HELP: Antifungal treatment - kicking up bacteria?

[Guest guest]

> My son is on day 28 of Diflucan. I have cut down his dose from 50mg to around

30 mg (for about 10 days) because he seemed to be under stress after being on

50mg for some time.

Diflucan is stressful on the liver. That might have been the problem.

> For the past 3 days, my son's stool is getting progressively more stinky. For

the past 3 days, he also has bad breath when he wakes up in the morning

> His tummy also seems increasingly bloated (in fact very, very bloated after

dinner last nite) by the day. Usually his belly is much smaller and more

flattened after bm, but still airy inside though (in fact almost flat on the

first few days of Diflucan). The amount of undigested food in his stool has

increased also (this perhaps explains the smell).

At my house, those were all yeast overgrowth symptoms. Try adding something to

the lower Diflucan dose, like maybe biotin. That will increase the yeast

protocol without over-stressing his liver.

> I have started him on VSL#3 probiotic about a week ago (working from 1/8

teaspoon to currently almost 1/4 teaspoon once per day). I have also started

him on cuturelle 3 days ago (started with 1 capsule/ day to 2 cap/day).

Both of these products contain trace amounts of milk. Would that be a problem

for your child?

>>he has developed this high pitched screaming when he is excited.

That was also a yeast symptom here.

Dana

[Guest guest]

If he has both yeast and bacteria problems, decreasing the yeast will increase

the bacteria, especially if you don't have some form of anti-bacteria in place

(as opposed to just the probiotics). Natural anti-bacterials that have worked

for us are OoO and OLE, we also use Biotin and a No Fenol which will help with

high phenols (in OoO and OLE) plus the enzyme penetrates the cell walls allowing

the yeast/bacteria protocol to work better.

>

> Hi Listmates,

>

> My son is on day 28 of Diflucan. I have cut down his dose from 50mg to around

30 mg (for about 10 days) because he seemed to be under stress after being on

50mg for some time.

>

> For the past 3 days, my son's stool is getting progressively more stinky. For

the past 3 days, he also has bad breath when he wakes up in the morning (the

smell is like when he was down with flu/cough and I gave him some herbal

remedies to treat the bugs), but I am sure the bad breath was not there before

cause I check everyday.

>

> His tummy also seems increasingly bloated (in fact very, very bloated after

dinner last nite) by the day. Usually his belly is much smaller and more

flattened after bm, but still airy inside though (in fact almost flat on the

first few days of Diflucan). The amount of undigested food in his stool has

increased also (this perhaps explains the smell).

>

> I have started him on VSL#3 probiotic about a week ago (working from 1/8

teaspoon to currently almost 1/4 teaspoon once per day). I have also started

him on cuturelle 3 days ago (started with 1 capsule/ day to 2 cap/day).

>

> The only suppls he is on are vitamin B6, Magnesium ciitrate (I give 2 times a

day) zinc and activated charcoal (2X per day). I had to cut down to the minimum

because he was having a hard time processing everything with all that die-off.

My son is high oxalate (son is 207, ref is below 75). HIs urine pH is 6. For

the past few days, whilst happy like normal, he has developed this high pitched

screaming when he is excited. But last night he was unusally sharp with

increased used of language to communicate his needs.

>

> The OAT he did just before he started the diflucan show the following elevated

items for fungal and bacteria:

>

> 4OH benzoate - 2.3 (ref <1)

> 4OH phenylacetate - 80 (ref 20-60)

> 2OH phenylpropionate 0.59 (ref <0.25)

>

> beta ketoglutarate 50.7 (ref <6)

>

> (N.B. he was on Sac. B. at the time)

>

>

> I am worried about the increasing bloatedness and his stinky breath.

>

> (1) Is he having die-off faster than his body is able to process it out?

> (2) Could it be a sign of bacterial overgrowth?

>

> (3)Or is he not tolerating the VSL#3 or cuturelle?

>

> (4) Should I do another OAT or CDSA to check (but they take 3 weeks to turn

around).

>

> Sorry about this being so long, but I am worried sick to my gut thinking that

I must have done something wrong again. I have been struggling with bio-med for

2 years with little success - in fact my son's lab tests went from fairly good

last September and then tumbled down since. His CDSA revealed that he went from

no bacteria to many different kinds of bacteria surfacing over 2 years, no yeast

to yeast present over the course of the 2 years of bio-med. I am so

depressed.......

