Re: Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

[Guest guest]

It is only going to work if getting these points is meaningful enough to her to want to work for them.

Also, it seems like "minding" is not really a clearly defined goal. I think this works better if you have a specific and clearly defined behavior you want to shape. It's like telling our kids to "behave" without defining what behaviors we consider "behaving." For NT kids, they get it - it means no arguing, no fighting, no name calling, etc. But kids with social deficits, "behave" means "I hope I don't get yelled at." I think "minding" would be another word just like that. If it's not working, then it is too broad of a concept and you should break it down into smaller pieces.

As for "stop peseverating" when you say stop, that is beyond just "minding." This is because she is not doing it at will, it is done as part of a disability. If you tell a person with OCD to stop having OCD, can they? No. People with OCD have to have therapy and/or meds to help them deal with the effects of their disability.

One behavior to shape - "stop putting your glass on the counter" is entirely different than, "Stop peseverating" Both instances, you want her to mind you and obey. But both are not within her control - the glass is, the peseverating is not. She would have to have help learning how to stop peseverating - techniques she could use when it happens, coaching to help her learn and/or meds to help her control it. That's what makes it a disability vs. a willful act. In this case, I doubt any number of points will be successful at eliminating peseveration problems.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

>

>

> As I mentioned I am being coached by a behaviorist on shaping

> behaviors. Is it possible for an Asperger child to "mind" their

> parents? Our behaviorist thinks so, if the positive reinfrcements

> are small but meaningful.

>

> She wants me to make it "EASY" for her to mind me. Pass the

> salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

> shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

> are not easy "turn off the tv" and if she doesn't I am

> to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

> it no lecture, punishment etc.

>

> She said it's like playing the piano you have to work at practicing

> the skill and keeping it motivating.

>

> She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

> skill to be "minding" for us.

>

> I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

> especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

> It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

> give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

>

> I think this is such a different way to think about shaping behaviors and positive reinforcement.

>

> Gosh though how I am going to keep this up. This takes a

> major change in how I am thinking. I have to be thinking all the

> time how to catch her minding me and give her easy things to practice.

>

> Pam

>

Hot Deals at Dell on Popular Laptops perfect for Back to School

[Guest guest]

Roxanna thanks for the resonse. I really appeciate it, because it helps me think

thru this behavior plan.

Yale seems to think that learned behavior is like learning the

piano you have to practice a single skill over and over again. That makes sense

right?

And to get them to practice Yale suggests small steps and small

rewards and praise. Not punishment.

Insight (Michele Winner's curriculum, social Skill classes) and

cognitive therapy with experts in OCD did not make any differences

in her school anxiety or social anxiety. Medication is in the works

as we slowly increase it.

My daughter is skilled at negotiation and debate. But severly

deficit in following directions the first time I give them.

School snd work eventually will want a person that doesn't

keep saying 5 more minutes.

I too wonder how I am going to shape a more mindful Asperger child

that often obsesses, but I think I better get busy. She hasn't

been in school since March.

thanks for the response it really helps,

Pam

-- In , Roxanna <MadIdeas@...> wrote:

>

>

> It is only going to work if getting these points is meaningful enough to her

to want to work for them.?

>

> Also, it seems like " minding " is not really a clearly defined goal.? I think

this works better if you have a specific and clearly defined behavior you want

to shape.? It's like telling our kids to " behave " without defining what

behaviors we consider " behaving. " ? For NT kids, they get it - it means no

arguing, no fighting, no name calling, etc.? But kids with social deficits,

" behave " means " I hope I don't get yelled at. " ? I think " minding " would be

another word just like that.? If it's not working, then it is too broad of a

concept and you should break it down into smaller pieces.

>

> As for " stop peseverating " when you say stop, that is beyond just " minding. " ?

This is because she is not doing it at will, it is done as part of a

disability.? If you tell a person with OCD to stop having OCD, can they?? No.?

People with OCD have to have therapy and/or meds to help them deal with the

effects of their disability.?

>

> One behavior to shape - " stop putting your glass on the counter " is entirely

different than, " Stop peseverating " ?? Both instances, you want her to mind you

and obey.? But both are not within her control - the glass is, the peseverating

is not.? She would have to have help learning how to stop peseverating -

techniques she could use when it happens, coaching to help her learn and/or meds

to help her control it.? That's what makes it a disability vs. a willful act.?

In this case, I doubt any number of points will be successful at eliminating

peseveration problems.?

>

>

>

>

>

> ?Roxanna

>

> " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do

nothing. " E. Burke

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ( ) Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

>

> >

>

> > ?

>

> > As I mentioned I am being coached by a behaviorist on shaping

>

> > behaviors. Is it possible for an Asperger child to " mind " their

>

> > parents? Our behaviorist thinks so, if the positive reinfrcements

>

> > are small but meaningful.

