depression

November 9, 1999

Hi Again April

Depression is again a side effect of PA, and I am NOT going to tell you to

either a) pull yourself together or cheer up!

However I will just give you an interesting insight, you are a walking miracle,

a mystery, an enigma, even an X file! When your 'medical team' love that phrase,

translated it means, 'its your job not mine, she is your patients not mine, I am

heading for the cafe for my morning break, then to put my head in the sand for

the rest of the day' observe you walking towards the hospital, only You have the

ability to turn educated medical people into prehistoric cavemen, as there fight

or flight caveman instinct sets in.

When I walk into the local hospital, the medical suicide rate increases, as

specialists leap from the windows in hope to get away from me. The simplest

tasks, ones they trained for as students, now become heavy burden's. For

example, I have a persistent cough, which comes on in the Autumn. I explain this

to my specialist, who produces a dish, I have to cough into it, and he takes it

away to be analysed. I return for my RESULTS, he starts to fidget and then makes

the classic incorrect statement, which he has been trained to say, just like a

repeating record, " We found nothing, your cough is fine! " The fact that I seem

to cough up BOTH lungs every morning must be a natural bodily function for every

human being, or so I am lead to believe. So what should I do, send out early

morning invitation for a coughing session? I try and remain cool, as I try to

explain to the doctor that my ageing mom does not have this coughing session

every morning, so it must be some thing! The doctor sits there and replies " Well

we found nothing " while shrugging his shoulders. So I return home, not depressed

but in astonishment at these educated people with there new modern technologies

and tell me that is it normal to cough up both lungs! I go to bed and dwell on

this new found information. I wake up the next morning, start coughing and my

mom just gives me a strange look as I gasp for air and turn purple! I then shrug

my shoulder, turn to my mom and say " Well that cure did not work either! " My mom

who is now reaching for the telephone to have me committed replies " What cure? "

I retort, " Well when the doctor shrugged his shoulders, I thought he was telling

me what I should do, so I tried shrugging my shoulders, but the cough remains! "

Love and God Bless

Gillian

Re: [ ] Information

Overlapping conditions so far:

P, PA, Spondylitis ( how do you know if it is ankylosing?) Premature Ovarian

Failure (autoimmune), Gastroesophogeal Reflux (predates PA and meds), Chronic

Sinusitis, and right now EXTREME depression bordering on suicidal...

The lack of estrogen due to the POF is also responsible for Osteopenia (bone

loss but not enough yet to classify as Osteoporosis)

I thought the Spondylitis was part of PA - is it considered separate?

For what it's worth.

April

t 12:45 AM 11/9/99 +0000, you wrote:

Hi Everyone

Can I ask you what 'overlapping' conditions you have besides PA?

I have Ankylosing Spondylitis, Systemic Lupus, Raynauds Phenomenon,

Fibromyalgia, Persistent Leucytosis[benign blood problem], Fibrocystic Breast

disease, Myeloid Hyperplasia [overproduction of myeloid cells in my bone marrow]

and High Cholesterol so far!

I would be interested to know if any other member has any of the same

overlap, or different overlaps?

Love and God Bless

Gillian

---------------------------

December 4, 1999

Dear

You do not have to apologize for anything, there's been

plenty, way to many a time that I've asked why me, what the hell did I do

wrong? I never get an answer. There's a lot of times that I don't want to

talk to anyone about it, because I feel that I'm 2nd class, I can't do the

things I want to, like teach my son to play, baseball, basketball, football,

list goes on. It is natural to feel sorry yourself. Believe me I have

thought of the other alternative, but I put that away because I still have

hope that some day they will come up with something that will help me or

cure me. I know that's a long shot but it's all I have.

We all have bad days that can stretch into months.

My Dr. is really excited about remicade, there have been 6 documented

PA people that it has been given to and they all had a 50% improvement. Of

course he did say that they may have been able to give these people sugar

pills and they would have improved. It can have some nasty side effects that

they know of because it's new. The one that concerns me the most is the

Lupus like syndrome I'll have to find out more about that before I take it.

