Re: How do you feel about school choice?

[Guest guest]

I don't see it as solving the problem. And I see it hurting the

special need kid the most.

My reasoning is that a voucher program would allocate a

fixed amount assuming you don't have a special need and could

cope in mainstream settings. Many schools with smaller classes and special

education teachers are very expensive. It would be unlikely that special need

students could get funding to pay for this kind of a need. They would still have

to advocate for greater allocation of funds.

I see the solution as advocacy thru Autism groups. Here in NJ

the Autism group advocated and won that in our state, insurance

companies must now pay for behavioral therapy.

Our schools need SOME (not all) staff trained in special needs

best current practices. It is amazing that in the 1970's

it was advocated to use positive reinforcement in the school.

And still it is rarely used. Not because it costs more it is

just because it requires on going training and reinforcement to use

these methods. It takes leadership.

Pam

-- In , " fnofsports " <fnofsports@...> wrote:

>

> I realize this might be a devisive topic, and if the mods want to block this I

totally understand, but I thought it might be good to ask a bunch of people who

have seen the ugly side of public education about how they feel about school

choice. I tried asking this on political sites a couple times before, but every

time I was attacked from most every direction. I was really attacked when I

tried to compare this idea to the idea of single payer healthcare (totally

attacked there).

>

> First off let me give you some background knowledge (this is what I posted

there btw).

>

> A few years ago I worked at a summer camp designed for those with special

needs. At this camp I found many interesting kids, a few of which I have kept in

touch with over the years (all teenagers so don't start thinking anything). One

of these kids was named Z (name being shorted to protect his identity). To quote

the one who knows him best (his mom), " Z is an intelligent, sensitive, generous

young man with lots of energy and opinions on just about any subject under the

sun! He is very curious about things and asks a lot of questions, sometimes in

many different ways, in order to get the full meaning of things. He likes to be

the leader and do things " his way, " but he can also be thoughtful enough to let

someone else lead. He doesn't like to talk or gossip about other people and

tries never to hurt anyone's feelings. He is stubborn sometimes and likes to

think that he is always right! He's a lovable boy! "

>

> Sadly Z had many problems in public school that kept adding up year after

year. He had a pretty severe case of ADHD and a more mild case of asperger's

syndrome. The two really don't go together very well in todays school system as

it caused his teachers to not understand him... and sometimes to belittle him.

He didn't have as much trouble with bullies as others with his disabilities

frequently have, but this didn't exactly make him popular, in fact most of his

days were spent alone. He didn't know how to communicate and that just scared

others away. Finally after years of problems with his school, and his grades

gradually declining (A caliber student getting Bs and Cs, most Cs then Bs as of

late) his mom pulled him out and sent him to a private school for special needs

kids.

>

> The problem is that his mom is not sure how long she will be able to afford

such a school. The school costs more then 13,000 a year, and that is a hard

thing for her to afford. He is getting social skills training, has teachers that

understand him and have taken more then one class on how to educate students

with special needs, and is fitting in with his new peers as he finally has peers

who are like him. I have a hard time believing this isn't the best school for

him... though I have seen a few try suggesting its not.

>

> I wish so hard that the government would help him out. They have failed him

already, why can't they help him out now. I don't believe that helping one

student who clearly has a need that isn't being served in todays one size fits

all system, will lead to the privatization of the entire system. I get that his

school is expensive, and hard for the school district to pay for. But so is

educating him in the public system considering that him and many of his

classmates received one on one paras in the old system. I can't imagine a little

assistance would hurt anyone, so why would it be so evil to try?

>

> But it is more then just Z that needs help. I am sure many parents here would

probably love to send their kid to such a school (and many parents here probably

could tell how much public schools are paying for your kid... something they

refuse to believe). So why is it that private schools are considered so evil,

and helping to cover the cost of going there is totally wrong. So anyway I was

just curious how most of you felt about this issue... and once again I

understand totally if it doesn't get posted.

>

> P.S. I am an aspie myself and I have talked to many of you before, just

wanted to post to see what you guys thought.

>

[Guest guest]

I think the system would have to have a set amount for every kindof, sortof like

government run health care does for every illness. If a student needs more they

get more money, just like they would in the public education system as it is

today. So therefore like my friend has to pay 13,000 (and gets that much in

services) he would get that much to spend at a private school. They also cost

more in the public system, so I just don't get why they shouldn't get more.

Does that make sense.

Beyond that I think more knowledge in disabilities is needed. Most of our

teachers today take one course in special needs students. Many of them did this

before asperger's was in DSM-IV. I just don't know, I think they should help

him pay for his private school, and the same thing for all the kids here. Don't

you think a Montessori education (for example) would have been good for your lil

goof (aka kid).

