Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

February 17, 2010

Hi Roxanna. I'm the one who started this thread, and my title was not meant to convey any "attitude". My son was only diagnosed last week, so the complex labrynth of issues and treatments and perspectives in AS is still very, very new to my husband and I. So new in fact, that I have not even had time to formulate any opinions one way or the other. I started this thread to gain perspectives from other parents, so thank you for yours.

We are doing our best to navigate what will be best for our son, but in my preliminary research on Aspergers I came across many articles written by adults with AS who seemed to have a unique and worthwhile insight into AS, and took the position that their way of "being" is legitimate. Many seemed to feel that some of their experiences with socialization training were very detrimental to them and their sense of self, and as a parent I don't want to immediately dismiss those concerns. Instead, I'd like to learn more about them.

The individuals I was reading about were certainly not whining or complaining. They were sharing their experiences in what I felt was a legitimate, respectful, eloquent manner. Otherwise I would likely not have lent them any credence.

I understand your points regarding fitting in and functioning in society. I think as parents this is a huge issue for us. And I agree that every child is unique and what makes sense in terms of 'training' for one, may not for another. In our case, our son's AS is so mild in many ways, that making him 'fit in' any more than he already does makes me worry - legitimately - that we will be asking him to be someone he is not. But I may find, as we move forward, that socialization training works well for him. Only time will tell.

In the meantime, I appreciate the diversity of opinions that have been shared here.

Thanks,CaitlinEmbracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> >> > > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> > > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not> > just the disorder...> > > > Caitlin> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>> >> > > > > > > > =>

February 17, 2010

I think I see both points of view here.

I agree in that " fitting in " to be polite,

respectful, kind and independent are necessary skills to learn.

I gave some example previously in this thread of how my AS daughter does not

appropriately adapt to societies rules on social

behavior.

But if the parents here mean " fitting in " to be adapting

to a groups values on social status items(teens wanting

to buy some designer clothes or purchases of expensive

electronic devices, or following some trend), that may be asking our kids way

too much.

Our kids may not " fit into " the popular groups at school.

Perhaps this is what the parents were implying.

I know my daughter does not feel she even fits in at the

special needs school she attends. She has such

trouble connecting whereever she is.

I wish there was a place to retreat to where these

problems would go away. I did the best I could getting

my daughter into a very sensitive and kind school

(population 65 kids) and the problems still follow

us to some extent. It's better but not as much as I hoped.

It is a struggle for us for sure and our kids of course.

Pam

> >

> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >

> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not

> > just the disorder...

> >

> > Caitlin

> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> >

>

> =

>

February 17, 2010

" these are not people who can't learn. They just chose not to. " do you

personally know all these people? Every person's situation is different. Access

to services is different everywhere. . .and it was nearly non-existent 15-20

years ago. You may want to think twice before being so judgemental. 20 years

from now it could be your child that that is said about from someone who doesn't

know your childs history. Food for thought.

On Wed Feb 17th, 2010 11:09 PM EST Caitlin wrote:

>

>Hi Roxanna. I'm the one who started this thread, and my title was not

>meant to convey any " attitude " . My son was only diagnosed last week, so

>the complex labrynth of issues and treatments and perspectives in AS is

>still very, very new to my husband and I. So new in fact, that I have

>not even had time to formulate any opinions one way or the other. I

>started this thread to gain perspectives from other parents, so thank

>you for yours.

>

>We are doing our best to navigate what will be best for our son, but in

>my preliminary research on Aspergers I came across many articles written

>by adults with AS who seemed to have a unique and worthwhile insight

>into AS, and took the position that their way of " being " is legitimate.

>Many seemed to feel that some of their experiences with socialization

>training were very detrimental to them and their sense of self, and as a

>parent I don't want to immediately dismiss those concerns. Instead, I'd

>like to learn more about them.

>

>The individuals I was reading about were certainly not whining or

>complaining. They were sharing their experiences in what I felt was a

>legitimate, respectful, eloquent manner. Otherwise I would likely not

>have lent them any credence.

>

>I understand your points regarding fitting in and functioning in

>society. I think as parents this is a huge issue for us. And I agree

>that every child is unique and what makes sense in terms of 'training'

>for one, may not for another. In our case, our son's AS is so mild in

>many ways, that making him 'fit in' any more than he already does makes

>me worry - legitimately - that we will be asking him to be someone he is

>not. But I may find, as we move forward, that socialization training

>works well for him. Only time will tell.

>

>In the meantime, I appreciate the diversity of opinions that have been

>shared here.

>

>Thanks,

>Caitlin

>Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

><http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

>

>> >

>> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

>> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

>many

>> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

>the

>> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

>will

>> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

>that

>> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

>> >

>> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

>far do

>> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

>not

>> > just the disorder...

>> >

>> > Caitlin

>> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

>www.welcome-to-normal.com

>> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

>> >

>>

>> =

>>

>

February 18, 2010

Hi, Caitlin -

My son has mild Asperger's, too. In some situations, he could appear to "fit in", but those are pretty rare, especially at the age of 13. He has an awareness about things and about himself though that we have taught him through the years. If we hadn't of brought obvious social lessons to his attention, he may never of acquired the foundation of the skill.

Here is an example. When he was younger, D would walk up to me and start telling me something when I was in the middle of doing something, and he'd start in the middle of a story so I would have no context. About 3 years ago, I started turning around and teaching him a few things about reciprocal communication right as he walked up to me, like it's good to make eye contact or look for signs that someone is interested in talking with you before you just start in with your topic. We also talked about how, if you want to tell a story, you need to share a little bit of context because if you just start in the middle, you might lose your audience. Over and over again, I would stop him up front and we would walk through the appropriate way of communicating. He is SO MUCH BETTER about this now. Is he perfect? No. Does he still have trouble with reciprocal

communication? Yes, but not as challenging as it used to be. He's probably on target about 60% of the time now (is used to be closer to zero percent, no joke!)

I hope my example explains my point. I don't consider what I did teaching him to be someone he's not, but instead, teaching him social skills that will help him build relationships in the future. If I had never intervened, I don't think he would've ever picked these things up on his own. He has to be taught what social cues are and how to interpret them. As his mom, I would be doing him a huge disservice by not helping him acquire better social skills.

"Over-optimism is waiting for you ship to come in when you haven't sent one out."

From: Caitlin <caitlinwray@...> Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 10:09:21 PMSubject: ( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Hi Roxanna. I'm the one who started this thread, and my title was not meant to convey any "attitude". My son was only diagnosed last week, so the complex labrynth of issues and treatments and perspectives in AS is still very, very new to my husband and I. So new in fact, that I have not even had time to formulate any opinions one way or the other. I started this thread to gain perspectives from other parents, so thank you for yours.

We are doing our best to navigate what will be best for our son, but in my preliminary research on Aspergers I came across many articles written by adults with AS who seemed to have a unique and worthwhile insight into AS, and took the position that their way of "being" is legitimate. Many seemed to feel that some of their experiences with socialization training were very detrimental to them and their sense of self, and as a parent I don't want to immediately dismiss those concerns. Instead, I'd like to learn more about them.

The individuals I was reading about were certainly not whining or complaining. They were sharing their experiences in what I felt was a legitimate, respectful, eloquent manner. Otherwise I would likely not have lent them any credence.

I understand your points regarding fitting in and functioning in society. I think as parents this is a huge issue for us. And I agree that every child is unique and what makes sense in terms of 'training' for one, may not for another. In our case, our son's AS is so mild in many ways, that making him 'fit in' any more than he already does makes me worry - legitimately - that we will be asking him to be someone he is not. But I may find, as we move forward, that socialization training works well for him. Only time will tell.

