking. There is a study ( I would need

to find it) on ASD adults, and 12 percent can live independantly with the

current therapies that they used. I believe this study was in 2003. So not

sure what research was shown other then negative, that has a high incidence of

recovery in the past decade. less then 15 percent is dismall...but all the

research studies on ABA tend to look at children in the younger grades being

able to do the school work. We already know our kids arent lacking in that

area.

Kathy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

What is the research on RDI? My husband has read research on ABA.. he d/n

want to do RDI w/o seeing the research that backs up it. They have a 4 day

conference in Atlanta in June but it costs 2K$. we don't have 2k$!! to come

up with it.. I don't know how. We need to get out of debt too. He d/n want

to plunk down that kind of money w/o knowing more about it and it's backbone

of research and support.

I will look at that group too. Thank you.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Hi Nita

I know, so much to navigate. SO many choices. That is a good thing too

though, as 8 years ago I did not have so much information that we have now!

RDI can work on a 2.5 year old!

ABA can look different with each model. It is a skill based program. With ABA,

a child is encouraged to look at you, or to put a block in a bucket, and then

receives a food item or praise, depending on the child. The child learns when

they listen to the command, they get something positive. ABA teaches

discretely many things that you would want your child to do...talk, follow

commands, etc. Say a child walks over to the table and you want them to put a

puzzle piece down. You call them over *come here*, and when they do and do

what you say they get a reward. They can then go leave and play.

RDI believes that doing that is fostering the therapist or parent to being used

instrumentally. Meaning....I do this to get something. This is not how a

typically developing child learns about their world...of course as we get older

we all want to get something ~grin~ but we all have the foundational skills

caring about relationship first.

So there is no *Session* in RDI. You take an objective with RDI and you put it

in the childs day. Say an objective is determining if a child knows if

something was accomplished together and each poerson had a role. You would

spend a week trying to encorporate that into everything you do. Folding wash,

going shopping, crafts, playing, cleaning, etc. This is filling in gaps that

the child did not learn the first time. Each time a gap is filled in, that

child is one step closer to reaching typical development. So if a child has

gaps from not understanding something relationship wise at a year old, and

those gaps are filled in, you start to see the child do things on their own,

without having to reward them. Their intruistic motivation to accomplish

whatever it is, is enough.

My son is also on Enzymes and supplements, and goes to OT. These are all Co

occurring conditions along with the Autism. Not every child with Autism has

these issues. Autism deficits are accross the board on every child. Co

occurring conditions also need to be treated, sometimes even before the Autism

deficits if they are severe enough.

This is my experience and knowledge, others may have different views based on

their experience. My older child on the spectrum now has friends, and would not

be considered on the spectrum any longer. We are at a higher stage in RDI, so

we still are working on his thinking process. My younger son is at a lower

stage of RDI as we work thru his gut issues.

Kathy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

HI Kim,

Hmmm There is a 4 day round me this coming week.....Im guessing we are not that

far from one another

Your son sounds typical of an ABA program IMO, the first year you see progress

because at least the child has some skills.....but those skills were built upon

faulty foundational relationship skills...and so then starts the behaviors and

aggression. I lived thru it and it was a dark time! My son is no longer

behaviorial or aggressive! And great, ignore the aggression is the advice. I

remember. We ignored it for a whole year....no better. He was actually

reaching out to us with those behaviors....he had no other way to express his

frustration! When I learned about RDI, I learned that he needed to be

regulated with me, just like a baby learns regulation as an infant thru

rocking, etc..... My son never thoroughly understood regulation with another

person. This is a foundation that cannot be lacking, and is the foundation for

children to really care about their parents perspective.

ABA is proven to do what exactly? All the studies I read talk about the

children sitting in class with their peers. I know lots of ASD children who can

do that. However, that is not success if they cannot socialize and have

friends. ( the studies reference that as a weak area, so exactly what is the

*success*) Nothing breaks my heart more when a school says they are successful

when a child gets all A's, but cannot socialize at all.

Right before I started RDI, when I was struggling with it all, I was in my

sons class and saw how all the honor roll children could not function well

socially..... It was an ahha moment.

