RE: Comparing Bio-Kult and Ultimate Flora

[Guest guest]

Wow, very interesting!Unfortunately KerryAnn -- this is the EXACT probiotic I took that I experienced zero results from.I may have told this story before -- please forgive me if you've heard it before.

As many of you know I healed my gut and recovered completely from candida/disbyosis back almost 15 years ago. It wasn't until my OBGYN put me on the birth control pill last May/June that I started having symptoms again. Some of the same symptoms started coming back after 15 years -- chronic sores in my nose that would not heal and respiratory allergies (itching, sneezing, post nasal drip).

When I figured out that it was the pill that was making my candida come back a few months later (I read about it online -- had no idea the pill was related), I got off of it immediately and went to Whole Foods and bought that probiotic -- that exact one, Ultimate Flora. I went off sugar and refined carbs and started on the probiotic -- a few caps per day (don't remember exactly but it was at least 2-4 capsules per day. I kept upping it thinking I needed more.).

Nothing happened. I kept at it for over a month. Still nothing. I had all my symptoms. I didn't experience any signs of die-off.Meanwhile I had read McCarthy's book Louder Than Words. She had used ThreeLac with her autistic son and he had massive die-off. So I had ordered some. Within THREE days of taking ThreeLac (only one packet per day), the sores in my nose were gone! My allergy symptoms disappeared within a couple weeks. I only took one packet per day -- never increased it.

So I would not recommend the Ultimate Flora unfortunately, based on my personal experience.As far as ThreeLac, I think the Biokult is better than ThreeLac or FiveLac since it has more strains and 10x the organisms. That's why we switched, even though the ThreeLac does work.

I know Biokult is expensive but at least I know it works. You could try it for a month and see if you have any results. I'm going to place an order for more Biokult this weekend. If anyone is interested in going in on it with me to get the 10% discount on 10 or more bottles, let me know and I'll coordinate it. I guess people can send me checks and I can forward the bottles to you. The Nutrivene place is supposedly very fast with shipping -- someone said they ordered Fri and got it Mon.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

> related), I got off of it immediately and went to Whole Foods and bought

>that probiotic -- that exact one, Ultimate Flora. I went off sugar and

>Nothing happened. I kept at it for over a month. Still nothing. I had all

>my symptoms. I didn't experience any signs of die-off.

>So I would not recommend the Ultimate Flora unfortunately, based on my

>personal experience.

That's quite interesting. I'd have to question your HFSs handling of them-

maybe they were mishandled and left at room temperature in storage or

otherwise mistreated before getting into your hands? I had amazing results

from using Ultimate Flora, including one heck of a die-off reaction and

rapid healing.

KerryAnn

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

" I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

Hi KerryAnn,

I appreciate your posting this information. I ordered Bio-Kult from Gut

Health about a month ago and have yet to receive it (It was backordered

but now I've sent an email to see if it got lost in the mail). I

originally ordered it for my daughter although my husband and myself need

to heal our guts as well. I'm willing to try the Ultimate Flora for us.

Do you know whether we can open the capsules to give it to my daughter

(she is 4.5 yr old and not interested in learning to swallow capsules) or

will this kill off the probiotics? The probiotic we've been giving her is

a powder (Pharmax HCL) and there isn't a problem with it.

Thanks,

Jane

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:38 AM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...> wrote:

That's quite interesting. I'd have to question your HFSs handling of them-

maybe they were mishandled and left at room temperature in storage or

otherwise mistreated before getting into your hands? I had amazing results

from using Ultimate Flora, including one heck of a die-off reaction and

rapid healing.I guess it's possible that Whole Foods did not refrigerate them properly... they were in the fridge when I bought them. Actually, come to think of it... I first bought them at Vitamin Shoppe and then I bought a second bottle at Whole Foods. So that's 2 different stores. Both were in the fridge.

I wonder if you would have had even more die-off with Biokult? You had pretty severe disbyosis so even a little would have given you results, I bet. And perhaps now you need a stronger probiotic with different strains... maybe you will progress much faster in your healing. It may be worth trying it to see!

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

> Do you know whether we can open the capsules to give it to my daughter

> (she is 4.5 yr old and not interested in learning to swallow capsules) or

> will this kill off the probiotics? The probiotic we've been giving her is

When you open the capsule, it's a powder. I did that for my kids.

KerryAnn

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

" I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

I see that there is FOS in the Ultimate Flora. If this is " bad " then

the Bio Kult would be a better choice. What i would like to know is

why Bio Kult seems to be the only brand that does not have any FOS in

theirs. Are they the only company enlightened enough to not be using

them? Or is the FOS thing totally overplayed by that other site?

>

>>> Anyone know any reason why the Bio-Kult would be preferable to the

Ultimate

> Flora?

[Guest guest]

Did I miss something with FOS being a bad thing? Isn't this the food

for some of the healthy microflora. Please elaborate!

What I have seen in other is that not all microflora are

alike ... and not all people need the same type of microflora.

Different people have different deficiencies of different microflora.

And Different microflora feed on different saccharides and, I believe,

different organic acids.

I always think about the story of the author of Maker's Diet (Jordan

?). He tried every probiotic he came into contact with, but it

was a " new " probiotic soil organism that did the trick ... for him.

I have given my son a number of different ones before I realized this.

Then, as I studied bacteria that fed on oxalic acids (in which my son

has way too much) I realized that the very bacteria that was necessary

was the one that LAST YEARS tests showed him deficient in. All these

top ranked probiotic formulations did not have this bacteria. I

believe Bio Kult has it and so does VSL#3. Either way, I think its best

to use the one that works for you.

Connie

> >

> >>> Anyone know any reason why the Bio-Kult would be preferable to

the

> Ultimate

> > Flora?

>

[Guest guest]

How did you test your son? How did you know what he was deficient in?

On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 5:48 AM, cbalmony <cbalmony@...> wrote:

> I have given my son a number of different ones before I realized this.

> Then, as I studied bacteria that fed on oxalic acids (in which my son

> has way too much) I realized that the very bacteria that was necessary

> was the one that LAST YEARS tests showed him deficient in. All these

> top ranked probiotic formulations did not have this bacteria. I

> believe Bio Kult has it and so does VSL#3. Either way, I think its best

> to use the one that works for you.

[Guest guest]

Yes you did there is an article pn healing crow ?? that says it is

not good.

What was the bacteria that feeds on Oxalic acid and how do you know

if you have too much - outside of testing.

What is VSL3?

>

> Did I miss something with FOS being a bad thing? Isn't this the

food

> for some of the healthy microflora. Please elaborate!

>

>

> Then, as I studied bacteria that fed on oxalic acids (in which my

son

> has way too much) I realized that the very bacteria that was

necessary

> was the one that LAST YEARS tests showed him deficient in. All

so does VSL#3. Either way,

[Guest guest]

KerryAnn,

I noticed that the capsules are enteric coated so when you opened them did

your kids still get the benefit? Also, when I looked at the box at the

store today, it said that it may have traces of dairy protein from the

culturing process (or something to that degree). Did your family have any

issues with that?

Thanks,

Jane

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com wrote:

>> Do you know whether we can open the capsules to give it to my daughter

>> (she is 4.5 yr old and not interested in learning to swallow capsules) or

>> will this kill off the probiotics? The probiotic we've been giving her is

>

> When you open the capsule, it's a powder. I did that for my kids.

>

> KerryAnn

> www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

> " I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

> were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I noticed that the capsules are enteric coated so when you opened them did

> your kids still get the benefit? Also, when I looked at the box at the

> store today, it said that it may have traces of dairy protein from the

> culturing process (or something to that degree). Did your family have any

> issues with that?

The ones I bought weren't enteric coated, they were in gelatin capsules.

Maybe they changed since I took it almost 2 years ago?

When I used it, it wasn't grown on dairy, either. At least, I didn't think

that they were since I reacted to even cross-contamination during that time.

I have the old bottle- when I get home later this week, I'll have to check.

KerryAnn

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

" I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

The test was the Comprehensive Stool Analysis from Doctors Data. I

don't think it measures all necessary microflora, but I don't think

anyone knows exactly what is there, what is good and what is bad. I

believe the GAPS author says there are 400 good bacteria in the gut.

This tests Bifidobacter, E.coli (the beneficial form) and

Lactobacillus. My son was deficient in Bifidobacter, but fine on the

others. B.infantis (of the bifidobacter species) is one that seems

to be important in degrading oxalates. Few probiotics are heavy on

this one and I wonder how viable some of the ones I have seen are.

The yogurt we make with the VSL#3 seems to be improving things so

far, but it is still to soon to tell.

Connie

>

> > I have given my son a number of different ones before I realized

this.

> > Then, as I studied bacteria that fed on oxalic acids (in which

my son

> > has way too much) I realized that the very bacteria that was

necessary

> > was the one that LAST YEARS tests showed him deficient in. All

these

> > top ranked probiotic formulations did not have this bacteria. I

> > believe Bio Kult has it and so does VSL#3. Either way, I think

its best

> > to use the one that works for you.

>

[Guest guest]

My son was deficient in the bifidobacter species. I am most

concerned about the bifidobacterum infantis, which has shown great

ability to degrade oxalates (oxalic acid). We did an Organic Acid

Test (OAT) which showd high oxalic acid for him. However, after

reading about it I found that my daughter and I also have many of the

symptoms. It can cause things like arthritic pain, vulvar pain,

kidney stones, etc. You can also see it in cloudy, or crystalized

urine, Black or white specks in the stool. Oxalates are in many of

your healthiest foods, but specific microflora use them as a food

source. If you are missing that microflora, the oxalates will reek

havoc on the body. Another microflora that feeds on oxalate (the

best) is oxalobacter formigenes. It is currently being studied for

kidney stones, but is not available in supplement form to the public.

Connie

> >

> > Did I miss something with FOS being a bad thing? Isn't this the

> food

> > for some of the healthy microflora. Please elaborate!

> >

> >

>

>

> > Then, as I studied bacteria that fed on oxalic acids (in which my

> son

> > has way too much) I realized that the very bacteria that was

> necessary

> > was the one that LAST YEARS tests showed him deficient in. All

>

> so does VSL#3. Either way,

>

[Guest guest]

Natren Life Start is primarily bifidius including B. infantis. Of course BioKult has it too.I don't think you can go wrong by taking BioKult because if you keep giving a mix of cultures they will colonize in time -- as long as there are sufficient numbers of the good guys and the bad guys are not getting food.

Interesting -- I was listening to Dr. CMcB's lecture yesterday. She said most probiotics are " prophylactic " . In other words, just preventative. But she said they are completely ineffective to cause a colonization.

[Guest guest]

My mom still had a bottle of them here, I found them in the fridge last

night. They are gelatin capsules that are enteric coated. Mine says

nothing about being cultured on dairy on it. Perhaps labeling laws have

changed enough that they have to include that now?

KerryAnn

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

" I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

Hi KerryAnn,

That was my thought. The box on the web indicates that they are Dairy

Free. I went ahead and ordered some to try. I figure if you didn't have

problems with them, its worth a try.

Thanks for all your help,

Jane

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com wrote:

> My mom still had a bottle of them here, I found them in the fridge last

> night. They are gelatin capsules that are enteric coated. Mine says

> nothing about being cultured on dairy on it. Perhaps labeling laws have

> changed enough that they have to include that now?

>

> KerryAnn

> www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!

> " I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them they

> were slaves. " Harriet Tubman

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was just listening to one of Kaayla 's seminar on soy at the last WAPF conference (2007) and she said oxalates is related to soy. Just something to be aware of.Ann Marie

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 6:53 AM, cbalmony <cbalmony@...> wrote:

My son was deficient in the bifidobacter species. I am most

concerned about the bifidobacterum infantis, which has shown great

ability to degrade oxalates (oxalic acid). We did an Organic Acid

Test (OAT) which showd high oxalic acid for him. However, after

[Guest guest]

I am very interested in knowing if anyone has an opinion on this. We have a family of 6, and the cost of buying Biokult for all of us is staggering.