I don't need another disease. If I do it he wants me to be in a study if

that is in a group or by myself. You have to realize that I've been on the

max treatment and I'm still going downhill, (should have been a skier Ha,

Ha, Ha) he wants me in a study because the info on what happens should be

out there for everyone, good or bad.

God am I long winded or what!!!!!! ................Just shoot me....

Any way you do not have to apolgize to anyone, if they can't

understand it they have no business being here.

Hell last night I probably pissed off a lot of people, in a

chat room, don't know if it was a bad day, the meds or if I was just being

orny.

Cheer up girl your in a small select group that has a rare disease

We are special!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dake

December 4, 1999

--- CTNATIVE@... wrote:

> I am writing to apologize, especially to

Hey -- no need to apologize to me! Besides, I've been

there too. Hope you feel better --

__________________________________________________

December 4, 1999

Dear ,

You do not need to say you are sorry. You need to take care of

yourself and your family. With all of the complaining many of us

do here you should not feel like a " big baby " either! That is

one of the things this list is for! I am very sorry to hear you

are not doing so well right now. I don't have any advice but I

will be praying for you and your family. I am glad you let us

know what is going on with you.

Lee Ann

December 5, 1999

Hi and ,

Yes, I'm sure that we all get depressed at times. My son came home from high

school the other day and said to me that he couldn't believe that I used to run

cross country and track when I was in high school. He had seen my pic. at

school, and my name is also on some sort of athletic trophy there. I can hardly

do anything now. Lifting 10 pounds can sometimes be a chore, or even getting

the top off of a water bottle. I used to water and snow ski, hike, run, ride

horse, etc., but now I sometimes feel so useless.

Yes , there are other alternatives to relieve us from our pain, but we've

got to keep having hope!!!!!!!! When I get to feeling bad, I think of someone

else who is worse off than me. I know at least two other people around my age

of 44, in the small town in which I live, that are a lot worse off than me. One

has Lupus and the other was just diagnosed with ALS or Lou Gherigs (spelling?)

disease. At least with PA we aren't given the " death sentence. "

It's nice to be able to belong to this group and discuss how we feel. I'm sure

that the people in this group understand the depression that we sometimes have

and there is no need to apologize to anyone.

Vicki

JOHN M DAKE wrote:

> From: " JOHN M DAKE " <WATT@...>

>

> Dear

>

> You do not have to apologize for anything, there's been

> plenty, way to many a time that I've asked why me, what the hell did I do

> wrong? I never get an answer. There's a lot of times that I don't want to

> talk to anyone about it, because I feel that I'm 2nd class, I can't do the

> things I want to, like teach my son to play, baseball, basketball, football,

> list goes on. It is natural to feel sorry yourself. Believe me I have

> thought of the other alternative, but I put that away because I still have

> hope that some day they will come up with something that will help me or

> cure me. I know that's a long shot but it's all I have.

>

> We all have bad days that can stretch into months.

>

> My Dr. is really excited about remicade, there have been 6 documented

> PA people that it has been given to and they all had a 50% improvement. Of

> course he did say that they may have been able to give these people sugar

> pills and they would have improved. It can have some nasty side effects that

> they know of because it's new. The one that concerns me the most is the

> Lupus like syndrome I'll have to find out more about that before I take it.

> I don't need another disease. If I do it he wants me to be in a study if

> that is in a group or by myself. You have to realize that I've been on the

> max treatment and I'm still going downhill, (should have been a skier Ha,

> Ha, Ha) he wants me in a study because the info on what happens should be

> out there for everyone, good or bad.

>

> God am I long winded or what!!!!!! ................Just shoot me....

>

> Any way you do not have to apolgize to anyone, if they can't

> understand it they have no business being here.

>

> Hell last night I probably pissed off a lot of people, in a

> chat room, don't know if it was a bad day, the meds or if I was just being

> orny.