The good news is, your sons anger is because he cannot understand the world

around him because he is lacking developmental milestones of a very young

typical child. Once you work on this, you will see a changed child!

Have you joined the Autism group that I mentioned earlier?

Kathy

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Kathy, Great explanation of ABA and RDI, thanks. My son has been doing 30 hours

a week of ABA for a year, he started when he was three his now four. He is

blowing through the drills, but can not socialize. He has developed behaviors

and I think it is a result of ABA. The ABA therapist say it is because there

are demands being placed on him now that weren't before. We have been told to

ignore the agression. It is hard and I don't think it is working. I am going

to a 4 day RDI seminar this week to see what it is all about. I am afraid to

stop ABA, because, " it is the only one scientifically proven to work, " but I am

also afraid that my son is getting worse from it. Acedemically he is doing ok,

but he is angry most of the time. What would you do? thanks, Kim

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Hey Kim, It means In My Opinion Yup, I had that same feeling.....honestly

when I learned about RDI, I was almost tearful because it confirmed everything

that was not sitting right in my gut!

The group is very supportive of parents who are doing RDI and those who are

seeing if RDI is a good fit for your family

Kathy

PS Im in South Jersey

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

Hey Kathy, What is IMO? Your thoughts match mine exactly. Something about ABA

just doesn't sit right with me. No I haven't joined the group. Should I?

Thanks again for your help and support. Maybe we do live around each other.

Kim

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

http://horizonsdrc.blogspot.com/2007/02/man-on-bicycle.html

<http://horizonsdrc.blogspot.com/2007/02/man-on-bicycle.html>

>

> Kathy, Great explanation of ABA and RDI, thanks. My son has been doing

30 hours a week of ABA for a year, he started when he was three his now

four. He is blowing through the drills, but can not socialize. He has

developed behaviors and I think it is a result of ABA. The ABA therapist

say it is because there are demands being placed on him now that weren't

before. We have been told to ignore the agression. It is hard and I

don't think it is working. I am going to a 4 day RDI seminar this week

to see what it is all about. I am afraid to stop ABA, because, " it is

the only one scientifically proven to work, " but I am also afraid that

my son is getting worse from it. Acedemically he is doing ok, but he is

angry most of the time. What would you do? thanks, Kim

> RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

>

> I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey

and

> all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction.

I

> think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to

get

> him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the

table,

> we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When

he

> stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his

signal

> he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

> books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back

and

> forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does

not

> *look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

>

> How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What

is

> RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting

list that

> does ABA.

>

> What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

> through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids

table

> and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on

PECS.

>

> A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet.

Another

> friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test.

I'd

> rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out

a

> wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than

trying to

> make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to

wheat b/c

> I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

>

> Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11,

9,

> 6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

> http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

> necessarily current pictures

>

> http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

> Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

enough

> to make them all yourself.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Kathy I am in south jersey too. email me at egramaglia@..., if you

can. i am curious to know if you know of the school my son goes to. thanks,

kim

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this journey and

all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special instruction. I

think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are trying to get

him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at the table,

we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off. When he

stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his signal

he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth, back and

forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He does not

*look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month? What is

RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting list that

does ABA.

What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little kids table

and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on PECS.

A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet. Another

friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy test. I'd

rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure out a

wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than trying to

make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to wheat b/c

I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

[Guest guest]

I am really grateful for this exchange about therapies. Did someone

mention there was a website that discusses various behavioral

therapies? I can't seem to find it.

I want to understand the difference between RDI and Floortime.

Tks so much,

>

> Kathy, Great explanation of ABA and RDI, thanks. My son has been

doing 30 hours a week of ABA for a year, he started when he was three

his now four. He is blowing through the drills, but can not

socialize. He has developed behaviors and I think it is a result of

ABA. The ABA therapist say it is because there are demands being

placed on him now that weren't before. We have been told to ignore

the agression. It is hard and I don't think it is working. I am

going to a 4 day RDI seminar this week to see what it is all about. I

am afraid to stop ABA, because, " it is the only one scientifically

proven to work, " but I am also afraid that my son is getting worse

from it. Acedemically he is doing ok, but he is angry most of the

time. What would you do? thanks, Kim

> RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

>

> I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this

journey and

> all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special

instruction. I

> think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are

trying to get

> him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at

the table,

> we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off.

