Something I forgot to add - Antibiotics

[Guest guest]

My best friend (who doesn't trust doctors and is a big believer in holistic

medicine/alternative healing) has this thing about taking prescription

medications. She says they often treat the symptoms and not the cause of the

disease. This is oh so true. I have questioned before the use of antibiotics

to treat PA. I am currently reading " The New Arthritis Breakthrough " by Henry

Scammel. I spoke with him a few months back regarding AP. He was so kind to

call me in person and tell me what wonderful results he had with the treatment.

I am seeing my rheumy today and I will be asking her for a prescription for the

antibiotics. I haven't gotten far in my book and my dr. is not experienced in

this treatment. She knows of it and is skeptical however, she said that it

wouldn't hurt me so she has agreed to let me give it a try. I have some

questions.

1. Is it better to take minocycline or doxycyline?

2. Which brand is the most effective?

3. Is there anything that needs to be taken with the antibiotics? I won't be

giving up my enbrel until I see results from the antibiotics. I know that you

have to take a probiotic, right? What would that be? Vitamins, supplemennts,

etc.?

If you have any more info that would be helpful I would appreciate it. I was

going to wait until I finished reading the book to start but I need to start as

soon as possible. Time to stop treating the symptoms and get to the root of the

problem.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

" 1. Is it better to take minocycline or doxycyline?

2. Which brand is the most effective?

3. Is there anything that needs to be taken with the antibiotics? I won't

be giving up my enbrel until I see results from the antibiotics. I know

that you have to take a probiotic, right? What would that be? Vitamins,

supplemennts, etc.? "

I've been taking Minocycline for about 6 months now while slowly weaning

myself off MTX (which I've been on for about a year and a half). I feel

great! There is no swelling in the hands or toes anymore and most of the

aches and pains are gone. I also take probiotics that I get from my

naturopath, they are in capsule form and I take 4-6 a day.

Amy in Oregon

[Guest guest]

,

May I suggest you join the " rheumatic " group at

rheumatic/ and take a look at

http://www.rheumatic.org/ and http://www.roadback.org/

The Protocol for taking antibiotics for auto-immune diseases can be

found at either of the web sites above, or at

http://ron.dotson.org/ap/protocol.htm

Also please feel free to email me personally if you wish. For the

last year or so I've been taking Lederle timed release pelletized

Minocin, 100mg x 2, on MWF and either eat some yogurt, cottage

cheese, etc or take a Pro-Biotics Acidophilus capsule that I get from

GNC on days when I do not take Minocin. One of the most important

things about taking Minocin or Minocycline is to make sure you don't

take anything with calcium in it along with the Minocin, as it will

neutralize Minocin's affects (it binds with calcium somehow).

It's worked great for me so far, but I still take Sulfasalazine and

an occasional Naproxen and sometimes even a Vicodin for generalized

aches and pains. I also take Klonopin for sleep. Antibiotic therapy

needs a long time to work and doesn't always work for everyone, so

don't expect instant results. Six months is usually the earliest

you'll see any improvement, although I noticed a significant decrease

in fatigue within the first month.

-- Ron

> My best friend (who doesn't trust doctors and is a big believer in

holistic medicine/alternative healing) has this thing about taking

prescription medications. She says they often treat the symptoms and

not the cause of the disease. This is oh so true. I have questioned

before the use of antibiotics to treat PA. I am currently

reading " The New Arthritis Breakthrough " by Henry Scammel. I spoke

with him a few months back regarding AP. He was so kind to call me

in person and tell me what wonderful results he had with the

treatment. I am seeing my rheumy today and I will be asking her for

a prescription for the antibiotics. I haven't gotten far in my book

and my dr. is not experienced in this treatment. She knows of it and

is skeptical however, she said that it wouldn't hurt me so she has

agreed to let me give it a try. I have some questions.

>

> 1. Is it better to take minocycline or doxycyline?

> 2. Which brand is the most effective?

> 3. Is there anything that needs to be taken with the antibiotics?

I won't be giving up my enbrel until I see results from the

antibiotics. I know that you have to take a probiotic, right? What

would that be? Vitamins, supplemennts, etc.?

>

> If you have any more info that would be helpful I would appreciate

it. I was going to wait until I finished reading the book to start

but I need to start as soon as possible. Time to stop treating the

symptoms and get to the root of the problem.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In the reading I've done on antibiotic protocols for RA (like on

Medline or Medpubs- one of those research databases), it said that it

seemed to work fairly decently if they started it early in the onset

of the disease. But it was less effective in people who had the

disease for many years.