In the meantime, I appreciate the diversity of opinions that have been shared here.

Thanks,CaitlinEmbracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com

> >> > > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that> > training them to fit in is the

best thing for them in the long run?> > > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not> > just the disorder...> > > > Caitlin> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com> > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>> >> > > > > > > > =>

February 18, 2010

Caitlin,

I am the only one who replied that also got an email like this for my trouble. I can only guess that your "research" is not about learning as much as confirming what you already think. I have been around a while and have seen that the people who are busy "embracing their child's autism" or on this "acceptance" track to be the same ones in later years, upset because their kid can't get a job, drive a car, remember to shower, has no friends, etc. I am a big fan of not waiting around and leaving things like severe neurological impairments to chance, hope or acceptance (in this sense of the word.) It makes me different in how I view things.

Anyway, I think it is important to consider the consequences - the flip side. If it were really research, wouldn't you want to know how that POV is working for them? And as well, coming to one conclusion does not mean it's the right conclusion. In research, it is not always easy to make a relationship between one specific cause and effect, especially where people are concerned and especially true for people with autism. For instance, my oldest ds once got sick after eating a hot dog that had been cooked on a grill. For about 10 to 12 YEARS after this event, he refused to eat anything cooked on the grill. He had decided that the grilled hot dog caused his illness instead of realizing that we all just got the flu. So even if these writings you are interested in are "eloquent", it does not mean that having social skill training or being taught how to "fit in" was the reason they are bitter today or feel put out by having to learn the rules of the world or whatever else is being said. They might have had a bad program, bad teacher, poor psychologist, pack mentality, did poorly at it and therefore hated it, etc. Before you write to tell me that I am wrong in critiquing what was said or they didn't say this, they said that etc., please understand I am not looking at each individual post, rant, writing, whatever. I am talking in general terms. I've seen their writing, websites, nations, etc.

Some people like this whole Aspie-world-unto-itself concept and enjoy reading these sort of messages. I just don't happen to find it as great and I disagree with a lot of the messages because they make no sense to me. And even if you enjoy that, I am not sure you can generalize some of these aspects. Long discussion we could have there but I don't think it matters, discussion not being the point to this. But in any form, I feel It's ok to think about it differently. I usually don't speak up anymore unless, like yesterday, I read a dozen emails all with the same message and I feel it is important to put another POV out there to consider. You don't have to consider it or discuss it and I'm ok with that too.

I did not reply to your specific post at all. You may start threads on here but it doesn't mean by the time I read through a dozen posts - almost all agreeing with you, btw - that I might not have a different opinion and wish to share it. It may not have anything to do with your original post by that time or it might, as in this case, just be adding to the discussion that you started, which is what happens on a discussion list. I could not have said who started the thread after I read through them all either until this post of yours went through so it was not at all a personal reply to your specific email.

I also did not say your concerns were not legit. I just added a POV that was different from the rest. I also did not say you had an attitude at all. I said there was an attitude (after reading a dozen posts all pretty much with the same tone) and it was not attitude as in "you've got an attitude problem" but instead it was "attitude" as in "general tone." I will have to re-read what I wrote and figure out how you made that assumption because I must have just used the wrong words to try to express what I meant, perhaps.

But again, my thoughts were not directed at any one person but at a general tone of the discussion I had read so far. You could say, by post 11, that I was choking on all that acceptance, lol. Acceptance is nice, don't get me wrong. There is also a place for it. But I think there are things we teach our kids (AS/HFA or not) that are not always warm and fuzzy and happy things. Ultimately, it is our responsibility to get them prepared for adulthood. Part of that is teaching the skills that a lot of people were putting down in the posts as if teaching these skills meant you did not accept your child for who they are. If you choose not to teach your kid these kinds of skills, that is your choice, as it is for anyone here. I don't see harm in hearing another POV before making that decision but even if you don't consider what I said, others will/might.

Also, there was a tone in most of the emails of this "either/or" POV where I do not feel this is an either/or topic at all, which I went on to explain in my last email. There was a post from someone about how they advocated for "Acceptance" for their child for a long time pre-dx, then they had an evaluation and got a dx of AS and suddenly went on to want to "fix" the problem. Actually, the post said something like, "The doctor said it was good news and that you can fix this." (Personally, what kind of quack would say such a thing? And it's not true that you "fix" autism or AS, so I don't know why a professional would say such a thing, but that's another post entirely...) This was confusing to my mind and used as an example of how we need to accept and not "fix." I don't see that this is an all or nothing kind of situation as this person has. And I also would have come to a different conclusion when considering the situation had it been mine. For instance, before the dx, you did not know what was going on or how to help your child. After the dx, you had a direction and started going that way. To me, it makes perfect sense to want to help your child learn the skills that they need. So I don't view that as a negative or as a proof that a person somehow "doesn't accept" who their child is. Again, it's not "all or nothing" to me. I don't think looking at it from a different side is going to really hurt anyone here. If a person still wants to cling to an idea that it's "all acceptance" , then they will and can do that.

As for your "research", we obviously see the situation differently. What you consider "eloquent" is "whining" to me. I guess that is why you read that sort of thing and I prefer not to. To each his/her own and that is what might have made this conversation more interesting, IMO. Consider me a different color in the rainbow of life, if it helps. If your child is "mild", then that's good news for you. But also consider that 90% of the people who come to this list say that their kid is "mild" AS. (Maybe we should have a poll on that sometime, interesting...) But anyway, not all of those "mild" AS kids grow up and do well. Some really have a severe disability that prevents them from obtaining future employment and independent living. So I think it's important to provide the training and build the skills as early as one can do so.

I personally think it's great to discuss this concern, or any concern we parents have, but I don't think this is a "discussion" if everyone just agrees and nobody considers another POV. I happen to have another POV in this particular area so I added it. I can try to "conform" and go with the general consensus but somehow I doubt I will be very good at that. lol. I never have. lol.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Hi Roxanna. I'm the one who started this thread, and my title was not meant to convey any "attitude". My son was only diagnosed last week, so the complex labrynth of issues and treatments and perspectives in AS is still very, very new to my husband and I. So new in fact, that I have not even had time to formulate any opinions one way or the other. I started this thread to gain perspectives from other parents, so thank you for yours.

We are doing our best to navigate what will be best for our son, but in my preliminary research on Aspergers I came across many articles written by adults with AS who seemed to have a unique and worthwhile insight into AS, and took the position that their way of "being" is legitimate. Many seemed to feel that some of their experiences with socialization training were very detrimental to them and their sense of self, and as a parent I don't want to immediately dismiss those concerns. Instead, I'd like to learn more about them.

The individuals I was reading about were certainly not whining or complaining. They were sharing their experiences in what I felt was a legitimate, respectful, eloquent manner. Otherwise I would likely not have lent them any credence.

I understand your points regarding fitting in and functioning in society. I think as parents this is a huge issue for us. And I agree that every child is unique and what makes sense in terms of 'training' for one, may not for another. In our case, our son's AS is so mild in many ways, that making him 'fit in' any more than he already does makes me worry - legitimately - that we will be asking him to be someone he is not. But I may find, as we move forward, that socialization training works well for him. Only time will tell.

In the meantime, I appreciate the diversity of opinions that have been shared here.

Thanks,

Caitlin

Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> >

> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >

> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individ

ual and not

> > just the disorder...

> >

> > Caitlin

> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> >

>

> =

>

February 18, 2010

I think most of the replies to this thread were exactly what Pamela stated. I don't believe that any of us would NOT want our kids to "fit" better with others.

It was, for me, anyway, a point of saying, "Ian,,,,you're okay the way you are". Plain and simple.