When he

> stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his

signal

> he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

> books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth,

back and

> forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He

does not

> *look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

>

> How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month?

What is

> RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting

list that

> does ABA.

>

> What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

> through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little

kids table

> and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on

PECS.

>

> A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet.

Another

> friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy

test. I'd

> rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure

out a

> wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than

trying to

> make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to

wheat b/c

> I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

>

> Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11,

9,

> 6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

> http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

> necessarily current pictures

>

> http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

> Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

enough

> to make them all yourself.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I dont know a websight about comparing both... but I use floortime with ny son

and there is a websight www.floortime.org I used the info under parents and

found it explained quite a bit. Hope this helps

RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

>

> I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this

journey and

> all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special

instruction. I

> think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are

trying to get

> him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at

the table,

> we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off.

When he

> stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his

signal

> he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

> books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth,

back and

> forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He

does not

> *look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

>

> How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month?

What is

> RDI and can it work on a 2..5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting

list that

> does ABA.

>

> What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

> through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little

kids table

> and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on

PECS.

>

> A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet.

Another

> friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy

test. I'd

> rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure

out a

> wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than

trying to

> make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to

wheat b/c

> I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

>

> Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11,

9,

> 6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

> http://momof6. dotphoto. com <http://momof6. dotphoto. com/> for not

> necessarily current pictures

>

> http://nitasspot.. blogspot. com

> Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

enough

> to make them all yourself.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree with this. I was an ABA therapist

for two years and I always struggled internally with

having to ignore what the children were asking for.

They were obviously uncomfortable and yet we were

forced to ignore their needs and insert our own.

I thought it was so bizarre that the focus was on making

these children " appear " typical, but there was no

taking into consideration what these kids wanted, needed or

enjoyed. For example, one of the programs I worked on

was turn-taking with a boy. So he could sit there and

pretend to play a game with someone when he actually had

absolutely no interest in being there. WEIRD! Why spend

all this time/money making a child appear like he is

like the other kids, when he was just going through the

motions. Very odd to me.

I now see that children are having behaviors because of

outside things and if a parent

feeds their child foods that give them reactions and create

behaviors, there is no amount of therapy that can really

cover that up. It needs to be addressed at the source...the

diet, the supplements, the safety of his/her parents, his

her needs addressed.

My daughter is very socially anxious and I would NEVER force

her into a social situation she wasn't comfortable with,

as I was taught in ABA. She had severe sensory issues and

I addressed them with HANDLE's gentle brain-gym type program,

not by forcing sensory stimulation on her until she was

de-sensitized. She hates being touched and I have never let

anyone touch her against her will, ABA would train her to

be okay with it by forcing it on her little by little.

Okay, a little off track here...sorry. I am against the

traditional force your child to appear a certain way by

ignoring their needs ABA No offense to the parents that

are doing it...I hope Now that I have a daughter with

special needs I am trying to make peace with the guilt

I accrued doing ABA therapy to poor innocent, scared,

autistic children with real, even if different, needs.

Much love,

My Mama's Love

http://www.my-mamas-love.com/

I did

>

> Hey Kathy, What is IMO? Your thoughts match mine exactly.

Something about ABA just doesn't sit right with me. No I haven't

joined the group. Should I? Thanks again for your help and support.

Maybe we do live around each other. Kim

> RE: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

>

> I'm getting so confused here. We are at the beginning of this

journey and

> all I have so far is 2 hours of OT and 2 hours of special

instruction. I

> think he needs more. We do some homework with him and we are

trying to get

> him to go to the table when he's hungry, so anytime we see him at

the table,

> we give him some food so hopefully the association will rub off.

When he

> stands up in his high chair, we're trying to teach him that is his

signal

> he's done.. so we lift him down. We do stacking stuff and patty-cake..

