Re: Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends!

[Guest guest]

You know I would try putting him on a bathroom schedule where

you make him try to go to the bathroom at certain times

of the day and he gets a sticker/point for each time

he at least tries at these times (when he wakes up, 10, 12:30, 2,

4, after dinner, etc). And keep this up at school to if they

will agree so he gets into a routine of going to the bathroom

at certain times of the day.

The idea is to shape bathroom behaviors thru a reinforcement

plan. Since he is not supervised all the time like a younger

child would be you are checking in at scheduled times. Eventually

you could have him learn to be aware of the time and

come and tell you he is going to check if he has to go

and get a point for taking initiative.

The consequence of going to the bathroom in odd places has to

be kept small according to ABA (applied behavior analysis practices).

Your only option then is to really keep to the schedule.

I do have experience with my daughter over washing her hands

like someone with OCD. So even in school she had to see the

nurse at a certain time and she reinforced as I did that

you wash but not for so long. You will want to reinforce each

scheduled time that your son is only to go to the bathroom in a bathroom.

You also want to practice at least once a night a role play

(your son will earn points for the role play) where

you tell your son will earn extra points for going to

try to go to the bathroom in the middle of doing something

really fun where he doesn't want to stop. If he

doesn't want to it is OK, the idea to put in his head

is that he will get extra points for trying to do this behavior.

You can also role play him being outside and going in to

the bathroom (when he may rather go outside).

Pam

>

>

> A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

>

> A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> not to do it again.

>

> Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> to do now?

>

> I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> just don't know what to do anymore.

>

> Vickie

>

[Guest guest]

I understand what your saying Pam and I would completely agree if this was a

situation where he was just waiting to long to go and had an " accident " . But in

this case he took the time to walk down the stairs (only a few feet from the

bathroom) find a screw driver, remove over six screws from the hinges, slide the

door open and pee in the boxes in the closet. He then procedes to put the

hinges back on the door and return the screw driver to where it belongs. There

is some weird motivation going on that I am missing the point of.

Vickie

> >

> >

> > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> >

> > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > not to do it again.

> >

> > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > to do now?

> >

> > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > just don't know what to do anymore.

> >

> > Vickie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

How about fear of or sensitive to the bathroom, something in

the bathroom or toilet or sound of the toilet flushing?

Regards, melody

[Guest guest]

For my son, I joke that if he does something one and a half times, it's a trend. It might be that he did it once out of laziness and now it's a habit. I agree about putting him on a toileting schedule, but I would not reward him for this. Going to the bathroom is a basic skill and it's not that he can't go, he's just not going in the right place. I'd give him verbal praise, but I would not give him a reward for this. To me, you'd be creating a monster if you're rewarding this very basic behavior. That's just my own preference, though.Sent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: "Melody Kalomiris" <mkalomiris@...>Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:16:52 -0700< >Subject: ( ) Re: Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends! How about fear of or sensitive to the bathroom, something inthe bathroom or toilet or sound of the toilet flushing? Regards, melody

[Guest guest]

i'm thinking maybe there is something visual that he is getting out of it?? does he like to watch it change colors? (you know what happens when a dry surface gets wet, almost like a shadow effect?) good luck with this.

From: baneline1 <baneline1@...>Subject: ( ) Re: Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends! Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 4:34 PM

I understand what your saying Pam and I would completely agree if this was a situation where he was just waiting to long to go and had an "accident". But in this case he took the time to walk down the stairs (only a few feet from the bathroom) find a screw driver, remove over six screws from the hinges, slide the door open and pee in the boxes in the closet. He then procedes to put the hinges back on the door and return the screw driver to where it belongs. There is some weird motivation going on that I am missing the point of.Vickie> >> > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:> > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids> > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9> > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood> > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at> > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A> > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in> > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A> > while

later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed> > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to> > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a> > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of> > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry> > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises> > not to do it again.> > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year> > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks. > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them> > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took> > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some> > boxes in there.

Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking> > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We> > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What> > to do now?> > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!> > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better> > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He> > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I> > just don't know what to do anymore.> > > > Vickie> >>

[Guest guest]

Vickie,

I hope you don't mind me asking this, but,,,,,is there something going on with OCD and your son? I guess I'm trying to "see" what may be making him NEED to do these things, ya know?Like kids that pick and pick at their skin or nails or whatever....even to the point of pain. Something drives them to do it.Is this what you're thinking? Does your son see a doc for this?Hope you don't mind the questions.

Hugs to you.

It really is simple. Just treat others kindly and with respect.

Robin

From: baneline1 <baneline1@...>Subject: ( ) Re: Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends! Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 3:34 PM

I understand what your saying Pam and I would completely agree if this was a situation where he was just waiting to long to go and had an "accident". But in this case he took the time to walk down the stairs (only a few feet from the bathroom) find a screw driver, remove over six screws from the hinges, slide the door open and pee in the boxes in the closet. He then procedes to put the hinges back on the door and return the screw driver to where it belongs. There is some weird motivation going on that I am missing the point of.Vickie> >> > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:> > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids> > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9> > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood> > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at> > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A> > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in> > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A> > while

later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed> > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to> > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a> > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of> > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry> > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises> > not to do it again.> > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year> > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks. > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them> > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took> > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some> > boxes in there.

Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking> > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We> > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What> > to do now?> > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!> > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better> > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He> > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I> > just don't know what to do anymore.> > > > Vickie> >>

[Guest guest]

My son had a problem with this only it wasn't with urine..it was the other. He

would do it in his pants though up until he was 4 almost 5. He would hide under

the table or in the closet and do it. Come to find out he was afraid of the

toilet. He was afraid to sit on the toilet. He would pee in it just fine, put

the other put him too close to it. It took a long time to understand that this

was the problem, it seems that they have such a hard time expressing their

feelings. So, I am wondering with your son if it could be sensory issues

concerning the toilet? I understand your frustration completely.

Sheri

>

>

> A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

>

> A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> not to do it again.

>

> Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> to do now?

>

> I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> just don't know what to do anymore.

>

> Vickie

>

[Guest guest]

I think he is always in the " I wonder what will happen if I " mode and since he

has no impulsive filters he just doesn't think through the consequenses. He is

frequently destroying things but it is definitely a " picking " kind of nervous

behavior. He does pick at everything and yes he is treated for this. It is not

OCD but he does have an Anxiety disorder.

> > >

> > >

> > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > >

> > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > not to do it again.

> > >

> > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > to do now?

> > >

> > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > >

> > > Vickie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This is an interesting thought. It is very possible that it is completely about

something sensory. I have to even wonder if it is somehow tied to masterbation.

> > >

> > >

> > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > >

> > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > not to do it again.

> > >

> > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > to do now?

> > >

> > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > >

> > > Vickie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Just an update, I am trying something new with s. I have printed up a

s's Rules and Consequences that list the 3 most important rules of the

house and what the consequences for breaking them are. The three rules I

focused on were:

1. Use the Bathroom. He is not to go to the bathroom anywhere but in the

toilet. Consequence is losing his tv for a week or more.

2. Respect others property. He may not intentionaly destroy anyones property

including the house, furniture, toys or dishes. Consequence is losing his stay

at home alone privileges (he is allowed to stay at home for the 45 minutes after

the bus drops him off until I get home instead of going to day care which he

hates).

3. Do not hurt anyone. He may not intentionally hurt or injure anyone

including his sisters. Consequense is losing his computer for at least one

week.

I have posted these listes in multiple places in the house (By his TV, Computer

and Bedroom) in hopes that he will reconsider when he decides to do something

because he was " bored " or " curious " or any of the other reasons he comes up with

for bad decisions.

Vickie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > >

> > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > > not to do it again.

> > > >

> > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > > to do now?

> > > >

> > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Vickie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've tried this with our daughter and I also tried posting, "Did you ask for permission" as a reminder. She started ripping them down :-( Any suggestions?? On Apr 6, 2010, at 10:32 AM, baneline1 wrote:

Just an update, I am trying something new with s. I have printed up a s's Rules and Consequences that list the 3 most important rules of the house and what the consequences for breaking them are. The three rules I focused on were:

1. Use the Bathroom. He is not to go to the bathroom anywhere but in the toilet. Consequence is losing his tv for a week or more.

2. Respect others property. He may not intentionaly destroy anyones property including the house, furniture, toys or dishes. Consequence is losing his stay at home alone privileges (he is allowed to stay at home for the 45 minutes after the bus drops him off until I get home instead of going to day care which he hates).

3. Do not hurt anyone. He may not intentionally hurt or injure anyone including his sisters. Consequense is losing his computer for at least one week.

I have posted these listes in multiple places in the house (By his TV, Computer and Bedroom) in hopes that he will reconsider when he decides to do something because he was "bored" or "curious" or any of the other reasons he comes up with for bad decisions.

Vickie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > >

> > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > > not to do it again.

> > > >

> > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > > to do now?

> > > >

> > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Vickie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

“Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.” - Steve Jobs

[Guest guest]

Here is what I learned from our behaviorist to change behavior

you have to shape it. Over and over you need to shape and

reinforce that the only place to go to the bathroom

is in the bathroom regardless of the reasons he is doing this.

And there has to be some mild consequence for going to the

bathroom elsewhere regardless of the reason.

Whatever his motivation for going to the bathroom in odd places

it does not matter, he has to have it in his head this is

only one place to go and that is the bathroom. So many

times during the day you have to keep reinforcing that thought

(tell him remember there is only one place to go to the

bathroom and that is the bathroom). This strategy works

for kids with various kinds of anxieties and OCD issues.

It is a exposure therapy for these kids.

Now another possible reason is he has some compulsion or

some pyschosis where he thinks he has to urinate on things.

My daughter thinks she has to bite my hand if I use my

index finger to point. It is a very weird compulsion that

gets a mild consequence. So far zoloft has reduced the

intensity of this behavior. I suppose if the behavior continues

you could talk to a psychiatrist about trying a very low

dose of rispedal which is an antipyschotic drug but has

been tested with AS kids to mostly reduce outbursts and

aggressive behavior. You could fairly easily trial the

medication for a month and see if this helps and if you

would want to continue with the medication. However

lots of kids do gain weight on rispedal. It may

not be a long term medication of choice but it is worth

a trial if this very unacceptable behavior continues.

You did not mention that he had anxiety but if he does

than a SSRI like zoloft would be the first trial of medication.

Pam

> > >

> > >

> > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > >

> > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > not to do it again.

> > >

> > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > to do now?

> > >

> > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > >

> > > Vickie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, he is on Zoloft for Anxiety. My thought process at this point is to see if

the Rules/Consequences works. If not he will lose his TV and I will then start

a schedule for bathroom breaks. I am not looking foreward to doing this because

it will cause a lot of stress in my house. He will get agressive. By taking

away the TV I will take away his main reason for being upstairs which is where

the urinating was happening. My quess is then he will spend more time

downstairs where his computer and the family tv is. This will make going on a

bathroom schedule easier. I guess that I believe that he is capable of not

doing this but he needs to have some strong reason to not give in to this

compulsion. His desire to have his TV will hopefully give him the motivation.

Thank you for your input. I needed to take a step back and try to realize what

was causing this behavior so I could work on a plan to change it. Your input

was very helpful.

Vickie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > >

> > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > > not to do it again.

> > > >

> > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > > to do now?

> > > >

> > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Vickie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, did she break the rules or just rip down the sign? I guess that I

wouldn't worry to much about the signs being ripped down as long as s

follows the rules. The sign is just there for a visual reminder (Visual

reminders have always been good for s). If he doesn't want the sign there

I don't care but that will not change the consequences.

Vickie

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked

at

> > > > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that.

A

> > > > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom

in

> > > > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments.

A

> > > > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his

bed

> > > > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very

sorry

> > > > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and

promises

> > > > > > not to do it again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on

them

> > > > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or

took

> > > > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than

walking

> > > > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop.

What

> > > > > > to do now?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years

old!

> > > > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property.

He

> > > > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vickie

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> " Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the

round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're

not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify

them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change

things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the

crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that

they can change the world, are the ones who do. " - Steve Jobs

>

[Guest guest]

She ripped down the sign because she doesn't want the reminder even though she needs it.On Apr 6, 2010, at 12:11 PM, baneline1 wrote:

, did she break the rules or just rip down the sign? I guess that I wouldn't worry to much about the signs being ripped down as long as s follows the rules. The sign is just there for a visual reminder (Visual reminders have always been good for s). If he doesn't want the sign there I don't care but that will not change the consequences.

Vickie

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at

> > > > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in

> > > > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A

> > > > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed

> > > > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > > > > not to do it again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them

> > > > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took

> > > > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking

> > > > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > > > > to do now?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old!

> > > > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vickie

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> "Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do." - Steve Jobs

>

“Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.” - Steve Jobs

[Guest guest]

Vickie, does your son always pee somewhere outside a bathroom? Has he always done this? Does he use the bathroom at school?

Reggi Levinreggi@...

From: baneline1 <baneline1@...> Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 1:03:55 PMSubject: ( ) Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends!

A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9 year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises not

to do it again.

Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks. We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What to do now?

I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years old! All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Vickie

[Guest guest]

No he uses the bathroom just fine 99% of the time. I believe that this is some

sort of weird compulsion that hits him sometimes.

Vickie

>

>

>

> Vickie, does your son always pee somewhere outside a bathroom?  Has he always

done this?  Does he use the bathroom at school?

>

>

>

>  Reggi Levin

> reggi@...

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: baneline1 <baneline1@...>

>

> Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 1:03:55 PM

> Subject: ( ) Another one of those bang your head against the

wall weekends!

>

>  

> A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids playroom. 

Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9 year old aspie was

urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood floors which then turned

black).  Well we cleaned that up and talked at great length to DS about not

doing this again and why and all that.  A few months later we notice that he

has started to pee in his bedroom in the corner.  Again we got angry and did

more talking and punishments.  A while later and we find that he has unrinated

in a drawer under his bed (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case

you wanted to know).  More talking, more yelling and punishments.   Next it

was a drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board).  Lots of

talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats.  DS appears very sorry every

time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises not to do it

again.

> Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year ago. 

But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.  We have some

dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them to keep the kids

out.  Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took the hinges off the door

to get into the closet and urinated in some boxes in there.  Obviously this is

not easier for him to do than walking down the stairs and into the bathroom so

what is the motivation?  We cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get

him to stop.  What to do now? 

> I am frustrated and disgusted with this.  He is almost twelve years old! 

All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better which in the

long run causes more damage to my house and property.  He has virtually no

furniture left because it has all been destroyed.  I just don't know what to do

anymore. 

> Vickie

>

[Guest guest]

If this is the case, then it seems to me that it would be useful to identify what triggers this behavior. This may be difficult because he hides it due to shame and/or punishment.

I'm thinking that it might be useful to approach this like an uncontrollable anxiety behavior, like hair pulling, etc. First, find out what the trigger is, then use either desensitization or trigger avoidance to extinguish the behavior.

Would this work? Allocate a non-toilet place for peeing, like a bucket or box in a closet (put in one of those pads that they use for dogs to pee on indoors or poise pads?). In fact, as long as its in the bucket or box, you could let him put it wherever he wants (within limits, of course). Remove all punishments from the behavior. Every time he pees outside the bathroom, try to get some information about it, like time of day, what was happening at the time, his mood. If he can keep the journal, great. (to make the documentation easy, maybe use icons for him to circle to represent mood). If he's willing to tell you he just did it, then you can do the recording.

Maybe incent the recording, too. Like he gets an extra half our of tv on the weekends for timely record keeping on the behavior that week. (And in order to not inadvertantly incent the non-bathroom peeing, maybe have him record when he wanted to pee outside the bathroom, but didn't. What did he think or do that helped him decide to pee in the bathroom.) If he is motivated to stop, then incenting the record keeping may not be neccessary.

If your son is old enough and sees the peeing as a something he wishes he didn't do, then you can talk to him about this approach. That would get you all on the same side in this, you'd all be working together to figure out why he does it and to give him some strategies to stop. Tell him something like he's a great kid, you love him absolutely, but this behavior destroys stuff and you are concerned that this behavior will follow him to college or to his own home. You'd like to help him figure out what makes him do it, and then figure out how to stop it. Would he like that? Would he let you help him do this? This gives him some control and responsibility towards figuring out the solution.

Reggi Levinreggi@...

From: baneline1 <baneline1@...> Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 9:50:44 AMSubject: Re: ( ) Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends!

No he uses the bathroom just fine 99% of the time. I believe that this is some sort of weird compulsion that hits him sometimes.Vickie>> > > Vickie, does your son always pee somewhere outside a bathroom? Has he always done this?  Does he use the bathroom at school?> > > >  Reggi Levin> reggi@... > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> From: baneline1 <baneline1@. ..>> > Sent: Mon, April 5,

2010 1:03:55 PM> Subject: ( ) Another one of those bang your head against the wall weekends!> >  > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:> A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9 year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked at great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom in the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments. A while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his bed (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to know). More talking, more yelling and punishments.  Next it was a

drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises not to do it again.> Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks. We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on them to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or took the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than walking down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What to do now? > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years

old! All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I just don't know what to do anymore. > Vickie>

[Guest guest]

Vickie:

I was reading through your posts, and thought of something when you mentioned

that he will get agressive (and how someone mentioned that the daughter would

tear down the rules/reminders)... Since he is almost 12, perhaps it might work

for him to help you come up with the rules, rewards, and consequences. Right

now, he may feel like this is a behavior that is " out of his control " (i.e., he

doesn't know why he's doing it, he knows he's not supposed to, but he doesn't

feel like he can stop)... or perhaps he feels it is the one thing in his life he

can control (where he goes)... In either case, empowering him to come up with

the rules/rewards/consequences may help him remember the agreements he made.

Perhaps you could also ask him where he thinks it would be helpful for the

reminders to be posted. Maybe he can write/type up the

rules/rewards/consequences and use clip art or drawings to create the visual

aids that will help him remember. Be open to things being worded " differently "

than you would word them, and make allowances for rewards/consequences (within

reason) that you may not have thought of previously.

Another thing that works with my son (he's 6) is to remind him that this is for

his benefit, and I'm on his team. I ask him what he thinks I can/should do to

help him. Then, when I'm going to remind him of something, " I ask, can I remind

you about something we talked about? " or " Do you need help remembering? " If

he's really upset, he'll say, " No, " but, if we begin the conversation BEFORE the

meltdown begins, we can usually avoid the meltdown AND the situation!

I guess my suggestion is that you help him become part of and help him see

himself as part of the solution, which is much more empowering and reinforcing

than being told what to do and seeing yourself as the reason the " problem "

exists in the first place.

Hope this helps!

Gladys

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > > >

> > > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked

at

> > > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom

in

> > > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments.

A

> > > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his

bed

> > > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > > > not to do it again.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on

them

> > > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or

took

> > > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than

walking

> > > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > > > to do now?

> > > > >

> > > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years

old!

> > > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vickie

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I know it is stressful to put these plans in place. Our behaviorist would

probably say " not " to take the TV totally

away but to have him have to earn chucks of time

each time he goes to the bathroom on schedule and just

lose a small amount of time as a consequence so that

you don't escalate him. So you shape him trying to go often

in the bathroom (this is shaping with positive reinforcement).

If you take away the TV as a consequence for going to the

bathroom elsewhere have him earn it

back the next day by sticking to his schedule.

Did I already mention that my daughter does wierd stuff I

can't figure out too? She bites my hand sometimes if

it bothers her how I point or how my hand is shaped.

It makes no sense at all. Our behavorist didn't

care to figure it out she just said give her a consequence for

it! It is such a low rate behavior that it continues.

We have so many other issues (school attendance, staying to

her schedule, transitioning etc) that we are working on that

this doesn't get much attention.

So hopefully this is the only issue with behavior?

Pam

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > A little recap of one of my problems with my son:

> > > > >

> > > > > A few years ago we started to notice the smell of urine in my kids

> > > > > playroom. Afte some investigation we figured out that my then 8 or 9

> > > > > year old aspie was urinating in one of the corners (onto my hardwood

> > > > > floors which then turned black). Well we cleaned that up and talked

at

> > > > > great length to DS about not doing this again and why and all that. A

> > > > > few months later we notice that he has started to pee in his bedroom

in

> > > > > the corner. Again we got angry and did more talking and punishments.

A

> > > > > while later and we find that he has unrinated in a drawer under his

bed

> > > > > (particle board works like a spunge for urine in case you wanted to

> > > > > know). More talking, more yelling and punishments. Next it was a

> > > > > drawer in his beside table (again with the particle board). Lots of

> > > > > talking, yelling, punishments and dire threats. DS appears very sorry

> > > > > every time and apologizes and bemoans how terrible he is and promises

> > > > > not to do it again.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well we thought that we had finally stopped all of this about a year

> > > > > ago. But, alas, we discovered that he is still up to his old tricks.

> > > > > We have some dormer attic closets in his bedroom that have locks on

them

> > > > > to keep the kids out. Well somehow or other he picked the locks or

took

> > > > > the hinges off the door to get into the closet and urinated in some

> > > > > boxes in there. Obviously this is not easier for him to do than

walking

> > > > > down the stairs and into the bathroom so what is the motivation? We

> > > > > cannot get him to explain and apparently cannot get him to stop. What

> > > > > to do now?

> > > > >

> > > > > I am frustrated and disgusted with this. He is almost twelve years

old!

> > > > > All our efforts to stop this have only caused him to hide it better

> > > > > which in the long run causes more damage to my house and property. He

> > > > > has virtually no furniture left because it has all been destroyed. I

> > > > > just don't know what to do anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vickie

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>