He knows to say "hi",,,,,and is quite social, actually. Just in an "odd" way. he he. So, he still doesn't "fit" even though he knows what to say.........

I, personally, am just done with taking him places that work with him on how to be "like everyone else". Places that will teach him to fit.

Darnit....he doesn't fit too well,,,,,but I found myself as the one who that bothered more than him....if that makes sense. I was the one worrying that he seemed "odd". He didn't care, for the most part. He likes who he was.

And,,,,now,,,,I'm okay with it too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on seeing that we do all have to "fit" into society. And he will. One way or the other. He deals with people and and as he ages,,,,,,,,he learns cues.........but ya know what? Depending on the degree of AS, they're still gonna have it. Some of us, depending on the degree of our kid, will choose to attend therapies and groups and continue to help their kids in that way. Others, like myself, won't.

Again,,,that doesn't mean that I don't think he NEEDS to continue to learn ways to "act" and "be" as a "someday adult",,,,,I have just stopped actively forcing it.

Seems like for us,,,,that the more pressure I put on him (and us as a family,,,,the worse it got.

The minute I stopped, due to his emotional place...and our families',,,,,,,it took the pressure away and we all just accepted it all. We sighed,,,,took a deep breath.......and stopped,,,,if that makes sense.

I'm not saying that we don't work on things,,,,or talk about life and how to react socially. We do. And with him being 13,,,,holy cow.......we are suddenly into a whole new social "thing".

But,,,,,it's done by us,,,,,his family,,,,,our friends,,,,,,his few teachers at school...........that's his training. And....for us,,,,,,it's working really well.

It really is simple. Just treat others kindly and with respect.

Robin

From: Pamela <susanonderko@...>Subject: ( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 10:32 PM

I think I see both points of view here. I agree in that "fitting in" to be polite,respectful, kind and independent are necessary skills to learn. I gave some example previously in this thread of how my AS daughter does not appropriately adapt to societies rules on social behavior. But if the parents here mean "fitting in" to be adapting to a groups values on social status items(teens wantingto buy some designer clothes or purchases of expensiveelectronic devices, or following some trend), that may be asking our kids way too much.Our kids may not "fit into" the popular groups at school. Perhaps this is what the parents were implying. I know my daughter does not feel she even fits in at the special needs school she attends. She has such trouble connecting whereever she is. I wish there was a place to retreat to where theseproblems would go away. I did the best I could

gettingmy daughter into a very sensitive and kind school (population 65 kids) and the problems still followus to some extent. It's better but not as much as I hoped.It is a struggle for us for sure and our kids of course. Pam > >> > > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> > > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do> > you go with treatments before you

start erasing the individual and not> > just the disorder...> > > > Caitlin> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com> > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>> >> > > > > > > > =>

February 18, 2010

Try to chill a bit, Doreen. People with AS can learn - most definitely. If they are choosing not to do so either because they don't feel it is necessary (having AS is a good thing, for example, and one does not need to change anything about having AS, i.e. AS is "who" they are really) or their parents have decided to accept them "for who they are" (again, an AS person vs. a person who also has AS) and not advocate for therapies that will teach them social skills because it will "change who they are" yadda yadda yadda, then I absolutely would repeat what I said in my email again. I might even underline some more words for emphasis. That is the type of people I was referring to as were all of you. No, I do not know "everyone" in the whole world, you got me there. But neither do you. I still can form an opinion and participate in this discussion about a tenor within a specific group of people based on my observations and experiences just as you have done. You will embrace acceptance for people you don't know and advocate for not teaching social skills because it smacks of "conforming"? And yet, you don't know all these people in the world either. You formed an opinion one way and I formed an opinion the other.

As for people judging my kid in 20 years, my ds is already 21 yo (hfa) so I don't have to wait for him to grow up to see the pitfalls to raising a person with hfa. 20 years ago they did not have social skill classes, as you point out, and I agree. I do not know what your point is in saying that. If anything, that would be MY point because I am advocating FOR more services, sooner and an approach that provides teaching the skills one needs to live independently as an adult. And yes, these kinds of people who write these things really do tend to back up my position, I have always felt. Looks like you see it that way too. So now I am just confused as what the problem you have with my post is about...

You don't have to agree with my POV, but I have a right to have it without being put down for doing so. And for the record, my ds won't be on the internet complaining about having to take social skill classes because A) he does not identify himself as an autistic person, he has a real name and identity outside of having autism. He has an actual disability and does not think it's a wonderful thing. It's just a factoid and a part of the whole. He is where he is by his hard work, we don't give credit to a disability for his accomplishments or his personality and I am proud of him as he is (how's that for acceptance where I feel more comfortable putting it!) I don't really worry that I will have any big problem in 20 years advocating the same way I am now. If I see something to change my mind along the way, I will be sure to mention it. But you can almost guarantee that it will be something I think about from all sides before I conform to what is popular and easy.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

Re: ( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

"these are not people who can't learn. They just chose not to." do you personally know all these people? Every person's situation is different. Access to services is different everywhere. . .and it was nearly non-existent 15-20 years ago. You may want to think twice before being so judgemental. 20 years from now it could be your child that that is said about from someone who doesn't know your childs history. Food for thought.

On Wed Feb 17th, 2010 11:09 PM EST Caitlin wrote:

>

>Hi Roxanna. I'm the one who started this thread, and my title was not

>meant to convey any "attitude". My son was only diagnosed last week, so

>the complex labrynth of issues and treatments and perspectives in AS is

>still very, very new to my husband and I. So new in fact, that I have

>not even had time to formulate any opinions one way or the other. I

>started this thread to gain perspectives from other parents, so thank

>you for yours.

>

>We are doing our best to navigate what will be best for our son, but in

>my preliminary research on Aspergers I came across many articles written

>by adults with AS who seemed to have a unique and worthwhile insight

>into AS, and took the position that their way of "being" is legitimate.

>Many seemed to feel that some of their experiences with socialization

>training were very detrimental to them and their sense of self, and as a

>parent I don't want to immediately dismiss those concerns. Instead, I'd

>like to learn more about them.

>

>The individuals I was reading about were certainly not whining or

>complaining. They were sharing their experiences in what I felt was a

>legitimate, respectful, eloquent manner. Otherwise I would likely not

>have lent them any credence.

>

>I understand your points regarding fitting in and functioning in

>society. I think as parents this is a huge issue for us. And I agree

>that every child is unique and what makes sense in terms of 'training'

>for one, may not for another. In our case, our son's AS is so mild in

>many ways, that making him 'fit in' any more than he already does makes

>me worry - legitimately - that we will be asking him to be someone he is

>not. But I may find, as we move forward, that socialization training

>works well for him. Only time will tell.

>

>In the meantime, I appreciate the diversity of opinions that have been

>shared here.

>

>Thanks,

>Caitlin

>Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

><http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

>

>> >

>> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

>> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

>many

>> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

>the

>> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

>will

>> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

>that

>> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

>> >

>> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

>far do

>> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

>not

>> > just the disorder...

>> >

>> > Caitlin

>> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

>www.welcome-to-normal.com

>> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

>> >

>>

>> =

>>

>

February 18, 2010

Perhaps what Caitlin is trying to understand is what I see

in my own 12 year old daughter ...some of these kidos have a

very negative view on any intervention. My daughter can't stand

the idea that anyone would think she needs any social skill development or any

emotional control help with medication in any way.

Perhaps this is rooted in some perfectionistic tendencies. I just

can't have issues like this ... kind of thinking.

