Re: Re: Considering Private School

[Guest guest]

Tim, I've gone through 2 advocates and am on my 3rd. This one is fantastic. The first one was a Dr. who wasn't afraid to let you know how highly she thought of herself. She ended up telling me that I would need to mend fences with the school to get what I wanted. She got caught up in the feeling of superiority with her credentials. In the end she did nothing for me but give me a big bill. I got rid of her.  Next one came from a recommendation of parents in my community. She was a total weenie. At the meeting--with 11 school personnel--she totally deferred to the head bitch of the team. That meeting was a disaster. I called her after and told her how embarrassed I was by her lack of backbone. She told me not to pay my bill and I didn't. But, I would have refused to pay her anyways. I should have evaluated the people who gave me her name. I should have gauged how well they knew the iep process before I just agreed to go with someone who was recommended by another parent. My lesson learned with these advocates is that I was so desperate for " professional " help that I took the first one that seemed good enough. With more thought and perspective, I would have weeded those two out of the running from the get go. I would have looked for the advocate who had no ties to public schools (the dr. was a former teacher) and for a person who actually knew the local regulations and how they would help my case.  

With my 3rd advocate, I am so impressed. She happens to also be a parent with an older son on the spectrum. This woman knows the state regulations as well as IDEA. She has told me, though, that I too, need to read up on my state regs as well as read about how to write goals. She wants me actively involved in the process. I met her through a parent support online site. I was asking the group a lot of questions and she sent me some legal briefs to read from due process hearings. We hit it off from there.

Do you have any local parent support groups? Can you solicit advice on your situation with your son? You didn't tell me if you got your hands on a copy of the criteria for the gifted program. I would absolutely do that. The other little interesting detail that I recommend all parents do is to file a FERPA request. This gives you access and/or copies of all of your son's school records that you probably are not even aware of. I did one and found observations that the school never told me about. I ended up filing to have those inaccurate (and some total lies) records removed from my son's records. When it comes down to it you will have to start documenting every interaction you have with the school about your child. You will need to make MFR (memo for the record) on any discussion you have with the school and then request that your MFR be placed in your son's record.

As far as your son's specific case, I wish I could give you better guidance. What I can tell you is that if you discuss any issues with your son outside of an IEP meeting, it will be as if it never happened. Problems have to be documented for the record at his IEP meeting's to make anything happen.  First, though, you have to find out what your options are when you disagree with the TES placement. I wish you could find a parent whose been through this to give you guidance.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Tim Kay <timothyskay@...> wrote:

 

,

 

We are in Southwestern Pennsylvania. TES stands for Therapeutic Emotional Support. 's classroom is a TES classroom. We do have an advocate that attended the last meeting with me. The longer that the meeting dragged on, the more the advocate was drawn into what the IEP team was pitching. I don't know if she will be at the next meeting or not. And I really don't care one way or the other. When I told my son's Behaviorist that recommended this advocate, that she offered almost no support. He said he will talk to her. She is the only Parent Advocate in our county. And as far as I am concerned she can pound sand.

 

Tim

 

 

: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:19:06 PMSubject: ( ) Re: Considering Private School

 

Tim, what state are you in and what is TES? The school said your son did not meet the criteria for the gifted program, so did you ask for a copy of a paper copy of the criteria for the gifted program? Check it out for yourself.

As far as your iep team goes, they are all very similar in that they essentially exist to deny problems and services. Since you are considering private schools, I would tell you I think you have only 2 options:

1. Go the private route and save you and your wife this exact type of headache and heartache that you WILL endure on a daily and weekly and monthly basis. If you could find a private specialized school I would say, " Jackpot " and go for it. Granted, no school is a panacea for our kids, but it sounds like you could do a lot better somewhere else.

Option 2:2.) Declare war and go into battle mode. From my experience, schools(teachers, principal's, staff members) will cover each other's asses and

you will almost never be in agreement with the rest of the " iep team " members. Your stress levels will alternate from high to " he's gonna blow " You and your spouse will constantly or almost always argue about neglecting the other kids and each other. When you're not arguing you're both asleep. Your lives will be forever changed in a way that you'll start to resent parents " that have it good " because they have nt kids and have no idea of what were going through on a regular basis. Things will only, maybe, hopefully improve if you or your wife are willing to take on your son's education like you would a full time job. My opinion.