> books.. he just tries to eat or turns the pages back and forth,

back and

> forth or runs his finger up and down the spine of the book. He

does not

> *look* at the pictures. You can't read to him.

>

> How do I get EI to give him more than the 4 measly hours a month?

What is

> RDI and can it work on a 2.5 year old? He's on a preschool waiting

list that

> does ABA.

>

> What is ABA too? I mean, they come and..? What? What happens? Walk me

> through an imaginary session. His OT wants me to set up a little

kids table

> and chair for him to do some work at and she wants to start him on

PECS.

>

> A friend of mine also is pressuring me to try GF at least diet.

Another

> friend of mine sent me a link to sage labs for a food allergy

test. I'd

> rather find out he's allergic to wheat that way than try to figure

out a

> wheat free diet. Then if he is, I'd rather try enzymes first than

trying to

> make him go wheat free in a wheat world. IMO, he's not reacting to

wheat b/c

> I think it would have shown the autism sooner.

>

> Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11,

9,

> 6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

> http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

> necessarily current pictures

>

> http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

> Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

enough

> to make them all yourself.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to jump in here- I used to work as an ABA consultant

back in the mid to late 90s (and here I am on this side of the

equation, a sad irony I suppose). I am wondering if something has

changed since then about how ABA is done? When I was in the field, we

would adapt the teaching methods as the child progressed, so it wasn't

all academic and " at the table " - as quickly as possible it was made as

natural as possible, and it often came to look a lot like RDi or

floortime. I never saw the kind of frustration that is being

discussed here. I'm not doubting anyone's experience or judgment with

their kids (in fact I haven't ever felt that ABA is appropriate for my

son), but I'm feeling sad that maybe the whole discipline is getting

too entrenched or something? Could the overall quality be going down?

Even back in the 90s we were moving away from drill books and working

towards a more development approach.

Someone asked what exactly ABA helps, per the research, and suggested

that the research shows that it only helps kids sit in school and do

academics. In fact, the criteria for " best outcome " with ABA is that

the child is indistinguishable from typical peers in EVERY way-

socially as well as academically. This means that if I put a " best

outcome " child in a room with typical peers, there is no way to figure

out which child used to have autism- no test, no expert that can do

it. I saw that happen quite a lot. There is this myth that the kids

who do well with ABA become like robots, and don't learn to do things

out of intrinsic motivation. If that is happening it would be the

result of poorly done therapy that is not adapting to meet the child's

changing needs. ABA is a highly adaptable approach. I'm not saying

that it's the end-all-be-all or that it's the best fit for every

child, but it isn't accurate to depict it as unable to address the

social side of life for spectrum kids. There are bad apples in every

field- I've seen some truly incompetent people who claimed to do

floortime (and some appalling stuff touted as ABA). I think that

whatever you choose to do, you do need to pay attention and follow

your gut. If you feel that something isn't right for your child it

probably isn't. I also feel that " good people " (those wonderful

people who really connect with our kids and are able to help them) can

transcend a specific approach.

I'm not trying to bash RDI or floortime, (in fact the agency that I

used to work for has switched over to doing RDI), these sound like

great options that are a wonderful fit for lots of kids. I feel sad

to hear that some people have had such bad experiences with ABA and

glad that they have found other things that help. One thing that has

come up recently that makes me suspect a change in the " mood " of the

field of ABA is that some providers require parents to promise NOT to

do biomed??? I get so angry just thinking of that. When I was in the

field, we wanted the kids to succeed regardless of who got the credit,

and families (in my experience) were encouraged to pursue other

options (there didn't seem to be as many back then though). Back

then, ABA was considered the way biomed is now- " fringe " ,

" experimental " , and probably dangerous, something experts warned

families away from, despite the research. I hope the becoming

accepted and coming into the mainstream as it has hasn't been at a

high price.

