Re: 's Intro

July 18, 2002

Hi, I give my reasons why I don't allow my kids to be vaccinated

http://66.70.140.217/a/webmaster.html

and a bit on mmr http://66.70.140.217/vaccine/points.html

IMO: basically the chances of your child dying of measles are virtually nil

unless it is on steroids or chemotherapy--I gave measles to my whole school of

100 8-12 yr olds in 1962 and no one batted an eyelid, and my mother can't recall

any fear of measles, in fact you can still find measles parties in the UK---but

mmr does kill--JABS has 24 on its books in the UK, and the government has

awarded at least two that I know of, plus the risk of mild to serious

behavioural disorders like autism.

And measles deaths declined by 99.4% before vaccination so I am not convinced

vaccination did a few points of a percent. And if you know a naturopath or

homeopath & breastfeed all the better.

And measles may be an immune detoxifying and/or priming process for the immune

system for inherited disease traits and/or imbalanced diet. It is an experiment

which has a few decades to run, using crude science and materials like mercury,

alcohols, toxic antibiotics like neomycin.

The hep b has to be the most cynical money extraction ploy I have ever come

across bar the chickenpox or flu vaccines. If your child is into drug use with

needles or casual sex then there might be some reason to vaccinate babies apart

from the fact they have never proven hepatitis is caused by a virus or even if

it exists, plus the risk of death or MS--two awards were given by the French

government for vaccine MS, but I have yet to see that in any UK paper.

http://66.70.140.217/vaccine/point.html

john

's intro

Hi all!

I'm new to the group here and am looking forward to

reviewing the posts for news on vaccines. My question

here is to get info regarding the MMR. My daughter is

up for that and that was the only one that we were

going to do but now I'm not sure if it's good or not.

I know there was a scare regarding autism and the MMR

and also know about all the thimerisol and other junk

that's in vaccines. Is this a good thing to do for a

child who is going to be homeschooled? Do I have to

keep some kind of paperwork for my kids if they do end

up going to a school?

Anyway, back to the intro. I have two kids ages 3 and

1. When we had my son in CA, they wouldn't let us

leave the hospital without giving him the hepB

vaccination. We were pretty much scared into giving it

to him and when we got to our appointment, we

expressed to the pediatrician that we didn't want to

vax and wanted to wait until we read more. He

literally took our son and vaccinated him against our

will. We left that office and never returned. Since

then we fight our pediatricians on why we don't want

to vaccinate. We had our son vaccinated with hep B,

MMR and I think he got the polio vax. I've got his

medical file here, just can't think of it on the top

of my head.

By the time my daughter was born, I've read a LOT on

certain vaccines. My husband has asthma (as does the

majority of his family.) He and his brothers/sisters

were all breastfed for many years and all ate organic

foods, lived in dry climate, etc. Statistically

speaking, he wasn't supposed to get asthma but I feel

it was the DTP vaccine because of what I read and our

nephew got the DTP vaccine, had a BAD reaction to it

and then developed asthma shortly thereafter. I think

that if you have the susceptability to something, the

vaccines can sometimes bring it on and I think that's

what happened with his family. So, the DTP and DTaP

were out for us.

Now my doctor is trying to push the DT for them. Is

this very necessary? I know if the child is bitten by

another child who has tetanus or if they cut

themselves on some old rusty thing they have a chance

of getting it, but when I was 5 I stepped on a rusty

nail that went thru my foot. I went to the doctor and

they soaked my foot and then gave me a tetanus shot

and I was already vaccinated for that...

So, that's it for now, I guess. We do extended

breastfeeding, we eat organically, locally and

wholely. My husband works for Conservation

International and conservation/energy efficiency is a

big thing for us. I'm not into using chemicals for

anything (which is another reason why I don't want it

injected into my little babes.) I'm hoping I can find

a good naturopath or even a homeopath in the area here

but most don't get covered by insurance.

Speak soon and looking forward to the answers to my

questions!

__________________________________________________

July 19, 2002

hi linda,

Which state are you in?Check out the bookmarks on the list website

and you should be able to find the specifics for your state laws.

You were lied to about getting the vaxes before leaving the

hospital.The scheldule is a suggestion, there is no law that I've

heard of that says anyone has to vax at birth if they are going to

vax. If you didn't sign a consent form, they legally can't vax the

baby. Same with the doc. If that was my doc, he never would've

gotten my child out of the room without me. And if he vaxed my

child without a consent form, he would be up on charges. That is

illegal. Period.