>> My 8 year old 3rd grader with Asperger's was recently reevaluated, by my

> request. My

wife and I don't feel that he needs to stay in a TES classroom next > year. The so call IEP Team disagrees, stating that is not ready to leave > the TES classroom. Because he still needs the support that it offers.

> > > The lady that administered the test to wrote the following paragraph to > conclude the report. > > > demonstrates few academic needs, as he is a quick learner and his skills

> are well advanced. However, he needs a learning environment with a smaller > number of students; one that is highly structured: one that has much opportunity > for individual attention, monitoring, and redirection; one in which teacher and

> staff understand his behavioral and academic characteristics and needs and knows > how to redirect him; one that does not overwhelm him with behavioral and > academic expectations beyond his ability to cope;

and one that focuses on > teaching him self regulation to be academically productive at the levels at > which he is capable, and that teaches him the socially interactive skills to be > fully included when the team feels that he is ready.

> > did very well on these test and ended up with a Full Scale IQ of 121. My > wife and I wanted placed in a gifted class, because we felt that they were > ignoring his academic needs to focus on social skills and behavioral

> development. But meanwhile he is growing bored and his bad behaviors have > increased. no longer enjoys going to school. He has started refusing to do > work and challenge his teacher. He had made comments to her like " This is the

> crappiest seven hours of my day " . The IEP team feels that does not have > time to get bored, that he has a very structured day. As if structure prevents >

boredom. > > > currently leaves the TES classroom twice a day. Once for a 4th grade > advanced math class, and later for a 3rd grade science class. 's TES teacher > observed him in his math class, without being aware. The following comments

> were included in the reevaluation report. > > > was observed by the TES teacher while was with the regular fourth > grade Math class. The teacher stood in the hall and observed through the

> doorway. stayed in his seat. He would look out the window and appear not > paying attention. When called upon would respond correctly. He looked out > the window four times for at least forty five seconds each time. He was able to

> pay attention to the teacher and give correct responses. may have stared > for longer periods of time, but was prompted by the aide to pay attention.

> > > That to me proves my point that he is bored. He does not have to follow the > teachers every movement in the classroom. He simply needs to listen, so that he > can respond correctly. He is not being challenged. This is a 4th grade math

> class, and is a 3rd grader. He is capable of much more. But when his > boredom causes him to act up, or distract the class, they document this and > claim it is proof that he is not ready to return to a regular education

> classroom, because his behaviors are not what they should be. > > > The psychologist that administered testing made the following comments. > > Although eye contact was limited ( looked around the room as he was

> speaking), was pleasant and engaging, answered informal questions about his > interest, and conversed appropriately. He expressed himself in a mature

manner > and was attentive and cooperative throughout the individual assessment. He > seemed to especially enjoy working on tasks that he found challenging (commented > " I am very intelligent " ) and was able to maintain mental concentration even when

> he tired of sitting and became fidgety. He refused several offers to take a > break and was persistent in solving difficult problems. > > > So, there you have it. If he is challenged he stays focused. If he is not, then

> some of the things that we have seen is that he will look out the window, > reflect sunlight around the room with his dry erase board, hum, or make noises > with his mouth, tap pencils, or doodle in his notebook.

> > Now to my point in all of this. Remember I stated in the beginning that had > a full scale IQ of 121. Well, my wife and I wanted to be place in a gifted >

classroom, so that he would be challenged, and he would once again enjoy going > to school, and not feel that it is the crappiest seven hours of his day. We want > school to be fun for him, at least going his elementary years. But according to

> what I learned at the meeting, does not qualify for placement in gifted > classroom because his IQ is below 130. > > > So, the only change that is being recommended is that leave his TES

> classroom for another class, yet to be determined. That will be decided upon at > the next IEP meeting, next week. This will mean that he is out of his TES > classroom pretty much the entire school day. But next year is my concern. The

> IEP team recommends more of the same. I say it is not working, because it is > causing the problems it is to be preventing. > > > He will not be put in a gifted program, because

he does not qualify. So, I am > going to start looking at a private school near us. It has low enrollment, and > the number of students per class are not more than 15. Often times it is less > than 10. Many of my questions I know will be answered by the private school when