>

> Cheer up girl your in a small select group that has a rare disease

> We are special!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> Dake

>

> > Please visit our new web page at:

> http://www.wpunj.edu/icip/pa

December 5, 1999

,

No need to apologize - goodness, my hope is that you'll be feeling better

soon. Been there, done that, you know! You are not being a big baby, not

all all!

Patty

July 12, 2000

i agree with you . i thnk there are times when no one understands the pain

and the skin disease combined. it is very normal for us to feel sorry for

ourselves when we can not get relief. i must say when i have the psoriasis

all over it is very upsetting to me and especially in the summer when

everything is aout short sleeves and shorts. i wear long sleeves and jeans.

well at least when i have to go out. i know its probably stupid but i am self

concious. my husband of 30 years is so kind and considerate to me i feel like

i am the luc. .kiest person around.i am unable to work and am very crippledup

[walking with 2 canes. i can cook and do light housework . i drop a lot of

stuff because my hands are very crippled up.he just picks everything up and

with a

grin. says at least you try. i guess i dont know where id be without him .

cathy from mass

July 14, 2000

Sharon -

You bring up a great point. The political side of getting this disease

noticed. Again, yesterday I received a " beg " letter from the American

Arthritis Foundation. Even their letterhead says " committed to finding a

cure for osteoarthritis " - What about us???

No one knows what PA is - A million times we have all been told " oh yeah, I

have arthritis too - take a couple tylenol and you'll be fine " - I have no

idea how to go about doing this, but I for one would love to find a way to

make this disease more known and to " politic " for a cure.

I'd be interested in any info you may have.

Thanks,

October 18, 2000

I've been looking at sites that offer self-help for those of

experiencing a combination of depression and anxiety.

This article from the About.com site on Panic/Anxiety Disorder.

From

http://panicdisorder.about.com/health/panicdisorder/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=\

http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madstop.org%2Fwordwitch%2Fbreathe.html

Breathing Exercises

Here are several types of intentional breathing exercises. It is

important

to be aware of your breathing, and be able to switch in to abdominal

breathing for all of them, so I suggest you become comfortable with

" relaxing breath " first. While breathing exercises can be learned

quickly, it

often takes months of practice to realize the full benefits of them, so

don't

give up! Breathing exercises are important for meditation magick and

healing. Breath is used by many mental health professionals as a healing

technique for such conditions as anxiety, panic attacks, phobias,

depression and stress symptoms such as tension headaches, tight

muscles, irritability and fatigue. It is also great for PMS! --Zephyr

Basic Natural Breathing

1.Sit, stand or lie comfortably with your back in a good posture.

Slumping forward inhibits your

ability to breathe deeply and fully.

2.Identify anything that is stressing or worrying you. Only think

about this for a few seconds,

then let it all go. Imagine the tension taking flight like a flock

of doves soaring into the sky.

Hear their wings flapping as your worries leave you, lighter,

freer.

3.Consciously relax your arms and shoulders. Place one hand on your

abdomen.

4.Slowly exhale through your nose, expelling all the air you can

without strain.

5.Take a deep breath, filling first your abdomen, then your chest.

Feel your abdomen inflate like

a soft balloon, but not distend.

6.Exhale slowly through your nose again.

7.Repeat this, being cognizant of each breath until your breathing is

steady and natural feeling.

Notice how relaxed you have become. You are ready to proceed with

grounding and centering,

meditation, more advanced breathing exercises (below) or other

activities.

Tension Release Breathing

1.Do not let yourself think about any worries or anxiety provoking

issues while doing this

exercise. If the thoughts creep in, stop them by re-focusing on the

breathing and counting.

2.Begin breathing deeply, filling your abdomen first, then your

chest.

3.Sit quietly, scan your body for tension, and consciously tell any

tense muscles to relax (tension

often accumulates in shoulders, neck and back).

4.Inhale deeply through your nose, pause, then exhale, count one.

5.Repeat, counting your exhalations to five.