>

> Many thanks for any input.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dana,

 

thanks - how much biotin to give?  My son is 4 YO, 34lb.

From: danasview <danasview@...>

Subject: [ ] Re: HELP: Antifungal treatment - kicking up bacteria?

Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 2:10 PM

> My son is on day 28 of Diflucan. I have cut down his dose from 50mg to around

30 mg (for about 10 days) because he seemed to be under stress after being on

50mg for some time.

Diflucan is stressful on the liver. That might have been the problem.

> For the past 3 days, my son's stool is getting progressively more stinky. For

the past 3 days, he also has bad breath when he wakes up in the morning

> His tummy also seems increasingly bloated (in fact very, very bloated after

dinner last nite) by the day. Usually his belly is much smaller and more

flattened after bm, but still airy inside though (in fact almost flat on the

first few days of Diflucan). The amount of undigested food in his stool has

increased also (this perhaps explains the smell).

At my house, those were all yeast overgrowth symptoms. Try adding something to

the lower Diflucan dose, like maybe biotin. That will increase the yeast

protocol without over-stressing his liver.

> I have started him on VSL#3 probiotic about a week ago (working from 1/8

teaspoon to currently almost 1/4 teaspoon once per day). I have also started him

on cuturelle 3 days ago (started with 1 capsule/ day to 2 cap/day).

Both of these products contain trace amounts of milk. Would that be a problem

for your child?

>>he has developed this high pitched screaming when he is excited.

That was also a yeast symptom here.

Dana

[Guest guest]

My first response would be that your probiotics are not warding off a

bacterial infection. When I smell bad breath, bad smelling stool, increased

neuro responses like the vocalizing - in my dau that is always bacterial. I

think of it as an ongoing battle as to who wins in the GI tract - bad

bacteria, yeast and good bacteria. You're fighting yeast and trying to load

probtiotics but you may not have the tools to hit the bad bacteria. If you

have something like e. Coli, h. Pylori and others - its hard to kill and I

have found it difficult to beat that without antibiotics. Our whole family

has traded around bacterial infections and worked with our Drs to kill them

For the kids, the CDC protocol is 2 weeks Amoxiciliin, 10 days Zithromax,

and 1 month Prevacid ( antacid) all given simultaneously. You can't let up

on the Prevacid - the h. Pylori bacteria thrives in an acid environment. Its

also hard to get down deep in the GI tract to kill both bacteria and yeast.

We did antibiotics, and all the natural biomed stuff for maybe 18 months

when our DAN put my dau on several doses of IV Secretin. The die off was

incredible - she was hard to live with for about 3 weeks but after that it

was probably the best time of her whole life so I had a look at what is

possible for her behaviorally and cognitively.

If you are having an GI problems Xifaxan was a wonder drug for my husband

and I - talk about die off - it was probably educational to experience what

they are experiencing but they gave us h. Pylori infections and I even had

started an ulcer.

Xifaxan is contained in the GI tract and doesn't cross the intestinal

barrier into the bloodstream - it was very effective at getting at lower GI

infection.

For us Olive Leaf Extract and Oil of Oregano have worked pretty well to keep

the bad bacteria down but you have to stay on it daily.

Both OLE and OoO really can kick some bacterial butt - I can see the

difference in behavior and listening comprehension. I can't really tell what

kind of dosing is needed tho to really kill everything off or if I should

even be thinking of dosing that high.

this is kind of funny but my friend raises alpacas and they use a paste of

Oregano when the babies get bacterial infections resulting in diarrhea -

they fill a big syringe with the paste and push it down their throats - she

says they make terrible faces at the taste but it works. at $20 a big tube

its a lot cheaper than pharma antibiotics - I was even thinking about

getting some for us..

The other thing is I figured out I have to boost the immune system so the

body can do its own job of regulating whats living in the GI tract. I give

milk thistle and am going to add dandelion for liver cleansing, turmeric,

Vit C , Vit D and Mg, Zn, Selenium for immune system support against stress.

I think its also important to keep up with all the B vitamins despite what

you read about B12 contributing to yeast, all the B vitamins are water

soluble and need to be taken in daily as they are not stored and are

absolutely essential for central nervous system functioning. Also fish oil

and choline at our house.

Since we're in the Enzymes group list I have to tell you the thing that made

all the vitamins work is enzymes. In our house nothing worked till we got

all the food intake fully digested and passing thru the gut properly. If you

have 'stuff' laying in the GI tract its just a breeding ground for yeast and

bacteria. And as much as I've tried to go to cheaper enzymes, nothing beats

Enzymedica's Digest Gold, which we used at every substantial meal for

years. I have also recently added Repair because 3 people in my fam have dx

of autoimmune disorder which MD's tell me is untreatable. I'm experimenting

w Repair to see if it works as advertised. I can tell you we have all had a

couple days of feeling very irritable as the toxins are being cleaned up.

Now if it works to reduce inflammation I will be sold for life. After a

long period of using D Gold I started using Country Life Pancreatin to

digest proteins and fats at about every other meal or less substantial

meals. but if we were eating a full meal of protein, fat, carb - like

dinner I used D Gold. I let up and stopped using it for a yr because of the

cost which lets face it is outrageous, and we had all the problems return.

Once I got these GI infections I have battled them off and on and apparently

I'm just more susceptible now that I've ahd the infection in the past. My Dr

told me she wants me to stay on Vit D, a dose of L-Glutamine daily to heal

the GI tract lining and Alpha Lipoic Acid. Her reasons for ALA are different

than for chelating and she doesn't know anything about chelation so is not

thinking in that direction.

I'd talk to your Ped about antibiotics for bacterial infection, dose your

probiotics away from the antibiotics while giving them, and follow on with

the biomed supports.

HTH

[Guest guest]

> Dana,

> thanks - how much biotin to give? My son is 4 YO, 34lb.

My " standard high dose " of biotin is 20mg 3x per day. There have been occasions

tho, when I gave 50mg 3x per day.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Same here, 20mg three times a day seems to be our magic number, occasionally we

increase it as well.

> > Dana,

> > thanks - how much biotin to give? My son is 4 YO, 34lb.

>

>

> My " standard high dose " of biotin is 20mg 3x per day. There have been

occasions tho, when I gave 50mg 3x per day.

>

> Dana

>

[Guest guest]

Seems like an awful low probiotic treatment, and no inulin? The elevated

proprionate and acetate are good though; bifidobacteria and a few lactobacilli

make that

Duncan

>

> Hi Listmates,

>

> My son is on day 28 of Diflucan. I have cut down his dose from 50mg to around

30 mg (for about 10 days) because he seemed to be under stress after being on

50mg for some time.

>

> For the past 3 days, my son's stool is getting progressively more stinky. For

the past 3 days, he also has bad breath when he wakes up in the morning (the

smell is like when he was down with flu/cough and I gave him some herbal

remedies to treat the bugs), but I am sure the bad breath was not there before

cause I check everyday.

>

> His tummy also seems increasingly bloated (in fact very, very bloated after

dinner last nite) by the day. Usually his belly is much smaller and more

flattened after bm, but still airy inside though (in fact almost flat on the

first few days of Diflucan). The amount of undigested food in his stool has

increased also (this perhaps explains the smell).

>

> I have started him on VSL#3 probiotic about a week ago (working from 1/8

teaspoon to currently almost 1/4 teaspoon once per day). I have also started

him on cuturelle 3 days ago (started with 1 capsule/ day to 2 cap/day).

>

> The only suppls he is on are vitamin B6, Magnesium ciitrate (I give 2 times a

day) zinc and activated charcoal (2X per day). I had to cut down to the minimum

because he was having a hard time processing everything with all that die-off.

My son is high oxalate (son is 207, ref is below 75). HIs urine pH is 6. For

the past few days, whilst happy like normal, he has developed this high pitched

screaming when he is excited. But last night he was unusally sharp with

increased used of language to communicate his needs.

>

> The OAT he did just before he started the diflucan show the following elevated

items for fungal and bacteria:

>

> 4OH benzoate - 2.3 (ref <1)

> 4OH phenylacetate - 80 (ref 20-60)

> 2OH phenylpropionate 0.59 (ref <0.25)

>

> beta ketoglutarate 50.7 (ref <6)

>

> (N.B. he was on Sac. B. at the time)

>

>

> I am worried about the increasing bloatedness and his stinky breath.

>

> (1) Is he having die-off faster than his body is able to process it out?

> (2) Could it be a sign of bacterial overgrowth?

>

> (3)Or is he not tolerating the VSL#3 or cuturelle?

>

> (4) Should I do another OAT or CDSA to check (but they take 3 weeks to turn

around).

>

> Sorry about this being so long, but I am worried sick to my gut thinking that

I must have done something wrong again. I have been struggling with bio-med for

2 years with little success - in fact my son's lab tests went from fairly good

last September and then tumbled down since. His CDSA revealed that he went from

no bacteria to many different kinds of bacteria surfacing over 2 years, no yeast

to yeast present over the course of the 2 years of bio-med. I am so

depressed.......

>

[Guest guest]

Duncan,

 

Many thanks for your reply.

 

So you reckon I should increase his probiotic intake?  Right now he is on 1/4

tsp VSL#3 once per day and cuturelle (GFCF version) 2 caps once a day also.

 

Forgive my ignorance, I thought the elevated bacterial markers indicate he has

bacterial dysbiosis and presence of pathogenic bacteria.  Actually someone told

me the 2OH phenylpropionate means presence of clostridia.  My son was on Custom

Probiotics at the time (which contains bifidum and lacto. strains of bacteria),

and I thought they weren't helping him but from what you are saying, it seems

that the custom probiotic has colonised well, but I just need to give him more

varied strains of different bacteria.

 

Many thanks

From: Duncan Crow <duncancrow@...>

Subject: Re: HELP: Antifungal treatment - kicking up bacteria?

candidiasis

Date: Saturday, July 11, 2009, 10:26 PM

Seems like an awful low probiotic treatment, and no inulin? The elevated

proprionate and acetate are good though; bifidobacteria and a few lactobacilli

make that

Duncan

>

> Hi Listmates,

>

> My son is on day 28 of Diflucan. I have cut down his dose from 50mg to around

30 mg (for about 10 days) because he seemed to be under stress after being on

50mg for some time.

>

> For the past 3 days, my son's stool is getting progressively more stinky. For

the past 3 days, he also has bad breath when he wakes up in the morning (the

smell is like when he was down with flu/cough and I gave him some herbal

remedies to treat the bugs), but I am sure the bad breath was not there before

cause I check everyday.

>

> His tummy also seems increasingly bloated (in fact very, very bloated after

dinner last nite) by the day. Usually his belly is much smaller and more

flattened after bm, but still airy inside though (in fact almost flat on the

first few days of Diflucan). The amount of undigested food in his stool has

increased also (this perhaps explains the smell).

>

> I have started him on VSL#3 probiotic about a week ago (working from 1/8

teaspoon to currently almost 1/4 teaspoon once per day). I have also started him

on cuturelle 3 days ago (started with 1 capsule/ day to 2 cap/day).

>

> The only suppls he is on are vitamin B6, Magnesium ciitrate (I give 2 times a

day) zinc and activated charcoal (2X per day). I had to cut down to the minimum

because he was having a hard time processing everything with all that die-off.

My son is high oxalate (son is 207, ref is below 75). HIs urine pH is 6. For the

past few days, whilst happy like normal, he has developed this high pitched

screaming when he is excited. But last night he was unusally sharp with

increased used of language to communicate his needs.

>

> The OAT he did just before he started the diflucan show the following elevated

items for fungal and bacteria:

>

> 4OH benzoate - 2.3 (ref <1)

> 4OH phenylacetate - 80 (ref 20-60)

> 2OH phenylpropionate 0.59 (ref <0.25)

>

> beta ketoglutarate 50.7 (ref <6)

>

> (N.B. he was on Sac. B. at the time)

>

>

> I am worried about the increasing bloatedness and his stinky breath.

>

> (1) Is he having die-off faster than his body is able to process it out?

> (2) Could it be a sign of bacterial overgrowth?

>

> (3)Or is he not tolerating the VSL#3 or cuturelle?