> I contact them on Monday. But, what I need from this group is advice. Any and > all concerning what I have written here. Is private school a good idea? I don't > want to home school because then there would not be social skills learned, and

> no interaction with children his own age. The only interaction with children his > own age then would be with the kids that live in our neighborhood. And that I > feel would be counterproductive. >

> > Many of you have been through similar circumstances. What did you learn from it, > that you could share? Something, that might save my wife and I a

lot of time and > frustration. One thing that I don't understand in all of this is why the IEP > team cannot see that bad behaviors can be caused by the student not being > challenged. Is it simply because they don't want to admit they are wrong? Or is

> it that they truly don't know what else they can do?> > Tim>

[Guest guest]

I found a similar private school with classes of 15 students or less (my Aspie has 13) and we have been very happy. The teacher provides appropriate accomadations with all her school work and the school has a dining program with built in social skills training for the whole school. My daughter doesn't have any "true" friends, but she feels accepted and no longer complains that she has to play alone. It is truly a community that we are a part of and as a military family on our 5th school in 6 years it is what we all needed. Hope it works out for you!

,

We are in Southwestern Pennsylvania. TES stands for Therapeutic Emotional Support. 's classroom is a TES classroom. We do have an advocate that attended the last meeting with me. The longer that the meeting dragged on, the more the advocate was drawn into what the IEP team was pitching. I don't know if she will be at the next meeting or not. And I really don't care one way or the other. When I told my son's Behaviorist that recommended this advocate, that she offered almost no support. He said he will talk to her. She is the only Parent Advocate in our county. And as far as I am concerned she can pound sand.

Tim

: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:19:06 PMSubject: ( ) Re: Considering Private School

Tim, what state are you in and what is TES? The school said your son did not meet the criteria for the gifted program, so did you ask for a copy of a paper copy of the criteria for the gifted program? Check it out for yourself.As far as your iep team goes, they are all very similar in that they essentially exist to deny problems and services. Since you are considering private schools, I would tell you I think you have only 2 options:1. Go the private route and save you and your wife this exact type of headache and heartache that you WILL endure on a daily and weekly and monthly basis. If you could find a private specialized school I would say, "Jackpot" and go for it. Granted, no school is a panacea for our kids, but it sounds like you could do a lot better somewhere else.Option 2:2.) Declare war and go into battle mode. From my experience, schools(teachers, principal's, staff members) will cover each other's asses and

you will almost never be in agreement with the rest of the "iep team" members. Your stress levels will alternate from high to "he's gonna blow" You and your spouse will constantly or almost always argue about neglecting the other kids and each other. When you're not arguing you're both asleep. Your lives will be forever changed in a way that you'll start to resent parents "that have it good" because they have nt kids and have no idea of what were going through on a regular basis. Things will only, maybe, hopefully improve if you or your wife are willing to take on your son's education like you would a full time job. My opinion.>> My 8 year old 3rd grader with Asperger's was recently reevaluated, by my >

request. My

wife and I don't feel that he needs to stay in a TES classroom next > year. The so call IEP Team disagrees, stating that is not ready to leave > the TES classroom. Because he still needs the support that it offers. > > > The lady that administered the test to wrote the following paragraph to > conclude the report. > > > demonstrates few academic needs, as he is a quick learner and his skills > are well advanced. However, he needs a learning environment with a smaller > number of students; one that is highly structured: one that has much opportunity > for individual attention, monitoring, and redirection; one in which teacher and > staff understand his behavioral and academic characteristics and needs and knows > how to redirect him; one that does not overwhelm him with behavioral and > academic expectations beyond his ability to cope;

and one that focuses on > teaching him self regulation to be academically productive at the levels at > which he is capable, and that teaches him the socially interactive skills to be > fully included when the team feels that he is ready.> > did very well on these test and ended up with a Full Scale IQ of 121. My > wife and I wanted placed in a gifted class, because we felt that they were > ignoring his academic needs to focus on social skills and behavioral > development. But meanwhile he is growing bored and his bad behaviors have > increased. no longer enjoys going to school. He has started refusing to do > work and challenge his teacher. He had made comments to her like "This is the > crappiest seven hours of my day". The IEP team feels that does not have > time to get bored, that he has a very structured day. As if structure prevents >

boredom. > > > currently leaves the TES classroom twice a day. Once for a 4th grade > advanced math class, and later for a 3rd grade science class. 's TES teacher > observed him in his math class, without being aware. The following comments > were included in the reevaluation report. > > > was observed by the TES teacher while was with the regular fourth > grade Math class. The teacher stood in the hall and observed through the > doorway. stayed in his seat. He would look out the window and appear not > paying attention. When called upon would respond correctly. He looked out > the window four times for at least forty five seconds each time. He was able to > pay attention to the teacher and give correct responses. may have stared > for longer periods of time, but was prompted by the aide to pay attention.