>

> >

>

> > She wants me to make it " EASY " for her to mind me. Pass the

>

> > salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

>

> > shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

>

> > are not easy " turn off the tv " and if she doesn't I am

>

> > to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

>

> > it no lecture, punishment etc.

>

> >

>

> > She said it's like playing the piano you have to work at practicing

>

> > the skill and keeping it motivating.

>

> >

>

> > She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

>

> > skill to be " minding " for us.

>

> >

>

> > I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

>

> > especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

>

> > It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

>

> > give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

>

> >

>

> > I think this is such a different way to think about shaping behaviors and

positive reinforcement.

>

> >

>

> > Gosh though how I am going to keep this up. This takes a

>

> > major change in how I am thinking. I have to be thinking all the

>

> > time how to catch her minding me and give her easy things to practice.

>

> >

>

> > Pam

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I have to think about this too! Theoretically, her having a schedule or

chart, perhaps that she has helped put together, to follow would be teaching

higher level skills. But my son doesn't follow a schedule either, so I know

what you mean. It isn't teaching anything if they won't do it. But I'm not

sure having lots of little steps, all coming from Mom, is the answer either.

Both of our kids are really a little too old for that, Asperger and all. I know

my son would never let me dictate bunches of little steps for him. That would

be a horrible fight. I have done what they are having you do--just do little,

easy steps that he doesn't mind--but it doesn't lead to him doing bigger or more

steps involving things that he doesn't want to do.

I've been thinking about this, thinking about what HAS worked for us. Like

taking a shower every other day. We had what I guess you could call bath

refusal once my son got old enough to take his bath by himself. But taking a

shower is a routine of sorts that we have gotten him to do.

It took several years! He truly feels like people don't need to bathe more than

once every couple weeks. What worked? It was a mixture of figuring out sensory

and executive dysfunction issues, being consistent with first then and using

collaborative learning. It is actually a pretty long list.

Showers instead of baths helped with germ squeamishness, body wash instead of

bar soap was easier with the manual dexterity delays, explicit instructions for

shampooing helped with executive functioning and pragmatic language issues.

Collaborative learning--we started out by helping him get the supplies together,

like bringing him a clean towel, walking him to the bathroom if necessary,

prompting. In the beginning, I had to send him back for another shower if he

didn't get clean. That resulted in some tantrums, but I think it was something

we needed to work through.

Interestingly, he still doesn't really think people need to bathe very often.

He wouldn't do it on his own. But, he'll do it without too much fuss when

prompted if we follow our little routine that he is used to.

So, we've been successful in the sense that we can get him to do this routine

with little supervision and get the job done without it disrupting the whole

family, but not successful in the sense that he has not internalized it and

doesn't initiate it on his own.

I'm not sure what this will be like when he is 18 or 20. Will we still need to

tell him to take a shower? He does remember to get his own towel now before he

goes in, so he is initiating some part of the routine without any prompting.

Will he keep doing more and more on his own initiative and eventually initiate

the shower itself? I don't know! I'd be curious others' experience with this.

It took our son a long time to build up to doing the whole shower routine on his

own. He had to learn simple things like what to do if the soap isn't where it

usually is, learn to deal with a new type of soap, etc. And this is a kid who

is very bright LOL. It really is amazing, these different parts of his brain.

This is classic collaborative learning; I'm just frustrated because we have yet

to really get what I would consider an end product. I'm left wondering if it is

going to really work in the long run. Will he really start taking showers on

his own once he can really handle any inconsistencies that come up in all the

steps? Once I guess he is REEEAAAaaaly comfortable with the whole process? And

do we have to do this for EVERYTHING in his everyday life that he doesn't want

to bother with?

....okay, enough rambling. So, anyway, how is this different from what the Yale

folks are proposing? Is it different? Maybe the little things you are trying

to get her to do to show " minding " could be more goal-oriented? Like whatever

you want her to do by herself, you could pick out little things that work toward

that instead of just random little things?

It seems like they are sort of doing the same thing as collaborative learning in

the sense that you are just having her do pieces of things and you take care of

the rest. And I assume they are expecting her to pick up more and more of the

pieces as time goes on.

[Guest guest]

Ruth I do plan to keep my daily schedule a focus. My daughter

pushes on all the boundaries for more time for her interests. So I have to keep

that and make her aware that 6pm is pet care or homework time, 7pm is hygiene

etc.

The Yale plan apparently is not to punish her or nag that she takes too long to

start on pet care at 6pm but to praise any task that she

readily does when asked. Its a subtle difference I have trouble

seeing. But the goal is to slowly move her toward doing as I say when I say it

by praising whenever she does do that.

I do agree with you how can I expect her to do as I say all the time.

