What would you do?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/25/99 11:02:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

MeggyEm@... writes:

<< Also, does anyone

have any Christian based information on vaccs that I could send. >>

I would really be interested in some of this info. myself!

Robin, I am sorry you had that experience. It's such a downer to be

somewhere and see posters like that! Especially at church! I remember one

time we were at a fair having a great time with the family and I look up on

this big wall next to the fried dough place and there was this huge pix of a

baby crying and it was a big scare tactic about immunizing and how if you

don't your baby could die. I was appalled, needless to say!

Hang in there!

Kerin

[Guest guest]

What a question! While there are some religions/denominations that speak

directly about medicine I am pretty sure that the United Methodist do not.

I just made a quick call to my pastor and, although we are not UM but not

terribly different in doctrine, our denomination just holds the stance that

God will heal if it's His will, be it with or without doctors. If you go to

the doctor, then God will use that method if He chooses, if you don't He

will do things his way that way too. I think it is irresponsible of a

church that does not teach an anti- " medical establishment " doctrine to say

anything either way on the matter. It's entirely a personal decision.

As for how to deal with the church members, I think it would be something

that I would write a letter about. Even if you don't plan to attend the

church because of other reasons, that poster might be the sole reason

another family might choose to not attend. Different times our church heard

reasons why visitors did not return and it is certainly enlightening.

I am not sure there is a definite stance that Christians vs. non-Christians

use to base their vaccination decision. I know that I didn't think anything

pro or con of doctors before my research. I thought if I needed them I'd

go, if not I wouldn't. Now I am not so sure that there are very many times

that I need them. I have been applying the same reasoning to vaccinations

as I did to food and eating lately. I followed the Weigh Down Diet book,

which in a nutshell teaches that God made our bodies perfectly and if we

would just listen to them we'd be healthier (and lose weight). I lost 45

pounds in 4 months by eating whatever I want if I was hungry. Likewise, I

believe that God made our immune systems perfectly and if we allow them to

work as intended, we will be healthy(ier). I think some diseases that we

get vaccinations for that are not typically deadly (like the flu, chicken

pox, etc), but many take medicines to lessen the symptoms of, can do more

for us than boost our immune system. If you lessen the symptoms with

medicine, sure, you can go back to work, still be productive, etc. but

perhaps there was a reason God intended for you to be sick. They will be

gone with or without medicine in a week or so and perhaps if you were home

nursing yourself or your child you would learn patience, give yourself some

rest, take time to spend with God, spend more time with your sick child,

etc. that you might not otherwise do. There is a bigger picture that God

sees. He knows why we're sick and if and when we're going to get better.

I think we're interfering too much with what He wants for us.

All of this is, of course, just my humble opinion. =)

cdswartz@...

[Guest guest]

Robin,

I would call (this way there is no documentation...in case they decided

to be pricks and try to prick your child) the pastor. I would explain

that you have several concerns... and that one of them revolves around

the pushing irresponsibly of the vaccines. I would let him know that

usually under state statuates there is " protection " from lawsuits for

the schools/government but that unless they present both sides re:

vaccines they could be seen as being irresponsible esp. if a child had a

serious reaction and the parents felt pushed because of the church.

Just my thoughts. The other thing is you could send some stuff

anonymously...and say you were in the church recently...

MeggyEm@... wrote:

>

> From: MeggyEm@...

>

> My husband and I recently moved and we have just started looking for a church

> to attend locally. This past Sunday, we went to a nearby Methodist church.

> (We are not necessarily ones who are one religion or the other, but believe

> that we are Christians). We have been firm in our decision about

> vaccinations for almost 13 months now, when our daughter had a reaction to

> her two month vaccinations. I am a registered nurse and learned more over

> the past 13 months than I did in my entire nursing education. So, we are

> strong in our decisions about health care and vaccination.

> During this trip to this church, I attempted to bring my youngest daughter

> into the service with us. However, this only lasted about 10 minutes. I

> decided to take her to the nursery to see how it would be if we ever were to

> attend again and decide to let her stay there. I must say, I was shocked by

> what I found. When I entered the room, I almost immediately noticed a

> laminated poster on the wall. It was a beautiful picture of an infant. The

> wording on the poster was in Spanish. I am not fluent in Spanish, but do

> know a few words. I got closer to the poster and realized it was a poster

> from HHS on Immunization!!! I was flabbergasted. I couldn't believe that

> this would be in a church nursery (By the way, there is no school at this

> church) I just felt like even churches that do not speak out directly on

> vaccs, would just remain neutral on the subject.

> We were not pleased with the service and with this " discovery " in the

> nursery, so we have chosen not to return. However, I am torn between what I

> will tell anyone who might call on us. I have also thought of writing a

> letter to the pastor about the presence of this poster.

> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what they would do? Also, does anyone

> have any Christian based information on vaccs that I could send. I am

> compiling what I have now, and find that I don't have as much as I thought

> that I did.