> >

> > I realize this might be a devisive topic, and if the mods want to block this

I totally understand, but I thought it might be good to ask a bunch of people

who have seen the ugly side of public education about how they feel about school

choice. I tried asking this on political sites a couple times before, but every

time I was attacked from most every direction. I was really attacked when I

tried to compare this idea to the idea of single payer healthcare (totally

attacked there).

> >

> > First off let me give you some background knowledge (this is what I posted

there btw).

> >

> > A few years ago I worked at a summer camp designed for those with special

needs. At this camp I found many interesting kids, a few of which I have kept in

touch with over the years (all teenagers so don't start thinking anything). One

of these kids was named Z (name being shorted to protect his identity). To quote

the one who knows him best (his mom), " Z is an intelligent, sensitive, generous

young man with lots of energy and opinions on just about any subject under the

sun! He is very curious about things and asks a lot of questions, sometimes in

many different ways, in order to get the full meaning of things. He likes to be

the leader and do things " his way, " but he can also be thoughtful enough to let

someone else lead. He doesn't like to talk or gossip about other people and

tries never to hurt anyone's feelings. He is stubborn sometimes and likes to

think that he is always right! He's a lovable boy! "

> >

> > Sadly Z had many problems in public school that kept adding up year after

year. He had a pretty severe case of ADHD and a more mild case of asperger's

syndrome. The two really don't go together very well in todays school system as

it caused his teachers to not understand him... and sometimes to belittle him.

He didn't have as much trouble with bullies as others with his disabilities

frequently have, but this didn't exactly make him popular, in fact most of his

days were spent alone. He didn't know how to communicate and that just scared

others away. Finally after years of problems with his school, and his grades

gradually declining (A caliber student getting Bs and Cs, most Cs then Bs as of

late) his mom pulled him out and sent him to a private school for special needs

kids.

> >

> > The problem is that his mom is not sure how long she will be able to afford

such a school. The school costs more then 13,000 a year, and that is a hard

thing for her to afford. He is getting social skills training, has teachers that

understand him and have taken more then one class on how to educate students

with special needs, and is fitting in with his new peers as he finally has peers

who are like him. I have a hard time believing this isn't the best school for

him... though I have seen a few try suggesting its not.

> >

> > I wish so hard that the government would help him out. They have failed him

already, why can't they help him out now. I don't believe that helping one

student who clearly has a need that isn't being served in todays one size fits

all system, will lead to the privatization of the entire system. I get that his

school is expensive, and hard for the school district to pay for. But so is

educating him in the public system considering that him and many of his

classmates received one on one paras in the old system. I can't imagine a little

assistance would hurt anyone, so why would it be so evil to try?

> >

> > But it is more then just Z that needs help. I am sure many parents here

would probably love to send their kid to such a school (and many parents here

probably could tell how much public schools are paying for your kid... something

they refuse to believe). So why is it that private schools are considered so

evil, and helping to cover the cost of going there is totally wrong. So anyway

I was just curious how most of you felt about this issue... and once again I

understand totally if it doesn't get posted.

> >

> > P.S. I am an aspie myself and I have talked to many of you before, just

wanted to post to see what you guys thought.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Some schools do have policies that if they can't help a child they will pay for

a child to go to another school. In some states this seems to work out well and

in others the districts fight to keep kids from getting a diagnosis at all. I

do know of a situation in which a public school paid for private school for a

child they couldn't help. It is on a case by case basis and it isn't the same

in all districts. If the schools had more knowledge and interest in helping

these kids I think such a thing might not be necessary often. My son is in a

public school. He has friends and is liked by most of them. He spends most of

his time in the " general education " setting but gets pulled for speech, breaks,

ot and extra help with classwork/homework. Our school district has a special

olympics team. There are a lot of special needs kids in our school. The

typical kids volunteer for special olympics and many of the special needs kids

PLAY special olympics and somehow this brings them together and the typical kids

get educated on lots of different disabilities and they are pretty comfortable

with these things. We are probably in the best public school situation one can

find. Sadly, most are not like this. My only complaint is a tendency on the

part of the staff to do too much for my kid at times when I think maybe he

should be pushed a little more to do things himself. It starts out this way

every year and once they get to know him they push him more but never more than

is appropriate. They change based on 's abilities and needs.

My thought is that we need to do something to encourage other schools to adopt

similar methods. However, it doesn't work for all kids, or all disabilities.

It seems to be harder to get help for dyslexia here. Kids with behavior

problems always get better services because they advocate for themselves in the

only way they know how. Our district is still the best I've seen. People move

to this area because of the special education programs here. I'd be afraid that

introducing vouchers here would interefere with an already good program. More

people would come from other places to go to school here and this would stretch

the funds. I'm thinking maybe schools should be given some sort of funding

incentives when they're doing the right things. Maybe parents of special needs

kids could fill out questionnaires about how well their childrens' needs are

being met and schools with the best scores could be given awards and some extra

money.