Some tasks will be easier than others. I quess for us the priority is

taking her medication and getting to school.

Then there are so many skills she needs to learn and is so far behind socially

that it is upsetting to just pick a few basic skills

like eating meals and getting to sleep on time but one step at a time.

When I am focused on too much nothing improves much. The folks at Yale

are giving me a reality check.

Thanks for helping so much,

Pam

Pam

The problem I find is that there are too many skills to shape. She

is too behind in too many areas. It is overwhelming.

Let's assume some type of program applied in a consistent

way helps to shape behavior.

Then I just need to do it. And hope I pick the right skills to

focus on.

I would love to focus more on reciprocal socializing.

But there are so many more basic skills she hasn't

accomplished. Like getting to school daily,

like stop thinking special interests and think about school

work. Like being calm sitting in a group at school.

It is so great to have your feedback and others,

thanks,

Pam

> >

> > She wants me to make it " EASY " for her to mind me. Pass the

> > salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

> > shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

> > are not easy " turn off the tv " and if she doesn't I am

> > to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

> > it no lecture, punishment etc.

>

> I agree with . The general idea is good, but the giving of points is

artificial and forced. Giving her points instead of simple praise isn't adding

anything. It makes more work for you and it takes away the naturalness of the

consequence (the positive consequence of receiving praise from a parent for

considerate behavior). Personally, I think behaviorists do the point thing

because it helps THEM. It is a way for THEM to keep track of what their clients

are doing. Just my two cents!

>

> My son has never responded to artificial token economies like this. It isn't

just me, because his elementary teachers commented on it also. Their token

economies never worked with him. No kind of traditional rewards and punishments

ever worked with him. I hate to say it, but praising him has never really done

much either. A lot of times he doesn't understand why we are doing it and is

suspicious. We are lucky that he is intrinsically a kind and caring person, so

it hasn't really mattered.

>

> I really read a lot and experimented with lots of different interventions, and

I can only repeat that what works for us is the first then thing and

collaborative learning. Apparently some Asperger kids react to rewards and

punishments the same as normal kids, but for the ones who don't, you have to do

something different. It is not that your kids don't need consequences, but they

have to be applied a different way. It definitely helps to have a schedule and

routine, but you have to be careful because they get addicted to it. You don't

want to make them even less flexible.

>

> One thing that bugs me about what the Yale people are doing is that it would

work wonderfully with my NT child. That makes me wonder if they have really

tried it out with Autistic kids? These things they are suggesting would work

great with ADHD kids?

>

> I think Asperger kids can learn to mind with little things like they are

talking about. Mine does that. But I don't think it will naturally lead to

them minding about " big " things that they don't want/aren't interested in doing

like it would with an NT child. Hasn't with my child.

>

> > She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

> > skill to be " minding " for us.

>

> > I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

> > especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

> > It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

> > give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

>

> I have to think about this too! Theoretically, her having a schedule or

chart, perhaps that she has helped put together, to follow would be teaching

higher level skills. But my son doesn't follow a schedule either, so I know

what you mean. It isn't teaching anything if they won't do it. But I'm not

sure having lots of little steps, all coming from Mom, is the answer either.

Both of our kids are really a little too old for that, Asperger and all. I know

my son would never let me dictate bunches of little steps for him. That would

be a horrible fight. I have done what they are having you do--just do little,

easy steps that he doesn't mind--but it doesn't lead to him doing bigger or more

steps involving things that he doesn't want to do. My son's interventions have

been so patchwork because my husband is not supportive and the school has not

been supportive in the past that it is hard to say what might have worked. I

agree keeping the demands very small and going very slow like they are

suggesting is helpful. You kind of have to balance that with the real world.

>

> I'm kind of rambling! Our school is planning on taking a different approach.

They are planning on going gung-ho into the schedules and lists and trying to

get him to work more independently. They are assuming the " minding " part is

already in place, that he just needs accommodations for the executive

dysfunction and pragmatic communication problems. I know this isn't going to

work the way they think, but I haven't figured out yet what to suggest instead.

>

> In my son's case, I find the " minding " problems are usually happening because

he is having some kind of difficulty. Sometimes he is not even aware of the

difficulty himself. So, simply trying to offer rewards like it is purely a

behavior problem would never work. I have to figure out what the difficulty is

and work with him on that at the same time. Often he doesn't believe me when I

try to discuss the problem and solution. All I can do is the first then thing

and collaborative learning so he can see for himself and get used to it. It is

not as simple as discovering his challenge and finding the solution. Since he

doesn't understand the challenge, he doesn't understand the solution either.

The social cognitive deficits of Asperger kids lead to complications that many

behaviorists don't understand, I think.

