Re: Honey: SCD vs. GAPS

[Guest guest]

Dr. -McBride said in her talk at the WAPF conference to

use raw (really raw) honey and even pointed out that its hard to find

but that many of the Amish vendors at the conference were selling it.

I'm not sure whether or not she mentions this in the GAPS book, but

I remember her saying this at the conference.

Katy

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Jane SwansonSent: Friday, March 14, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: [ ] Honey: SCD vs. GAPS

From what I've read both GAPS and SCD use honey as the allowed sweetener. I have the GAPS book but I haven't gotten the SCD book yet (still waiting for my turn at the library) so I've been reading some stuff on the web. It looks like SCD recommends using pasturized, filtered honey as Elaine says that the bee pollen is hard on digestion. I can't recall if GAPS specifies one or the other. In any case, we use to eat raw honey all the time and when my daughter had IgG testing done last summer, honey was one of the foods she reacted to. So, I'm wondering whether I should go ahead and use honey anyway and if so, would it be better to use the pasturized, filtered or raw?thanks,Jane

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[Guest guest]

What about the filtering part? Anyone know. I have several jars of

raw unfiltered that i buy from TT as it is the one my hub and kids like

the most. i have bene wondering as i saw on the SCD sites it said no

unfiltered kind. We used to use bee pollen all the time too i have a

huge tub in the freezer still.

>

> Dr. -McBride said in her talk at the WAPF conference to

> use raw (really raw) honey and even pointed out that its hard to

[Guest guest]

My husband is a beekeeper. I don't think there is

such a thing as unfiltered honey. If you don't filter

it, you end up with dead bee parts in your honey and

other such unwanted debris. We filter our honey with

unbleached cheesecloth. I'm not sure what the big

commercial places use, but I can't imagine it is

anything toxic or otherwise damaging to the honey -

you're just straining out debris.

Barb

What about the filtering part? Anyone know. I

have several jars of

raw unfiltered that i buy from TT as it is the one my

hub and kids like

the most. i have bene wondering as i saw on the SCD

sites it said no

unfiltered kind. We used to use bee pollen all the

time too i have a

huge tub in the freezer still.

--

[Guest guest]

I have been buying raw honey from Whole Foods. There is a brand called "Really Raw Honey"On Mar 14, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Katy wrote: Dr. -McBride said in her talk at the WAPF conference to use raw (really raw) honey and even pointed out that its hard to find but that many of the Amish vendors at the conference were selling it. I'm not sure whether or not she mentions this in the GAPS book, but I remember her saying this at the conference. Katy

[Guest guest]

There might be a brand called Really Raw Honey, but what Katy probably

meant is that there are lots of honeys marketed as raw that have been

heat treated. The way you can easily tell is whether the honey is

golden color and liquid (not really raw, no matter what the label says)

or whitish color and solid (really raw). Dr.N. is very explicit that

really raw honey is the only sweetener to use. She also recommends

only dried fruit for sweetener in cooking (not honey).

Whole Foods honey is extrememly expensive. Look at the website

Tropical Traditions. They sell raw honey cheaper, especially if you

buy a 15 # tub. The tub was 40% off a few weeks ago, and I am waiting

for it to go on sale again. The giant tub is on sale until tomorrow,

but you need to use a lot of honey for that to be worthwhile.

inasnit@... wrote:

I have been buying raw honey from Whole Foods. There is a brand

called "Really Raw Honey"

On Mar 14, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Katy wrote:

Dr. -McBride said in her

talk at the WAPF conference to

use raw (really raw) honey and

even pointed out that its hard to find

but that many of the Amish

vendors at the conference were selling it.

I'm not sure whether or not she

mentions this in the GAPS book, but

I remember her saying this at

the conference.

Katy

[Guest guest]

> There might be a brand called Really Raw Honey, but what Katy

> probably meant is that there are lots of honeys marketed as raw

> that have been heat treated.

Correct, that is what I meant. Thanks .

Katy

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[Guest guest]

This is not quite accurate. Really raw honey can be

golden in color and liquid. This is the natural state

of honey prior to heating. We have been producing

honey for years (well, our bees have)and have never

heated any of it and it is golden and liquid. The

color of the honey (as well as the taste) depends on

what sort of flowers the bees have been to. The

white/solid honey is not common and is not

necessarily better or more raw. I think it comes from

cold, northern climates.