-Sierra

>

> HI Kim,

> Hmmm There is a 4 day round me this coming week.....Im guessing we

are not that far from one another

>

> Your son sounds typical of an ABA program IMO, the first year you

see progress because at least the child has some skills.....but those

skills were built upon faulty foundational relationship skills...and

so then starts the behaviors and aggression. I lived thru it and it

was a dark time! My son is no longer behaviorial or aggressive! And

great, ignore the aggression is the advice. I remember. We ignored

it for a whole year....no better. He was actually reaching out to us

with those behaviors....he had no other way to express his

frustration! When I learned about RDI, I learned that he needed to

be regulated with me, just like a baby learns regulation as an infant

thru rocking, etc..... My son never thoroughly understood regulation

with another person. This is a foundation that cannot be lacking, and

is the foundation for children to really care about their parents

perspective.

>

> ABA is proven to do what exactly? All the studies I read talk about

the children sitting in class with their peers. I know lots of ASD

children who can do that. However, that is not success if they

cannot socialize and have friends. ( the studies reference that as a

weak area, so exactly what is the *success*) Nothing breaks my heart

more when a school says they are successful when a child gets all A's,

but cannot socialize at all.

>

> Right before I started RDI, when I was struggling with it all, I

was in my sons class and saw how all the honor roll children could not

function well socially..... It was an ahha moment.

>

> The good news is, your sons anger is because he cannot understand

the world around him because he is lacking developmental milestones of

a very young typical child. Once you work on this, you will see a

changed child!

>

> Have you joined the Autism group that I mentioned earlier?

>

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

HI Sierra

Thanks for your comments. Your experience is unique to the professionals I have

spoken with. Even ABA research papers admit that indistinguishablily is

academic.......The research papers I have read says they are not

indistinguisable from their peers in the way of socialization (See the end of

this post)....

Lovaas study states

The term normal functioning has been used to describe children who successfully

passed normal

first grade and achieved an average IQ on the WISC-R.

We are greatly concerned that when these children are assessed as teenagers (as

in McEachin, et al. 1993) outcome data will in all likelihood show that the

children have not maintained their treatment gains, but regressed unless the

workshop services were continued. One can protect a child from regressing by

helping the child develop friendships with typical children, learning to play

and talk with them, and learning to learn in a classroom environment with

typical children. It takes a lot of skill and numerous hours of treatment to

achieve this end, and we have no reasons to believe that the workshop-based

program by persons described in the Sheinkopf and Siegel article, who do not

adhere to the UCLA program, will be able to do so.

Cohen, , Amerine-Dickens, Mila, , Tristram. (2006)

Early Intensive Behavioral Treatment: Replication of the UCLA Model

in a Community Setting.

Journal of Developmental & Behavioral Pediatrics, 27 (2), 145-155

http://www.pacificautismcenter.com/ADA-Info/Cohen2006.pdf

Central Valley

Autism Project (CVAP) is currently involved in a study to

translate this test into English and standardize it in the

United States. Without such measures, the present study

cannot address one of the most controversial issues raised

by previous EIBT researchYwhether some children become

indistinguishable from typically developing peers6 or

whether they continue to display characteristics of ASD.

An additional follow-up evaluation of study participants

with the ADOS and Theory of Mind (TOM) Test is

planned to fill in some of these gaps.

In this study, advanced behaviors associated with

friendship initiation and maintenance, social skills, understanding

of social meaning, and response to social

behaviors were identified and treated, using the same

discrete trial methodology as other behaviors, which

consequently increased the duration of treatment beyond

3 years for many participants (usually for 2 additional

years). Although this expansion of the treatment protocol

reflects the contemporary view that the defining feature of

ASD is an impairment in social reciprocity, it raises the

question of whether the present study truly was a

replication of the UCLA model. The treatment site met

all of Lovaas' criteria for replication, and the first 2 years

of intervention followed the model as it has been

previously described.2 The third year also followed the

model, with the addition of the training in advanced social

skills. Thus, results from Years 1 and 2 are directly

comparable to those of previous studies, and results from

Year 3 also reflect mostly the same interventions.