>

> I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Need to get to work! Don't know if this

was any help or not. I need to think through all these issues too. I guess

I'll keep at it. I think like all things, you can take some and leave some

regarding the Yale people. Like all therapists, they'll be right about some

things and wrong about other things. Hopefully they are not too hard-nosed and

will work with you on figuring out what works for you and what doesn't and won't

try to force you to follow a canned plan. That would be a shame since they have

some good ideas.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> The Yale plan apparently is not to punish her or nag that she takes too long

to start on pet care at 6pm but to praise any task that she

> readily does when asked. Its a subtle difference I have trouble

> seeing. But the goal is to slowly move her toward doing as I say when I say it

by praising whenever she does do that.

This is not a new idea to me, and I think it is great. What is different is

using it as the only or main intervention. Or am I misunderstanding? We have

had success with this, although for us it was very slow--slow like in years to

take effect. I can't imagine expecting this to be the main source of behavior

change unless you have a very eager to please child. And it is not clear

whether it was this method of intervention or maturity that played a bigger part

in the change in behavior. Something that comes to mind is ending computer

turns with our boys, something we've been doing for years. The last year or so

they have gotten considerably better, although they still don't end their turns

exactly on time. I can really see how praising them when they ended on time or

close to it has had an effect, as they are proud to be considered good at this.

> Then there are so many skills she needs to learn and is so far behind socially

that it is upsetting to just pick a few basic skills

> like eating meals and getting to sleep on time but one step at a time.

>

> When I am focused on too much nothing improves much. The folks at Yale

> are giving me a reality check.

I think you're doing well, Pam--heading in the right direction. I'm sure there

will be a few wrinkles to iron out. Don't forget you'll be getting a lot of

help that you've never had before once school starts.

You'll have a quite a team working with your daughter. I always wonder if my

son will ever appreciate all the extra work all the people around him do. He

doesn't seem very aware.

[Guest guest]

Not all kids are the same, including AS kids. So you can't say that these techniques will work with NT kids but not AS kids since that is too broad of a statement to make. They may or may not work with NT kids or AS kids. It depends on the kid. The reward has to be individualized in order to work. It has to be something that means something to the person who is getting it or else it won't work. For some kids, they can deal with tokens or sticker charts, delaying a more tangible reward for the end, while other kids need real items or rewards up front. That would be the "first/then" you are always mentioning. It's the same thing. My older ds would not work for anything, which drove teachers mad until he got one who connected with him and figured out ways to motivate him. The little guy with severe autism that I used to work with worked for gummies and tickles. So it just is a matter of finding what is motivating to the person you are working with.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

>

> She wants me to make it "EASY" for her to mind me. Pass the

> salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

> shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

> are not easy "turn off the tv" and if she doesn't I am

> to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

> it no lecture, punishment etc.

I agree with . The general idea is good, but the giving of points is artificial and forced. Giving her points instead of simple praise isn't adding anything. It makes more work for you and it takes away the naturalness of the consequence (the positive consequence of receiving praise from a parent for considerate behavior). Personally, I think behaviorists do the point thing because it helps THEM. It is a way for THEM to keep track of what their clients are doing. Just my two cents!

My son has never responded to artificial token economies like this. It isn't just me, because his elementary teachers commented on it also. Their token economies never worked with him. No kind of traditional rewards and punishments ever worked with him. I hate to say it, but praising him has never really done much either. A lot of times he doesn't understand why we are doing it and is suspicious. We are lucky that he is intrinsically a kind and caring person, so it hasn't really mattered.

I really read a lot and experimented with lots of different interventions, and I can only repeat that what works for us is the first then thing and collaborative learning. Apparently some Asperger kids react to rewards and punishments the same as normal kids, but for the ones who don't, you have to do something different. It is not that your kids don't need consequences, but they have to be applied a different way. It definitely helps to have a schedule and routine, but you have to be careful because they get addicted to it. You don't want to make them even less flexible.

One thing that bugs me about what the Yale people are doing is that it would work wonderfully with my NT child. That makes me wonder if they have really tried it out with Autistic kids? These things they are suggesting would work great with ADHD kids?

I think Asperger kids can learn to mind with little things like they are talking about. Mine does that. But I don't think it will naturally lead to them minding about "big" things that they don't want/aren't interested in doing like it would with an NT child. Hasn't with my child.

> She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

> skill to be "minding" for us.

> I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

> especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

> It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

> give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

I have to think about this too! Theoretically, her having a schedule or chart, perhaps that she has helped put together, to follow would be teaching higher level skills. But my son doesn't follow a schedule either, so I know what you mean. It isn't teaching anything if they won't do it. But I'm not sure having lots of little steps, all coming from Mom, is the answer either. Both of our kids are really a little too old for that, Asperger and all. I know my son would never let me dictate bunches of little steps for him. That would be a horrible fight. I have done what they are having you do--just do little, easy steps that he doesn't mind--but it doesn't lead to him doing bigger or more steps involving things that he doesn't want to do. My son's interventions have been so patchwork because my husband is not supportive and the school has not been supportive in the past that it is hard to say what might have worked. I agree keeping the demands very small and going very slow like they are suggesting is helpful. You kind of have to balance that with the real world.