Most commercial honey producers heat the honey so

that it becomes even more liquid and flows better

(easier for bottling it). They consider that if it is

not heated beyond 100 degrees, that it is still raw

(and, it probably does keep the enzymes intact. But,

I would still want unheated). Most small-time bee

keepers (your local guys who may sell it

commercially, but don't have huge operations) don't

heat their honey at all. It isn't necessary and it

takes more effort. Plus, most of these guys know that

the honey tastes better if it is not heated.

If you have any seasonal allergies, it is certainly

best to buy local honey. There are beekeepers all

over the place (many more than you would think) so if

you ask around, you can probably find good raw, local

honey at a very affordable price.

Barb

There might be a brand called Really Raw Honey, but

what Katy probably

meant is that there are lots of honeys marketed as

raw that have been

heat treated. The way you can easily tell is whether

the honey is

golden color and liquid (not really raw, no matter

what the label says)

or whitish color and solid (really raw). Dr.N. is

very explicit that

really raw honey is the only sweetener to use. She

also recommends only

dried fruit for sweetener in cooking (not honey).

Whole Foods honey is extrememly expensive. Look at

the website Tropical

Traditions. They sell raw honey cheaper, especially

if you buy a 15 #

tub. The tub was 40% off a few weeks ago, and I am

waiting for it to go

on sale again. The giant tub is on sale until

tomorrow, but you need to

use a lot of honey for that to be worthwhile.

inasnit@... wrote:

> I have been buying raw honey from Whole Foods.

There is a brand called

> " Really Raw Honey "

>

>

>

> On Mar 14, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Katy wrote:

>

>> Dr. -McBride said in her talk at the WAPF

conference to

>> use raw (really raw) honey and even pointed out

that its hard to find

>> but that many of the Amish vendors at the

conference were selling it.

>> I'm not sure whether or not she mentions this in

the GAPS book, but

>> I remember her saying this at the conference.

>>

>> Katy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<<My husband is a beekeeper. I don't think there is such a thing as

unfiltered honey...>>

Barb,

Thank you for posting this info. It's good to know more about honey

from people who know b/c I have read so many different things that

it's hard to know what to do.

The very first diet that I tried with my son was the SCD in the days

when Elaine Gotschall used to post and help us out. She would advice

back then to use the " less raw, unprocessed " type honey in order to

not have the kids with allergies react to the pollen (that was years

ago, it might have changed since then). Eventually, this diet didn't

work out well for us b/c my son did react terribly to honey and to

almonds/flour. I ended up having more success on the body ecology

diet which does not use honey as a sweetener, at least on the stage 1

and my son did better on this protocol.

I do think that as he heals, I may be able to use honey some

day...but I do appreciate understanding more about honey.

MIllie

[Guest guest]

We keep bees on and off also, and can vouch for the fact that honey straight out of the hive is usually clear and flowing, like you see it in the stores.  Products like "Really Raw Honey" are either seeded or contain the cappings (blended).  Honey also will crystallize naturally after awhile, gaining a thick, creamy appearance (we have several gallons in the pantry right now like this).  Honey is typically heated some (we heat ours just in the sunshine) just to filter out the bee parts and other matter.So please don't believe that the only *really* raw honey is that which has the thick, whitish appearance.  You're paying too much for honey if that's your criteria!BTW, we are currently paying around $100 for a 5 gallon bucket, or around $1-1.25#MaureenOn Mar 15, 2008, at 1:04 PM, Millie Krejci wrote:<<My husband is a beekeeper. I don't think there is such a thing as unfiltered honey...>>Barb,Thank you for posting this info. It's good to know more about honey from people who know b/c I have read so many different things that it's hard to know what to do.The very first diet that I tried with my son was the SCD in the days when Elaine Gotschall used to post and help us out. She would advice back then to use the "less raw, unprocessed" type honey in order to not have the kids with allergies react to the pollen (that was years ago, it might have changed since then). Eventually, this diet didn't work out well for us b/c my son did react terribly to honey and to almonds/flour. I ended up having more success on the body ecology diet which does not use honey as a sweetener, at least on the stage 1 and my son did better on this protocol.I do think that as he heals, I may be able to use honey some day...but I do appreciate understanding more about honey.MIllie