> Thanks

> Robin

>

>

--

@...

***************************************************************

We Must Have The Freedom To Choose & Respect Everyone's Choice

***************************************************************

Any information obtained here is not to be construed as medical

OR legal advice. The decision to vaccinate and how you

implement that decision is yours and yours alone.

[Guest guest]

I'd inform them on the fact that some of the vaccines are made from aborted

fetal

tissue and they now can not feign ignorance. In a way, they are practicing

medicine. I always wondered why one doesn't sue say Osco for promoting a drug

when they have no license to do so. I'd send scriptures with a long letter

stating their legal implication. Maybe I wouldn't be so angry as *I* am right

now

though. I'm just still working through all my issues regarding my child's

vaccination status and her ignorant father.

MeggyEm@... wrote:

> From: MeggyEm@...

>

> My husband and I recently moved and we have just started looking for a church

> to attend locally. This past Sunday, we went to a nearby Methodist church.

> (We are not necessarily ones who are one religion or the other, but believe

> that we are Christians). We have been firm in our decision about

> vaccinations for almost 13 months now, when our daughter had a reaction to

> her two month vaccinations. I am a registered nurse and learned more over

> the past 13 months than I did in my entire nursing education. So, we are

> strong in our decisions about health care and vaccination.

> During this trip to this church, I attempted to bring my youngest daughter

> into the service with us. However, this only lasted about 10 minutes. I

> decided to take her to the nursery to see how it would be if we ever were to

> attend again and decide to let her stay there. I must say, I was shocked by

> what I found. When I entered the room, I almost immediately noticed a

> laminated poster on the wall. It was a beautiful picture of an infant. The

> wording on the poster was in Spanish. I am not fluent in Spanish, but do

> know a few words. I got closer to the poster and realized it was a poster

> from HHS on Immunization!!! I was flabbergasted. I couldn't believe that

> this would be in a church nursery (By the way, there is no school at this

> church) I just felt like even churches that do not speak out directly on

> vaccs, would just remain neutral on the subject.

> We were not pleased with the service and with this " discovery " in the

> nursery, so we have chosen not to return. However, I am torn between what I

> will tell anyone who might call on us. I have also thought of writing a

> letter to the pastor about the presence of this poster.

> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what they would do? Also, does anyone

> have any Christian based information on vaccs that I could send. I am

> compiling what I have now, and find that I don't have as much as I thought

> that I did.

> Thanks

> Robin

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have had that experience too, its usually not real churches but

cults that try to push you. REAL churches arent pushy and don't do

such things. The pushy people and the cults prey on the 'vunerable'

because they think LP's and the disabled are 'easy targets'. They

think we are vunerable because we are disabeld and/or an LP and that

we are lonely desparate people are looking for friends and think we

will go willingly.

Like you said, if you wanted to go to a church, you would go, we

don't need to be solicited, its annoying and doesnt make me more into

going.

I just smile and say thank you, but, I am not interested

~Bon

>

> Hi!

>

> In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People

coming up to me and inviting me to their church.

>

> The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and

was headed toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi

and I said Hi back to him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to

you. He walks over to his car and tells me to get in. I said there

is 'no way' I'm getting in that car with you, do I look that stupid.

Then he say do you know where " such & such " church is in the city...I

said no I don't I m not from this city...then I turned and walked

into Mcs.

>

> The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having

lunch. I noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You can

always tell when they are watching you or at least I can. The guy he

was eating with left to pay the check. He gets up walks over to my

table. Hi what's your name? I say why you want to know for. He says

I want to invite you to a church downtown. It is " such & such

church " . I'll give you the number. He writes it down & walks away.

>

> I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I

want to go to Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their

church on me.

>

> And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I

had gotten in his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

>

> Thanks for your time

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

We've never met up with this situation, but we did have a friend who wanted

to know if I wanted her church group pray to " heal " Stefan. She seemed

surprised when I told her he didn't need " healing " and was already one of

God's best works! )

Vita

At 08:06 PM 8/4/02 -0700, pmd wrote:

>

>Hi!

>

>In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People coming up

to me and inviting me to their church.

>

>The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and was

headed toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi and I said

Hi back to him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to you. He walks

over to his car and tells me to get in. I said there is 'no way' I'm

getting in that car with you, do I look that stupid. Then he say do you

know where " such & such " church is in the city...I said no I don't I m not

from this city...then I turned and walked into Mcs.

>

>The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having lunch.

I noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You can always tell

when they are watching you or at least I can. The guy he was eating with

left to pay the check. He gets up walks over to my table. Hi what's your

name? I say why you want to know for. He says I want to invite you to a

church downtown. It is " such & such church " . I'll give you the number. He

writes it down & walks away.

>

>I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I want to

go to Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their church on me.

>

>And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I had

gotten in his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

>

>Thanks for your time

>

>

>

>---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Aside from the guy asking you to get in his car, I'm not sure what you're

bothered about. It's not unusual to ask people to check out a church you're

excited about. I just asked my new neighbors if they'd like to visit my church.