Any social skill training in her mind means

she is wierd. No explaining helps. And even though the

zoloft has helped eliminate all traces of panic attacks and

she complains of no side effects she hates taking the medication

again because she thinks this means she is wierd. She has enough

social perpective to realize kids in general are not going to

these classes and taking meds. Wow helping my daughter is really

hard.

For this reason I think she respond to me using a behavior plan

and point chart with her. It puts a lot on me to have to teach

her so many skills in this way. But there is no reasoning

with her.

I think my daughter may very well be one of these people that

writes how she wants to be accepted for who she is. She may

resent that I took away priveleges if she didn't

keep up with her medication (she is on a very low dose mind you).

I cringe when I think about how many years this little girl

had severe panic over minor things in the world. Why she

would not be happy to have that pain be treated I have no idea.

I can only guess she doesn't remember the panic attacks.

That perhaps when they are over they are over. Is there

something missing about emotional memory? Would she really

prefer to panic than think of herself as different (taking medication)?

She may write about how I made her go to a special school and

she hated it. It will sound sad. But the truth is she wouldn't

go to public school any more. She would not homeschool

for me. And the school is a real gem. Kind kind special

ed teachers. Therapy dog program. Animals she visits

with daily in the science room. Classes with 4 other kids in

them. Wow it is amazing, yet she focuses on some minute

negative aspect (no place is perfect).

I will have to live with her negative opinions though. I have to

hope there is some treatment for her negative self talk. My extended

family can see the vast improvement since her panic was

treated. They saw enough

of her outbursts from a young age to 12 to know I had to

make changes to help her. That may be all the validation I ever

get about my interventions on her behalf.

Pam

> >> >

> >> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

> >many

> >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

> >the

> >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

> >will

> >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

> >that

> >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >> >

> >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

> >far do

> >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

> >not

> >> > just the disorder...

> >> >

> >> > Caitlin

> >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

> >www.welcome-to-normal.com

> >> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> >> >

> >>

> >> =

> >>

> >

>

February 18, 2010

It's okay for your daughter to be resistant about social skills training but if she needs it, she needs it. My NT daughter is deathly afraid and unhappy about going to the dentist, but she goes anyway. I think it's a fine line, but there is a line there, even with our kids with Aspergers. I have routinely pushed my son outside of his comfort zone since he was young b/c I had to in order to get him to show progress. We've seen the progress.

"Over-optimism is waiting for you ship to come in when you haven't sent one out."

From: Pamela <susanonderko@...> Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 11:23:42 AMSubject: ( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Perhaps what Caitlin is trying to understand is what I seein my own 12 year old daughter ...some of these kidos have a very negative view on any intervention. My daughter can't standthe idea that anyone would think she needs any social skill development or any emotional control help with medication in any way. Perhaps this is rooted in some perfectionistic tendencies. I justcan't have issues like this ... kind of thinking. Any social skill training in her mind meansshe is wierd. No explaining helps. And even though the zoloft has helped eliminate all traces of panic attacks and she complains of no side effects she hates taking the medicationagain because she thinks this means she is wierd. She has enoughsocial perpective to realize kids in general are not going to these classes and taking meds. Wow helping my daughter is reallyhard. For this reason I think she respond to me using a

behavior planand point chart with her. It puts a lot on me to have to teach her so many skills in this way. But there is no reasoning with her. I think my daughter may very well be one of these people that writes how she wants to be accepted for who she is. She mayresent that I took away priveleges if she didn'tkeep up with her medication (she is on a very low dose mind you).I cringe when I think about how many years this little girlhad severe panic over minor things in the world. Why she would not be happy to have that pain be treated I have no idea. I can only guess she doesn't remember the panic attacks.That perhaps when they are over they are over. Is theresomething missing about emotional memory? Would she reallyprefer to panic than think of herself as different (taking medication)?She may write about how I made her go to a special school and she hated it. It will sound sad.

But the truth is she wouldn'tgo to public school any more. She would not homeschool for me. And the school is a real gem. Kind kind special ed teachers. Therapy dog program. Animals she visitswith daily in the science room. Classes with 4 other kids in them. Wow it is amazing, yet she focuses on some minutenegative aspect (no place is perfect). I will have to live with her negative opinions though. I have to hope there is some treatment for her negative self talk. My extended family can see the vast improvement since her panic wastreated. They saw enough of her outbursts from a young age to 12 to know I had to make changes to help her. That may be all the validation I everget about my interventions on her behalf. Pam > >> >> >> >> >> > I'm just

wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and> >many> >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is> >the> >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in> >will> >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident> >that> >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> >> >> >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how> >far do> >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and> >not> >> > just the disorder...> >> >> >> > Caitlin> >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise

at> >www.welcome- to-normal. com> >> > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> => >>> >> >>

February 18, 2010

Roxanne

I think we all have different ideas about what " fitting in " means to our child.

I completely agree aspies should be taught social skills and life skills. To not

do so would be terrible. I also think parents should do everything they can to

help their child fit in with their physical appearance. My daughter for years

refused to wear jeans because of the seams inside the leg. By the time she was

in 5th grade I had to put my foot down and make her wear them because every

other child in a grade of 1000 kids were wearing jeans. It took some time

getting used to but she did eventually learn to wear jeans.

On the other hand, I also believe there comes a time when you can't force kids

to try to " fit in " with their peers anymore. I've stopped forcing my teenager

daughter to go to parties where I know she stands alone and miserable for 2

hours. I regret the many things I've made her do in the past hoping they would

help her fit in. Most of the time it only made her differences stick out even

more.

She fits in with adults not with kids. When other girls were talking about dolls

in 2nd grade she was talking about the rainforest. The teachers and counselors

told me the only way she would fit in would be to " dumb her down " . Their words,

not mine. So how do you do that?

Unfortunately with many girls these days you do have to be a certain way to " fit

in " . At one school my daughter went to they all carried Coach purses, wore

Abercrombie and Fitch clothes,etc. (in 5th grade!) Even worse, this was the kind

of stuff they wanted to talk about to the exclusion of everything else. My

daughter realized this was not the type person she wanted to be so she chose not

to change to fit in with these girls. And believe me, it was all of the girls in

her class not just one or two. In this case, to " fit in " does not = good.

So this is where I was coming from in my post. Everyone's situation is different

based on their particular circumstances I guess.

> >

> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >

> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not

> > just the disorder...

> >

> > Caitlin

> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> >

>

> =

>

February 18, 2010

Hi , that example reflects things I do with my son as well, and I completely agree does not make him into someone he is not. We stop Simon when he tries to interrupt - I tell him I understand how hard it is for him to keep his idea in his head until it's the right time to share it, but that no one will be able to listen to him if he doesn't wait. It's getting better over time.

Those examples are not the ones I am mainly struggling with. I am struggling with the concept of ABA training, socialization classes, etc, if they are run with the underlying philosophy that AS kids need to act more like 'normal' people - not in the areas of basic politeness, more in the areas of 'fake' responses. Responses they are not wired to have. I am still grappling with the issue of whether AS kids are better left to be different (and whether it is the rest of the world who should indeed be opening themselves up to more diversity) or whether they are truly happier when they have been 'trained' to be social.

CaitlinEmbracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > >> > > > > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many> > > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the> > > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will> > > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that> > > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> > > > > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do> > > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not> > > just the disorder...> > > > > > Caitlin> > > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com> > > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > => >>

February 18, 2010

Pamela

My teenager daughter has taken prozac since 3rd grade and she feels it truly

saved her life. She had a thunderstorm phobia which disrupted our life on a

daily basis 9 months out of the year. She is so grateful for the medication and

so am I. Maybe it would help your daughter if she knew other aspie girls felt

this way.

> > >> >

> > >> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

> > >many

> > >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

> > >the

> > >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

> > >will

> > >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

> > >that

> > >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> > >> >

> > >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

> > >far do

> > >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

> > >not

> > >> > just the disorder...

> > >> >

> > >> > Caitlin

> > >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

> > >www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > >> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >> =

> > >>

> > >

> >

>

February 18, 2010

Hi Roxanna. I am at a point where I am still learning, and I am keeping an open mind. You have, for your own reasons, already made your judgements and assumptions. But I think it's important to note that if you did some more research, you would find the science does not support your position that AS kids 'can learn but choose not to' where socialization is concerned. AS is not a behavioural disorder, it's a neurological one.

I don't think it is productive for me to respond to your posts on this subject. You do not appear to be at a point where you are interested in other people's perspectives. Which is rather ironic, given the subject of Aspergers.

I do hope we can have meaningful exchanges in the future.

CaitlinEmbracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > >> > > > > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many> > > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the> > > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will> > > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that> > > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> > > > > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do> > > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individ ual and not> > > just the disorder...> > > > > > Caitlin> > > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com> > > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > => >>

February 18, 2010

Hi Pam, it sounds like you are a very dedicated mom who wants the best for your daughter, and who cares about how she feels. We can only do our best and trust our instincts. She is lucky to have you!

CaitlinEmbracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com--- In , "Pamela" <susanonderko@...> wrote:>> Perhaps what Caitlin is trying to understand is what I see> in my own 12 year old daughter ...some of these kidos have a > very negative view on any intervention. My daughter can't stand> the idea that anyone would think she needs any social skill development or any emotional control help with medication in any way. > Perhaps this is rooted in some perfectionistic tendencies. I just> can't have issues like this ... kind of thinking. > > Any social skill training in her mind means> she is wierd. No explaining helps. And even though the > zoloft has helped eliminate all traces of panic attacks and > she complains of no side effects she hates taking the medication> again because she thinks this means she is wierd. She has enough> social perpective to realize kids in general are not going to > these classes and taking meds. Wow helping my daughter is really> hard. > > For this reason I think she respond to me using a behavior plan> and point chart with her. It puts a lot on me to have to teach > her so many skills in this way. But there is no reasoning > with her. > > I think my daughter may very well be one of these people that > writes how she wants to be accepted for who she is. She may> resent that I took away priveleges if she didn't> keep up with her medication (she is on a very low dose mind you).> I cringe when I think about how many years this little girl> had severe panic over minor things in the world. Why she > would not be happy to have that pain be treated I have no idea. > I can only guess she doesn't remember the panic attacks.> That perhaps when they are over they are over. Is there> something missing about emotional memory? Would she really> prefer to panic than think of herself as different (taking medication)?> > She may write about how I made her go to a special school and > she hated it. It will sound sad. But the truth is she wouldn't> go to public school any more. She would not homeschool > for me. And the school is a real gem. Kind kind special > ed teachers. Therapy dog program. Animals she visits> with daily in the science room. Classes with 4 other kids in > them. Wow it is amazing, yet she focuses on some minute> negative aspect (no place is perfect). > > I will have to live with her negative opinions though. I have to > hope there is some treatment for her negative self talk. My extended > family can see the vast improvement since her panic was> treated. They saw enough > of her outbursts from a young age to 12 to know I had to > make changes to help her. That may be all the validation I ever> get about my interventions on her behalf. > > > Pam > > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and> > >many> > >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is> > >the> > >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in> > >will> > >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident> > >that> > >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> > >> >> > >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how> > >far do> > >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and> > >not> > >> > just the disorder...> > >> >> > >> > Caitlin> > >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at> > >www.welcome-to-normal.com> > >> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>> > >> >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> => > >>> > >> > >> >>

February 18, 2010

Pam, You speak to my present heartache regarding my 21 yo " adult "

who has decided it is GREAT to be asperger's, and refuse to take

her anxiety medication, when all signs point to her needing it.

Such as going to the urgent care center for severe stomach ache,

such as chest pain, such as being disrespectful to ugly to me and

her father who are not her enemies. OMG I wish so much she could

see that it would be a helpful TOOL for her to live to her best

and most COMFORTABLE and not reject it outright. It was only

Buspar, and it made such a difference.

Maybe she'd be one to say NT's are all wrong on a forum. She isn't

21 in maturity yet. I love her so much, but am thinking of writing

her a letter with her father about her treatment of us, and

how we are supporting her in college, her apart., etc. without

her working. I get so upset, I feel I've lost my best friend!

I've spoken to a asperger psychologist who says some present

with a bipolar affect; it's NOT bipolar disorder, just how the

asp. presents itself.

ANYway. I am so sad right now. Her choices are " adult " choices,

but they're driving a wedge between her and me and her dad.

I hate that. Boy I wish they'd known about this in her

early years. Jo

> > >> >

> > >> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

> > >many

> > >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

> > >the

> > >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

> > >will

> > >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

> > >that

> > >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> > >> >

> > >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

> > >far do

> > >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

> > >not

> > >> > just the disorder...

> > >> >

> > >> > Caitlin

> > >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

> > >www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > >> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >> =

> > >>

> > >

> >

>

February 18, 2010

There is such a range of behaviors as with any disorder or illness.

I have a behavior plan in place some behaviors I can shape. Some

behaviors she still doesn't cooperate with.

For some reason some people can't accept that they need

any help and refuse treatment. My daughter is one of those kids.

I am the parent and I want her to get treatment so I have a

behavioral plan in place to gain cooperation.

I can only hope that eventually she will see the value in

healthy habits and treatments and not resent it so much.

I hope that there is a way to shape a more positive

outlook on healthy habits and treatments. This is what

some of us have to deal with.

Pam

> > >> >

> > >> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

> > >many

> > >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

> > >the

> > >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

> > >will

> > >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

> > >that

> > >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> > >> >

> > >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

> > >far do

> > >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

> > >not

> > >> > just the disorder...

> > >> >

> > >> > Caitlin

> > >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

> > >www.welcome- to-normal. com

> > >> > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >> =

> > >>

> > >

> >

>

February 18, 2010

Thanks, Pam! You just described my 12 yr old son to a T! It is heartbreaking

to hear him tell me he feels like doing all the therapy is telling him he is

broken and needs fixing and is trying to change who he is. Yes, we have

explained until we're blue in the face that we just want to give him the tools

he needs to live a full, productive life in what ever he chooses...

Does this mean I'm going to stop, no, I know I am the parent and will do what is

necessary, but I would love ideas on how to find that balance. I know that I

would hate to feel like I was not " acceptable " as the gift that God made me to

be to those nearest and dearest to me...

No answers here, just trying to work it out for our family. I've known for a

while, but only got a dx this past summer.

BTW-- " she focuses on some minute negative aspect " ---AMEN!! What kind of chart

are you using, Pam?

Blessings,

Charlene

dh Troy

dss Connor (12) and (10)

dd Shaohannah (4, a. 11/20/06 Kunming)

dd Grace (3, a. 12/30/08. Jiaozou via PHF)

Check out the special children at Shepherd's Field Children's Village who need

sponsors! www.ChinaOrphans.org

www.themiracleofthemoment.blogspot.com

>

> Perhaps what Caitlin is trying to understand is what I see

> in my own 12 year old daughter ...some of these kidos have a

> very negative view on any intervention. My daughter can't stand

> the idea that anyone would think she needs any social skill development or any

emotional control help with medication in any way.

> Perhaps this is rooted in some perfectionistic tendencies. I just

> can't have issues like this ... kind of thinking.

>

> Any social skill training in her mind means

> she is wierd. No explaining helps. And even though the

> zoloft has helped eliminate all traces of panic attacks and

> she complains of no side effects she hates taking the medication

> again because she thinks this means she is wierd. She has enough

> social perpective to realize kids in general are not going to

> these classes and taking meds. Wow helping my daughter is really

> hard.

>

> For this reason I think she respond to me using a behavior plan

> and point chart with her. It puts a lot on me to have to teach

> her so many skills in this way. But there is no reasoning

> with her.

>

> I think my daughter may very well be one of these people that

> writes how she wants to be accepted for who she is. She may

> resent that I took away priveleges if she didn't

> keep up with her medication (she is on a very low dose mind you).

> I cringe when I think about how many years this little girl

> had severe panic over minor things in the world. Why she

> would not be happy to have that pain be treated I have no idea.

> I can only guess she doesn't remember the panic attacks.

> That perhaps when they are over they are over. Is there

> something missing about emotional memory? Would she really

> prefer to panic than think of herself as different (taking medication)?

>

> She may write about how I made her go to a special school and

> she hated it. It will sound sad. But the truth is she wouldn't

> go to public school any more. She would not homeschool

> for me. And the school is a real gem. Kind kind special

> ed teachers. Therapy dog program. Animals she visits

> with daily in the science room. Classes with 4 other kids in

> them. Wow it is amazing, yet she focuses on some minute

> negative aspect (no place is perfect).

>

> I will have to live with her negative opinions though. I have to

> hope there is some treatment for her negative self talk. My extended

> family can see the vast improvement since her panic was

> treated. They saw enough

> of her outbursts from a young age to 12 to know I had to

> make changes to help her. That may be all the validation I ever

> get about my interventions on her behalf.

>

> Pam

February 18, 2010

I think you may have a big misconception about what ABA is.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Hi , that example reflects things I do with my son as well, and I completely agree does not make him into someone he is not. We stop Simon when he tries to interrupt - I tell him I understand how hard it is for him to keep his idea in his head until it's the right time to share it, but that no one will be able to listen to him if he doesn't wait. It's getting better over time.

Those examples are not the ones I am mainly struggling with. I am struggling with the concept of ABA training, socialization classes, etc, if they are run with the underlying philosophy that AS kids need to act more like 'normal' people - not in the areas of basic politeness, more in the areas of 'fake' responses. Responses they are not wired to have. I am still grappling with the issue of whether AS kids are better left to be different (and whether it is the rest of the world who should indeed be opening themselves up to more diversity) or whether they are truly happier when they have been 'trained' to be social.

Caitlin

Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > >

> > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> > >

> > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not

> > > just the disorder...

> > >

> > > Caitlin

> > > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com

> > > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>

> > >

> >

> > =

> >

>

February 18, 2010

Caitlin, if you would care to read what I wrote, that is not what I said. We were discussing people who have AS and feel that they were injured or abused by having to learn social skills and/or parents who think it's wrong to provide social skill programming to their kids because it changes "who they are." Try to keep up, especially since you started the thread to begin with.

AS kids can learn. Period. Take a breath. Continue on with the next thought. The ones who decide not to learn skills because they don't want to be "NT" or their parents think they are too cute as they are or that teaching them these skills "changes who they are" (again, references a sub group here, keep up, please) are the ones that "choose not to." If you want to keep arguing the point with me, you will need to email me off list.

I think you are really rude to say I am not at a point where I am interested in other people's perspectives since that is what my initial problem with your post was about and what I said initially to you. Feels like you are just throwing it back and I don't really want to play catch. At least find criticism that is real and original, otherwise I get bored. I actually read about different POV's every day for a lot of years - I even do this on vacation - and you really have no clue who I am or what I think. You can email personal insults to me directly off list and any further posts to the group that are like this will not post. If that means I am "not interested in your POV" then so be it. I'll try to live with that.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Hi Roxanna. I am at a point where I am still learning, and I am keeping an open mind. You have, for your own reasons, already made your judgements and assumptions. But I think it's important to note that if you did some more research, you would find the science does not support your position that AS kids 'can learn but choose not to' where socialization is concerned. AS is not a behavioural disorder, it's a neurological one.

I don't think it is productive for me to respond to your posts on this subject. You do not appear to be at a point where you are interested in other people's perspectives. Which is rather ironic, given the subject of Aspergers.

I do hope we can have meaningful exchanges in the future.

Caitlin

Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > >

> > > I'

m just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> > >

> > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individ ual and not

> > > just the disorder...

> > >

> > > Caitlin

> > > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> > >

> &

gt;

> >

> > =

> >

>

February 18, 2010

One option you can think about is using your 12 yo ds's needs/wants to get him to do his therapy. Find out what he wants out of life - a future career goal? Or maybe he just wants to get through the school year in one piece! In middle school, after a few disasters, my ds finally got hooked up with a sped teacher who did a lot of things right with him. She said that she applied "cognitive behavior therapy" with him when I asked. Basically, she just leveled with him in most cases where he did not want to cooperate. She just would tell him, "I know you hate this. I know it's hard. We need to get this done so we can...(do whatever comes next...)" or, "I know you hate to write poetry but you can't pass this class or pass 8th grade without getting it done. So let me help you figure something out...." and it worked fairly well with him. I think just knowing why he had to do things sometimes really helped.

Also, she figured out what things were rewarding to him and she had those handy for times he really put forth effort, meaning he learned to try and give effort. It was not always successful. But it worked a lot more often than not.

I have seen this idea expanded upon in other places as well. Winner <www.socialthinking.com> has a whole talk on making up a folder that explains all the therapies, the goal of the therapy and so forth. You gain cooperation by including the child in the whole process so that they know why they are doing this and what the goal is about.

Another idea is to make sure therapy is being targeted to his specific needs and that it is taught appropriately as well. A lot of classes discussing things he already knows or things he does not care about will only bore him and cause him to want to do less.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Thanks, Pam! You just described my 12 yr old son to a T! It is heartbreaking to hear him tell me he feels like doing all the therapy is telling him he is broken and needs fixing and is trying to change who he is. Yes, we have explained until we're blue in the face that we just want to give him the tools he needs to live a full, productive life in what ever he chooses...

Does this mean I'm going to stop, no, I know I am the parent and will do what is necessary, but I would love ideas on how to find that balance. I know that I would hate to feel like I was not "acceptable" as the gift that God made me to be to those nearest and dearest to me...

No answers here, just trying to work it out for our family. I've known for a while, but only got a dx this past summer.

BTW--"she focuses on some minute negative aspect"---AMEN!! What kind of chart are you using, Pam?

Blessings,

Charlene

dh Troy

dss Connor (12) and (10)

dd Shaohannah (4, a. 11/20/06 Kunming)

dd Grace (3, a. 12/30/08. Jiaozou via PHF)

Check out the special children at Shepherd's Field Children's Village who need sponsors! www.ChinaOrphans.org

www.themiracleofthemoment.blogspot.com

>

> Perhaps what Caitlin is trying to understand is what I see

> in my own 12 year old daughter ...some of these kidos have a

> very negative view on any intervention. My daughter can't stand

> the idea that anyone would think she needs any social skill development or any emotional control help with medication in any way.

> Perhaps this is rooted in some perfectionistic tendencies. I just

> can't have issues like this ... kind of thinking.

>

> Any social skill training in her mind means

> she is wierd. No explaining helps. And even though the

> zoloft has helped eliminate all traces of panic attacks and

> she complains of no side effects she hates taking the medication

> again because she thinks this means she is wierd. She has enough

> social perpective to realize kids in general are not going to

> these classes and taking meds. Wow helping my daughter is really

> hard.

>

> For this reason I think she respond to me using a behavior plan

> and point chart with her. It puts a lot on me to have to teach

> her so many skills in this way. But there is no reasoning

> with her.

>

> I think my daughter may very well be one of these people that

> writes how she wants to be accepted for who she is. She may

> resent that I took away priveleges if she didn't

> keep up with her medication (she is on a very low dose mind you).

> I cringe when I think about how many years this little girl

> had severe panic over minor things in the world. Why she

> would not be happy to have that pain be treated I have no idea.

> I can only guess she doesn't remember the panic attacks.

> That perhaps when they are over they are over. Is there

> something missing about emotional memory? Would she really

> prefer to panic than think of herself as different (taking medication)?

>

> She may write about how I made her go to a special school and

> she hated it. It will sound sad. But the truth is she wouldn't

> go to public school any more. She would not homeschool

> for me. And the school is a real gem. Kind kind special

> ed teachers. Therapy dog program. Animals she visits

> with daily in the science room. Classes with 4 other kids in

> them. Wow it is amazing, yet she focuses on some minute

> negative aspect (no place is perfect).

>

> I will have to live with her negative opinions though. I have to

> hope there is some treatment for her negative self talk. My extended

> family can see the vast improvement since her panic was

> treated. They saw enough

> of her outbursts from a young age to 12 to know I had to

> make changes to help her. That may be all the validation I ever

> get about my interventions on her behalf.

>

> Pam

February 19, 2010

Robin, we have had this discussion many times before and I know you are my polar opposite. lol. That's fine with me and I'm glad it is working for you. I think we agree on a lot of things though and probably most things because I always see your point.

I do think you have to stop at a point and always assess where you are going and how to get there. I think there were a lot of hastily put together programs these past years and kids like ours were subjected to not-so-great experiences in this area. I found with my oldest ds that a lot of the programming I fought to get in place was run by people who were clueless as to how to work with older kids. This was a major problem for my ds. With my 13 yo, he has said, "I don't like going to that." before and we've had to switch gears along the way. I work hard to tell him why he is doing things or having to learn things so he is fairly cooperative. So far anyway. lol. He is 13! lol.

I am all for acceptance too, really, I was not kidding. I think that is part of life overall and a natural part of parenting. I don't think we have to run kids into the ground with services or that we shouldn't realize that they will always have AS/HFA. I think my overall point got lost but I really just meant to say that it's not an "either/or" proposition. We have to constantly take "the temperature" of things and consider our child's needs at that time. The whole idea that "fitting in...at what cost" was to me such a one sided set up. You either forced your kid to conform or you accepted them as they were - well, I don't see the situation like that all. You can do both, I think most parents do both. I think you and I do both.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 10:32 PM

I think I see both points of view here.

I agree in that "fitting in" to be polite,

respectful, kind and independent are necessary skills to learn.

I gave some example previously in this thread of how my AS daughter does not appropriately adapt to societies rules on social

behavior.

But if the parents here mean "fitting in" to be adapting

to a groups values on social status items(teens wanting

to buy some designer clothes or purchases of expensive

electronic devices, or following some trend), that may be asking our kids way too much.

Our kids may not "fit into" the popular groups at school.

Perhaps this is what the parents were implying.

I know my daughter does not feel she even fits in at the

special needs school she attends. She has such

trouble connecting whereever she is.

I wish there was a place to retreat to where these

problems would go away. I did the best I could

getting

my daughter into a very sensitive and kind school

(population 65 kids) and the problems still follow

us to some extent. It's better but not as much as I hoped.

It is a struggle for us for sure and our kids of course.

Pam

> >

> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >

> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > you go with treatments before you

start erasing the individual and not

> > just the disorder...

> >

> > Caitlin

> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com

> > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>

> >

>

> =

>

February 19, 2010

I think you are doing a wonderful job, Pam. I read your posts on here all the time and you have a lot more patience than I would have at times. I can even relate to some of the problems you have - it is kind of a mix between my two ds's who have HFA. The older one had major major anxiety early on. We did start medication for it when he was 6. And the meds worked really really well! But he is also the same as your dd regarding therapy meaning something is wrong with him and he won't take meds (he is 21 yo now!) etc. He started refusing meds in middle school. I never thought about a connection between the anxiety and the view that they don't have any problems. It's an interesting idea to think about. I think the general make up of how he thinks causes his anxiety and causes his inability to see things more clearly. One test he always failed in a major way was "problem solving."

Anyway, I have just tried to talk to my ds in a practical manner and don't know if I get far with it or not. He is not a talker and so we don't have any deep meaningful conversations unless they are 2 words or less. lol. But, he has realized that he does need meds to help with sleep. The other issues - social avoidance and anxiety, he does not address except to withdraw. He is doing pretty good right now so this is not a major daily problem as it used to be. I'm not sure how it will work out as he goes to college classes and hopefully gets a job someday. Will he be able to do that? Will he need meds and realize he does? Will he figure it out on his own? So we'll have to see.

My other ds has the negative view about everything in his life. He is very depressed and he knows it. He isn't anxiety prone though. But he sees the negative in everything, which is so difficult to live with. I just keep pointing out the things he is missing along the way. Like if his dad yelled at him, he might rant about that for the next 6 months and decide his father hates him and it is proof that he is a terrible person. So I take extra time to say, "Look, dad stopped and got you that (whatever) you wanted, isn't that nice?" because it is as if he doesn't notice those things. He so over focuses on the bad part that he doesn't put it into context. It does help a little, over time. I can definitely cut down the ranting now with a well placed "Is this the same father who (name something he did recently)?" and then it tends to make him stop and think that perhaps he is making it a lot worse than it needs to be. But he is really bad about that sort of thing.

Hang in there! Even if she has complaints when she is grown, don't we all? lol. So just keep telling yourself that you are doing the best you can.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Perhaps what Caitlin is trying to understand is what I see

in my own 12 year old daughter ...some of these kidos have a

very negative view on any intervention. My daughter can't stand

the idea that anyone would think she needs any social skill development or any emotional control help with medication in any way.

Perhaps this is rooted in some perfectionistic tendencies. I just

can't have issues like this ... kind of thinking.

Any social skill training in her mind means

she is wierd. No explaining helps. And even though the

zoloft has helped eliminate all traces of panic attacks and

she complains of no side effects she hates taking the medication

again because she thinks this means she is wierd. She has enough

social perpective to realize kids in general are not going to

these classes and taking meds. Wow helping my daughter is really

hard.

For this reason I think she respond to me using a behavior plan

and point chart with her. It puts a lot on me to have to teach

her so many skills in this way. But there is no reasoning

with her.

I think my daughter may very well be one of these people that

writes how she wants to be accepted for who she is. She may

resent that I took away priveleges if she didn't

keep up with her medication (she is on a very low dose mind you).

I cringe when I think about how many years this little girl

had severe panic over minor things in the world. Why she

would not be happy to have that pain be treated I have no idea.

I can only guess she doesn't remember the panic attacks.

That perhaps when they are over they are over. Is there

something missing about emotional memory? Would she really

prefer to panic than think of herself as different (taking medication)?

She may write about how I made her go to a special school and

she hated it. It will sound sad. But the truth is she wouldn't

go to public school any more. She would not homeschool

for me. And the school is a real gem. Kind kind special

ed teachers. Therapy dog program. Animals she visits

with daily in the science room. Classes with 4 other kids in

them. Wow it is amazing, yet she focuses on some minute

negative aspect (no place is perfect).

I will have to live with her negative opinions though. I have to

hope there is some treatment for her negative self talk. My extended

family can see the vast improvement since her panic was

treated. They saw enough

of her outbursts from a young age to 12 to know I had to

make changes to help her. That may be all the validation I ever

get about my interventions on her behalf.

Pam

> >> >

> >> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> >> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and

> >many

> >> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is

> >the

> >> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in

> >will

> >> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident

> >that

> >> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >> >

> >> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how

> >far do

> >> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and

> >not

> >> > just the disorder...

> >> >

> >> > Caitlin

> >> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at

> >www.welcome-to-normal.com

> >> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> >> >

> >>

> >> =

> >>

> >

>

February 19, 2010

I think we are having somewhat different conversations. I get your point and I would get your point even for NT kids. If you live in a place where having designer clothes is the way to fit in, I would not be able to force my kids to fit in to that. I would also object to that based on just teaching your kid better priorities in life - NT or not! But I wasn't really talking about fitting in in the sense of "being popular" but rather, being able to function within society overall. I hope that helps explain what I meant.

As to your point, obviously I do not think we should push our kids to play with the popular crowd if that is not their desire or ability. You said you forced your dd to wear jeans, which I did not do with mine. That is an issue, and I agree it is hard to tell how to handle it. When our kids dress differently, they stand out more. That can cause problems with making friends. My oldest ds finally started wearing jeans on his own in 8th grade. It was such a shock and a sign he was noticing the kids around him and wanting to fit in. Up until then, he wore sweats. My 13 yo ds now just started wearing jeans last year. I didn't not push it but maybe I wished it a lot. lol.

I would not drop my kid off at parties either. I doubt either would even go to a party. lol. Well, my 13 yo might. But I would be so afraid to let him because he is taken advantage of a lot by other kids. But I agree, you shouldn't make a kid go to parties if they are not the party type. And again, that is not the kind of "fitting in" I meant.

I'm not sure how what I said got to this point. lol. But I hope I clarified things a little. I totally agree with you that we don't need to force our kids to be popular, go to parties when they don't want to go and the clothes is a big issue - I see both sides to the clothes between wanting them to feel comfortable vs. looking too odd in the group. But I think many of the AS/HFA kids start to become aware of what other kids look like as they get older and they often want to fit in. Some won't. But many do from the posts I have read all these years. My youngest, not AS/HFA, wears many of his shirts inside out and he does not care what other kids say or think either. The kids he went to school with got used to that and it was just the way he was. And after two brothers with HFA, it did not bother us that much to let him do that.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not

Roxanne

I think we all have different ideas about what "fitting in" means to our child. I completely agree aspies should be taught social skills and life skills. To not do so would be terrible. I also think parents should do everything they can to help their child fit in with their physical appearance. My daughter for years refused to wear jeans because of the seams inside the leg. By the time she was in 5th grade I had to put my foot down and make her wear them because every other child in a grade of 1000 kids were wearing jeans. It took some time getting used to but she did eventually learn to wear jeans.

On the other hand, I also believe there comes a time when you can't force kids to try to "fit in" with their peers anymore. I've stopped forcing my teenager daughter to go to parties where I know she stands alone and miserable for 2 hours. I regret the many things I've made her do in the past hoping they would help her fit in. Most of the time it only made her differences stick out even more.

She fits in with adults not with kids. When other girls were talking about dolls in 2nd grade she was talking about the rainforest. The teachers and counselors told me the only way she would fit in would be to "dumb her down". Their words, not mine. So how do you do that?

Unfortunately with many girls these days you do have to be a certain way to "fit in". At one school my daughter went to they all carried Coach purses, wore Abercrombie and Fitch clothes,etc. (in 5th grade!) Even worse, this was the kind of stuff they wanted to talk about to the exclusion of everything else. My daughter realized this was not the type person she wanted to be so she chose not to change to fit in with these girls. And believe me, it was all of the girls in her class not just one or two. In this case, to "fit in" does not = good.

So this is where I was coming from in my post. Everyone's situation is different based on their particular circumstances I guess.

> >

> > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of

> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many

> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the

> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will

> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that

> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?

> >

> > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do

> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not

> > just the disorder...

> >

> > Caitlin

> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome-to-normal.com

> > <http://www.welcome-to-normal.com>

> >

>

> =

>

February 20, 2010

Yep,,,,,I KNOW that we both (all) conform and accept.......sigh. It's tiring, isn't it? Ha!

I often think I'm a 2-sided mom. On certain days, I'd fight our minister if I had to for my son,,,,,,,and on other days, I just wanna pull all my kids out from whatever they're in not deal with anyone.

Sometimes I think helping them "fit" or "conform" is too hard, and at other times I feel it's cruel.

Same for the letting them "be" or "accepting" them. It crushes me sometimes to see him be OKAY with his life............and I want to push him and get him into wonderful classes and make him do what I want him to do. Then, I feel such an overpowering sense of guilt. Maybe it's that I feel if I push him, I don't accept him. Ugh....

You're right. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It's impossible to be one way all the time.

We, as parents, have to take into account where our kids' paths MAY go as well as OUR personalities.........and it definitely and sadly has to deal with the support we have at the time as well as the school district and what services are being given (or not)....ugh.

So,,,,,,you got it, woman. I think we are definite opposites on many things....but I think we are a lot alike. more often than not. And yes, it has to do with both of us being able to see the other ones point.

These deeply personal discussions are so brutal, it seems. Wish it wasn't that way. Some, not myself, are so eloquent in expressing exactly what they mean to say. Others, like myself, sit here and type fast like a crazy person, trying to get out what we "FEEL" and often times, come up short.

I wish we could all just "speak" what we want and assume that there are no hard feelings anywhere. That,,,,if we agree,,,,,,either agree or leave it be. And if we don't agree,,,,,then discuss it or don't. I don't believe anyone looking for answers and/or support means to insult anyone.......man, I hope not. But,,,,it seems that whenever there is a really serious post,,,,this happens. Sigh.

Thanks for your reply, though, Roxanna. I agree.

It really is simple. Just treat others kindly and with respect.

Robin

From: Pamela <susanonderko>Subject: ( ) Re: Fitting in... at what cost do we not Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 10:32 PM

I think I see both points of view here. I agree in that "fitting in" to be polite,respectful, kind and independent are necessary skills to learn. I gave some example previously in this thread of how my AS daughter does not appropriately adapt to societies rules on social behavior. But if the parents here mean "fitting in" to be adapting to a groups values on social status items(teens wantingto buy some designer clothes or purchases of expensiveelectronic devices, or following some trend), that may be asking our kids way too much.Our kids may not "fit into" the popular groups at school. Perhaps this is what the parents were implying. I know my daughter does not feel she even fits in at the special needs school she attends. She has such trouble connecting whereever she is. I wish there was a place to retreat to where theseproblems would go away. I did the best I could

gettingmy daughter into a very sensitive and kind school (population 65 kids) and the problems still followus to some extent. It's better but not as much as I hoped.It is a struggle for us for sure and our kids of course. Pam > >> > > > I'm just wondering what people's perspectives are on the issue of> > 'fitting in'. I've been reading a lot of articles by aspies, and many> > seem to feel that forcing them to fit in or trying to 'cure them' is the> > wrong approach. Do you worry that 'training' your Aspie to fit in will> > fundamentally change who they are meant to be, or are you confident that> > training them to fit in is the best thing for them in the long run?> > > > This is a piece of the puzzle that I am still perplexed by... how far do> > you go with treatments before you start erasing the individual and not> > just the disorder...> > > >

Caitlin> > Embracing change as a blessing in disguise at www.welcome- to-normal. com> > <http://www.welcome- to-normal. com>> >> > > > > > > > =>

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