Supplements

[Guest guest]

Trudy

Try to get the CONCENTRATE. My supermarket now carries it at $13.00 per

quart.

In a message dated 6/26/02 10:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

tnew@... writes:

> Hi mjh,

>

> Yes, that is EXACTLY what I do! " ...swill it down and follow with a

> couple glasses of water. " ;-) LOL

>

> It really is easier to take this way, though. I will definitely look

> into the cherry juice. ...I might get my cherry flavored supplements

> yet! ;-) LOL

>

> Kind regards,

> Trudy

>

[Guest guest]

Trudy

If you don't see mold and the aroma is ok, it's ok. This stuff is full of

antioxidants which prolongs shelf life.

mjh

In a message dated 6/28/02 12:49:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

tnew@... writes:

> Hi mjh,

>

> You reminded me that I had some cherry concentrate in the fridge. Do

> you know how long that stuff is good for? Mine has been in the fridge

> for quite a few months now. Nevertheless, I did try it with my

> evening dose of supplements. While it did help, it was still baaaaad!

> ;-) LOL

>

> Kind regards,

> Trudy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi mjh,

You reminded me that I had some cherry concentrate in the fridge. Do

you know how long that stuff is good for? Mine has been in the fridge

for quite a few months now. Nevertheless, I did try it with my

evening dose of supplements. While it did help, it was still baaaaad!

;-) LOL

Kind regards,

Trudy

Message: 13

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:58:09 EDT

From: foxhillers@...

Subject: Re: Supplements

Trudy

Try to get the CONCENTRATE. My supermarket now carries it at

$13.00 per quart.

[Guest guest]

You might consider flaxseed oil (1-2 tbsp daily). This has helped me with

the pain and swelling. It is a natural lubricant for the joints. Try it.

Also, be careful taking all of those. Be sure to check with an MD and make

sure the herbal remedies aren't acting against some of the prescription

ones. In addition, MSN is supposed to be wonderful--if you aren't alergic

to sulfa. I am so I can' take it!. The Arthritis Foundation has a

publication called " Supplement Guide " It is free to members and has some

great info about supplements.

>From: " txtwin2002 " <ttktrick@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: [ ] supplements

>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:39:14 -0000

>

>in additin to my meds which consist of

>prednisone,mtx,bextra,miacalcin,folic acid and enbrel. i started on

>triple omega, green barley grass,glucosamine chondroitin

>msn,colostrum. i just wanted to know any feed back to see if these

>were good. i just started them. i also bought dhea but it said on the

>bottle that people with auto immune disorders should consult a

>doctor so i have not started it. also would it be better for me to

>take these at night. taking all those pills in the morning seem to

>bother me. i do not want to over do it but i figured all these could

>not hurt. i ordered them from puritans pride and were not expensive

>but i was wondering if i should start the dhea. i will ask my doctor

>next month but any feedback would be great. kyle

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search...

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[Guest guest]

wrote:

i started on

triple omega, green barley grass,glucosamine chondroitin

msn,colostrum.

-

My only suggestion would be to not start all these supplements at once but

add a new one every couple of weeks. This way you'll be able to tell if a

particular supplement is useful or if you have a side effect from one of

them. If you begin taking them all at once you won't have a clear idea

which, if any, is helpful or not. Just a suggestion.

_________________________________________________________________

Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95.

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[Guest guest]

I've only been taking my L-Arginine for less than a week and the Maca

since Saturday so I think it's too early for me too see results. But I

know one thing, that Maca is very hard to take. Jack, if yours came

like mine did in a plastic bag, it has a ton of " rocks " in it. I can't

get it ground up fine enough to keep from swallowing chunks of it when

I put it in my smoothie.

>

> Hi guys I just got my first order of maca powder also l-

> arginine,indoplx Dim can some one please tell me any + or -

experince

> you got thanks inadvance.

> I am really exciated about maca heard a lot good about it does it

> really help production of sperm though and how is it so? Also dim is

> it okay to take eventhough your E2 is about 30 = good .But on the

> other hand if I understand it correctly it helps boost your free T

> avalabilty please say it is so.Thanks guys and will post my lab

> results when I get it next week. Jack

[Guest guest]

---hey brad thanks but that sucks I am worried now what else might

be in it I know it coming from raintree.com are they okay or do you

know any other minor or anything at all what else is involve here oh

man never thought about that now you got me thinking might as well

tried it though and you guys know about it.

In , " bradtace1 " <ace1965@c...> wrote:

>

> I've only been taking my L-Arginine for less than a week and the

Maca

> since Saturday so I think it's too early for me too see results.

But I

> know one thing, that Maca is very hard to take. Jack, if yours

came

> like mine did in a plastic bag, it has a ton of " rocks " in it. I

can't

> get it ground up fine enough to keep from swallowing chunks of it

when

> I put it in my smoothie.

>

> >

> > Hi guys I just got my first order of maca powder also l-

> > arginine,indoplx Dim can some one please tell me any + or -

> experince

> > you got thanks inadvance.

> > I am really exciated about maca heard a lot good about it does

it

> > really help production of sperm though and how is it so? Also

dim is

> > it okay to take eventhough your E2 is about 30 = good .But on

the

> > other hand if I understand it correctly it helps boost your free

T

> > avalabilty please say it is so.Thanks guys and will post my lab

> > results when I get it next week. Jack

[Guest guest]

Be very careful with calcium. I have had, in two separate ocassions,

heart problems after taking calcium supplements for a few months. There

is a school of thought that calcium greatly contributes to the harmful

lining of the arteries. There are chelation methods that can help clear

the arteries of the calcium, but they take weeks and months to do (the

MDs prefer roto-rootering the arteries, not to speak of the 1 to 2% who

don't survive the surgery, or the 8 to 25% who end up with minor strokes

from clogging of the arteries or blood vessels in the brain following

the procedures. Check out angioplasty and personality changes.)

In general, men don't need much calcium, and we can get what we need in

meats and green leafy vegetables. I can't speak to what women need,

since there is an increased need for calcium, but calcium supplements

may or may not be the way to go. Most dairy products don't help the

calcium need, contrary to the TV ads. Juicing is probably an excellent

way to get calcium.

Dave

golfegg1 wrote:

>

> I just wanted to say something about all the supplement talk that's

> been going on in here. You can't add a few supplements, and expect

> great results. This has been known for a long time. The goal is a

> complete diet. For instance you have to have magnesium to absorb

> calcium. If you add calcium to the diet without magnesium, you will

> become low in magnesium. In the end you will worse than before. This

> is the way it is for all supplements. So the key is to have a complete

> balanced diet. One of the best and easiest ways is through juicing.

> Juice fruits and vegies for the complete mix. You can pack a lot of

> food into a glass, plus they come with the enzymes needed to digest

> and absorb it all. You can't improve on what God has made for us to

> eat.

>

[Guest guest]

Plus too in regards to calcium. I know taking it by itself in

supplement form causes my joints to ache. I am double jointed and

have an autoimmune disease, dunno if that plays into it or not. I

have read that cancer cells are coated with calcium plaques said to

be as a mechanism to protect itself. It is reported to be like the

calcium deposits found in atherosclerotic tissue and in psoratic

tissue. db

>

> >

> > I just wanted to say something about all the supplement talk

that's

> > been going on in here. You can't add a few supplements, and

expect

> > great results. This has been known for a long time. The goal is a

> > complete diet. For instance you have to have magnesium to absorb

> > calcium. If you add calcium to the diet without magnesium, you

will

> > become low in magnesium. In the end you will worse than before.

This

> > is the way it is for all supplements. So the key is to have a

complete

> > balanced diet. One of the best and easiest ways is through

juicing.

> > Juice fruits and vegies for the complete mix. You can pack a lot

of

> > food into a glass, plus they come with the enzymes needed to

digest

> > and absorb it all. You can't improve on what God has made for us

to

> > eat.

> >

[Guest guest]

Can you send the link to the research on the Calcium on the outside of the

cancer cells????

Dottie

[Guest guest]

Donna

My son had aggressive bladder cancer and one of the urologists we saw

complimented him on his strong immune system. Why? Because the tumors were

mostly

encysted, the immune system's way of walling off the cancer's growth. This old

gent has now retired.... shucks.

The calcium bit suggests an imbalance with MAGNESIUM. Probably not enough Mg

in the diet or via supplementation. When folks have heart attacks, they

don't chelate in ER, they give IV Epsom salts (Mg SO4).

When my son was hypercalcemic last summer, prior to surgery, I gave him small

amounts of MoM plus liquid trace minerals hourly to avoid both stroke, heart

attack as well as seizures. Did the trick. Our family doc called to warn me

of the possibilities and suggested I pull out my bag of tricks.

There are a couple of excellent books on the overlooked and underestimated

importance of Magnesium. A couple of great websites, too. Search away!

mjh

> Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:18:54 -0000

> From: " Donna " <donnadbd777@...>

> Subject: Re: Supplements

>

>

> Plus too in regards to calcium. I know taking it by itself in

> supplement form causes my joints to ache. I am double jointed and

> have an autoimmune disease, dunno if that plays into it or not. I

> have read that cancer cells are coated with calcium plaques said to

> be as a mechanism to protect itself. It is reported to be like the

> calcium deposits found in atherosclerotic tissue and in psoratic

> tissue. db

>

>

> >

> >Be very careful with calcium. I have had, in two separate

> ocassions,

> >heart problems after taking calcium supplements for a few months.

> There

> >is a school of thought that calcium greatly contributes to the

> harmful

> >lining of the arteries.

[Guest guest]

> Can you send the link to the research on the Calcium on the outside of the

> cancer cells????

> Dottie

-- Dottie this might be a good place to start:

http://www.askbillsardi.com/sdm.asp?pg=cal_cancer

Regards,

Gubi

[Guest guest]

> have read that cancer cells are coated with calcium plaques said to be

> as a mechanism to protect itself. It is reported to be like the

> calcium deposits found in atherosclerotic tissue and in psoratic

> tissue. db

>

>

> >

> > Be very careful with calcium. I have had, in two separate

> ocassions,

> > heart problems after taking calcium supplements for a few months.

> There

> > is a school of thought that calcium greatly contributes to the

> harmful

> > lining of the arteries.

Here's how the school of thought on calcium supplementation may have

missed the boat: Once calcium is absorbed it still has to be

complexed with the body's mineral transporters, aspartic and then

orotic acid, in order to be placed correctly inside the cells. If the

body is making insufficient quantities, the calcium (and minerals)

can be combined with the mineral transporters before you take it.

That being said, taking too much calcium is almost the same as

provoking a magnesium deficiency (skipped heartbeats etc). All the

minerals are important, and in cancer, potassium is one to watch too.

This kind of thing is explained quite well in Dr. Haltiwanger

M.D.'s monograph The Electrical Properties Of Cancer Cells:

htp://royalrife.com/haltiwanger.html

All Dr. Haltiwanger's articles are brilliant.

Dr. Haltiwanger is also the scientific advisor for LifeWave

Energy Patches. With attention to the ATP (Krebs Energy) cycle in

cancer therapy for example, it has been shown from several sources

that as ATP increases, (an aerobic process) cancer cells have to

redifferentiate or repair and tumours reduce.

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

Three " supplements " are indeed as potent as any " medication " or

hormone marketed as a drug. DIM would bring up a close 4th place

from the sound of it, although I have no personal experience with it.

I have found DHEA gel to work exactly as 2% testosterone gel in a 6

month DHEA gel / 6 month T-gel one year comparison. (None of the

differences pointed out between DHEA & testosterone are in fact

differences - both convert to E2 under some circumstances, both raise

energy levels, libido, cause acne etc etc)

The other " supplement " therapy is ALC/ALA (acetyl-l-carnitine paired

with alpha lipoic acid). Carnitine has proven more effective in

reversing sexual dysfunction (low libido, depression, ED) than

testosterone in a study of 120 men. It does not work by increasing

testosterone levels, but works independently of testosterone, by

action not entirely understood by researchers. It repairs damaged

neural pathways on a cellular level as well as slowing degenerative

age-related tissue damage.

High dose ALC/ALA therapy restored my husband's libido, nocturnal and

spontaneous erections and erectile sexual function to normal from

long-term total shut-down a year ago. I am not exaggerating. The

only other 3 men I know of who have followed this therapy at correct

continuous dosage levels over a period of time have also seen

dramatic results.

I grant these " supplements " are in the vast minority. They are also

prescribed incorrectly by the vitamin hawkers who sell them. For

instance, dhea is 30 times more effective with less danger of organ

damage when taken by non-oral means, yet the label directions are to

take by mouth. ALC/ALA's label directives are for a daily dose

approximately 1/8th of the large dose required to improve sexual

function.

I installed updated versions of the ALC/ALA therapy & supporting

research in the FILES section of this group's homepage in both text

and html (opens with internet explorer) formats for anyone who is

interested.

[Guest guest]

, what is the exact dosage of ALC/ALA that your husband is taking and are

there any dangerous side affects at that level? Can you recommend any specific

brand of ALC/ALA? Also, what brand or type of DHEA gel is your husband taking?

Thanks.

Re: Supplements

Three " supplements " are indeed as potent as any " medication " or

hormone marketed as a drug. DIM would bring up a close 4th place

from the sound of it, although I have no personal experience with it.

I have found DHEA gel to work exactly as 2% testosterone gel in a 6

month DHEA gel / 6 month T-gel one year comparison. (None of the

differences pointed out between DHEA & testosterone are in fact

differences - both convert to E2 under some circumstances, both raise

energy levels, libido, cause acne etc etc)

The other " supplement " therapy is ALC/ALA (acetyl-l-carnitine paired

with alpha lipoic acid). Carnitine has proven more effective in

reversing sexual dysfunction (low libido, depression, ED) than

testosterone in a study of 120 men. It does not work by increasing

testosterone levels, but works independently of testosterone, by

action not entirely understood by researchers. It repairs damaged

neural pathways on a cellular level as well as slowing degenerative

age-related tissue damage.

High dose ALC/ALA therapy restored my husband's libido, nocturnal and

spontaneous erections and erectile sexual function to normal from

long-term total shut-down a year ago. I am not exaggerating. The

only other 3 men I know of who have followed this therapy at correct

continuous dosage levels over a period of time have also seen

dramatic results.

I grant these " supplements " are in the vast minority. They are also

prescribed incorrectly by the vitamin hawkers who sell them. For

instance, dhea is 30 times more effective with less danger of organ

damage when taken by non-oral means, yet the label directions are to

take by mouth. ALC/ALA's label directives are for a daily dose

approximately 1/8th of the large dose required to improve sexual

function.

I installed updated versions of the ALC/ALA therapy & supporting

research in the FILES section of this group's homepage in both text

and html (opens with internet explorer) formats for anyone who is

interested.

[Guest guest]

,

RE: " I installed updated versions of the ALC/ALA therapy & supporting

research in the FILES section of this group's homepage in both text

and html (opens with internet explorer) formats for anyone who is

interested. "

Thanks.

That is the very type of material that I have been slowly researching

over the last several weeks.

I also found the clinical study on Carnitine to be very interesting.

Like you reported, it " has proven more effective in reversing sexual

dysfunction (low libido, depression, ED) than testosterone in a study

of 120 men. It does not work by increasing testosterone levels, but

works independently of testosterone, by action not entirely understood

by researchers... "

It would be interesting to see if the mechanism by which Carnitine

worked was by binding to SHBG and thereby freeing up considerable

levels of Free T (as it appears that at least a couple of herbal

substances seem to do - more on that with later information).

And, yes, the methodology of clinical trials and then what gets

offered to the consumer is frustrating. Buying the specific type of

carnitine and then discovering that the test subjects took eight TIMES

that dosage is, well, frustrating.

Or to find out that certain clinical trials usedIM or IV shots of a

certain product - but it's only available OTC in much weaker doses and

orally (when it's known that oral administration destroys the active

component!).

It reminds me of a clinical trial of an animal study that I found on

Maca that appeared to show not just strong, but extremely strong

indications of Maca having quite strong pro-libido effects. Then I

found that the maker's of a particular Maca extract were sponsoring

the test. And then I found that the test was actually performed by a

small staff in Communist China. And then I found that extremely high

doses were used in the animals (lab mice). The two doses that were

used with the mice were the equivalent of 125 grams to 300 grams for a

150 pound male (that's right, grams and NOT milligrams).

So, practical at that rate... nope. But then it got me thinking that

possibly the anecdotal stories about Maca benefits still may have some

merit. Could it be possible that taking 3 grams of Maca a day over

several months could build up that same effect?

After all, many other herbals / supplements - especially adaptogens

like ginseng and rhodiola roscea - have results that gradually and

mildly build up over a long period of supplement consumption.

Once again, thanks for posting that info.

Larry

P.S. As to DHEA, unfortunately there's a lot in Congress who are

agreeing with how strong it is and the ball is really rolling as to

getting it included with the other banned prohormones. I have been

going round and round with a couple of my Federal reps on this issue

and they are all getting behind this stance of " stopping the abuse of

androgenic substances " . I fear by this time next year that GHEA will

be available only by prescription.

> Three " supplements " are indeed as potent as any " medication " or

> hormone marketed as a drug. DIM would bring up a close 4th place

> from the sound of it, although I have no personal experience with it.

>

> I have found DHEA gel to work exactly as 2% testosterone gel in a 6

> month DHEA gel / 6 month T-gel one year comparison. (None of the

> differences pointed out between DHEA & testosterone are in fact

> differences - both convert to E2 under some circumstances, both raise

> energy levels, libido, cause acne etc etc)

>

> The other " supplement " therapy is ALC/ALA (acetyl-l-carnitine paired

> with alpha lipoic acid). Carnitine has proven more effective in

> reversing sexual dysfunction (low libido, depression, ED) than

> testosterone in a study of 120 men. It does not work by increasing

> testosterone levels, but works independently of testosterone, by

> action not entirely understood by researchers. It repairs damaged

> neural pathways on a cellular level as well as slowing degenerative

> age-related tissue damage.

>

> High dose ALC/ALA therapy restored my husband's libido, nocturnal and

> spontaneous erections and erectile sexual function to normal from

> long-term total shut-down a year ago. I am not exaggerating. The

> only other 3 men I know of who have followed this therapy at correct

> continuous dosage levels over a period of time have also seen

> dramatic results.

>

> I grant these " supplements " are in the vast minority. They are also

> prescribed incorrectly by the vitamin hawkers who sell them. For

> instance, dhea is 30 times more effective with less danger of organ

> damage when taken by non-oral means, yet the label directions are to

> take by mouth. ALC/ALA's label directives are for a daily dose

> approximately 1/8th of the large dose required to improve sexual

> function.

>

> I installed updated versions of the ALC/ALA therapy & supporting

> research in the FILES section of this group's homepage in both text

> and html (opens with internet explorer) formats for anyone who is

> interested.

[Guest guest]

, what is the exact dosage of

ALC/ALA that your husband is taking and are there any dangerous side

affects at that level? Can you recommend any specific brand of

ALC/ALA? ---

I really recommend opening the file because all the answers to your

questions are there in detail.

Except possibly a more direct answer to tyour side effects question.

Researchers have been looking at ALC and ALA for many diff health

applications and some animal experimentaion was done at extremely

high doses (ie trying to determine overdose reactions) as well as on

human patients at doses up to 6 grams of ALC and over 3 grams ALA

with no cases on record of serious side effects.

There are some minor side effects - most people complain of acid

stomach, burning, from ALA, but if taken with tums, milk, and or food

almost everyone says this solves the problem.

The only serious side effect is the possibility that ALC/ALA can

cause a seizure in those with a history of seizure activity. Thus

caution and doctor's supervision is recommended in this instance.

To access the file go to the homepage

/

sign in

click on FILES in left hand column

click on CarnitineVsTestosteroneAndOtherStudies.html

or the .txt version if the above fails to open for you.

If anyone still can't access the FILES section with these directions

I can paste the thing into a message or a private email, but it saves

bandwidth not to, and it is easier to view as an html document.

----Also, what brand or type of DHEA gel is your husband taking?-----

He isn't and hasn't. The testamonial in this case was my own (female

HRT) and my reference to dhea *gel* was a mistype. I insert dhea gel

caps vaginally and confused this with my 2% *testosterone* gel which

I compared it to. Obviously this means of application aint gonna

work for you guys <grin> but I have no doubt that a dhea gel would

accomplish the same result.

The digestive process destroys 97% (literally) of DHEA taken orally.

I think 33% is available when applied to the skin (more of course via

mucus membrane). I think the DHEA I have is GNC, as their products

did well in independent consumer testing.

If you are doing well on T-gel TRT and have med coverage for it, I'm

not recommending switching. No point in fixing what aint broke as

they say. I had problems with my insurance funding my script for T-

gel and buying testosterone (controlled substance) via the net was

nerve-racking, so I was seeking an alternate source of androgenic

replacement.

Also I do realize that TRT for men is problematic in many ways, and

DHEA would be just as much so in these same areas, aromatization to

estradiol, testicular atrophy, and others that escape me at the

moment.

Let me know if you still need the ALC/ALA info and I'll post it.

[Guest guest]

It would be interesting to see if the mechanism by which Carnitine

worked was by binding to SHBG and thereby freeing up considerable

levels of Free T ----

I have wondered too, along similar lines, if carnitine perhaps allows

available testosterone to be utilized more efficiently, by that or

some other means involving optimizing the receptor cells.

(Obviously fixing the neural pathways and their effect on the

vascular system explains how ED is reversed.)

-----And, yes, the methodology of clinical trials and then what gets

offered to the consumer is frustrating. Buying the specific type of

carnitine and then discovering that the test subjects took eight TIMES

that dosage is, well, frustrating.------

You make a lot of good points.

It is hard to share this wonder cure with people because many will

not commit to trying a mega-dose of a product labelled with a smaller

recommended dose, and many give up if immediate results are not

seen. (Not that this would work for every man. I suspect those with

ED of a psychologically nature and possibly those with problems from

sexual side effects of other meds or those severely in need of TRT

would probably not see such a good outcome.)

I haven't seen much reliable info on MACA as anything other than a

vitamin supplement. But without research at very high doses and/or

for a sustained period of time, there is no way to know. I know that

the pharmaceutical houses extract and synthesize their meds from

plenty of these plants that are harvested " as is " and toted by

supplement sellers as having certain properties found only in a

concentrated medicinal derivative, often of only a particular

subspecies of that plant.

---P.S. As to DHEA, unfortunately there's a lot in Congress who are

agreeing with how strong it is and the ball is really rolling as to

getting it included with the other banned prohormones. -------

I wouldn't worry too much until it happens. Similar bills have been

defeated in the past. (I have a stockpile of the stuff in case

though!) The DEA doesn't want another substance added to their list

of " controlled substances " to police. They are having enough trouble

keeping tabs on existing steroids.

I'm more concerned with recent concerted attempts to discredit

current use of TRT in men and to prevent it altogether in women.

But it's hard to know how the economic power struggle will play out.

The bill in congress will be pushed by the public, but pulled apart

by the " natural supplement " industry millions and the over-stretched

budget and manpower of the DEA, while the pharmaceutical giants

probably stand aside since it is not their product under threat. I

don't know enough about sports and their regulatory agencies to know

or predict where they will weigh in.

We'll see, but I'm more threatened by the testosterone police than

the DHEA would-be regulators. Of course with my luck they'll

probably both be banned.

If things get truly desperate I can always implement plan E: shooting

or trapping small animals, excising and drying their testicles into a

powder. Nope, have not yet resorted this grisly plan, but necessity

is the mother of invention and desperation leads to desperate

measures. (I'm kidding of course...sort of.)

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the small animals tip!

LOL

Of course I would need to find quite a few small animals in my case!

I had that one study bookmarked but didn't get a chance to pull it up

until today:

http://www.med-psych.net/modules/news/article.php?item_id=650

" Carnitine versus androgen administration in the treatment of sexual

dysfunction "

Perfect example of concerns with clinical testings. I of course don't

know these researchers and have no reason to doubt their integrity and

no reason to believe that this test was not conducted in a completely

" straight up " fashion. But that said, I have also always been told to

be cautious when research or studies or trails, etc., were conducted

by or sponsored by individuals or entities who have some type of

vested interest (i.e., either a commercial interest, a philosophical

interest or a personal agenda).

That's why I made mental note of the the abstract's title information:

QUOTE: Urology Volume 63, Issue 4 , April 2004, Pages 641-646 -

Carnitine versus androgen administration in the treatment of sexual

dysfunction, depressed mood, and fatigue associated with male aging.

G. Cavallini, S. Caracciolo, G. Vitali, F. Modenini and G. Biagiotti

END QUOTE

The names listed are, of course, the researchers.

I then noted:

QUOTE: Note: G. Cavallini and G. Biagiotti are patent inventors for

the association of Acetyl-Carnitine/Propionyl-Carnitine for the

therapy of symptoms associated with partial androgen deficiency of the

aging male.

END QUOTE

So two of the five researchers did in fact have a vested interest in

the conduct of the trial. (While many people believe that a research

article appearing in a medical journal believes that means the researh

has been validated by that organization, the fact is that " article

space " is actually sold out almost like " advertising space " ).

Now does that mean that the research is invalid? Not at all. It may

very well be absolutely correctly performed research. Just something

to note.

Anyway, I also noted (like you said) that daily intake of carnitine

plus a separate dose of acetyl-carnitine was " quite significant " (2

grams of propionyl-carnitine AND 2 grams of acetyl-carnitine per day).

Plus the study doesn't specify how the compounds were administered

(orally I assume, but it my version - see link - it doesn't specify).

Then it refers to " Group 1 was given testosterone undecanoate 160

mg/day " .

Yikes!

Testosterone undecanoate is often an IM shot application, but that

dosage level would be clearly an extremely excessive amount (i.e.,

that would be equivalent to a weekly shot of 1,120 mg of testosterone

undecanoate (when a normal level would be like 100 - 120 mg weekly).

So I am assuming this to be an oral dosing. 160 mg of testosterone

undecanoate in an oral dosing would be a lot more appropriate than

that kind of a level in an IM shot form! In fact, that level dosage is

commercially available in a brand known as Andriol.

Technically, Andriol (testosterone undecanoate), is an orally active

testosterone preparation, and is a fatty acid ester of the

natural androgen testosterone. Unlike other oral testosterone

preparations, testosterone undecanoate is able to by-pass the liver

via the lymphatic system and is (according to the manufacturer of

course) therefore more orally bioavailable than standard oral

testosterone preparations (which do not bypass the liver).

But in actual practice, most users of Andriol seem to report problems

with it remaining effective after the first few months.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134236563 & highlight=Andriol

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=6397 & highlight=Andriol

QUOTE: Undecanoate: Chemical Structure C11H22O2 - Also referred to as

Undecanoic Acid; 1-Decanecarboxylic acid; Hendecanoic acid; Undecylic

acid. Undecanoate is not a commonly found ester, and only appears to

be used in the nandrolone preparation Dynabolan, and oral testosterone

undecanoate (Andriol). Since this ester is chemically very similar to

undecylenate (it is only 2 hydrogen atoms larger), it has a similar

release duration (approximately 2-3 weeks). Although this ester is

used in the oral preparation Andriol, there is no reason to believe it

carries any properties unique of other esters. Andriol in fact works

very poorly at delivering testosterone, bolstering the idea that oral

administration is not the idea use of esterified androgens.

END QUOTE

This was verified by means of a study over a 12-month time period in

Australia reported in 2004:

QUOTE: " Effect of 12 month oral testosterone on testosterone

deficiency symptoms in symptomatic elderly males with low-normal

gonadal status " .

Haren M, Chapman I, Coates P, Morley J, Wittert G. - University of

Adelaide, Department of Medicine, Adelaide, South Australia, Australia.

BACKGROUND: relative androgen deficiency in ageing males is assumed to

have adverse health effects. This study assessed the effect of 12

months' standard dose, oral testosterone, on symptoms attributed to

testosterone deficiency in older men with plasma testosterone levels

in the low-normal range for young men. METHODS: testosterone

undecanoate (TU, 80 mg bid) or placebo was administered for one year

to 76 healthy men, 60 years or older, with a free testosterone index

(FTI) of 0.3-0.5 and significant symptoms on a questionnaire designed

to evaluate androgen deficiency (ADAM). The ADAM was completed at

baseline, 6 and 12 months. Hormone and safety data were collected at

baseline, 1, 3, 6 and 12 months. RESULTS: after 12 months, plasma

total testosterone was unchanged in both groups and sex hormone

binding globulin decreased in the testosterone group (P = 0.01). FTI

and calculated bioavailable testosterone (cBT) were greater in the

testosterone group as compared with the placebo group (P = 0.021 and

0.025, respectively). There was no significant difference in total

symptom score between testosterone and placebo groups after 12 months

of oral TU....

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134234171 & highlight=testosterone\

+undecanoate

END QUOTE

Note that after the 12 months of administration that plasma (Total)

testosterone was unchanged between the placebo group and the Andriol

group.

Also note that in the Australian study the testosterone undecanoate

was administered twice daily in 80 mg doses (for a 160 mg total).

The Italian study reports that " Group 1 was given testosterone

undecanoate 160 mg/day " but doesn't specify whether it was done in one

dose or two.

That is important as (Andriol) oral testosterone undecanoate's effects

are gone by the ten hour mark....

QUOTE:

Therapy with Andriol increases plasma levels of testosterone and its

active metabolites, leading to a regular therapeutic effect. In

eugonadal men, peak testosterone levels are reached in approximately

4-5 hours after ingestion returning to basal levels after about 10

hours....

http://www.mastersmensclinic.com/Andriol%20Monograph.htm

END QUOTE

I point this out simply to show that one must be cautious to see

whether or not a clinical trial has been " tilted " in favor of a

particular outcome, not guaranteed mind you, but " favored " .

Oral testosterone is obviously the poorest choice to use and to

conduct a study that trumpets Carnitine as being " superior to

testosterone' in certain categories must be viewed in that light. How

would carnitine have fared if paired against testosterone administered

100 mg IM weekly or 10 grams of AndroGel applied daily? We simply

don't know. I personally would imagine that testosterone would have

faired much, much better than shown in this Italian study.

Additionally, the study's conclusions (even with using the oral

testosterone preparation) have to be noted very carefully:

QUOTE:

Results

Testosterone and carnitines significantly improved the peak systolic

velocity, end-diastolic velocity, resistive index, nocturnal penile

tumescence, International Index of Erectile Function score, Depression

Melancholia Scale score, and fatigue scale score. Carnitines proved

significantly more active than testosterone in improving nocturnal

penile tumescence and International Index of Erectile Function score.

Testosterone significantly increased the prostate volume and free and

total testosterone levels and significantly lowered serum luteinizing

hormone; carnitines did not. No drug significantly modified

prostate-specific antigen or prolactin. Carnitines and testosterone

proved effective for as long as they were administered, with

suspension provoking a reversal to baseline values.

END QUOTE

Unfortunately other test criteria such as Total estrogens, estradiol,

DHT, etc, weren't included. Nor was it mentioned that health aspects

directly related to increased testosterone would not occur with the

carnitine patients (as carnitine did not increaase Total T or FreeT).

This would include things like cardiovascular protection, bone loss

protection, increasing lean muscle mass, etc., etc. that increased

testosterone levels provide.

Another interesting element:

In the Italian study the researchers used a combination of propionyl -

carnitine 2 g/day plus acetyl - carnitine 2 g/day. So was it the

propionyl - carnitine )this being the version patented by two of the

researchers) or was it just regular acetyl - carnitine, or was it a

requirement of both? Or would just plain old Carnitine at maybe 5

grams a day have done the same thing? We don't know.

Bottom line?

I think that while the test was " slanted " to favor carnitine in a

" comparison " to testosterone, I do think that the test raised some

interesting points in favor of carnitine supplementation. Carnitine

appears to have improved specifically nocturnal penile tumescence and

erectile functioning. That makes it sound to me like it has some

relationship to improving libido and/or the hydraulic functioning of

the erection process.

An interesting study (even with its limitations) and well worth adding

to one's knowledge database.

Thanks for the info (was one of those bookmarked things that I was

still working my way towards).

Larry

> It would be interesting to see if the mechanism by which Carnitine

> worked was by binding to SHBG and thereby freeing up considerable

> levels of Free T ----

>

> I have wondered too, along similar lines, if carnitine perhaps allows

> available testosterone to be utilized more efficiently, by that or

> some other means involving optimizing the receptor cells.

> (Obviously fixing the neural pathways and their effect on the

> vascular system explains how ED is reversed.)

>

> -----And, yes, the methodology of clinical trials and then what gets

> offered to the consumer is frustrating. Buying the specific type of

> carnitine and then discovering that the test subjects took eight TIMES

> that dosage is, well, frustrating.------

>

> You make a lot of good points.

>

> It is hard to share this wonder cure with people because many will

> not commit to trying a mega-dose of a product labelled with a smaller

> recommended dose, and many give up if immediate results are not

> seen. (Not that this would work for every man. I suspect those with

> ED of a psychologically nature and possibly those with problems from

> sexual side effects of other meds or those severely in need of TRT

> would probably not see such a good outcome.)

>

> I haven't seen much reliable info on MACA as anything other than a

> vitamin supplement. But without research at very high doses and/or

> for a sustained period of time, there is no way to know. I know that

> the pharmaceutical houses extract and synthesize their meds from

> plenty of these plants that are harvested " as is " and toted by

> supplement sellers as having certain properties found only in a

> concentrated medicinal derivative, often of only a particular

> subspecies of that plant.

>

> ---P.S. As to DHEA, unfortunately there's a lot in Congress who are

> agreeing with how strong it is and the ball is really rolling as to

> getting it included with the other banned prohormones. -------

>

> I wouldn't worry too much until it happens. Similar bills have been

> defeated in the past. (I have a stockpile of the stuff in case

> though!) The DEA doesn't want another substance added to their list

> of " controlled substances " to police. They are having enough trouble

> keeping tabs on existing steroids.

>

> I'm more concerned with recent concerted attempts to discredit

> current use of TRT in men and to prevent it altogether in women.

>

> But it's hard to know how the economic power struggle will play out.

> The bill in congress will be pushed by the public, but pulled apart

> by the " natural supplement " industry millions and the over-stretched

> budget and manpower of the DEA, while the pharmaceutical giants

> probably stand aside since it is not their product under threat. I

> don't know enough about sports and their regulatory agencies to know

> or predict where they will weigh in.

>

> We'll see, but I'm more threatened by the testosterone police than

> the DHEA would-be regulators. Of course with my luck they'll

> probably both be banned.

>

> If things get truly desperate I can always implement plan E: shooting

> or trapping small animals, excising and drying their testicles into a

> powder. Nope, have not yet resorted this grisly plan, but necessity

> is the mother of invention and desperation leads to desperate

> measures. (I'm kidding of course...sort of.)

[Guest guest]

" There is no difference in the survival rates for those who had

surgery for prostate cancer and controls who did not!

This follows earlier reports that radical surgery for prostate cancer

also tends to spread the disease. In addition, those who had surgery

suffered more morbidity effects such as impotence or incontinence. "

Your dgt. and dgt. in law can probably be of more help now.

If you want more info on this and the source, write me.

In , " Wallace " <pookerman@...> wrote:

>

> I'm new to the group effective today.

> I was diagnosed with prostate cancer (stage 1, gleason 7) and have

> opted for a radical prostatectomy (July 25).

> My daughter is finishing her Master of Traditional Oriental Medicine

> program this year and has recommended a couple of things. The first

> thing she sent me was Jiaogulan, to be brewed as a tea. She is also

> sending me TPPTM Protease 375K.

> My daughter-in-law is an MD and has asked her sister, who is a

> Naturopathic Doctor to recommend some things. She has recommended

> Modified Citrin Pectin, First Intention, and Vitamin C.

> Does anyone have any experience with these supplements (less vitamin

> C) that can comment on their eficacy?

>

[Guest guest]

,

I would have loved to be in your position with your contacts and with this group

you are reaching out to one year ago. You have time to educate yourself.

There are so many options beside surgery, radiation and hormone ablation. Start

with diet and exercise, and pay attention to your spiritual self. You have

plenty of time to educate yourself, try alternative things, and watch the

numbers come down. Rick

Wallace wrote:

> I'm new to the group effective today.

> I was diagnosed with prostate cancer (stage 1, gleason 7) and have

> opted for a radical prostatectomy (July 25).

> My daughter is finishing her Master of Traditional Oriental Medicine program

this year and has recommended a couple of things. The first thing she sent me

was Jiaogulan, to be brewed as a tea. She is also sending me TPPTM Protease

375K.

> My daughter-in-law is an MD and has asked her sister, who is a

> Naturopathic Doctor to recommend some things. She has recommended

> Modified Citrin Pectin, First Intention, and Vitamin C.

> Does anyone have any experience with these supplements (less vitamin C) that

can comment on their eficacy?

>

[Guest guest]

I recommend the folks at www.DrStore.com. They recently joined with Self

Health Resource Center. Their selection, quality and prices are great. Call them

at 619-409-9500.

Blessings!

Arthur

888-533-7007

www.BestZapper.com

www.ForgetDrugs.com

supplements

where can you get the best Dr. supplements?

[Guest guest]

What is A.H.C.C? And where do you buy the

Ultra Blue Green Algae?

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

What is AHCC:

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/ahofmedmus.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & q=ahcc & btnG=Google+Search

Ultra Blue Green Algae is sold by various people---by multi-level

marketers and regular retailers. Just do an online search under " blue

green algae " and choose a product that comes from Lake Klamath, that is

properly processed(not heated or otherwise compromised)and that is

reasonably-priced.

www.swansonvitamins.com may have a good blue-green algae product that

is reasonably priced. Don't be concerned about the prefix " ultra "

or " super. " Those are just marketing hype.

Best wishes,

Elliot

Classicaledmom wrote:

> What is A.H.C.C? And where do you buy the

> Ultra Blue Green Algae?

> Thanks!

[Guest guest]

,

A.H.C.C . is Active Hexose Correlated Compound

It is for actively attacking the harmful cells .

While at the same time enhancing the good cells.

Harmful cells I.E. Cysts, Tumors, Cancer etc.

The Ultra Blue Green Algae is found at Wal-Mart " Rexall " brand.

I certainly am getting better after just a few weeks.

Dan

[ ] RE: Supplements

What is A.H.C.C? And where do you buy the

Ultra Blue Green Algae?

Thanks!