6.Begin again, counting exhalations one to five.

7.Continue this exercise 5-10 minutes.

You should be relaxed and the anxiety or tension greatly diminished.

Purifying Breath

This breathing exercise is used to tone your respiratory system and to

send renewed energy to your

whole body. If you have been sitting and feeling stagnant, this one will

reawaken you. It can be used

as part of a pre-ritual cleansing as well.

1.Sit or stand comfortably.

2.Inhale a complete, natural breath through your nose.

3.Hold the breath for a few seconds.

4.Pretend you have a straw in your mouth, and exhale a short burst of

air forcefully, through the

small opening. Stop, then do it again.

5.With each puff out, visualize an pollutants, negativity and

detrimental germs going with the air,

and falling harmlessly to the floor.

6.Repeat until you have emptied your lungs via these short, strong

puffs.

7.Inhale, visualizing pure, cleansing air entering your body, filling

you with purity.

8.Repeat about 6-10 times.

Energizing Breath

1.Stand comfortably.

2.Stretch several times, reaching higher each time.

3.Trigger your yawn reflex while stretching.

4.Begin breathing deeply and naturally, as above.

5.Spin your arms backward, all the way around.

6.Switch directions, spinning them forward.

7.This will re-energize you!

Healing Breath

1.Lie comfortably.

2.Practice natural breathing for a few minutes.

3.Place your dominant hand on the part of the body that is injured or

infected. Place your other

hand (receptive) on your abdomen.

4.Visualize energy flowing into you with each inhalation, filling a

reservoir in your solar plexus.

Imagine this energy flowing into the selected area, washing through

it, driving out the pain or

infection. Cleansing, purifying, disinfecting energy being drawn

from the universe and being

channeled into healing light.

5.Continue this until your feel ready to be finished.

6.Place both arms at your sides, palms turned downward and let the

excess energy in you

hands flow back into the surface/ground beneath you.

7.This exercise may be repeated as needed.

please keep copyright

attached.

Try this and see if it doesn't help relieve some of the symptoms.

Patty B in the Pineywoods of East Texas

June 25, 2001

Hi Lee, Sorry to hear that you've had a go of the " blues " . I also

experience this from time to time and it seems to come out of nowhere.

I can only say that others both on this list and on other sites have

shared that they too have bouts of depression/blues. My understanding

is that it is also part of the disorder and is common to all sorts of

rheumatoid diseases. A good number of us take some form of

anti-depressant either in the dosage prescribed for depression, or at

lesser doses as sedatives/muscle relaxants. A good rule of thumb is

to see how long each bout lasts and how frequent they are. If it's a

" down " day, but then you're okay for long periods of time, you

probably don't need help with it beyond some support from those around

you (us included). However, if it lasts for several days at a time

and/or happens often then you probably need a little extra help fom

your doctor. In any case, please know that your're not alone in this,

we all know pretty much what you're going through. Take care,

Lorraine

June 26, 2001

<< I've had 7 injections of MTX - tomorrow will be number 8. Yesterday I had a

bad case of the " blues " . It seemed like everything made me cry. Is this

possibly a reaction to MTX. >>

The sometimes sudden dose of reality that comes with finally realizing you've

reached a point in this disease where you have to inject a needle in your own

body is a big hurdle a lot of us have to jump. The fact that the benefits aren't

that immediate doesn't help either. Give it a little more time, and keep in

mind that MTX is NOT the last resort. Jim

June 28, 2001

Jim, Could you please elaborate about what else is in the pipe line.

When you said that MTX is NOT the last resort it caused me to wonder

what IS the last resort. Thanks Lee

June 29, 2001

> Jim, Could you please elaborate about what else is in the pipe line. When you

said that MTX is NOT the last resort it caused me to wonder

what IS the last resort. <

Enbrel, Remicade, combinations of lesser drugs, antibiotic therapy, probably a

couple I don't know about and the research being done in gene therapy. The last

resort is 'giving up " .