And it's not difficult to say, " No thanks. "

I do understand some caution in that people seem to feel free to ask us things

they wouldn't ask " average " people - my sister is always amazed when a stranger

walks up and asks how old I am. But that doesn't mean that the person asking is

malicious or a " wacko. "

The healing thing is another issue - I ask for prayer when I'm going through

surgery or something difficult, but I certainly don't need to be " healed " of

dwarfism, and I make that clear.

[Guest guest]

I just broke my own rule! I hate it when people don't sign their e-mails!

I am Alyce of Groves, TX. :-)

[Guest guest]

I think asking a neighbor about church (though I probably wouldn't do that

either)and asking a total stranger are two completely different matters.

I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me - strangers just walking

up to me and asking my name for their prayer group; inviting me to come to a

healing group; or just plain old prosletizing (Goes something like this: Have

you found the Lord? He might be able to help you with that,they say. What is

THAT, I ask? Well, you're so short,they reply. Really, I ask, Will the Lord

give me an extra foot or so? Well, probably not, they say, but he can help you

with that anyway. Hmmm.) I think at the least it's incredibly insensitive -

more like insulting as far as I'm concerned. Yes, a little wacko, too.

H.

[Guest guest]

Now the first offer I agree, however the second offer, I would have asked the

gentleman why.

Unfortunately, when some APs have a friend who is a single LP and they see an LP

who is the right age and sex, they have a tendency to play matchmaker. How do I

know that my friends have done it to me.

Now they didn't invite the LPs to church, however they do invite them to

parties. None ever showed (of course explaining logic to a well-meaning

disappointed friend is impossible)

One friend who ran a job placement service even tried to have us interview for

the same job at the same time. One of those accidently on purpose chance

meeting. Problem was we were both busy professionals in two different

professions, so it never worked.

For those males on this list who lived, and/or visited Cincinnati and been asked

by a stranger to attend a party, please forgive my well-meaning friends. If in

the future you live and/or visit Cincinnati and are asked by a stranger to

attend a party, Ask them if Martha will be there? If they say yes, Reply - Oh,

she warned me about you!!:-)

Take Care

Martha

>>> pmd <pmd9020@...> 08/04/02 11:06PM >>>

Hi!

In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People coming up to me

and inviting me to their church.

The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and was headed

toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi and I said Hi back to

him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to you. He walks over to his car and

tells me to get in. I said there is 'no way' I'm getting in that car with you,

do I look that stupid. Then he say do you know where " such & such " church is in

the city...I said no I don't I m not from this city...then I turned and walked

into Mcs.

The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having lunch. I

noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You can always tell when

they are watching you or at least I can. The guy he was eating with left to pay

the check. He gets up walks over to my table. Hi what's your name? I say why

you want to know for. He says I want to invite you to a church downtown. It

is " such & such church " . I'll give you the number. He writes it down & walks

away.

I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I want to go to

Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their church on me.

And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I had gotten in

his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

Thanks for your time

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/5/2002 8:02:15 PM, dbradfor@... writes:

<< My response would be " Great! Tell him my name's Dave. Be sure and ask him

to make my penis as big as Satan's. "

Dave >>

So now it seems you should be moderated Dave. Penis is a body part, however

your use of the word on here was rather tasteless and tacky.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 HWhit1852@... wrote:

> Well, you're so short,they reply. Really, I ask, Will the Lord give me

> an extra foot or so? Well, probably not, they say, but he can help

> you with that anyway.

My response would be " Great! Tell him my name's Dave. Be sure and ask him

to make my penis as big as Satan's. "

Dave

[Guest guest]

I heard Satan did not have one at all, which would go to explain why he is so

cranky and mean spirited!

Re: What would you do?

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 HWhit1852@... wrote:

> Well, you're so short,they reply. Really, I ask, Will the Lord give me

> an extra foot or so? Well, probably not, they say, but he can help

> you with that anyway.

My response would be " Great! Tell him my name's Dave. Be sure and ask him

to make my penis as big as Satan's. "

Dave

[Guest guest]

About a month ago I was in town sitting on the curb near my parked car. This

man had seen me and parked his car in back of mine and asked me if I knew how

to get to our mall. I told him where it was he seemed a bit confused which

I then told him again with pointing out destinations to look for. He asked

me if he could follow me. I told him I wasn't going anywhere. I told him

to ask some other people further who had near the street where he needed to

turn. He then asked me if I could come in his truck and show him part of

the way. I said I couldn't do that and good luck finding your place.

Helen

[Guest guest]

At 8:06 PM -0700 8/4/02, pmd wrote:

>Hi!

>

>In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People

>coming up to me and inviting me to their church.

>

>The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and

>was headed toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi

>and I said Hi back to him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to

>you. He walks over to his car and tells me to get in. I said there

>is 'no way' I'm getting in that car with you, do I look that stupid.