I'm kind of rambling! Our school is planning on taking a different approach. They are planning on going gung-ho into the schedules and lists and trying to get him to work more independently. They are assuming the "minding" part is already in place, that he just needs accommodations for the executive dysfunction and pragmatic communication problems. I know this isn't going to work the way they think, but I haven't figured out yet what to suggest instead.

In my son's case, I find the "minding" problems are usually happening because he is having some kind of difficulty. Sometimes he is not even aware of the difficulty himself. So, simply trying to offer rewards like it is purely a behavior problem would never work. I have to figure out what the difficulty is and work with him on that at the same time. Often he doesn't believe me when I try to discuss the problem and solution. All I can do is the first then thing and collaborative learning so he can see for himself and get used to it. It is not as simple as discovering his challenge and finding the solution. Since he doesn't understand the challenge, he doesn't understand the solution either. The social cognitive deficits of Asperger kids lead to complications that many behaviorists don't understand, I think.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Need to get to work! Don't know if this was any help or not. I need to think through all these issues too. I guess I'll keep at it. I think like all things, you can take some and leave some regarding the Yale people. Like all therapists, they'll be right about some things and wrong about other things. Hopefully they are not too hard-nosed and will work with you on figuring out what works for you and what doesn't and won't try to force you to follow a canned plan. That would be a shame since they have some good ideas.

A bad credit score is 600 below. Checking won't affect your score. See now!

[Guest guest]

I agree with Yale, practicing good behavior is a good idea. Yep, makes sense! Positive rewards are proven to work better than punishing what you don't want. So that makes sense too. Let us know how the meds are working out. It really should help.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

>

> >

>

> > ?

>

> > As I mentioned I am being coached by a behaviorist on shaping

>

> > behaviors. Is it possible for an Asperger child to "mind" their

>

> > parents? Our behaviorist thinks so, if the positive reinfrcements

>

> > are small but meaningful.

>

> >

>

> > She wants me to make it "EASY" for her to mind me. Pass the

>

> > salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

>

> > shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

>

> > are not easy "turn off the tv" and if she doesn't I am

>

> > to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

>

> > it no lecture, punishment etc.

>

> >

>

> > She said it's like playing the piano you have to work at practicing

>

> > the skill and keeping it motivating.

>

> >

>

> > She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

>

> > skill to be "minding" for us.

>

> >

>

> > I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

>

> > especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

>

> > It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

>

> > give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

>

> >

>

> > I think this is such a different way to think about shaping behaviors and positive reinforcement.

>

> >

>

> > Gosh though how I am going to keep this up. This takes a

>

> > major change in how I am thinking. I have to be thinking all the

>

> > time how to catch her minding me and give her easy things to practice.

>

> >

>

> > Pam

>

> >

>

Hot Deals at Dell on Popular Laptops perfect for Back to School

[Guest guest]

I just hope there is something subtle and different that the

Yale behaviorists will help me with. I don't think there is a token

or incentive that will get my daughter to go to school.

She doesn't want to go to school or socialize. Even if I got

her a new pet everyday I just couldn't sustain incentives.

But I hope that the medication may kick into play this fall.

And the Yale Behaviorist aren't just focused on the incentive

they are also focused on the task. And their suggestion is

to make each step going back to school a smaller step.

So she only goes to school the first week or so 2 hours.

So I am trying to understand Yale's methods. It seems the tasks

have to be very manageable so the incentive doesn't have to be too great.

Will this work getting my daughter back to school ? Yale thinks it will. They

want smaller behavior steps praised and reinforced before more is asked. I think

this is what worked getting her to take

medication. I started at such a small dose she was not afraid.

And she knew I meant she had to take it. And I did give an

incentive too. So it was a number of things together.

Pam

>

> >

>

> > She wants me to make it " EASY " for her to mind me. Pass the

>

> > salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

>

> > shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

>

> > are not easy " turn off the tv " and if she doesn't I am

>

> > to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

>

> > it no lecture, punishment etc.

>

>

>

> I agree with . The general idea is good, but the giving of points is

artificial and forced. Giving her points instead of simple praise isn't adding

anything. It makes more work for you and it takes away the naturalness of the

consequence (the positive consequence of receiving praise from a parent for

considerate behavior). Personally, I think behaviorists do the point thing

because it helps THEM. It is a way for THEM to keep track of what their clients

are doing. Just my two cents!