This could carry the problem of taking money from under-funded schools who

really can't afford to do better. It's all so complicated. Schools with lots

of money who are doing a crappy job might start doing better.

Anyway, I'm open for discussion and won't attack anyone for their opinions. I'd

like to see something that works, but I have no idea what that would be in terms

of getting public schools to do the right things.

Miriam

>

> I realize this might be a devisive topic, and if the mods want to block this I

totally understand, but I thought it might be good to ask a bunch of people who

have seen the ugly side of public education about how they feel about school

choice. I tried asking this on political sites a couple times before, but every

time I was attacked from most every direction. I was really attacked when I

tried to compare this idea to the idea of single payer healthcare (totally

attacked there).

>

> First off let me give you some background knowledge (this is what I posted

there btw).

>

> A few years ago I worked at a summer camp designed for those with special

needs. At this camp I found many interesting kids, a few of which I have kept in

touch with over the years (all teenagers so don't start thinking anything). One

of these kids was named Z (name being shorted to protect his identity). To quote

the one who knows him best (his mom), " Z is an intelligent, sensitive, generous

young man with lots of energy and opinions on just about any subject under the

sun! He is very curious about things and asks a lot of questions, sometimes in

many different ways, in order to get the full meaning of things. He likes to be

the leader and do things " his way, " but he can also be thoughtful enough to let

someone else lead. He doesn't like to talk or gossip about other people and

tries never to hurt anyone's feelings. He is stubborn sometimes and likes to

think that he is always right! He's a lovable boy! "

>

> Sadly Z had many problems in public school that kept adding up year after

year. He had a pretty severe case of ADHD and a more mild case of asperger's

syndrome. The two really don't go together very well in todays school system as

it caused his teachers to not understand him... and sometimes to belittle him.

He didn't have as much trouble with bullies as others with his disabilities

frequently have, but this didn't exactly make him popular, in fact most of his

days were spent alone. He didn't know how to communicate and that just scared

others away. Finally after years of problems with his school, and his grades

gradually declining (A caliber student getting Bs and Cs, most Cs then Bs as of

late) his mom pulled him out and sent him to a private school for special needs

kids.

>

> The problem is that his mom is not sure how long she will be able to afford

such a school. The school costs more then 13,000 a year, and that is a hard

thing for her to afford. He is getting social skills training, has teachers that

understand him and have taken more then one class on how to educate students

with special needs, and is fitting in with his new peers as he finally has peers

who are like him. I have a hard time believing this isn't the best school for

him... though I have seen a few try suggesting its not.

>

> I wish so hard that the government would help him out. They have failed him

already, why can't they help him out now. I don't believe that helping one

student who clearly has a need that isn't being served in todays one size fits

all system, will lead to the privatization of the entire system. I get that his

school is expensive, and hard for the school district to pay for. But so is

educating him in the public system considering that him and many of his

classmates received one on one paras in the old system. I can't imagine a little

assistance would hurt anyone, so why would it be so evil to try?

>

> But it is more then just Z that needs help. I am sure many parents here would

probably love to send their kid to such a school (and many parents here probably

could tell how much public schools are paying for your kid... something they

refuse to believe). So why is it that private schools are considered so evil,

and helping to cover the cost of going there is totally wrong. So anyway I was

just curious how most of you felt about this issue... and once again I

understand totally if it doesn't get posted.

>

> P.S. I am an aspie myself and I have talked to many of you before, just

wanted to post to see what you guys thought.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I'll be real quick here.

I wish that the govmt would help pay for a school that could/would "fit" our kids.

But,,,,,I also wish that there was a school around HERE that was available. We don't even have one around here. If there was, heck, I'd get him there,,,,,,,even if we had to travel good distances.

So,,,,,,,,I guess, to answer your question,,,,,,I feel "good" about the idea of school choice and wish it was an "automatic given" for kids with a disability. Of course, like I said, the school would actually have to BE around.