>Then he say do you know where " such & such " church is in the

>city...I said no I don't I m not from this city...then I turned and

>walked into Mcs.

>

>The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having

>lunch. I noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You

>can always tell when they are watching you or at least I can. The

>guy he was eating with left to pay the check. He gets up walks over

>to my table. Hi what's your name? I say why you want to know for.

>He says I want to invite you to a church downtown. It is " such &

>such church " . I'll give you the number. He writes it down & walks

>away.

>

>I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I

>want to go to Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their

>church on me.

>

>And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I

>had gotten in his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

>

>Thanks for your time

>

I appreciate your unrest.

I am a lay leader in my United Methodist Church and what I think is

happening is called " evangelizing " . Depending on where you are (the

part of the country) this can be very common and acceptable. But,

you know in a world like this is, people feel defensive and

frightened when they are approached without prior knowledge of the

persons motive.

People who (ok, I am going to get blunt here, but mean no offence)

are " on fire " and want to share their faith can often do so with

abandon. Most of the time this tactic does NOT work. It takes a

minimum of 3 encounters of a positive experience (like invites from

friends whom you trust and earn your attention) for someone to take

evangelizing seriously. Not that cold contacts, like you experience,

don't work, but, not usually.

Approach is everything and when someone feels vulnerable and now

threatened (like your first incident) the whole attempt is in vain.

These people mean well, but here in the North East this kind of

attempt is not very welcomed, nor is it effective.

To tell someone about how YOU feel about YOUR faith has to have some

grounding in some commonality and to establish that you at least need

to have more than a two sentence conversation.

I akin it to someone coming up to you and saying....hey did you see

such and such movie? Well it changed my life! Well...isn't that

nice and what does it have to do with me?

Some denominations and groups are on missions to bring people into

the fold, not that it is necessarily wrong (their motives are pure)

but their methods are something to be desired. Problem is how do you

know who is " pure " and who is not?

The second guy got it better, but should have introduced himself and

left the information. It was obvious him mulling over the approach.

But, if you are going to " hit and run " (so to speak) than do it, and

if God leads an individual to a church, than fine.

The approaches on both cases could have been handled better, and

believe me they very often are. Even as a seasoned Christian (who is

not afraid to talk of God, the Holy Spirit or Jesus) I still know

when say something and when to keep my mouth shut. Truth be told I

give the " power " to the one who really had the ability to change or

move a heart. So, even as a vehicle to share my faith, I know when I

am being moved, when I would be effective and when I have been called

to do such. As Christians, people are called to bring people to the

faith, but we also need to remember we are addressing fellow humans

who are fragile, suspicions, and leery of strangers. We need to take

in the human condition. People who act like plows don't. They are

focused perhaps on God's mission, but sometimes loose sight of God's

children and their concerns and fears.

I know I sounded rather preachy and apologize in advance.

--

*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*

This is a Day of New Beginnings!

Ginny Sargent, Decorative Artist-Designer

Sand Dollar Bay Designs

Lowell, Massachusetts

chriss@...

Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece!

" Art is a collaboration between God and the artist,

and the less the artist does the better. " Andre Gide

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/6/02 3:37:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

kitties77@... writes:

> My home and my castle. I should not have to open my door to sales pitches

> of any kind or answer my phone to the same.

Agree...

>

>

[Guest guest]

So the Mormons, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Church of Scientology are all

cults? Hmmmmm.....one of the ways to spot them then is the shirt and tie. :-)

I am in the process of putting up a sign on my door saying " No

soliciting...commercial, political or spiritual. "

My home and my castle. I should not have to open my door to sales pitches of

any kind or answer my phone to the same.

Karin Redston

Re: What would you do?

I have had that experience too, its usually not real churches but

cults that try to push you. REAL churches arent pushy and don't do

such things. The pushy people and the cults prey on the 'vunerable'

because they think LP's and the disabled are 'easy targets'. They

think we are vunerable because we are disabeld and/or an LP and that

we are lonely desparate people are looking for friends and think we

will go willingly.

Like you said, if you wanted to go to a church, you would go, we

don't need to be solicited, its annoying and doesnt make me more into

going.

I just smile and say thank you, but, I am not interested

~Bon

>

> Hi!

>

> In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People

coming up to me and inviting me to their church.

>

> The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and

was headed toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi

and I said Hi back to him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to

you. He walks over to his car and tells me to get in. I said there

is 'no way' I'm getting in that car with you, do I look that stupid.

Then he say do you know where " such & such " church is in the city...I

said no I don't I m not from this city...then I turned and walked

into Mcs.

>

> The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having

lunch. I noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You can

always tell when they are watching you or at least I can. The guy he

was eating with left to pay the check. He gets up walks over to my

table. Hi what's your name? I say why you want to know for. He says

I want to invite you to a church downtown. It is " such & such

church " . I'll give you the number. He writes it down & walks away.