Research on the specific effects of the additional social

skills training is warranted, as it is acknowledged that such

training was not included in previous studies. Also,

although discrete trial training is a common approach to

teaching social skills and has some empirical support,35,36

teaching methodologies other than discrete trials (e.g.

video modeling, incidental teaching) also have empirical

support and may have advantages such as generalizing

more quickly to settings outside of treatment;22 thus, the

question of how best to teach such skills may be another

area for research.

Interestingly, although the EIBT protocol lasted for 3

years and, in some cases, was continued beyond that time,

the nonsignificant group time interactions in the

statistical analyses indicates that the EIBT group did not

show reliable IQ increases relative to the comparison

group after Year 1. A possible explanation is that most

gains occurred in the first year of intervention. Alternatively,

however, it is also possible that gains took place

later in treatment but that the study measures were not

sensitive to them.

Potential evidence for the latter view comes from the

findings on classroom placement. A striking result was

that, despite IQ gains in the comparison group, all

participants but 1 remained primarily in a special education

classroom setting, whereas most EIBT participants

were included in regular education at least part of the day.

Classroom placement is a controversial outcome measure

because of concerns that it may reflect factors such as

parent advocacy and school policy rather than the child's

functioning.12 However, the measure also may be an index

of real-world academic and social competence.37 If so, the

differences between groups on this measure may be

Early Intensive Behavioral Treatment S153

Copyr ight © Lippincott & Wilkins. Unauthorized reproduction of this

article is prohibited.

attributable at least in part to the social skills training that

EIBT participants received. In addition, it may suggest a

need for a high number of treatment hours. Dismantling

studies might help address these possibilities.

The initial collaborative funding efforts by VMRC and

Special Education Local Planning Areas (SELPAs)

resulted in a sustainable treatment environment. Stable

funding, effective guidelines and policies, and positive

communication and working relationships were primary

contributory variables to the feasibility of this study. Thus,

this collaboration may be a useful model for other regions

to employ. Other clinical strengths of this study included

rigorous treatment quality control criteria, stringent staff

training and evaluation standards, multiple internships at

UCLA by supervising clinicians, precise programming for

each individual child, advanced completion programming

and skilled generalization training, yearly follow-ups by an

independent evaluator using multiple outcome measures,

and a centralized process and standardized protocol for

diagnosing children and informing families of EIBT and

other intervention options available to them. Without such

standards, outcomes may differ. Nevertheless, given the

methodological limitations of the present research, there is

a continued need for rigorous outcome studies comparing

EIBT to control conditions or other interventions

Re: RE: RDI and ABA/ OT: In-home ABA

I just wanted to jump in here- I used to work as an ABA consultant

back in the mid to late 90s (and here I am on this side of the

equation, a sad irony I suppose). I am wondering if something has

changed since then about how ABA is done? When I was in the field, we

would adapt the teaching methods as the child progressed, so it wasn't

all academic and " at the table " - as quickly as possible it was made as

natural as possible, and it often came to look a lot like RDi or

floortime. I never saw the kind of frustration that is being

discussed here. I'm not doubting anyone's experience or judgment with

their kids (in fact I haven't ever felt that ABA is appropriate for my

son), but I'm feeling sad that maybe the whole discipline is getting

too entrenched or something? Could the overall quality be going down?

Even back in the 90s we were moving away from drill books and working

towards a more development approach.

Someone asked what exactly ABA helps, per the research, and suggested

that the research shows that it only helps kids sit in school and do

academics. In fact, the criteria for " best outcome " with ABA is that

the child is indistinguishable from typical peers in EVERY way-

socially as well as academically. This means that if I put a " best

outcome " child in a room with typical peers, there is no way to figure

out which child used to have autism- no test, no expert that can do

it. I saw that happen quite a lot. There is this myth that the kids

who do well with ABA become like robots, and don't learn to do things

out of intrinsic motivation. If that is happening it would be the

result of poorly done therapy that is not adapting to meet the child's

changing needs. ABA is a highly adaptable approach. I'm not saying

that it's the end-all-be-all or that it's the best fit for every

child, but it isn't accurate to depict it as unable to address the

social side of life for spectrum kids. There are bad apples in every

field- I've seen some truly incompetent people who claimed to do

floortime (and some appalling stuff touted as ABA). I think that

whatever you choose to do, you do need to pay attention and follow

your gut. If you feel that something isn't right for your child it

probably isn't. I also feel that " good people " (those wonderful

people who really connect with our kids and are able to help them) can

transcend a specific approach.