November 30, 2002

Testosterone (or lack thereof) can be associated with mood.

Intuitively, this makes sense to me. If you lack " energy " (how's

that for a precise scientific term?) you're less likely to keep it

together emotionally. At least, that's my personal experience.

Talking clinical depression...

Bouts of serious depression over an extended period definitely

require treatment, in my opinion. Depression can take on a life of

its own, even when stressors are removed, particularly if there are

recurring major stressors.

Another hormone to check out is thyroid. Hypothyroidism can cause

depressed feelings. It's important to be tested for T3 as well as

T4, since there's the possibility that the T4 level is good but that

it isn't converting properly to T3.

As for depression and testosterone, pubmed yields 911 results on the

search term " depression AND testosterone " .

-- KR

> Hi I am new to the group!

> I have a question is there a connection with hypogonadism and

> depression I have been taking 120mg of andriol for the past 3 years

> and now I find that I should have been taking 160mg I have been

> having bouts of depression for the last year and a half is there a

> connection. I have had hypogonadism from before puberty but was

> taking injection before the andriol

> Any info or suggestion would be appreciated, Thanks

November 30, 2002

KR,

Not all depression in men is necessarily related to sub optimal T levels.

We've had a few men here that had high normal T levels and still had

depression.

I wondered if there could be two, depression, neural pathways, one

refractory to T and the other ameliorated by T. I asked my psychiatrist

about this and he concurred.

Men are greatly under diagnosed for depression...some men feel they should

be able to pull themselves up by their " bootstraps " or " will " it away.

Generally it doesn't work like that...there's an underlying chemical

imbalance.

OR eon

December 1, 2002

> KR,

> Not all depression in men is necessarily related to sub optimal T

levels.

> We've had a few men here that had high normal T levels and still had

> depression.

Yes. I totally agree. I guess I should have been more explicit. In

fact, I think that most occurrences of clinical depression are NOT

caused or related to low T.

On a personal note I take meds for depression. Did so before I took

T and will continue to do so. In addition I also do therapy,

meditate and attend 12-step meetings (overeaters anonymous).

For myself this multiple approach works best. The meds available now

don't do it by themselves. At least not for me. Perhaps no meds

ever will. Personal growth seems to me to require commitment and

work.

My neurology, I believe, serves as the baseline from which that work

has effect and to what degree or not. Without the meds only very

limited effect (for me); with the meds much greater effect.

-- KR

December 1, 2002

KR,

Nah...no need to be more explicit...having T checked first is probably best

approach and if TRT doesn't ameliorate depression...seek out professional

help. Incidence of depression is high in mature, HIV+ men---me. I

developed clinical depression in summer 1997...began seeing current

psychiatrist....Oct he put me on Wellbutrin SR, 150 mg/2x/dy....that didn't

completely eliminate depression...suicidal ideation continued and appeared

to worsen. December, Lithobid, 300 mg/2x/dy was added as mood stabilizer

and I've not looked back.

Only one time since then have I been depressed and that was after GP put me

on diuretic...the diuretic was flushing lithium out. It was easier to give

up diuretic than find one compatible with lithium.

I have my own " indicator " or depression....sensations around my eyes over

nose bridge...I don't cry but feel I want to.

At another site, a middle-aged, male member was posting about his ED and

cause for suicidal ideation. A good lesson...I asked my psychiatrist, if

you are having repetitive, suicidal, ideation....is an individual depressed!

YES! Now the only time that I have suicidal ideation is when I'm thinking

that I no longer have it.

Just my experiences...

OR eon

64 yo HIV+ gayman

In Commemoration of World AIDS Day

December 1st, 2002

February 16, 2004

>I wish someone would tell me why testosterone makes

>for weight gain. Isn't there some pure form that does not do this?

>thanks for any thoughts

>nort828

>

Just as an aside, it is usefull to keep in mind that the weight gain and

water retention is often a side effect of high estrogen so in tracking down

the problem you have to be sure that it is the T rather than the T converted

to estrogen that is the problem. It could be just the T although the

experience of many men would be that T causes them to get leaner. I saying

I dont know but just pointing out the estrogen factor for consideration.