It's harder to selectively vax than to just not vax. I know someone

who did do that because she wanted to avoid the ones that are

cultured on aborted fetal tissue.(she's catholic, and wanted nothing

to do with anything that included abortion) But it was harder for

her to do that than it would have been to just say no vaxes for

religious reasons.

Are you still in california? they allow a philosophical objection

exemption. You fill out the form and keep a copy for yourself, and

one in your childs medical file.

Religious exemptions are easier, and when people find out the stuff

in vaxes, it's not that hard to come up with a way to justify not

vaxing with religious reasons. Not that you have to explain those

reasons other than " religious " . It's unconstituional for anyone to

ask you to explain those beliefs. Knowing your rights is what is

key. You have to know the specifics of the laws in your state.

People who are supposed to know what the laws are will bully you,

and out and out lie to you about what you " have to " do. I had a doc

try to scare me into the Hep B and chicken pox vax along with a

couple of others when my daughter was 6 weeks old. He lied to me,

and I called him on it. I asked him if he had even bothered to read

the insert on the vax package. He got quite irritated at me and

informed me that he HAD been to medical school. But he never

answered my question. I told him it boiled down to one thing. If she

had a reaction, I would be the one having to deal with it. If she

got autism, or other illnesses because of vaccine damage, it would

be me taking care of her, not him, and I wasn't willing to take that

risk with her health. That the vaxes he was pushing were far more

scary to me than the diseases they supposedly protect people from.

And that the chances of a reaction were more likely than the child

getting the disease. Then he started talking about " crack pot

websites " I asked him what he thought of the CDC and World Health

Organization websites.(very provax) That that was where I got my

numbers for the numbers of people who get and die from the diseases

he was wanting to vax my child against. I compared that to the

numbers on the vax inserts and stuff I found at the Vaers website.

But if you look it up and do the reasearch, you will probably figure

out that almost all the vaxes are scarier than the diseases. I have

also decided to avoid docs for all of us unless we are sick. We dont

do well baby/child visits, less hassle that way.

Nisha

> Hi all!

>

> I'm new to the group here and am looking forward to

> reviewing the posts for news on vaccinesto our appointment, we

> expressed to the pediatrician that we didn't want to

> vax and wanted to wait until we read more. He

> literally took our son and vaccinated him against our

> will. We left that office and never returned.

July 19, 2002

thanks for the emails! By the way, I'm in MD now.

> 5. Re: 's intro

> From: " nishamartin "

> <nishamartin@...>

> 9. Re: 's intro

> From: " " <whaleto@...>

__________________________________________________

July 22, 2002

curious about others in california.....

i know that cali has the philosophical exemption but i am wondering what cali

residents do regarding not vaccinating their children. is it best to have

something typed up and notarized? i know that is what is recommended with

some states that only have religious and medical exemptions. i originally

planned to fill out some form from public health and have it notarized but

then i spoke with a mother in cali who never bothered with doing that so i

chose to follow her path and did nothing.

i stay at home with my 2yr old and i just chose to avoid seeing any doctors

all together, which eliminated unwanted pressure to vaccinate. i am wondering

what would arise if i had to take him to the emergency room for any reason.

would it be better to have documentation stating no vaccines allowed for my

child?

thanks for any input!

stacy

July 22, 2002

hi linda!

where are you located in cali?

stacy, sacramento

July 23, 2002

At 01:33 AM 07/23/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>curious about others in california.....

>

>i know that cali has the philosophical exemption but i am wondering what

cali

>residents do regarding not vaccinating their children. is it best to have

>something typed up and notarized? i know that is what is recommended with

>some states that only have religious and medical exemptions. i originally

>planned to fill out some form from public health and have it notarized but

>then i spoke with a mother in cali who never bothered with doing that so i

>chose to follow her path and did nothing.

> i stay at home with my 2yr old and i just chose to avoid seeing any doctors

>all together, which eliminated unwanted pressure to vaccinate. i am

wondering

>what would arise if i had to take him to the emergency room for any reason.

>would it be better to have documentation stating no vaccines allowed for my

>child?

>

>thanks for any input!

>stacy

There is NO law that you have to vaccinated to live, but then you have

child protective services interfering everywhere.

But it is so common not to vax in Calif - espec the north, that it usually

isn't a problem.

If you have to go to an ER, if they ask you about vaxs, you just say they

are taken care of, or something vague like that.