> > > That to me proves my point that he is bored. He does not have to follow the > teachers every movement in the classroom. He simply needs to listen, so that he > can respond correctly. He is not being challenged. This is a 4th grade math > class, and is a 3rd grader. He is capable of much more. But when his > boredom causes him to act up, or distract the class, they document this and > claim it is proof that he is not ready to return to a regular education > classroom, because his behaviors are not what they should be. > > > The psychologist that administered testing made the following comments. > > Although eye contact was limited ( looked around the room as he was > speaking), was pleasant and engaging, answered informal questions about his > interest, and conversed appropriately. He expressed himself in a mature

manner > and was attentive and cooperative throughout the individual assessment. He > seemed to especially enjoy working on tasks that he found challenging (commented > "I am very intelligent") and was able to maintain mental concentration even when > he tired of sitting and became fidgety. He refused several offers to take a > break and was persistent in solving difficult problems. > > > So, there you have it. If he is challenged he stays focused. If he is not, then > some of the things that we have seen is that he will look out the window, > reflect sunlight around the room with his dry erase board, hum, or make noises > with his mouth, tap pencils, or doodle in his notebook.> > Now to my point in all of this. Remember I stated in the beginning that had > a full scale IQ of 121. Well, my wife and I wanted to be place in a gifted >

classroom, so that he would be challenged, and he would once again enjoy going > to school, and not feel that it is the crappiest seven hours of his day. We want > school to be fun for him, at least going his elementary years. But according to > what I learned at the meeting, does not qualify for placement in gifted > classroom because his IQ is below 130. > > > So, the only change that is being recommended is that leave his TES > classroom for another class, yet to be determined. That will be decided upon at > the next IEP meeting, next week. This will mean that he is out of his TES > classroom pretty much the entire school day. But next year is my concern. The > IEP team recommends more of the same. I say it is not working, because it is > causing the problems it is to be preventing. > > > He will not be put in a gifted program, because

he does not qualify. So, I am > going to start looking at a private school near us. It has low enrollment, and > the number of students per class are not more than 15. Often times it is less > than 10. Many of my questions I know will be answered by the private school when > I contact them on Monday. But, what I need from this group is advice. Any and > all concerning what I have written here. Is private school a good idea? I don't > want to home school because then there would not be social skills learned, and > no interaction with children his own age. The only interaction with children his > own age then would be with the kids that live in our neighborhood. And that I > feel would be counterproductive. > > > Many of you have been through similar circumstances. What did you learn from it, > that you could share? Something, that might save my wife and I a

lot of time and > frustration. One thing that I don't understand in all of this is why the IEP > team cannot see that bad behaviors can be caused by the student not being > challenged. Is it simply because they don't want to admit they are wrong? Or is > it that they truly don't know what else they can do?> > Tim>

[Guest guest]

I have an IEP meeting tomorrow at 's school. The only thing that is likely to happen, is that they will place him in another regular education classroom. Probably for social studies. With that he will be out of his Therapeutic Emotional Support classroom for nearly the entire school day.

He is in the 3rd grade and currently leaves his TES classroom for a 4th grade Math class, and a 3rd grade science class.

While this is a big step. I feel that this should have been done during the previous school year. My wife and I are considering a Private school for next year. This private school had an open house this morning and I went and checked the place out. I think my son would do very well there. The problem is will they accept him, and can we afford this school?

Here is what I need to know. My son is transported to another school district, so he can be apart of a TES classroom. Our local school district does not have the services that my Aspie son needs. So they pay to transport him to a neighboring school district to be included in this TES classroom. They also provide him with 240 minutes a month of individual and group social work services.