>

>

>

> My son has never responded to artificial token economies like this. It isn't

just me, because his elementary teachers commented on it also. Their token

economies never worked with him. No kind of traditional rewards and punishments

ever worked with him. I hate to say it, but praising him has never really done

much either. A lot of times he doesn't understand why we are doing it and is

suspicious. We are lucky that he is intrinsically a kind and caring person, so

it hasn't really mattered.

>

>

>

> I really read a lot and experimented with lots of different interventions, and

I can only repeat that what works for us is the first then thing and

collaborative learning. Apparently some Asperger kids react to rewards and

punishments the same as normal kids, but for the ones who don't, you have to do

something different. It is not that your kids don't need consequences, but they

have to be applied a different way. It definitely helps to have a schedule and

routine, but you have to be careful because they get addicted to it. You don't

want to make them even less flexible.

>

>

>

> One thing that bugs me about what the Yale people are doing is that it would

work wonderfully with my NT child. That makes me wonder if they have really

tried it out with Autistic kids? These things they are suggesting would work

great with ADHD kids?

>

>

>

> I think Asperger kids can learn to mind with little things like they are

talking about. Mine does that. But I don't think it will naturally lead to

them minding about " big " things that they don't want/aren't interested in doing

like it would with an NT child. Hasn't with my child.

>

>

>

> > She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

>

> > skill to be " minding " for us.

>

>

>

> > I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

>

> > especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

>

> > It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

>

> > give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

>

>

>

> I have to think about this too! Theoretically, her having a schedule or

chart, perhaps that she has helped put together, to follow would be teaching

higher level skills. But my son doesn't follow a schedule either, so I know

what you mean. It isn't teaching anything if they won't do it. But I'm not

sure having lots of little steps, all coming from Mom, is the answer either.

Both of our kids are really a little too old for that, Asperger and all. I know

my son would never let me dictate bunches of little steps for him. That would

be a horrible fight. I have done what they are having you do--just do little,

easy steps that he doesn't mind--but it doesn't lead to him doing bigger or more

steps involving things that he doesn't want to do. My son's interventions have

been so patchwork because my husband is not supportive and the school has not

been supportive in the past that it is hard to say what might have worked. I

agree keeping the demands very small and going very slow like they are

suggesting is helpful. You kind of have to balance that with the real world.

>

>

>

> I'm kind of rambling! Our school is planning on taking a different approach.

They are planning on going gung-ho into the schedules and lists and trying to

get him to work more independently. They are assuming the " minding " part is

already in place, that he just needs accommodations for the executive

dysfunction and pragmatic communication problems. I know this isn't going to

work the way they think, but I haven't figured out yet what to suggest instead.

>

>

>

> In my son's case, I find the " minding " problems are usually happening because

he is having some kind of difficulty. Sometimes he is not even aware of the

difficulty himself. So, simply trying to offer rewards like it is purely a

behavior problem would never work. I have to figure out what the difficulty is

and work with him on that at the same time. Often he doesn't believe me when I

try to discuss the problem and solution. All I can do is the first then thing

and collaborative learning so he can see for himself and get used to it. It is

not as simple as discovering his challenge and finding the solution. Since he

doesn't understand the challenge, he doesn't understand the solution either.

The social cognitive deficits of Asperger kids lead to complications that many

behaviorists don't understand, I think.

>

>

>

> I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Need to get to work! Don't know if this

was any help or not. I need to think through all these issues too. I guess

I'll keep at it. I think like all things, you can take some and leave some

regarding the Yale people. Like all therapists, they'll be right about some

things and wrong about other things. Hopefully they are not too hard-nosed and

will work with you on figuring out what works for you and what doesn't and won't

try to force you to follow a canned plan. That would be a shame since they have

some good ideas.

>

[Guest guest]

Well, there are sometimes just things that people have to do whether they get a reward or not. lol. You couldn't go through life holding snicker bars over her head (although my youngest would swear that it would work for him!) You just want to find ways to help her deal with life overall. Going to school is required. So talk about ways to make it work with her. Obviously, homeschooling is an option if all else fails. I really think the meds will help alleviate her anxiety so she can better deal with things. And then, taking it in small steps will also help ease her into this. So I think you have a great plan in place and just have to keep at it. (Maybe write up some social stories about going to school, if she would be interested in those type things?) A token system is great but the problem I see is that you will always have to apply the rewards. A good plan will identify several key changes to make, then reward the behavior you want to see, fading rewards over time. Pretty soon, you should be able to provide intermittent rewards to keep it up and not have to "nickle and dime" everything she does. I guess this is rather like two different things - one would be a schedule to follow for routine things (like bedtime or keeping your room cleaned) vs. learning to go to school, be with other kids, etc. The first would be a regular system (clean your room all week, get a reward for the weekend) and the other would be a system of fading rewards over time as she learns to do well on her own.