[Guest guest]

Since we are on a honey 101 kick...I also just

learned that it really doesn't seem to matter if the

honey is organic or not. I eat organic about 99% of

the time and I'm pretty picky about my sources of

food. So, I was always trying to get my husband to

work out how to make his honey organic. This is hard

to do because you can't control exactly where the

bees go - but generally, they go out from the hive in

a radius of about 3 miles. Well, it is hard to find

an area of land with that much certified organic

produce or homes that don't use any

pesticides/herbacides. I just learned that they way

the bees process the honey takes out any harmful

chemicals. So, even honey that isn't certified

organic should still be very pure (non-toxic).

However, the pesticides/herbicides are harmful to the

bees and is probably one of the main reasons for the

increasing " colony collapse disorder " that is wiping

out so many bees these days. Just thought this was

interesting.

Barb

Barb,

Thank you for posting this info. It's good to know

more about honey

from people who know b/c I have read so many

different things that

it's hard to know what to do.

The very first diet that I tried with my son was the

SCD in the days

when Elaine Gotschall used to post and help us out.

She would advice

back then to use the " less raw, unprocessed " type

honey in order to

not have the kids with allergies react to the pollen

(that was years

ago, it might have changed since then). Eventually,

this diet didn't

work out well for us b/c my son did react terribly to

honey and to

almonds/flour. I ended up having more success on the

body ecology

diet which does not use honey as a sweetener, at

least on the stage 1

and my son did better on this protocol.

I do think that as he heals, I may be able to use

honey some

day...but I do appreciate understanding more about honey.

MIllie

[Guest guest]

Its funny to hear that less raw and processed honey is better for

those with allergies. I think Barb alluded to the fact that local

honey is actually GOOD for allergies. Somehow the pollen in the

honey is thought to help develop a proper immunity to pollen in the

air. I don't know the science well enough, but maybe one of you can

elaborate on this.

Connie

>

> <<My husband is a beekeeper. I don't think there is such a thing as

> unfiltered honey...>>

>

> Barb,

>

> Thank you for posting this info. It's good to know more about honey

> from people who know b/c I have read so many different things that

> it's hard to know what to do.

>

> The very first diet that I tried with my son was the SCD in the

days

> when Elaine Gotschall used to post and help us out. She would

advice

> back then to use the " less raw, unprocessed " type honey in order to

> not have the kids with allergies react to the pollen (that was

years

> ago, it might have changed since then). Eventually, this diet

didn't

> work out well for us b/c my son did react terribly to honey and to

> almonds/flour. I ended up having more success on the body ecology

> diet which does not use honey as a sweetener, at least on the stage

1

> and my son did better on this protocol.

>

> I do think that as he heals, I may be able to use honey some

> day...but I do appreciate understanding more about honey.

>

> MIllie

>

[Guest guest]

I've never had inhalant allergies but I do hear from

people who do, that local honey helps them with their

pollen allergies. They never really said raw or

processed (I doubt they even thought about it). I

don't know any reason why heated would be better for

allergies than raw. Common sense tells me that raw

would be better all around. Most things in nature are

better for us before we get our hands on them and

start " improving " them! I've never learned about the

mechanisms behind how the honey helps (my husband's

books don't really go into the health aspects of the

various honey products - bee pollen, royal jelly,

etc.) It is a future project to learn more about this.

I think there is something very fascinating and

almost magical about bees and honey. I do think you

can overdo it with honey and there are times (severe

dysbiosis/candida) where you need to avoid it

completely for a while though.

Barb

Its funny to hear that less raw and processed honey

is better for

those with allergies. I think Barb alluded to the

fact that local

honey is actually GOOD for allergies. Somehow the

pollen in the

honey is thought to help develop a proper immunity to

pollen in the

air. I don't know the science well enough, but maybe

one of you can

elaborate on this.

Connie

>

> <<My husband is a beekeeper. I don't think there is

such a thing as

> unfiltered honey...>>

>

> Barb,

>

> Thank you for posting this info. It's good to know

more about honey

> from people who know b/c I have read so many

different things that

> it's hard to know what to do.