Winter

_________________________________________________________________

Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and

beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx

February 16, 2004

>

> >I wish someone would tell me why testosterone makes

> >for weight gain. Isn't there some pure form that does not do this?

> >thanks for any thoughts

> >nort828

> >

>

> Just as an aside, it is usefull to keep in mind that the weight

gain and

> water retention is often a side effect of high estrogen so in

tracking down

> the problem you have to be sure that it is the T rather than the T

converted

> to estrogen that is the problem. It could be just the T although

the

> experience of many men would be that T causes them to get leaner.

I saying

> I dont know but just pointing out the estrogen factor for

consideration.

>

> Winter

-----------------------------------

Hi Winter, I just had all the blood tests down and my E was 32 and

my endo said it was not high. So, any other thoughts on why T makes

for sudden weight gain? And what is the gain, is it all water?

I have to literally get sick from fasting just to stay the same

weight.

nort828

February 17, 2004

I recently started Androgel as well and while I'm feeling better, I

have also gained weight kind of quickly. I am a long distance runner

but I lowered my mileage to adjust to the T.

Also, my resting HR has gone up (about 10-15 beats per minute) which

is significant. Phil has pointed out that it is water retention

related to the weight gain. I do feel a little " puffy " as well but I

started to monitor my calories/exercise expenditure to try and get

the weight down again. One thing to remember is not to starve

yourself because you will slow down your metabolism and your weight

will start to yo-yo. Try and eat 6 smaller meals during the day and

space out your calories. Also, you should figure out based on your

age/weight/height/work/activity level what your true metabolic rate

is. For a few days write down every calorie you take in and then make

sure your eating a few hundered calories less than this. Since I

started to do this last week, I have at least stablized my weight and

it is starting to drop again. One final point which Phil also

recommends and I think is VITAL is to drink AT LEAST 64 ozs of H20

per day and more if you sweat or exercise.

I hope this helps because I feel your frustration with the weight

gain.

> This thread is interesting to me because I have been treated for

> depression three times, in 1986, 1991, and 1996. All three times

the

> psychiatrist put me on prozac first, then wellbutin the last time.

> During these times I was doing one shot of depo every 4-5 weeks. I

> now realize that my testosterone level was low all those years.

> Because I gained about 6 pounds after doing an injection, I let my

> level run way down to avoid the weight problem. I am now thinking

> that it was a very good chance that I just felt run down and

> fatigued and attributed this low testosterone condition to

> depression. I am now on Androgel and I feel pretty good overall,

> with no downer periods, and no desire to see a shrink. Maybe I am

> just older and richer and don't have so much to worry about any

more.

> One thing is currently really bothering me: I eat one decent meal

a

> day and otherwise just lightly snack, yet I have gained 8 pounds

> back on the Androgel 5 mg a day. Yes I feel strong when I lift

> weights but the puffiness in my torso from the water/weight gain is

> pissing me off. I wish someone would tell me why testosterone

makes

> for weight gain. Isn't there some pure form that does not do this?

> thanks for any thoughts

> nort828

February 17, 2004

It is always good to mention:

Get your estradiol level checked.

If it is high, then that is part of the problem for gaining weight

in mid section etc. Arimidex or Aromasin will help take care of that.

Also, consider raising your t level HIGHER, not lower. 5G is on the

low side. You might want to try a higher dose if your blood work

shows you have some upward room for movement. T will help tone and

strengthen, but it is critical to look at the estradiol levels. If

you are gaining body fat, then I really recommend looking at upping

the dose and checking estradiol levels.

Armyguy

> This thread is interesting to me because I have been treated for

> depression three times, in 1986, 1991, and 1996. All three times

the

> psychiatrist put me on prozac first, then wellbutin the last time.

> During these times I was doing one shot of depo every 4-5 weeks.

I