I'm not trying to bash RDI or floortime, (in fact the agency that I

used to work for has switched over to doing RDI), these sound like

great options that are a wonderful fit for lots of kids. I feel sad

to hear that some people have had such bad experiences with ABA and

glad that they have found other things that help. One thing that has

come up recently that makes me suspect a change in the " mood " of the

field of ABA is that some providers require parents to promise NOT to

do biomed??? I get so angry just thinking of that. When I was in the

field, we wanted the kids to succeed regardless of who got the credit,

and families (in my experience) were encouraged to pursue other

options (there didn't seem to be as many back then though). Back

then, ABA was considered the way biomed is now- " fringe " ,

" experimental " , and probably dangerous, something experts warned

families away from, despite the research. I hope the becoming

accepted and coming into the mainstream as it has hasn't been at a

high price.

-Sierra

>

> HI Kim,

> Hmmm There is a 4 day round me this coming week.....Im guessing we

are not that far from one another

>

> Your son sounds typical of an ABA program IMO, the first year you

see progress because at least the child has some skills.....but those

skills were built upon faulty foundational relationship skills...and

so then starts the behaviors and aggression. I lived thru it and it

was a dark time! My son is no longer behaviorial or aggressive! And

great, ignore the aggression is the advice. I remember. We ignored

it for a whole year....no better. He was actually reaching out to us

with those behaviors....he had no other way to express his

frustration! When I learned about RDI, I learned that he needed to

be regulated with me, just like a baby learns regulation as an infant

thru rocking, etc..... My son never thoroughly understood regulation

with another person. This is a foundation that cannot be lacking, and

is the foundation for children to really care about their parents

perspective.

>

> ABA is proven to do what exactly? All the studies I read talk about

the children sitting in class with their peers. I know lots of ASD

children who can do that. However, that is not success if they

cannot socialize and have friends. ( the studies reference that as a

weak area, so exactly what is the *success*) Nothing breaks my heart

more when a school says they are successful when a child gets all A's,

but cannot socialize at all.

>

> Right before I started RDI, when I was struggling with it all, I

was in my sons class and saw how all the honor roll children could not

function well socially..... It was an ahha moment.

>

> The good news is, your sons anger is because he cannot understand

the world around him because he is lacking developmental milestones of

a very young typical child. Once you work on this, you will see a

changed child!

>

> Have you joined the Autism group that I mentioned earlier?

>

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

Oh wow. yk the more I'm learning about ABA.. the more I'm not sure I want it

either. Course I already have my car for sale and a few people interested.

Yes, I do need to get rid of the car payment anyway.. but.. I can't stand to

think of sitting at some table being forced to do something he d/n

want to do.. what if it makes him cry?

Tell me more. Is this an old style of ABA, sort of like CIO parenting that

people used to think was so great but now they know it causes psychological

harm? Or is it current method of ABA? I've heard not all ABA is created

equal..so I might could still get good ABA therapy with a gentle aba

therapist?? I have to check this place out where I have him on the waiting

list. The problem is, if I don't do their program, I don't know what else to

do. There isn't a RDI training place close by either.. at least, not that I

have found.

And I have dh in my ear saying aba has proven results. The end is we want

our son to be able to function and it's been proven they are more likely to

with intensive ABA therapy. His DXing psychologist didn't mention RDI.

Personal bias? He talked about how school systems like to have their pet

therapy and try to get everyone on it, whether it matches the kid or not

Nita (crew chief) and the crew: 15, Jon 13, 11, 9,

6, Christian (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac, 2/3/08

http://momof6.dotphoto.com <http://momof6.dotphoto.com/> for not

necessarily current pictures

http://nitasspot.blogspot.com

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long enough

to make them all yourself.

I completely agree with this. I was an ABA therapist

for two years and I always struggled internally with

having to ignore what the children were asking for.