>

> (4) Should I do another OAT or CDSA to check (but they take 3 weeks to turn

around).

>

> Sorry about this being so long, but I am worried sick to my gut thinking that

I must have done something wrong again. I have been struggling with bio-med for

2 years with little success - in fact my son's lab tests went from fairly good

last September and then tumbled down since. His CDSA revealed that he went from

no bacteria to many different kinds of bacteria surfacing over 2 years, no yeast

to yeast present over the course of the 2 years of bio-med. I am so depressed...

.....

>

[Guest guest]

, it seems 1/4 tsp would be a remarkably low dose. I just answered with a

bit more detail a few posts ago but in addition to applying various strains

you'd need to use the inulin to establish a culture.

Duncan

> >

> > Hi Listmates,

> >

> > My son is on day 28 of Diflucan. I have cut down his dose from 50mg to

around 30 mg (for about 10 days) because he seemed to be under stress after

being on 50mg for some time.

> >

> > For the past 3 days, my son's stool is getting progressively more stinky.

For the past 3 days, he also has bad breath when he wakes up in the morning (the

smell is like when he was down with flu/cough and I gave him some herbal

remedies to treat the bugs), but I am sure the bad breath was not there before

cause I check everyday.

> >

> > His tummy also seems increasingly bloated (in fact very, very bloated after

dinner last nite) by the day. Usually his belly is much smaller and more

flattened after bm, but still airy inside though (in fact almost flat on the

first few days of Diflucan). The amount of undigested food in his stool has

increased also (this perhaps explains the smell).

> >

> > I have started him on VSL#3 probiotic about a week ago (working from 1/8

teaspoon to currently almost 1/4 teaspoon once per day). I have also started him

on cuturelle 3 days ago (started with 1 capsule/ day to 2 cap/day).

> >

> > The only suppls he is on are vitamin B6, Magnesium ciitrate (I give 2 times

a day) zinc and activated charcoal (2X per day). I had to cut down to the

minimum because he was having a hard time processing everything with all that

die-off. My son is high oxalate (son is 207, ref is below 75). HIs urine pH is

6. For the past few days, whilst happy like normal, he has developed this high

pitched screaming when he is excited. But last night he was unusally sharp with

increased used of language to communicate his needs.

> >

> > The OAT he did just before he started the diflucan show the following

elevated items for fungal and bacteria:

> >

> > 4OH benzoate - 2.3 (ref <1)

> > 4OH phenylacetate - 80 (ref 20-60)

> > 2OH phenylpropionate 0.59 (ref <0.25)

> >

> > beta ketoglutarate 50.7 (ref <6)

> >

> > (N.B. he was on Sac. B. at the time)

> >

> >

> > I am worried about the increasing bloatedness and his stinky breath.

> >

> > (1) Is he having die-off faster than his body is able to process it out?

> > (2) Could it be a sign of bacterial overgrowth?

> >

> > (3)Or is he not tolerating the VSL#3 or cuturelle?

> >

> > (4) Should I do another OAT or CDSA to check (but they take 3 weeks to turn

around).

> >

> > Sorry about this being so long, but I am worried sick to my gut thinking

that I must have done something wrong again. I have been struggling with bio-med

for 2 years with little success - in fact my son's lab tests went from fairly

good last September and then tumbled down since. His CDSA revealed that he went

from no bacteria to many different kinds of bacteria surfacing over 2 years, no

yeast to yeast present over the course of the 2 years of bio-med. I am so

depressed... ....

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

VSL#3 is an extremely high potency (but quite expensive) probiotic. One dose

(i.e. one packet or two capsules) contains approx 450 billion bacteria. These

high doses of probiotics has been shown to help many folks with digestive

disorders including those in double blind placebo controlled peer reviewed

studies using VSL#3.

For severe Ulcerative Colitis, they recommend up to 8 packets or 3.6 trillion

bacteria. As a comparison, many probiotics contain less than 10 billion per

dose.

You still need to feed the bacteria with inulin to get the full benefit though.

> >

> > Duncan,

> >  

> > Many thanks for your reply.

> >  

> > So you reckon I should increase his probiotic intake?  Right now he is on

1/4 tsp VSL#3 once per day and cuturelle (GFCF version) 2 caps once a day also.