Roxanna

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." E. Burke

( ) Re: Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

I just hope there is something subtle and different that the

Yale behaviorists will help me with. I don't think there is a token

or incentive that will get my daughter to go to school.

She doesn't want to go to school or socialize. Even if I got

her a new pet everyday I just couldn't sustain incentives.

But I hope that the medication may kick into play this fall.

And the Yale Behaviorist aren't just focused on the incentive

they are also focused on the task. And their suggestion is

to make each step going back to school a smaller step.

So she only goes to school the first week or so 2 hours.

So I am trying to understand Yale's methods. It seems the tasks

have to be very manageable so the incentive doesn't have to be too great.

Will this work getting my daughter back to school ? Yale thinks it will. They want smaller behavior steps praised and reinforced before more is asked. I think this is what worked getting her to take

medication. I started at such a small dose she was not afraid.

And she knew I meant she had to take it. And I did give an

incentive too. So it was a number of things together.

Pam

>

> >

>

> > She wants me to make it "EASY" for her to mind me. Pass the

>

> > salt, oh good you did that, you get a point. Put on this

>

> > shirt, oh good you get a point..... then the tasks that

>

> > are not easy "turn off the tv" and if she doesn't I am

>

> > to say ...I can't give you a point for that ..and that is

>

> > it no lecture, punishment etc.

>

>

>

> I agree with . The general idea is good, but the giving of points is artificial and forced. Giving her points instead of simple praise isn't adding anything. It makes more work for you and it takes away the naturalness of the consequence (the positive consequence of receiving praise from a parent for considerate behavior). Personally, I think behaviorists do the point thing because it helps THEM. It is a way for THEM to keep track of what their clients are doing. Just my two cents!

>

>

>

> My son has never responded to artificial token economies like this. It isn't just me, because his elementary teachers commented on it also. Their token economies never worked with him. No kind of traditional rewards and punishments ever worked with him. I hate to say it, but praising him has never really done much either. A lot of times he doesn't understand why we are doing it and is suspicious. We are lucky that he is intrinsically a kind and caring person, so it hasn't really mattered.

>

>

>

> I really read a lot and experimented with lots of different interventions, and I can only repeat that what works for us is the first then thing and collaborative learning. Apparently some Asperger kids react to rewards and punishments the same as normal kids, but for the ones who don't, you have to do something different. It is not that your kids don't need consequences, but they have to be applied a different way. It definitely helps to have a schedule and routine, but you have to be careful because they get addicted to it. You don't want to make them even less flexible.

>

>

>

> One thing that bugs me about what the Yale people are doing is that it would work wonderfully with my NT child. That makes me wonder if they have really tried it out with Autistic kids? These things they are suggesting would work great with ADHD kids?

>

>

>

> I think Asperger kids can learn to mind with little things like they are talking about. Mine does that. But I don't think it will naturally lead to them minding about "big" things that they don't want/aren't interested in doing like it would with an NT child. Hasn't with my child.

>

>

>

> > She didn't want a schedule or chart, because she wants the

>

> > skill to be "minding" for us.

>

>

>

> > I have spent years unsucessfully getting her to keep to a plan

>

> > especially for meals and sleep. So the behaviorist has a point.

>

> > It hasn't worked and she said I set her up for failure if I didn't

>

> > give lots of easy steps she can do often successfully.

>

>

>

> I have to think about this too! Theoretically, her having a schedule or chart, perhaps that she has helped put together, to follow would be teaching higher level skills. But my son doesn't follow a schedule either, so I know what you mean. It isn't teaching anything if they won't do it. But I'm not sure having lots of little steps, all coming from Mom, is the answer either. Both of our kids are really a little too old for that, Asperger and all. I know my son would never let me dictate bunches of little steps for him. That would be a horrible fight. I have done what they are having you do--just do little, easy steps that he doesn't mind--but it doesn't lead to him doing bigger or more steps involving things that he doesn't want to do. My son's interventions have been so patchwork because my husband is not supportive and the school has not been supportive in the past that it is hard to say what might have worked. I agree keeping the demands very small and going very slow like they are suggesting is helpful. You kind of have to balance that with the real world.

>

>

>

> I'm kind of rambling! Our school is planning on taking a different approach. They are planning on going gung-ho into the schedules and lists and trying to get him to work more independently. They are assuming the "minding" part is already in place, that he just needs accommodations for the executive dysfunction and pragmatic communication problems. I know this isn't going to work the way they think, but I haven't figured out yet what to suggest instead.