Don't even get into it with them. If they try to push tetanus, refuse, and

then take some time to think carefully about it if you haven't decided

already. Nothing has to be done in a few minutes.

Practice what you will say and do.

Or you can just be honest and say we don't vaccinate, full stop, period.

And if they give you a hard time you just say it is my choice. But better

not to be confrontive so you'll see CPS. Better to be vague in my opinion.

Sheri

>

July 24, 2002

thanks sheri!

i am just wondering about those occasion where you leave your child with

another caregiver and some tragedy occurs requiring a visit to the ER.if that

ever happened, i thought it would be better to have a document notarized

declining vaccination, but i get what you are saying about being vague.i

asked you before about rhogam too and i received several responses but i

think my husband may have deleted it. are you opposed to rhogam as well? i

was in the process of educating myself about vaccines and had decided against

vaccinating my son when i received the rhogam. for some reason i did put 2

and 2 together and realize that it was in the same category with vaccines and

contained thimerosal as well! i need to really research it in the future

because i am rh- and plan to eventually give birth again some day.

thanks again!

stacy

July 25, 2002

Bayer makes a mercury-free RhoGam shot, its called WinRo, but is *very*

expensive. Last June (2001) I was quoted $800 per shot by my pharmacist. I

didn't have insurance, so went with the standard mercury filled shot.

(after my son was born though, I refused to have the shot before delivery

and before even knowing his blood type).

www.ChestnutHillCurlies.com

Re: Re: 's intro

> thanks sheri!

>

> i am just wondering about those occasion where you leave your child with

> another caregiver and some tragedy occurs requiring a visit to the ER.if

that

> ever happened, i thought it would be better to have a document notarized

> declining vaccination, but i get what you are saying about being vague.i

> asked you before about rhogam too and i received several responses but i

> think my husband may have deleted it. are you opposed to rhogam as well? i

> was in the process of educating myself about vaccines and had decided

against

> vaccinating my son when i received the rhogam. for some reason i did put 2

> and 2 together and realize that it was in the same category with vaccines

and

> contained thimerosal as well! i need to really research it in the future

> because i am rh- and plan to eventually give birth again some day.

>

> thanks again!

> stacy

>

December 31, 2004

>Hi!

>I'm , and I'm learning about fermented things. I tried store

>bought Kimchi and liked it if anyone has a good " mild " recipe to try.

>I'm not real sure about some of this stuff since I don't know what to

>look for when making it. It's a little like scary chemistry. I have

>been using S. Fallons book for a year now and have read Jordan Rubin.

>I live in NE metro area of Atlanta, Ga. I look forward to learning a

>lot from you guys. Take care, and happy New Year!

To make " mild: ... don't add red pepper! Mind you I LOVE red pepper,

but it is hot! Also take it easy on ginger. You can start out with

just plain Napa and salt, which is what a lot of Korean kimchi's

start out as.

I sprinkle (non-iodized) salt on my cabbage, let it wilt, then cut it

and pound it, add some water and salt if it doesn't taste mildly

salty, and a bit of vinegar or old kimchi juice. The latter is to

make it mildly acidic, which jumpstarts the process. I don't use

whey or any culture medium: napa has it's own bacteria.

For a writup see:

http://f3.grp.fs.com/v1/QCDWQRcjiV1wrFXvw01HcWWbE3oiIhLLuhKvOm1dnf6lMSRIggm\

wuoSJgktdX5jqLAXIgIH_9BEVSd4yl90/Recipes-Condiments/kimchi.pdf

(if you can't download it, write me privately and I'll send it).

Heidi Jean

January 1, 2005

A much shorter :-) link for Heidi's kimchi writeup is:

nutrition/files/

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

January 5, 2005

Tried this link and it still wont down load! A much shorter :-) link for

Heidi's kimchi write up is:

nutrition/files/

Vona

May 30, 2005

Hi thank you for your thoughtful reply and for making me feel

welcome. My son came home last night and had a

major meltdown. He was gone camping with his friend since friday evening

and forgot to take his meds. He is moody, irritible, restless, his hands

are 'ticcing' (I don't know what else to call this) again with a major

attitude directed towards me (very defiant). It's really not like him to

act like this, so it

almost makes me wonder if he started doing drugs while he was gone, except I

know that is impossible, because he hates even cigarette using, and he was

at an

AA campout.....I don't think he would ever use alcohol even (he is

anti-drugs, including alcohol). So, then I wonder if the gabitril he is on

is causing the problems he is having. I am very worried that he forgot to

take his medicine for that many days - it scares me. He does not have a

doctor managing his meds currently. His appointment is w/new pdoc is

Wednesday.