>

> The very first diet that I tried with my son was

the SCD in the

days

> when Elaine Gotschall used to post and help us out.

She would

advice

> back then to use the " less raw, unprocessed " type

honey in order to

> not have the kids with allergies react to the

pollen (that was

years

> ago, it might have changed since then). Eventually,

this diet

didn't

> work out well for us b/c my son did react terribly

to honey and to

> almonds/flour. I ended up having more success on

the body ecology

> diet which does not use honey as a sweetener, at

least on the stage

1

> and my son did better on this protocol.

>

> I do think that as he heals, I may be able to use

honey some

> day...but I do appreciate understanding more about

honey.

>

> MIllie

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry, Connie, I really don't know enough or much at all about

honey. I was just commenting on what I had read on the SCD list years

ago and that my son had not done well on it.

I too, have heard and know some people using local raw honey to help

with their allergies. My son was having so much trouble with

everything at that time, that we eliminated it and he probably had

candida as well. Otherwise, I defer to others more knowledgeable than

me on this topic.

Millie

[Guest guest]

No need to apologize, Millie )!!! I just always find it funny when I

hear contradictions between various diets and ways of thinking. It is

a reminder to me that no one person knows it all--one of them has to be

wrong ... or it least wrong in some cases.

I tend to think raw is usually better than cooked, but also realize

that other natural processes (like soaking for grains or fermenting

veggies) is even better than just plain raw. Still, most of this is

really still theory and we need to look at what works for us--as you

did.

Connie

>

> I'm sorry, Connie, I really don't know enough or much at all about

> honey. I was just commenting on what I had read on the SCD list years

> ago and that my son had not done well on it.

> I too, have heard and know some people using local raw honey to help

> with their allergies. My son was having so much trouble with

> everything at that time, that we eliminated it and he probably had

> candida as well. Otherwise, I defer to others more knowledgeable than

> me on this topic.

>

> Millie

>

[Guest guest]

I know that raw honey is good for seasonal allergies however what I read

on the web re: SCD view is that raw honey is harder to digest than

pasturized honey. My daughter had IgG reactions to honey and eggs, and I'm

trying to decide how to proceed with the honey and eggs as I heal her gut.

She's been off of them both for 8 months. I've given her some raw honey in

small amounts lately and that seems ok. I gave her a scramble egg on

Sunday and it seemed like she did ok with it--her stools were more soft.

Has anyone else proceeded with eating foods that showed up as IgG

allergies on the GAPS or SCD diet and still made progress?

thanks,

Jane

[Guest guest]

My theory is that when we have intolerances to food it is because we

are missing enzymes and microflora that help to metabolize these

foods. I wouldn't proceed with trying things until I have worked

hard at adding a good variety of microflora back into the system,

either through probiotics or raw milk. With eggs, I would start with

just yokes as the white is what usually triggers the allergy. Then

move on to the white.

More theory!!!! I keep reading about the community of microflora

that should be present in the gut and their sources of food. As I

have said before, the microflora, I believe, are a critical part of

the first line of metabolism. When we restrict a food group, we cut

off a food source for the microflora that would metabolize that food

group. However, different microflora can have a range of food

sources. Also, an intolerance may suggest you are lacking that

microflora to begin with. So with this in mind, when you add back

foods that were restricted, it makes sense to go slow as the

microflora begin to wake-up again. Make sure you are currently

getting a variety of microflora along with the food and use the

rawist form, so the enzymes and microflora that are present on the

raw will be alive when you ingest them.

Also, with eggs, I would ONLY use those that are from free-range,

grass-fed chickens. They are the healthiest!!!

Connie

>

>

> I know that raw honey is good for seasonal allergies however what I

read

> on the web re: SCD view is that raw honey is harder to digest than

> pasturized honey. My daughter had IgG reactions to honey and eggs,

and I'm

> trying to decide how to proceed with the honey and eggs as I heal

her gut.

> She's been off of them both for 8 months. I've given her some raw

honey in

> small amounts lately and that seems ok. I gave her a scramble egg

on

> Sunday and it seemed like she did ok with it--her stools were more

soft.

>

> Has anyone else proceeded with eating foods that showed up as IgG

> allergies on the GAPS or SCD diet and still made progress?

>

> thanks,

>

> Jane

>