>

> I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I

want to go to Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their

church on me.

>

> And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I

had gotten in his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

>

> Thanks for your time

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

,

Ginny’s post was public which I find personally offensive and socially

damaging so I replied similarly because that type of attitude promotes

what I consider excessive insensitivity to diverse points of view on

this topic and an attitude contra productive to legitimate education.

I'm sorry we don't agree on this but a public post of this nature

screams for a public response to make clear that there are other points

of view to be considered. I notice your post to me was public as well so

here’s my post, public.

Incidentally, I thought your post on Verne doing that chicken dance

benefit thingy (I didn’t get a real clear picture of what the event was

about) was very insightful and agreed completely. If he can help by

using his celebrity, more power to him and to you for having the

open-mindedness to see though the BS and address it so well.

Marty, the big one

Re: What would you do?

Ginny, Marty, and The List

Do me a favor, keep it under you hat, respond to the person, rather

than

the List, so as not to clog it up with personal banter that I hate going

through to delete for a half hour. Keep this to yourselves, please.

Religion

is a personal choice, and I don't blast what anyone wants to believe in,

hey

Elvis is a belief to allot of people out there, to each their own. So

keep

theology, religion to yourselves, and leave the list alone please.

Bashing

one another is stupid, over a belief is even dumber, after all, we are

dwarfs and we all have a common bond. So let's stay focused to real

issues

that involve us, OK.

Rob Tille

What would you do?

Ginny

You said

" Depending on where you are (the part of the country) this can be very

common and acceptable. "

I feel, please understand that this is my point of view, that spreading

a view of faith over fact as completely unacceptable any place or

anytime. This is reason that in my home state of Kansas; I'm ashamed to

say, they teach creationism as equal, equal mind you, to evolution. This

fact makes me absolutely embarrassed.

You said

" I akin it to someone coming up to you and saying....hey did you see

such and such movie? Well it changed my life! Well...isn't that

nice..? "

I think we all accept a movie, even one representing historical facts,

as fictional since it is filter through one persons point of view. So

that analogy doesn't in any way apply and no, it's not nice.

You said

" Some denominations and groups are on missions to bring people into the

fold, not that it is necessarily wrong? " (their motives are pure) "

Yes, that is wrong even if their motives are pure since they are

spreading, again in my opinion, nonsense. If were right I would agree.

You fail to take into account that I might be right as well. I don't

force my very strong personal beliefs here because it's the wrong forum

for that interchange or for proselytizing the dumbing down of our youth

by ignoring hard physical science which could be considered the very

starting point in a search for a creator.

You said

" I know I sounded rather preachy and apologize in advance. "

Yes, you did.

Marty, the tall one.

>Hi!

>

>In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People

>coming up to me and inviting me to their church.

>

>The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and

>was headed toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi

>and I said Hi back to him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to

>you. He walks over to his car and tells me to get in. I said there

>is 'no way' I'm getting in that car with you, do I look that stupid.

>Then he say do you know where " such & such " church is in the

>city...I said no I don't I m not from this city...then I turned and

>walked into Mcs.

>

>The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having

>lunch. I noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You

>can always tell when they are watching you or at least I can. The

>guy he was eating with left to pay the check. He gets up walks over

>to my table. Hi what's your name? I say why you want to know for.

>He says I want to invite you to a church downtown. It is " such &

>such church " . I'll give you the number. He writes it down & walks

>away.

>

>I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I

>want to go to Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their

>church on me.

>

>And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I

>had gotten in his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

>

>Thanks for your time

>

I appreciate your unrest.

I am a lay leader in my United Methodist Church and what I think is

happening is called " evangelizing " . Depending on where you are (the

part of the country) this can be very common and acceptable. But,

you know in a world like this is, people feel defensive and

frightened when they are approached without prior knowledge of the

persons motive.

People who (ok, I am going to get blunt here, but mean no offence)

are " on fire " and want to share their faith can often do so with

abandon. Most of the time this tactic does NOT work. It takes a

minimum of 3 encounters of a positive experience (like invites from

friends whom you trust and earn your attention) for someone to take

evangelizing seriously. Not that cold contacts, like you experience,

don't work, but, not usually.

Approach is everything and when someone feels vulnerable and now

threatened (like your first incident) the whole attempt is in vain.

These people mean well, but here in the North East this kind of

attempt is not very welcomed, nor is it effective.

To tell someone about how YOU feel about YOUR faith has to have some

grounding in some commonality and to establish that you at least need

to have more than a two sentence conversation.

I akin it to someone coming up to you and saying....hey did you see

such and such movie? Well it changed my life! Well...isn't that

nice and what does it have to do with me?

Some denominations and groups are on missions to bring people into

the fold, not that it is necessarily wrong (their motives are pure)

but their methods are something to be desired. Problem is how do you

know who is " pure " and who is not?

The second guy got it better, but should have introduced himself and

left the information. It was obvious him mulling over the approach.