So, they are providing these services for my son because of his diagnoses of Aspergers. And they are transporting him to where the services are available, because they are not available locally. If my wife and I choose to put our son in the private school, are we then turning our backs on the services? Or are they obligated to provide these services? If our sons needs can be met at the private school is the local school district obligated to pay for the private school since the services he needs are not available in that district?

Or are we forced to continue transporting him across the county to the other school district, or provide for his needs at our own expense at the private school?

We like some of the things about where are son is currently going, but not the whole package. And my wife and I both feel that they are not doing enough academically, and he is bored. I think that they have done very well with his social skills, and controlling his behaviors. Someday's he is a model student, and according to his math teacher, he goes above and beyond the expectations put on him. But on other days, you would not think it was the same child, his behavior is very bad.

I think that the cause of this bad behavior is two fold. First, at times he is not challenged and he gets bored and acts up. And other times it is because he is frustrated. He is frustrated for at least a couple of reasons. He knows that he is different, and does not understand why he does not go to the school that the other kids on the block go to. And like a lot of Aspie's he is very motivated by learning, and prides himself on how smart he is.

This is a problem both because, he can come off as arrogant or cocky. And people will not want to be around him. And it is also a problem because he cannot handle making a mistake, or giving the wrong answer in class. Especially, if another child then gives the correct answer, he feels that he has been belittled, or shamed. And this causes him to express himself often in an improper way, that might distract the class. The teacher might feel that he is attention seeking, or is immature for his age. They often think this because the reaction my not always be immediate. Sometimes he might stew over it and let it build, rather than just move on.

Anybody have any thought on all of this?

Tim

From: mbaet <mbaet@...> Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 11:21:22 PMSubject: Re: ( ) Re: Considering Private School

I found a similar private school with classes of 15 students or less (my Aspie has 13) and we have been very happy. The teacher provides appropriate accomadations with all her school work and the school has a dining program with built in social skills training for the whole school. My daughter doesn't have any "true" friends, but she feels accepted and no longer complains that she has to play alone. It is truly a community that we are a part of and as a military family on our 5th school in 6 years it is what we all needed. Hope it works out for you!

,

We are in Southwestern Pennsylvania. TES stands for Therapeutic Emotional Support. 's classroom is a TES classroom. We do have an advocate that attended the last meeting with me. The longer that the meeting dragged on, the more the advocate was drawn into what the IEP team was pitching. I don't know if she will be at the next meeting or not. And I really don't care one way or the other. When I told my son's Behaviorist that recommended this advocate, that she offered almost no support. He said he will talk to her. She is the only Parent Advocate in our county. And as far as I am concerned she can pound sand.

Tim

: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:19:06 PMSubject: ( ) Re: Considering Private School

Tim, what state are you in and what is TES? The school said your son did not meet the criteria for the gifted program, so did you ask for a copy of a paper copy of the criteria for the gifted program? Check it out for yourself.As far as your iep team goes, they are all very similar in that they essentially exist to deny problems and services. Since you are considering private schools, I would tell you I think you have only 2 options:1. Go the private route and save you and your wife this exact type of headache and heartache that you WILL endure on a daily and weekly and monthly basis. If you could find a private specialized school I would say, "Jackpot" and go for it. Granted, no school is a panacea for our kids, but it sounds like you could do a lot better somewhere else.Option 2:2.) Declare war and go into battle mode. From my experience, schools(teachers, principal's, staff members) will cover each other's asses and

you will almost never be in agreement with the rest of the "iep team" members. Your stress levels will alternate from high to "he's gonna blow" You and your spouse will constantly or almost always argue about neglecting the other kids and each other. When you're not arguing you're both asleep. Your lives will be forever changed in a way that you'll start to resent parents "that have it good" because they have nt kids and have no idea of what were going through on a regular basis. Things will only, maybe, hopefully improve if you or your wife are willing to take on your son's education like you would a full time job. My opinion.>> My 8 year old 3rd grader with Asperger's was recently reevaluated, by my > request. My wife and I don't feel that he needs to stay in a TES classroom next > year. The so call IEP Team disagrees,

stating that is not ready to leave > the TES classroom. Because he still needs the support that it offers. > > > The lady that administered the test to wrote the following paragraph to > conclude the report. > > > demonstrates few academic needs, as he is a quick learner and his skills > are well advanced. However, he needs a learning environment with a smaller > number of students; one that is highly structured: one that has much opportunity > for individual attention, monitoring, and redirection; one in which teacher and > staff understand his behavioral and academic characteristics and needs and knows > how to redirect him; one that does not overwhelm him with behavioral and > academic expectations beyond his ability to cope; and one that focuses on > teaching him self regulation to be academically productive at the levels at