Robin

From: fnofsports <fnofsports@...>Subject: ( ) How do you feel about school choice? Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 7:28 PM

I realize this might be a devisive topic, and if the mods want to block this I totally understand, but I thought it might be good to ask a bunch of people who have seen the ugly side of public education about how they feel about school choice. I tried asking this on political sites a couple times before, but every time I was attacked from most every direction. I was really attacked when I tried to compare this idea to the idea of single payer healthcare (totally attacked there).First off let me give you some background knowledge (this is what I posted there btw).A few years ago I worked at a summer camp designed for those with special needs. At this camp I found many interesting kids, a few of which I have kept in touch with over the years (all teenagers so don't start thinking anything). One of these kids was named Z (name being shorted to protect his identity). To quote the one who knows him best (his mom), " Z is an intelligent,

sensitive, generous young man with lots of energy and opinions on just about any subject under the sun! He is very curious about things and asks a lot of questions, sometimes in many different ways, in order to get the full meaning of things. He likes to be the leader and do things "his way," but he can also be thoughtful enough to let someone else lead. He doesn't like to talk or gossip about other people and tries never to hurt anyone's feelings. He is stubborn sometimes and likes to think that he is always right! He's a lovable boy!"Sadly Z had many problems in public school that kept adding up year after year. He had a pretty severe case of ADHD and a more mild case of asperger's syndrome. The two really don't go together very well in todays school system as it caused his teachers to not understand him... and sometimes to belittle him. He didn't have as much trouble with bullies as others with his disabilities frequently have, but this

didn't exactly make him popular, in fact most of his days were spent alone. He didn't know how to communicate and that just scared others away. Finally after years of problems with his school, and his grades gradually declining (A caliber student getting Bs and Cs, most Cs then Bs as of late) his mom pulled him out and sent him to a private school for special needs kids.The problem is that his mom is not sure how long she will be able to afford such a school. The school costs more then 13,000 a year, and that is a hard thing for her to afford. He is getting social skills training, has teachers that understand him and have taken more then one class on how to educate students with special needs, and is fitting in with his new peers as he finally has peers who are like him. I have a hard time believing this isn't the best school for him... though I have seen a few try suggesting its not.I wish so hard that the government would help him out.

They have failed him already, why can't they help him out now. I don't believe that helping one student who clearly has a need that isn't being served in todays one size fits all system, will lead to the privatization of the entire system. I get that his school is expensive, and hard for the school district to pay for. But so is educating him in the public system considering that him and many of his classmates received one on one paras in the old system. I can't imagine a little assistance would hurt anyone, so why would it be so evil to try?But it is more then just Z that needs help. I am sure many parents here would probably love to send their kid to such a school (and many parents here probably could tell how much public schools are paying for your kid... something they refuse to believe). So why is it that private schools are considered so evil, and helping to cover the cost of going there is totally wrong. So anyway I was just curious how

most of you felt about this issue... and once again I understand totally if it doesn't get posted.P.S. I am an aspie myself and I have talked to many of you before, just wanted to post to see what you guys thought.

[Guest guest]

All the voucher programs I've seen proposed offer a flat dollar amount with no

adjustment for special needs. The amounts I've heard bandied about wouldn't

even cover parochial school, much less anything pricier. Also, at least in my

state, the private schools do not have to provide special services and generally

expect the parents to pay extra for them and do any special intervention on

their own time. And they frequently solve the problem by not inviting the child

back the next year, that is dumping the problem child back on the public school

system. (My therapist happens to treat many children and discussed this topic

with me after my son was diagnosed.)

So I don't think vouchers would help most or perhaps any of our kids. And at

least with the public schools, there are laws requiring the services to be

provided. I'm well aware that many schools fight against doing what they're

obligated to do, but there is still at least that legal obligation.

Bronwyn

[Guest guest]

I probably should have been more clear, I don't think the voucher systems as they are right now would work. Generally with these systems the public school that the kid is leaving keeps half the money that would normally go to educate him or at least to supply his share of the education. When you consider a special needs kid this is made even more weird because special needs kids frequently cost more to educate. There should be a way for the money to follow the kid, so that a school doesn't see all of their kids leave but keep half the money (or whatever.) Beyond this there are many private schools for kids with special needs (Z goes to one such school), there probably would be more but they are expensive to operate which keeps the amount down as tution is also expensive. Give kids free (or nearly so) tution to go to a school of their choice, you would probably see a lot more of these schools. Though then again who knows.

From: bronwynbluedog@...Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:16:08 +0000Subject: ( ) Re: How do you feel about school choice?

All the voucher programs I've seen proposed offer a flat dollar amount with no adjustment for special needs. The amounts I've heard bandied about wouldn't even cover parochial school, much less anything pricier. Also, at least in my state, the private schools do not have to provide special services and generally expect the parents to pay extra for them and do any special intervention on their own time. And they frequently solve the problem by not inviting the child back the next year, that is dumping the problem child back on the public school system. (My therapist happens to treat many children and discussed this topic with me after my son was diagnosed.)So I don't think vouchers would help most or perhaps any of our kids. And at least with the public schools, there are laws requiring the services to be provided. I'm well aware that many schools fight against doing what they're obligated to do, but there is still at least that legal obligation.Bronwyn

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