But, if you are going to " hit and run " (so to speak) than do it, and

if God leads an individual to a church, than fine.

The approaches on both cases could have been handled better, and

believe me they very often are. Even as a seasoned Christian (who is

not afraid to talk of God, the Holy Spirit or Jesus) I still know

when say something and when to keep my mouth shut. Truth be told I

give the " power " to the one who really had the ability to change or

move a heart. So, even as a vehicle to share my faith, I know when I

am being moved, when I would be effective and when I have been called

to do such. As Christians, people are called to bring people to the

faith, but we also need to remember we are addressing fellow humans

who are fragile, suspicions, and leery of strangers. We need to take

in the human condition. People who act like plows don't. They are

focused perhaps on God's mission, but sometimes loose sight of God's

children and their concerns and fears.

I know I sounded rather preachy and apologize in advance.

--

*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*

This is a Day of New Beginnings!

Ginny Sargent, Decorative Artist-Designer

Sand Dollar Bay Designs

Lowell, Massachusetts

chriss@...

Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece!

" Art is a collaboration between God and the artist,

and the less the artist does the better. " Andre Gide

[Guest guest]

Ginny, Marty, and The List

Do me a favor, keep it under you hat, respond to the person, rather than

the List, so as not to clog it up with personal banter that I hate going

through to delete for a half hour. Keep this to yourselves, please. Religion

is a personal choice, and I don't blast what anyone wants to believe in, hey

Elvis is a belief to allot of people out there, to each their own. So keep

theology, religion to yourselves, and leave the list alone please. Bashing

one another is stupid, over a belief is even dumber, after all, we are

dwarfs and we all have a common bond. So let's stay focused to real issues

that involve us, OK.

Rob Tille

What would you do?

Ginny

You said

" Depending on where you are (the part of the country) this can be very

common and acceptable. "

I feel, please understand that this is my point of view, that spreading

a view of faith over fact as completely unacceptable any place or

anytime. This is reason that in my home state of Kansas; I'm ashamed to

say, they teach creationism as equal, equal mind you, to evolution. This

fact makes me absolutely embarrassed.

You said

" I akin it to someone coming up to you and saying....hey did you see

such and such movie? Well it changed my life! Well...isn't that

nice..? "

I think we all accept a movie, even one representing historical facts,

as fictional since it is filter through one persons point of view. So

that analogy doesn't in any way apply and no, it's not nice.

You said

" Some denominations and groups are on missions to bring people into the

fold, not that it is necessarily wrong? " (their motives are pure) "

Yes, that is wrong even if their motives are pure since they are

spreading, again in my opinion, nonsense. If were right I would agree.

You fail to take into account that I might be right as well. I don't

force my very strong personal beliefs here because it's the wrong forum

for that interchange or for proselytizing the dumbing down of our youth

by ignoring hard physical science which could be considered the very

starting point in a search for a creator.

You said

" I know I sounded rather preachy and apologize in advance. "

Yes, you did.

Marty, the tall one.

>Hi!

>

>In the last 3 months I ve had this happened to me twice. People

>coming up to me and inviting me to their church.

>

>The first time I was at Mcs. I just got out of my truck and

>was headed toward the door. This guy come out the door and says Hi

>and I said Hi back to him. He says wait a minute I want to talk to

>you. He walks over to his car and tells me to get in. I said there

>is 'no way' I'm getting in that car with you, do I look that stupid.

>Then he say do you know where " such & such " church is in the

>city...I said no I don't I m not from this city...then I turned and

>walked into Mcs.

>

>The second time I was at the Cracker Barrel in the same city having

>lunch. I noticed this guy across the asle kept watching me. You

>can always tell when they are watching you or at least I can. The

>guy he was eating with left to pay the check. He gets up walks over

>to my table. Hi what's your name? I say why you want to know for.

>He says I want to invite you to a church downtown. It is " such &

>such church " . I'll give you the number. He writes it down & walks

>away.

>

>I don't know how you feel about this. But I don't like it. If I

>want to go to Church I'll go. But they don't need o push their

>church on me.

>

>And in the first case who know what that guy would have done if I

>had gotten in his car. This world is full of Wacko's.

>

>Thanks for your time

>

I appreciate your unrest.

I am a lay leader in my United Methodist Church and what I think is

happening is called " evangelizing " . Depending on where you are (the

part of the country) this can be very common and acceptable. But,

you know in a world like this is, people feel defensive and

frightened when they are approached without prior knowledge of the

persons motive.

People who (ok, I am going to get blunt here, but mean no offence)

are " on fire " and want to share their faith can often do so with

abandon. Most of the time this tactic does NOT work. It takes a

minimum of 3 encounters of a positive experience (like invites from

friends whom you trust and earn your attention) for someone to take

evangelizing seriously. Not that cold contacts, like you experience,

don't work, but, not usually.

Approach is everything and when someone feels vulnerable and now

threatened (like your first incident) the whole attempt is in vain.