TIA!a

[ ] Comparing Bio-Kult and Ultimate Flora

I've been looking into Bio-Kult since finding out about GAPS. I am 20months into my healing journey from leaky gut, and I used Renew LifeUltimate Flora. As it turns out, the two are almost identical, except forcost and number of probiotics per capsule.If my math is right, just one month of Bio-Kult for a family of two kids andtwo adults would be over $230 plus shipping for the recommended amount! Itappears that 4 months are recommended for a grand total of $1125 for therecommended course, plus shipping. It only contains 10 billion per capsule.By comparison, the Ultimate Flora by Renew Life that I used contained 50billion per capsule of just about an identical list of probiotics. For acomparable amount of probiotic, it would only cost a family of four $128.22at http://www.luckyvitamin.com/631257535504.html and would get freeshipping. So even if you bought the couple of probiotics that theRenew Life is missing and added S. bourladii, the price difference here isstaggering.Anyone know any reason why the Bio-Kult would be preferable to the UltimateFlora? Even if you doubled up on the Ultimate Flora as a precaution, we'restill talking about a staggering price difference!KerryAnn www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!"I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them theywere slaves." Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

Also, have been wanting to ask if Dr. Natasa has any financial ties to BioKult, just curious. I don't have a problem if she does, just think it should be disclosed, to be ethical, that is. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, it's not personal.

[ ] Comparing Bio-Kult and Ultimate Flora

I've been looking into Bio-Kult since finding out about GAPS. I am 20months into my healing journey from leaky gut, and I used Renew LifeUltimate Flora. As it turns out, the two are almost identical, except forcost and number of probiotics per capsule.If my math is right, just one month of Bio-Kult for a family of two kids andtwo adults would be over $230 plus shipping for the recommended amount! Itappears that 4 months are recommended for a grand total of $1125 for therecommended course, plus shipping. It only contains 10 billion per capsule.By comparison, the Ultimate Flora by Renew Life that I used contained 50billion per capsule of just about an identical list of probiotics. For acomparable amount of probiotic, it would only cost a family of four $128.22at http://www.luckyvitamin.com/631257535504.html and would get freeshipping. So even if you bought the couple of probiotics that theRenew Life is missing and added S. bourladii, the price difference here isstaggering.Anyone know any reason why the Bio-Kult would be preferable to the UltimateFlora? Even if you doubled up on the Ultimate Flora as a precaution, we'restill talking about a staggering price difference!KerryAnn www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!"I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them theywere slaves." Harriet Tubman

[Guest guest]

As I understand it, it is her probiotic. She and her husband developed

it.

K.

>

> Also, have been wanting to ask if Dr. Natasa has any financial ties

to BioKult, just curious. I don't have a problem if she does, just

think it should be disclosed, to be ethical, that is. Sorry if this is

offensive to anyone, it's not personal.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

She and her husband developed it. They co-own the company with a few others.http://www.bio-kult.com/You're correct about disclosure. It is important. The biokult site doesn't explain who the team of doctors are but I think the newsletters on the site do. She developed the product along the lines of primal defense but without the added grains.Lynn <Ladyshrink111@...> wrote: Also, have been wanting to ask if Dr. Natasa has any financial ties to BioKult, just curious. I don't have a

problem if she does, just think it should be disclosed, to be ethical, that is. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, it's not personal. [ ] Comparing Bio-Kult and Ultimate Flora I've

been looking into Bio-Kult since finding out about GAPS. I am 20months into my healing journey from leaky gut, and I used Renew LifeUltimate Flora. As it turns out, the two are almost identical, except forcost and number of probiotics per capsule.If my math is right, just one month of Bio-Kult for a family of two kids andtwo adults would be over $230 plus shipping for the recommended amount! Itappears that 4 months are recommended for a grand total of $1125 for therecommended course, plus shipping. It only contains 10 billion per capsule.By comparison, the Ultimate Flora by Renew Life that I used contained 50billion per capsule of just about an identical list of probiotics. For acomparable amount of probiotic, it would only cost a family of four $128.22at http://www.luckyvitamin.com/631257535504.html and would get freeshipping. So even if you bought the couple of probiotics that theRenew Life is missing and added S. bourladii, the price difference here isstaggering.Anyone know any reason why the Bio-Kult would be preferable to the UltimateFlora? Even if you doubled up on the Ultimate Flora as a precaution, we'restill talking about a staggering price difference!KerryAnn www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer and NEW Forum!"I could have saved thousands-if only I'd been able to convince them theywere slaves." Harriet Tubman