>

>

>

> In my son's case, I find the "minding" problems are usually happening because he is having some kind of difficulty. Sometimes he is not even aware of the difficulty himself. So, simply trying to offer rewards like it is purely a behavior problem would never work. I have to figure out what the difficulty is and work with him on that at the same time. Often he doesn't believe me when I try to discuss the problem and solution. All I can do is the first then thing and collaborative learning so he can see for himself and get used to it. It is not as simple as discovering his challenge and finding the solution. Since he doesn't understand the challenge, he doesn't understand the solution either. The social cognitive deficits of Asperger kids lead to complications that many behaviorists don't understand, I think.

>

>

>

> I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Need to get to work! Don't know if this was any help or not. I need to think through all these issues too. I guess I'll keep at it. I think like all things, you can take some and leave some regarding the Yale people. Like all therapists, they'll be right about some things and wrong about other things. Hopefully they are not too hard-nosed and will work with you on figuring out what works for you and what doesn't and won't try to force you to follow a canned plan. That would be a shame since they have some good ideas.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Not all kids are the same, including AS kids.? So you can't say that these

techniques will work with NT kids but not AS kids since that is too broad of a

statement to make.? They may or may not work with NT kids or AS kids.? It

depends on the kid.? The reward has to be individualized in order to work.? It

has to be something that means something to the person who is getting it or else

it won't work.? For some kids, they can deal with tokens or sticker charts,

delaying a more tangible reward for the end, while other kids need real items or

rewards up front. That would be the " first/then " you are always mentioning.?

It's the same thing.? My older ds would not work for anything, which drove

teachers mad until he got one who connected with him and figured out ways to

motivate him. ? The little guy with severe autism that I used to work with

worked for gummies and tickles.? So it just is a matter of finding what is

motivating to the person you are working with.

>

> ?Roxanna

>

I noticed that too; techniques are not really a 'one fits all', nor are they

really labeled for specific disorders. I did find one thing always helpful:

Immediate reward. It doesn't say what reward nor how big it needs to be, but

depends on the child. Knowing what they want is important. One thing a child of

any age seems to do consistently is live up to their reputation. There are a lot

of details about that however that are not obvious as may seem. Do you realize

what your child's reputation is, or more specifically, what they think their

reputation is? The amazing thing is how many times I've know a parent to not

know their child's perceived reputation even though that parent gave it and

reinforces it repeatedly. As the parent you have had the most influence deciding

your child's reputation, even more than any friends they seem to hang out with

all the time. Sometimes what parent sees as discipline (scolding) is in fact a

negative influence that lead to the child believing they were " difficult to deal

with " as a reputation. They began to live up to that reputation habitually not

because they thought it would be best, but because of their natural desire to

live up to their parent's expectations. That is why the immediate, direct,

positive feedback works so well. That is also why it could take months to change

from negative to positive feedback. Both parent and child have developed deep

habits bound by previous negative experience and expectations. Change your habit

first and eventually they can change theirs!

I think the reason a points system never worked for my children (nor DW) was

because it was not immediate enough. I think even going out for ice cream " right

after " is not immediate enough for many. Ice cream is much larger a reward (in

time/cost), yet is not often as effective as immediately showing that I notice

something my child will like me to notice, such as, " You put your wrapper in the

garbage this time. Thank you " . The praise or reward can even start when the

child starts, not waiting until completion.

I thought it was funny... DW announced that she had started a new points system

using play money that seemed like a lot (i.e. 100pt bills). She said it was

working great because my youngest loves lots of money. I never heard about it

again until months later I had to ask, " How's the points thing working out? "

She didn't have much to say, just had lost the system completely. I think that

was because it was not immediate enough for her either. Of course it's also a

matter of remembering and all that discipline on the parent's part also. Keeping

interesting rewards in the box for redeeming points was a problem too, and

figuring out how many points various rewards were worth. Amazing how simple just

to be immediate and more direct. My comment about putting trash in the can was

also an example of being direct. It helped my DD associate her feeling of

accomplishment directly with the good act, not with her need to use the

computer. Now I don't live at 'home' with them and she doesn't get those simple

rewards very much at all. I noticed right away (by feedback from mom) that she

quickly and extremely intensified her need to be on the Internet or away from

home with friends. An attempt to disconnect from " home " . I could say it's simply

from the change in rewards, but I have to admit she also became a teenager at

the same time. I suppose that's part of the whole " depends on the kid " thing.

>

>

> ( ) Re: Shaping behaviors thru positive reinforcement

>

> I agree with . The general idea is good, but the giving of points is

artificial and forced. Giving her points instead of simple praise isn't adding

anything. It makes more work for you and it takes away the naturalness of the

consequence (the positive consequence of receiving praise from a parent for

considerate behavior). Personally, I think behaviorists do the point thing

because it helps THEM. It is a way for THEM to keep track of what their clients

are doing. Just my two cents!

>

And so I agree very much with this, Thank you.