You asked if there was a change in his meds from Sept to Jan, and this was

the deal he was started on Gabitril in August 2003, the dosage was gradually

raised. Strattera was added in December 2003. In late Jan.2004, he began

to have increased mood cycling due to strattera, and I think it was in late

Feb.2004 he had a mixed bipolar episode which was medication induced. Still

the doctor refused to take him off of the medication, saying it was caused

by " stress in the home. " And, my son continued to stay agitated and ill. I

was confused and had no help and did not no what to do. My son was afraid

to adjust the medication on his own, becuase the same pdoc had told him if

he did not take the medicine he had prescribed for him every single day, he

may have a seizure (I was not aware he had told him this). My son was

frightened obviously and confused. He liked that doctor, until he refused

to take him off of strattera or help him when he was doing so badly and

feeling so sick. The pdoc would not listen to me at all, and my son could

not speak for himself, because he was too ill by then. Quite the situation.

This is how his phobia of doctors developed that I told you about. And,

that was only a little over a year ago.

what happened then was I finally got him a new pdoc who took him off of

strattera, and he immediately began to do better. That was last summer. We

were able to breathe a sigh of relief, especially my son, who spent the

summer doing boy things, like going to the skate park with his friends, and

not worrying about this stuff, thankfully, as it should be. Then, in

September, his symptoms quickly changed, worsened and intensified, into

tics, etc., that I described.............The place I was taking him too at

the time, I didn't realize was the same place as the first place, just in a

different town, all tied together (takes DSHS, only place in town we could

go besides, in whole county w/ a pdoc)........I think they were concerned I

was going to sue or something??? about the strattera prior.........but his

new therapist saw him a total of 3 times and contually tried to close his

file w/ a different 'excuse' each time, saying he was doing better, he

didn't need a pdoc, we were not consistent or committed to his treatment

(that was the real kicker), all in violation of his client rights I now know

after getting an advocate and filing a greivance. Anyway, I was not aware

at his last appt, really, and I did expect treatment for my son, who was not

doing well, despite what both his tdoc and pdoc said (unfortunately), and I

did not sign the papers they tried to make me sign (closing his file). He

has been on gabitril only this entire time, except for the short disatrous

stint w/strattera, which made him much worse. I don't know if that had

permanent affect or if it is the gabitril doing this to him, or the

disorder(s).................His symptoms waxes and wanes a lot. He usually

doesn't forget to take it for that long anymore.

In Sept 2004, in response to severe distraction, disorientation,

irritiability, motor tics, and mental obsesssions, and a personal request by

me to change his medication beginning with a change to a more first line

treatment for bipolar disorder (such as Depakote), she instead increased his

gabitril at that time by 4mg, and never saw him again............they sent

me a letter closing his file in Jan.2004, after missing 3 apptointments (she

was out of the office for months, and then quit her job). OK, so in

retrospect, I never should've accepted that. I should have been more

persistent. But, I did not know what was going to happen. I didn't know

they were terminate his treatment and he would not see another pdoc until

June 1, 2005. That's how long it has taken the agency to respond to my

greivance. So, my son is still incorrectly diagnosed and not properly

treated, after all this time, and getting worse by the day.

I am trying to keep an open mind here for this appointment, but I just don't

see how it's going to be much better than our previous experience. What can

I do?

Am I supposed to tell the pdoc what his diagnosis is? What medication I

want him on? Or what?

I will try what you suggested about calling the state Mental Health Dept.

I live in WA state.

Thanks again your support, understanding, kindness, and encouragement

means more than you will ever know.

It's helped me get through a very hard day.

p.s. as for the " stress in the home " deal, it's like what came first the

chicken or the egg..........I think if one can get proper treatment for a

neurological condition, and empathetic caring support (not this projecting

point the finger, blame the victim, protect the system at all costs

dysfuntion). That's why I think support groups of peers work so well. We

have empathy, where others who have not been there cannot have this quality.

For me this ingredient is necessary for a healing and loving supportive

environment.

Of course we have stress in the home. If we didn't have stress in the home,

we wouldn't be human. Any family living under these conditions I think has

stress in the home. Do people who don't have stress in the home go to

mental health providers for help and support? It's ridiculous. The

biggest stress for me was parenting a child with an inadequately treated

neurological condition and at the time a baby (she was 1 then, she is 2 1/2

now), and a 12 year old, because the 14 yr.old, the one who needed medical

attention, because of his condition (by no fault of his, or mine), is at

times unable to control his impulses, his moods, his behaviors, and this has

a profound affect on our entire family, especially the two younger siblings,

and the stress is huge when he is not doing well (mood wise).