These people mean well, but here in the North East this kind of

attempt is not very welcomed, nor is it effective.

To tell someone about how YOU feel about YOUR faith has to have some

grounding in some commonality and to establish that you at least need

to have more than a two sentence conversation.

I akin it to someone coming up to you and saying....hey did you see

such and such movie? Well it changed my life! Well...isn't that

nice and what does it have to do with me?

Some denominations and groups are on missions to bring people into

the fold, not that it is necessarily wrong (their motives are pure)

but their methods are something to be desired. Problem is how do you

know who is " pure " and who is not?

The second guy got it better, but should have introduced himself and

left the information. It was obvious him mulling over the approach.

But, if you are going to " hit and run " (so to speak) than do it, and

if God leads an individual to a church, than fine.

The approaches on both cases could have been handled better, and

believe me they very often are. Even as a seasoned Christian (who is

not afraid to talk of God, the Holy Spirit or Jesus) I still know

when say something and when to keep my mouth shut. Truth be told I

give the " power " to the one who really had the ability to change or

move a heart. So, even as a vehicle to share my faith, I know when I

am being moved, when I would be effective and when I have been called

to do such. As Christians, people are called to bring people to the

faith, but we also need to remember we are addressing fellow humans

who are fragile, suspicions, and leery of strangers. We need to take

in the human condition. People who act like plows don't. They are

focused perhaps on God's mission, but sometimes loose sight of God's

children and their concerns and fears.

I know I sounded rather preachy and apologize in advance.

--

*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*~~~~~*

This is a Day of New Beginnings!

Ginny Sargent, Decorative Artist-Designer

Sand Dollar Bay Designs

Lowell, Massachusetts

chriss@...

Live one day at a time and make it a masterpiece!

" Art is a collaboration between God and the artist,

and the less the artist does the better. " Andre Gide

[Guest guest]

,

This is my third post so I can't post any more today.

Do you not think that the Christian posts offend all non Christians

every time they show up here? Why would I owe any one an apology for

stating that that such a post offends me? I was offended, period. I

would assume that’s why there is a rule that we not make purely

political or religious posts and it's why I won't go into my own

thoughts on the matter rather than merely responding in a neutral way. I

see by your post we certainly have a strong common ground for an

understanding but this is not the place.

Marty

> Re: What would you do?

>

> > anytime. This is reason that in my home state of

> Kansas; I’m ashamed to

> > say, they teach creationism as equal, equal mind you,

> to evolution. This

>

> I don't think this is anything to be ashamed of. They

> teach evolution and it doesn't bother me. Let the

> children hear both sides and decide for themselves. As

> for me, I somehow believe in both. I believe we evolved

> from apes but God had his hand in it.

>

> > Yes, that is wrong even if their motives are pure

> since they are

> > spreading, again in my opinion, nonsense. If were

> right I would agree.

>

> And who are you to say it isn't right and you are. I

> found this remark to be insulting to all Christians.

> Just cause I don't believe what Catholics believe I am

> not saying Catholics are wrong or calling them

> nonsensical.

>

> You can disagree but please don't insult those who

> happen to believe differant than you or their beliefs.

> I happen to think Ginny said it quite well without

> sounding preachy and I also think you owe both her and

> all Christians on here an apology for calling our

> beliefs nonsense just because you happen to not share

> our beliefs.

>

> It is posts such as yours that cause discussions on

> religion to be banned from this list in the first place.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --

> D. Connors

> Not Home Alone Petsitting

> Lee, NH

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> anytime. This is reason that in my home state of

Kansas; I’m ashamed to

> say, they teach creationism as equal, equal mind you,

to evolution. This

I don't think this is anything to be ashamed of. They

teach evolution and it doesn't bother me. Let the

children hear both sides and decide for themselves. As

for me, I somehow believe in both. I believe we evolved

from apes but God had his hand in it.

> Yes, that is wrong even if their motives are pure

since they are

> spreading, again in my opinion, nonsense. If were

right I would agree.

And who are you to say it isn't right and you are. I

found this remark to be insulting to all Christians.

Just cause I don't believe what Catholics believe I am

not saying Catholics are wrong or calling them

nonsensical.

You can disagree but please don't insult those who

happen to believe differant than you or their beliefs.

I happen to think Ginny said it quite well without

sounding preachy and I also think you owe both her and

all Christians on here an apology for calling our

beliefs nonsense just because you happen to not share

our beliefs.

It is posts such as yours that cause discussions on

religion to be banned from this list in the first place.

--

D. Connors

Not Home Alone Petsitting

Lee, NH

[Guest guest]

The difference is Ginny wasn't deliberately insulting

you by calling your beliefs nonsense. You did however

insult her and all Christians by calling our beliefs

nonsense.

--

D. Connors

Not Home Alone Petsitting

Lee, NH

> ,

>

> This is my third post so I can't post any more today.

>

> Do you not think that the Christian posts offend all non Christians

> every time they show up here? Why would I owe any one an apology for

> stating that that such a post offends me? I was offended, period. I

> would assume that’s why there is a rule that we not make purely

> political or religious posts and it's why I won't go into my own

> thoughts on the matter rather than merely responding in a neutral way. I

> see by your post we certainly have a strong common ground for an

> understanding but this is not the place.

>

> Marty

>

> > Re: What would you do?

> >

> > > anytime. This is reason that in my home state of

> > Kansas; I’m ashamed to

> > > say, they teach creationism as equal, equal mind you,

> > to evolution. This

> >

> > I don't think this is anything to be ashamed of. They

> > teach evolution and it doesn't bother me. Let the

> > children hear both sides and decide for themselves. As

> > for me, I somehow believe in both. I believe we evolved

> > from apes but God had his hand in it.

> >

> > > Yes, that is wrong even if their motives are pure

> > since they are

> > > spreading, again in my opinion, nonsense. If were

> > right I would agree.

> >

> > And who are you to say it isn't right and you are. I

> > found this remark to be insulting to all Christians.

> > Just cause I don't believe what Catholics believe I am

> > not saying Catholics are wrong or calling them

> > nonsensical.

> >

> > You can disagree but please don't insult those who

> > happen to believe differant than you or their beliefs.

> > I happen to think Ginny said it quite well without

> > sounding preachy and I also think you owe both her and

> > all Christians on here an apology for calling our

> > beliefs nonsense just because you happen to not share

> > our beliefs.

> >

> > It is posts such as yours that cause discussions on

> > religion to be banned from this list in the first place.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > D. Connors

> > Not Home Alone Petsitting

> > Lee, NH

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Marty Hiebert wrote:

> Do you not think that the Christian posts offend all non Christians

> every time they show up here?

Bless me father, for I have sinned.... I have a confession!

Ginny Sargent is moderated (and I don't remember moderating her so I

believe its simply because she resubscribed at some point recently). Which

means that in order for her post about Christian recruiting to appear on

the list, I would have had to approve it. Ergo, yes, I approved it. That

is my confession.

Why? Well, I did consciously consider the fact that it was fairly

religious post, and that religious posts are against guidelines. But the

topic got started based on someone being approached and offered prayers to

" heal " their dwarfism, which I thought was an interesting and pertinent

experience.

Perhaps my judgement was off, but I thought Ginny made some good points.

As a non-Christian I was not offended by her post. She assessed the

situation realistically, and openly criticized overzealous Christians. She

alludes to the issue of how dwarfs, who arguably feel more vulnerable than

the average person to a stranger's approach, are ironically more likely to

attract evangelizers and other strangers. As a person who has historically

been squarely in your camp, Marty, I nevertheless wish more Christians

were as sensitive and insightful as Ginny!

I will accept part of the blame for approving a post that was in a dark

gray area as far as guidelines. But in reality Marty, this didn't become

an issue until your provocative post. Tolerance works both ways.

Dave

[Guest guest]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the guidelines say that the ban

applies to purely religious posts with *no* relation to dwarfism.

Thus, Ginny's original post did *not* violate the guidelines.

Dan

>On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Marty Hiebert wrote:

>

>> Do you not think that the Christian posts offend all non Christians

>> every time they show up here?

>

>Bless me father, for I have sinned.... I have a confession!

>

>Ginny Sargent is moderated (and I don't remember moderating her so I

>believe its simply because she resubscribed at some point recently). Which

>means that in order for her post about Christian recruiting to appear on

>the list, I would have had to approve it. Ergo, yes, I approved it. That

>is my confession.

>

>Why? Well, I did consciously consider the fact that it was fairly

>religious post, and that religious posts are against guidelines. But the

>topic got started based on someone being approached and offered prayers to

> " heal " their dwarfism, which I thought was an interesting and pertinent

>experience.

>

>Perhaps my judgement was off, but I thought Ginny made some good points.

>As a non-Christian I was not offended by her post. She assessed the

>situation realistically, and openly criticized overzealous Christians. She

>alludes to the issue of how dwarfs, who arguably feel more vulnerable than

>the average person to a stranger's approach, are ironically more likely to

>attract evangelizers and other strangers. As a person who has historically

>been squarely in your camp, Marty, I nevertheless wish more Christians

>were as sensitive and insightful as Ginny!

>

>I will accept part of the blame for approving a post that was in a dark

>gray area as far as guidelines. But in reality Marty, this didn't become

>an issue until your provocative post. Tolerance works both ways.

>

>Dave

>

>

>

>===

>

[Guest guest]

> DO I start over & find yet another Dr? I mean geeze,

this can't look very good, for me to hop from Dr to Dr? <

I always worry about " doc hopping " ...almost like jumping from doc to doc to find

one who will agree with me. But like I have heard before...we are in charge of

our bodies and our health care. If you feel something is wrong, you are entitled

to a second opinion.