> which he is capable, and that teaches him the socially interactive skills to be > fully included when the team feels that he is ready.> > did very well on these test and ended up with a Full Scale IQ of 121. My > wife and I wanted placed in a gifted class, because we felt that they were > ignoring his academic needs to focus on social skills and behavioral > development. But meanwhile he is growing bored and his bad behaviors have > increased. no longer enjoys going to school. He has started refusing to do > work and challenge his teacher. He had made comments to her like "This is the > crappiest seven hours of my day". The IEP team feels that does not have > time to get bored, that he has a very structured day. As if structure prevents > boredom. > > > currently leaves the TES classroom twice a day. Once for a 4th grade

> advanced math class, and later for a 3rd grade science class. 's TES teacher > observed him in his math class, without being aware. The following comments > were included in the reevaluation report. > > > was observed by the TES teacher while was with the regular fourth > grade Math class. The teacher stood in the hall and observed through the > doorway. stayed in his seat. He would look out the window and appear not > paying attention. When called upon would respond correctly. He looked out > the window four times for at least forty five seconds each time. He was able to > pay attention to the teacher and give correct responses. may have stared > for longer periods of time, but was prompted by the aide to pay attention. > > > That to me proves my point that he is bored. He does not have to follow the >

teachers every movement in the classroom. He simply needs to listen, so that he > can respond correctly. He is not being challenged. This is a 4th grade math > class, and is a 3rd grader. He is capable of much more. But when his > boredom causes him to act up, or distract the class, they document this and > claim it is proof that he is not ready to return to a regular education > classroom, because his behaviors are not what they should be. > > > The psychologist that administered testing made the following comments. > > Although eye contact was limited ( looked around the room as he was > speaking), was pleasant and engaging, answered informal questions about his > interest, and conversed appropriately. He expressed himself in a mature manner > and was attentive and cooperative throughout the individual assessment. He > seemed to

especially enjoy working on tasks that he found challenging (commented > "I am very intelligent") and was able to maintain mental concentration even when > he tired of sitting and became fidgety. He refused several offers to take a > break and was persistent in solving difficult problems. > > > So, there you have it. If he is challenged he stays focused. If he is not, then > some of the things that we have seen is that he will look out the window, > reflect sunlight around the room with his dry erase board, hum, or make noises > with his mouth, tap pencils, or doodle in his notebook.> > Now to my point in all of this. Remember I stated in the beginning that had > a full scale IQ of 121. Well, my wife and I wanted to be place in a gifted > classroom, so that he would be challenged, and he would once again enjoy going > to school, and not feel that

it is the crappiest seven hours of his day. We want > school to be fun for him, at least going his elementary years. But according to > what I learned at the meeting, does not qualify for placement in gifted > classroom because his IQ is below 130. > > > So, the only change that is being recommended is that leave his TES > classroom for another class, yet to be determined. That will be decided upon at > the next IEP meeting, next week. This will mean that he is out of his TES > classroom pretty much the entire school day. But next year is my concern. The > IEP team recommends more of the same. I say it is not working, because it is > causing the problems it is to be preventing. > > > He will not be put in a gifted program, because he does not qualify. So, I am > going to start looking at a private school near us. It has low enrollment, and

> the number of students per class are not more than 15. Often times it is less > than 10. Many of my questions I know will be answered by the private school when > I contact them on Monday. But, what I need from this group is advice. Any and > all concerning what I have written here. Is private school a good idea? I don't > want to home school because then there would not be social skills learned, and > no interaction with children his own age. The only interaction with children his > own age then would be with the kids that live in our neighborhood. And that I > feel would be counterproductive. > > > Many of you have been through similar circumstances. What did you learn from it, > that you could share? Something, that might save my wife and I a lot of time and > frustration. One thing that I don't understand in all of this is why the IEP > team

cannot see that bad behaviors can be caused by the student not being > challenged. Is it simply because they don't want to admit they are wrong? Or is > it that they truly don't know what else they can do?> > Tim>