When the support level goes down from those who are supposed to be helping

us, it increased tenfold, thank you very much, and then we would've been

better off not getting any help at all. It's shameful.

What if that were how they treated families who had disorders of the skin?

or the stomach? or AIDS? or cancer? or diabetes? We would not stand for

it.

Hi again , I replied earlier but wanted to comment on some more

of your post.

You wrote: ...and everywhere I turn someone is criticizing me it

would seem, either for placing my son on medication, taking him to a

psychiatrist, or 'labeling' him....

**As hard as it is, try to ignore them as YOU know you are doing the

right thing. They just don't see it. Might have missed this in your

post, but how does dad feel about it?

You wrote: ...and then they blame us - the family, the mother, the

parents, stress in the home...., and then you are actually labeled a

bad mother....it's " stress in the home " , that is the stamp we

received.

**Oh, you're not the first here to hear that!! But, again, pay it no

attention. I think the thing is - and don't know if I'll word my

thoughts very well right now - that stress does agitate lots of

things/disorders - OCD, anxiety, tics.... And lessening stress can

help relieve some things, OCD ease up maybe or whatever (note I

said " maybe " on that OCD thing!). But it's not *the* cause with all

OCD and doctors/therapists should not dwell on " it's bad parenting,

parents not getting along or sibling problems, etc. " Oh, I don't

mind if they go over ways to de-stress/relax, better ways to

handle/avoid outbursts or meltdowns, ways to NOT stress things in the

home. But with OCD they need to work on HOW to control/boss back OCD

and use methods to help gain control, lessen OCD anxiety, get rid of

some obsession, " whatever " and not dwell on home life as a " cause. "

My OCD son has a twin (not identical) and the 2 don't get along well,

aren't friends but aren't enemies and the other twin really, really

does " get to " my OCD son. (Not so much now that they are older - 16 -

but more when younger.) And I just know the psychologist (who was

also a friend, since he was at our local mental health center where I

work) thought that the stress/agitation my OCD son () felt

with (twin) was a problem. Like it was the " home life " and so

on. And, as stated above, I wouldn't mind if he went over with

how to not let get to him, how to handle situations,

whatever. But I really, really don't think the psych *understood*

OCD actually. He would tell to work on compulsions not

lasting so long, trying to shorten them. But just from some things

said, I think the psych thought it was more " home life " than OCD that

was the problem. I might be wrong, just guessing a bit there. But

it was OCD driving insane, me insane, his brothers fed up

with it, etc.

OK, rambled a bit there. But you're right in not buying into

the " stress in the home " as THE problem.

You wrote: from September to January he suffered from constant

complex motor tics. This was a new thing. He was highly distracted

and disoriented also. He gets confused when we go out sometimes. He

has severe social anxiety. and panic attacks.

**Was there any medication change at the time (new med or dosage

change)?

With the clothes thing and all - there can be so many variables there

as to that. Regular teen thing ( just FINALLY got a hair cut, I

can see his eyes again!) or depression or some sensory issues that

have come up. had a few sensory issues when younger, wouldn't

wear certain clothes, hated the feel of the material. My OCD son

(who also has Aspergers Syndrome) likes only plain t-shirts, doesn't

want any words/pictures on the. My other 2 sons HAVE to have

something on t-shirts, won't wear plain ones. used to wear

jeans all summer, didn't like shorts. Also he went thru a summer or

two with long sleeves, as it felt right to him. I thought at least

others can see ONE twin dressing seasonably (), it's not MOM

who is making him wear that stuff in 90+ degrees! But depression can

leave people not caring about appearance. OCD can cause some clothes

things too.

I hope your upcoming appt goes well! New psychiatrist or new

therapist??

I mentioned earlier your state Mental Health department. Call them

if you feel your son is not getting better (you've tried for 2 years

now!!) and perhaps they will have your local center refer you to

someone with actual experience. That way, Medicaid should still pay

MAYBE, if billed through the mental health center. Just a thought.

May 30, 2005

,

I don't really have anything to add, or any advice. I just wanted to say how

sorry I am that you are dealing with such incompetent doctors. If you didn't

have " stress in the home, " I'd think that would cause it!

P. in NJ

<kthielen@...> wrote: