Re: massive doses of probiotics (was: Dates OK? and Arthritis)

[Guest guest]

I have not heard good things about Primal Defense. My WAPF chapter leader said it used to be good but their ownership changed and they have gone downhill. The only probiotics I know of that promote colonization are BioKult and ThreeLac. I know ThreeLac works because after my OBGYN put me on the birth control pill earlier this year, I started having some of my old candida symptoms (allergies, sores in my nose that wouldn't heal) within a month or two of taking it. I didn't realize that the birth control pill killed off good bacteria. I got off of it as soon as I realized -- but my symptoms remained. I tried over-the-counter probiotics and it did nothing for me. A month later I got on ThreeLac (just one package per day) and the allergies and sores in my nose were GONE within days.

Yes, it is expensive but you don't have to do this for very long --

massive doses for a few months then you can cut down to a maintenance

dose.When I recovered from candida, my doctor (a naturopath) gave me high doses of pharmaceutical grade probioics -- stuff that was not available in stores or online at the time (it was 1995). I don't remember what it was. I followed Crook's Yeast Connection diet. I was muscle tested by my doc who told me to also get off ALL forms of sugar (not just refined) as well as wheat which I was allergic to.

And what candida diet protocol did you

follow? The reason I'm planning on starting the GAPS diet is because I've

been bloated for several years now and I'm pretty sure it's due to

candida overgrowth. I have no other symptoms other than occasional external vaginal

itch when I eat too many simple sugars and some gas with certain foods. I do

take digestive enzymes and betaine HCl with every meal so it's possible

that all foods make me gassy and the enzymes and HCl take care of most of it.

But mostly, I think starches are my main issue.

[Guest guest]

suze

in the gaps book it says that you need to take 15-20 billion probiotics so that

adds up to

8-9 capsules of bio-kult. i don't know how many caps that is for primal defense

but just

add them up till you get to that number, if that makes any sense. then you need

to stay

on this dose for at least 6 months! but work up slowly to that dose then when

that times

up work slowly down to a maintenance dose which is half the theraputic dose.

sam

> >>You have to add massive doses of good bacteria to get them to colonize --

> and then you have to maintain them. But you can't just eat maintenance doses

> of probiotics (kefir, sauerkraut or over the counter probiotics) if the

> yeast has grown out of control. You have to take very high doses for a while

> until the yeast is under control -- then you can just do the maintenance

> dose. <<

>

>

>

> Ann Marie,

>

> How much is a massive dose? I take 2-4 capsules of Primal Defense Ultra per

> day. I'd take more, but this stuff is expensive!

>

> And what candida diet protocol did you follow? The reason I'm planning on

> starting the GAPS diet is because I've been bloated for several years now

> and I'm pretty sure it's due to candida overgrowth. I have no other symptoms

> other than occasional external vaginal itch when I eat too many simple

> sugars and some gas with certain foods. I do take digestive enzymes and

> betaine HCl with every meal so it's possible that all foods make me gassy

> and the enzymes and HCl take care of most of it. But mostly, I think

> starches are my main issue.

>

>

> Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Suze,

It seems odd to me that a person with a good diet and

taking a good dose of a good probiotic could have

ongoing candida problems unless something was still

killing off the good bacteria or it wasn't colonizing

like it needs to. The training I did with Dr. Yanick

of Quantafoods says that taking enzymes will kill

good bacteria. This was really hard for me to swallow

knowing that a lot of people swear by enzymes -

helping them overcome all sorts of issues. I asked

for references but never got them. When I search for

info on this on the web, I did come across a

statement on enzymesandstuff.com which said in their

extensive review of the literature, there is evidence

that enzymes kill good bacteria, especially the

protein-digesting enzymes (proteases and pepsin, I

assume). I wrote to this website and asked for the

references/studies where they got this information

from but I never heard back from them.

I just have to wonder if you are killing off good

bacteria with your enzymes. Some HCL products also

contain pepsin - so it might be a factor to.

Dr. Yanick also says that probiotics have to be fed

in specific ways in order for them to colonize.He has

products that are suppposed to help feed the good

bacteria. He also thinks most probiotics on the

market aren't good enough to stick (but he is pretty

critical of everything on the market except his

products so it is hard to know what is true and what

is his ego at being the best!) He has a product that

is suppose to help your body produce its own enzymes

(digeszyme).

My other thought would be...do you have any mercury

fillings? These will interfere with getting rid of

candida and repopulating the gut.

I do think that good bacteria helps breakdown

starches (any food) so there seems to be a good case

for assuming that your not repoplulating your gut

sufficiently or killing them off faster than they can

take hold.

Barb

Ann Marie,

How much is a massive dose? I take 2-4 capsules of

Primal Defense Ultra per

day. I'd take more, but this stuff is expensive!

And what candida diet protocol did you follow? The

reason I'm planning on

starting the GAPS diet is because I've been bloated

for several years now

and I'm pretty sure it's due to candida overgrowth. I

have no other symptoms

other than occasional external vaginal itch when I

eat too many simple

sugars and some gas with certain foods. I do take

digestive enzymes and

betaine HCl with every meal so it's possible that all

foods make me gassy

and the enzymes and HCl take care of most of it. But

mostly, I think

starches are my main issue.

Suze

[Guest guest]

Wow that is really interesting Barb! I have never heard that before. On Jan 4, 2008 9:43 AM, bdcarr@... <bdcarr@...

> wrote:I just have to wonder if you are killing off goodbacteria with your enzymes. Some HCL products also

contain pepsin - so it might be a factor to.

[Guest guest]

>>I

have not heard good things about Primal Defense. My WAPF chapter leader said it

used to be good but their ownership changed and they have gone downhill. <<

Hmmm…I’m

pretty sure Jordan Rubin still owns GOL, which makes PD Ultra. What happened

several years ago is that they changed the formula of regular PD and it stopped

working for me and several others who were using it. So I stopped using it.

Then they came out with PD *Ultra*

which supposedly was similar to the original formula which worked for a lot of

people. So I tried that and it’s been helpful. I did use Threelac for a

while and that worked VERY well in terms of its effects on normalizing my

stools.

I’ve tried biokult and it didn’t seem to do anything at all for me,

but I still have some and will use it up and see if it helps.

I’ve thought about going back to Threelac but I think it contains some

additives that are not allowed on GAPS.

I still

have no idea which product I should take since they all seem to contain

additives that may not be GAPS-approved. I guess there’s always Custom

Probiotics but they don’t have the diversity of strains like PD Ultra or

BioKult, which I think is important.

Suze

[Guest guest]

> Suze,

> It seems odd to me that a person with a good diet and

> taking a good dose of a good probiotic could have

> ongoing candida problems unless something was still

> killing off the good bacteria or it wasn't colonizing

> like it needs to.

Yes, well I do eat some junk amongst the good stuff and I drink beer

regularly. I was also on birth control pills for years not knowing the

negative effects. Then I believe I had a strong viral infection for a while.

And all this after almost 40 years of a SAD diet so I don't think it's too

surprising that I might have candida overgrowth. My mom is prone to this too

so I may have even inherited some gut dysbiosis from her :-(

The training I did with Dr. Yanick

> of Quantafoods says that taking enzymes will kill

> good bacteria. This was really hard for me to swallow

> knowing that a lot of people swear by enzymes -

> helping them overcome all sorts of issues. I asked

> for references but never got them. When I search for

> info on this on the web, I did come across a

> statement on enzymesandstuff.com which said in their

> extensive review of the literature, there is evidence

> that enzymes kill good bacteria, especially the

> protein-digesting enzymes (proteases and pepsin, I

> assume). I wrote to this website and asked for the

> references/studies where they got this information

> from but I never heard back from them.

Thanks, this is interesting. But I imagine that IF enzymes destroy good

bacteria it would most likely be when they are in excess. Otherwise our own

indigenous enzymes as well as the enzymes we consume in food would destroy

our good bacteria, which, I suppose could be the case, but doesn't make a

lot of sense to me. I'd like to see some hard data on that before believing

it. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that I need more data to form an opinion

and that replacing enzymes or HCl that one is no longer producing only seems

like a wise thing to me.

I take 1 Digest Gold plant enzyme capsule with each meal to replace the

enzymes my body apparenty isn't producing, so I'm quite comfortable with

that. I actually think I should probably take more but these enzymes are

expensive.

>

> I just have to wonder if you are killing off good

> bacteria with your enzymes. Some HCL products also

> contain pepsin - so it might be a factor to.

There's really no point in taking HCl without pepsin, as pepsin is required

to digest protein so I always take HCl/pepsin together. But again, this is

to replace that which my body doesn't produce so I don't really think it's

going to kill off my good bacteria any more than the HCl/pepsin that it's

replacing would.

>

> Dr. Yanick also says that probiotics have to be fed

> in specific ways in order for them to colonize.He has

> products that are suppposed to help feed the good

> bacteria. He also thinks most probiotics on the

> market aren't good enough to stick (but he is pretty

> critical of everything on the market except his

> products so it is hard to know what is true and what

> is his ego at being the best!) He has a product that

> is suppose to help your body produce its own enzymes

> (digeszyme).

I will look at that product. Thanks!

>

> My other thought would be...do you have any mercury

> fillings? These will interfere with getting rid of

> candida and repopulating the gut.

I had them removed. Come to think of it, I don't recall if my bloating

started after or before that, but it was around the same time period.

Wait...no...the bloating started first. I went to a biololgical dentist and

did some chelating afterwards, but I suppose there could still be a heavy

burden of mercury in my body somewhere.

Thanks for your insights Barb.

Suze

[Guest guest]

> suze

> in the gaps book it says that you need to take 15-20 billion probiotics so

that adds

> up to

> 8-9 capsules of bio-kult. i don't know how many caps that is for primal

defense but

> just

> add them up till you get to that number, if that makes any sense. then

you need to

> stay

> on this dose for at least 6 months! but work up slowly to that dose then

when that

> times

> up work slowly down to a maintenance dose which is half the theraputic

dose.

> sam

Thank you Sam! That's what I really needed to know. I did read the book but

forgot that she gave a specific #.

Suze

[Guest guest]

Beer is one thing that *really* feeds the yeast like crazy.

[Guest guest]

suze-

how much bio kult were you taking before? i was just wondering because i've

never heard

bio kult not work for someone before.

sam

> >>I have not heard good things about Primal Defense. My WAPF chapter leader

> said it used to be good but their ownership changed and they have gone

> downhill. <<

>

> Hmmm.I'm pretty sure Jordan Rubin still owns GOL, which makes PD Ultra. What

> happened several years ago is that they changed the formula of regular PD

> and it stopped working for me and several others who were using it. So I

> stopped using it. Then they came out with PD *Ultra* which supposedly was

> similar to the original formula which worked for a lot of people. So I tried

> that and it's been helpful. I did use Threelac for a while and that worked

> VERY well in terms of its effects on normalizing my stools.

>

>

> I've tried biokult and it didn't seem to do anything at all for me, but I

> still have some and will use it up and see if it helps.

>

> I've thought about going back to Threelac but I think it contains some

> additives that are not allowed on GAPS.

>

> I still have no idea which product I should take since they all seem to

> contain additives that may not be GAPS-approved. I guess there's always

> Custom Probiotics but they don't have the diversity of strains like PD Ultra

> or BioKult, which I think is important.

> Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Suze,

I don't think beer by itself would cause a yeast

overgrowth either. As you know, there are many

factors we are dealing with in this modern age that

our ancestors didn't have to deal with so we have to

be more careful in order to maintain our health. I do

think that once you have gotten out of balance, you

can't partake in the same types of things that

healthy/balanced people can until after you have

gotten back to balance. It is a shame too, I

certainly like my beer, wine and my husbands homemade

mead!

Barb

> Suze,

> Ah....well, the beer and the junk and the diet

> history makes things look a lot different.

I don't think that beer in and of itself would cause

a yeast overgrowth,

especially if it were unpasteurized beer, like

lambics that are full of live

probiotics. I think it's just one thing in a matrix

of issues that

contribute to the overgrowth. This is the same thing

that Dr. Natasha said

about vaccines and autism - the final straw that

broke the camels back.

Although it took many straws to break the back.

My ancestors (ish, German and Dutch) drowned

themselves in beer and as

far as it seems, weren't all suffering from yeast

overgrowth. But when you

add up a lifetime of SAD, BC pills, antibiotics, and

all the other things

that weaken our immune systems and cause dysbiosis in

modern times, beer

could well be the final straw :-(

Suze

[Guest guest]

The beer would not have caused the yeast overgrowth. I don't think anyone said that.If you remember, Suze said she was on birth control pills for years. She also suspected inheritance of flora imbalance.

We're not talking about what caused it -- we're talking about how to get rid of it.Continued consumption of beer does make it hard to get rid of the yeast overgrowth once it is established. Not to say you can't ever drink beer again. But while you are trying to kill off an overgrowth of candida, I would avoid it.

On Jan 8, 2008 9:13 AM, bdcarr@... <bdcarr@...> wrote:

Suze,I don't think beer by itself would cause a yeastovergrowth either.

[Guest guest]

It is a shame too, I

> certainly like my beer, wine and my husbands homemade

> mead!

> Barb

Well wine (dry wine) is permitted on GAPS and I assume Mead might be too

since honey is. So you might be able to enjoy these if you are doing GAPS

unless you are on a very strict version. :-)

Suze

[Guest guest]

Suze,

I had a VERY severe gut problem/dysbiosis. I was getting much better with diet and other interventions and I started drinking more wine and mead (not excessive - 1-2 glasses 1-2x/week). I did ok with that until some massive, prolonged stress hit. The excess cortisol really wreaked havoc on my gut mucosa and I've found that I have to go off all wine/mead again - or I feel bad. Such a shame because my husband's getting pretty good with his mead making! And, since we make it ourselves, we aren't adding sulfites and such and I know what it is in. Unfortunately, we think we just lost our bees!! Don't know where they went... We'll get more this spring.

For me, I find that even if I seem to tolerate something questionable (like dry wine), it slows down my progress. Also, I tend to be good, do well, start cheating or expanding and then go back down. I find that I never really get myself back to full gut health because I don't give myself enough time to really heal - and I'm so tired of being so strict. Also, I have something else going on structurally in my body that makes it especially hard to heal my gut and it takes SOOOO long.

Barb

Well wine (dry wine) is permitted on GAPS and I assume Mead might be toosince honey is. So you might be able to enjoy these if you are doing GAPSunless you are on a very strict version. :-)Suze