The only thing I'm personally concerned about in using low-grade

antibiotics (not quality necessarily, but the type of antibiotic-

tetracycline, minocycline, doxycycline) over a prolonged period of

time is buiding up resistances.

In countries like Mexico, etc, it's very easy to get these low-grade

antibiotics and that's one of the reasons there are increasing rates

of resistant strains of TB and stapph infections. My cousin nearly

died from a stapph infection in the leg. As a kid, he had been on so

many antibiotics for various ear and throat infections. His system

had become resistant to all the individual antibiotics and they had

to start using mega combinations to get him to respond.

So that's one of my concerns.

> ,

>

> May I suggest you join the " rheumatic " group at

> rheumatic/ and take a look at

> http://www.rheumatic.org/ and http://www.roadback.org/

>

> The Protocol for taking antibiotics for auto-immune diseases can be

> found at either of the web sites above, or at

> http://ron.dotson.org/ap/protocol.htm

>

> Also please feel free to email me personally if you wish. For the

> last year or so I've been taking Lederle timed release pelletized

> Minocin, 100mg x 2, on MWF and either eat some yogurt, cottage

> cheese, etc or take a Pro-Biotics Acidophilus capsule that I get

from

> GNC on days when I do not take Minocin. One of the most important

> things about taking Minocin or Minocycline is to make sure you

don't

> take anything with calcium in it along with the Minocin, as it will

> neutralize Minocin's affects (it binds with calcium somehow).

>

> It's worked great for me so far, but I still take Sulfasalazine and

> an occasional Naproxen and sometimes even a Vicodin for generalized

> aches and pains. I also take Klonopin for sleep. Antibiotic therapy

> needs a long time to work and doesn't always work for everyone, so

> don't expect instant results. Six months is usually the earliest

> you'll see any improvement, although I noticed a significant

decrease

> in fatigue within the first month.

>

> -- Ron

>

[Guest guest]

> The only thing I'm personally concerned about in using low-grade

> antibiotics (not quality necessarily, but the type of antibiotic-

> tetracycline, minocycline, doxycycline) over a prolonged period of

> time is buiding up resistances.

Meghan,

Most antibiotics kill bacteria by interfering with the synthesis of

the bacterial cell wall. Bacteria develop resistance to these

antibiotics primarily by modifying their cell wall structures.

The " Cycline " family of antibiotics (tetracycline, minocycline,

doxycycline) work entirely differently however. They bind to the

ribosomes in the cytoplasm inside the bacteria instead of attacking

the cell wall. That interferes with the bacteria's ability to

manufacture proteins and prevents it from reproducing instead of

killing the bacteria outright. Because the " Cyclines " attack the

interior of bacteria, it's very difficult for bacteria to develop

resistance to that class of antibiotics and is the reason they can be

used long term without loosing their effectiveness.

Below is an excerpt from an article by Dr. Gabe Mirkin titled " Why I

Prescribe Antibiotics. " The full article can be found at:

http://www.immed.org/reports/treatment_considerations/TreatConsid-

Report-1.html

___________________________________________________

" Shouldn't We Be Concerned About Resistant Bacteria? "

" The argument that giving antibiotics causes bacteria to be resistant

to that antibiotic is reasonable, but it has no place in discouraging

people with these diseases from taking them. First, these people have

serious diseases that cause permanent damage life and death. Second,

the treatments that are available are toxic, shorten life, cause

cancer, and have to be followed by frequent blood tests. On the other

hand, I prescribe derivatives of tetracycline and erythromycin. These

are extraordinarily safe and do not require drawing frequent blood

tests. If you were to become infected subsequently with bacteria that

are resistant to these antibiotics, you would have lost nothing. No

reasonable doctor would prescribe erythromycin or tetracycline for

acute serious diseases, such as meningitis, pneumonia, or an abscess,

because tetracycline and erythromycin do not kill germs, they only

stop them from multiplying. Instead, doctors prescribe far more

bacteriocidal antibiotics that kill bacteria. "

" Many doctors criticize my use of antibiotics, but many antibiotics

are far safer than conventional treatment, cost less, can be

administered by a general practitioner, and often cure the condition,

rather that just suppressing symptoms. I know that most physicians

who develop these conditions will treat themselves with antibiotics

because they know that conventional treatments with prednisone,

chloroquine, azathioprine, and methotrexate are toxic and my

treatments with erythromycins and tetracyclines are safe. "

___________________________________________________

For an excellent discussion of how antibiotics work against bacteria

and how resistance develops, please see " Antibiotics: Antibacterial

Agents " at:

http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/A/Antibiotics.html

In my opinion, a far greater danger to the development of drug

resistant bacteria is the millions of tons of antibiotics that are

routinely and indiscriminately added to livestock feed and sprayed on

agricultural crops every year. The amount of antibiotics consumed by

humans for health reasons is minuscule by comparison. According to

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/agriculture.htm, 70% of all

antibiotics manufactured are used in agricultural settings.

-- Ron

P.S.

The Road Back Foundation website has an excellent article titled " The

Benefits Of Journaling " that you might want to take a look at in

developing your " Daily Pain Diary " that you mentioned in an earlier

post. The URL is:

http://www.roadback.org/lit/facts.php?

file=facts/JOURNALING.shtml & beensubmitted=true

(Note: All the links I've posted above will most likely get wrapped

around into two or more separate lines by . In order to use the

links, it will be necessary to copy/paste each one back into a single

line to put into your web browsers address field. I know it's

inconvenient, but I know of no other solution since HTML hyperlinks

aren't allowed here).

[Guest guest]

Thanks Ron! I'll look into that.

So are you on the antibiotics and would you say you are cured or

almost fully so? Would you say you are significantly controlled by

taking the antibiotics?

The Journaling page looks good in terms of content. That will

definitely be useful if I can get around to making a format like the

other Pain Diary Page.

Thank you!

-Meghan

> > The only thing I'm personally concerned about in using low-grade

> > antibiotics (not quality necessarily, but the type of antibiotic-

> > tetracycline, minocycline, doxycycline) over a prolonged period

of

> > time is buiding up resistances.

>

>

> Meghan,

>

> Most antibiotics kill bacteria by interfering with the synthesis of

> the bacterial cell wall. Bacteria develop resistance to these

> antibiotics primarily by modifying their cell wall structures.

> The " Cycline " family of antibiotics (tetracycline, minocycline,

> doxycycline) work entirely differently however. They bind to the

> ribosomes in the cytoplasm inside the bacteria instead of attacking

> the cell wall. That interferes with the bacteria's ability to

> manufacture proteins and prevents it from reproducing instead of

> killing the bacteria outright. Because the " Cyclines " attack the

> interior of bacteria, it's very difficult for bacteria to develop

> resistance to that class of antibiotics and is the reason they can

be

> used long term without loosing their effectiveness.

>

> Below is an excerpt from an article by Dr. Gabe Mirkin titled " Why

I

> Prescribe Antibiotics. " The full article can be found at:

> http://www.immed.org/reports/treatment_considerations/TreatConsid-

> Report-1.html

> ___________________________________________________

>

> " Shouldn't We Be Concerned About Resistant Bacteria? "

>

> " The argument that giving antibiotics causes bacteria to be

resistant

> to that antibiotic is reasonable, but it has no place in

discouraging

> people with these diseases from taking them. First, these people

have

> serious diseases that cause permanent damage life and death.

Second,

> the treatments that are available are toxic, shorten life, cause

> cancer, and have to be followed by frequent blood tests. On the

other

> hand, I prescribe derivatives of tetracycline and erythromycin.

These

> are extraordinarily safe and do not require drawing frequent blood

> tests. If you were to become infected subsequently with bacteria

that

> are resistant to these antibiotics, you would have lost nothing. No

> reasonable doctor would prescribe erythromycin or tetracycline for

> acute serious diseases, such as meningitis, pneumonia, or an

abscess,

> because tetracycline and erythromycin do not kill germs, they only

> stop them from multiplying. Instead, doctors prescribe far more

> bacteriocidal antibiotics that kill bacteria. "

>

> " Many doctors criticize my use of antibiotics, but many antibiotics

> are far safer than conventional treatment, cost less, can be

> administered by a general practitioner, and often cure the

condition,

> rather that just suppressing symptoms. I know that most physicians

> who develop these conditions will treat themselves with antibiotics

> because they know that conventional treatments with prednisone,

> chloroquine, azathioprine, and methotrexate are toxic and my

> treatments with erythromycins and tetracyclines are safe. "

> ___________________________________________________

>

>

> For an excellent discussion of how antibiotics work against

bacteria

> and how resistance develops, please see " Antibiotics: Antibacterial

> Agents " at:

> http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/A/Antibiotics.html

>

>

> In my opinion, a far greater danger to the development of drug

> resistant bacteria is the millions of tons of antibiotics that are

> routinely and indiscriminately added to livestock feed and sprayed

on

> agricultural crops every year. The amount of antibiotics consumed

by

> humans for health reasons is minuscule by comparison. According to

> http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/agriculture.htm, 70% of all

> antibiotics manufactured are used in agricultural settings.

>

>

> -- Ron

>

>

> P.S.

> The Road Back Foundation website has an excellent article

titled " The

> Benefits Of Journaling " that you might want to take a look at in

> developing your " Daily Pain Diary " that you mentioned in an earlier

> post. The URL is:

>

> http://www.roadback.org/lit/facts.php?

> file=facts/JOURNALING.shtml & beensubmitted=true

>

> (Note: All the links I've posted above will most likely get wrapped

> around into two or more separate lines by . In order to use

the

> links, it will be necessary to copy/paste each one back into a

single

> line to put into your web browsers address field. I know it's

> inconvenient, but I know of no other solution since HTML hyperlinks

> aren't allowed here).

[Guest guest]

Sa wrote:

>

> My best friend (who doesn't trust doctors and is a big believer in holistic

>medicine/alternative healing) has this thing about taking prescription

> medications. She says they often treat the symptoms and not the cause of the

> disease. This is oh so true. I have questioned before the use of

> antibiotics to treat PA. I am currently reading " The New Arthritis

> Breakthrough " by Henry Scammel. I spoke with him a few months back regarding

> AP. He was so kind to call me in person and tell me what >wonderful results

> he had with the treatment.

I agree, he's a very kind -- and knowledgable -- guy. He answered an

e-mail of mine promptly with answers to everything I'd asked. And his

book is terrific, I think!

>I am seeing my rheumy today and I will be asking her for a prescription for

> the antibiotics. I haven't gotten far in my book and my dr. is not

> experienced in this treatment.

I wish you better luck than I had. I only found out about the antibiotic

protocol after visiting a bunch of rheumies and I didn't like the local

one. My GP wouldn't bother with trying the protocol with me (and she's

an osteopath, so you'd think she'd at least be interested); my derm who

is fantastic had trained as a rheumy and was receptive to trying the

protocol but he didn't _know_ it, and then he went on leave so that

avenue was out of the question.

Then I traveled across the country to see a famous AP doc, very well

respected, but I didn't feel he was treating _me_; his approach to the

protocol seems to be one-size-fits-all, plus he rushed me -- I never

felt like I had his full attention.

As you may have learned from even reading part of the book, that isn't

at all how Dr. Brown ever intended the protocol to be used nor was that

how he practiced it. So a couple weeks ago I finally went to see another

AP doctor in another part of the country. Too soon to see results, I

suppose, but at least I really liked him! He takes time with you and

doesn't rush; and he knows the protocol and is willing to work with you.

I think that's essential; maybe especially so for those of us with PA.

The protocol has been used with tremendous success on patients with RA

and with scleraderma, but it seems (and please note I say _seems_) with

somewhat less success on PA folks. That could be because a lot of us

have less dramatic disease symptoms (although that doesn't apply to you,

I'm not implying that!) or because there're fewer of us in general.

> She knows of it and is skeptical however, she said that it wouldn't hurt me

> so she has agreed to let me give it a try.

Might as well try it; however, be patient and do a *lot* of reading on

it; you will likely be helping to educate your doc. Do visit the Road

Back Foundation Web site (http://www.roadback.org/).

>I have some questions.

> 1. Is it better to take minocycline or doxycyline?

For a totally unsatisfactory answer: It seems to depend on the

individual. I did a quickie survey on this subject (and on this list)

some months ago and it was pretty much half and half.

> 2. Which brand is the most effective?

The name brand, definitely. Lederle for mino; Vibramycin or Doryx (I

think; I'm not positive!) for doxy. I say " definitely " because that's

what both the AP docs I saw insisted on. I was on mino. last summer; now

I'm on doxy.

> 3. Is there anything that needs to be taken with the antibiotics? I won't be

> giving up my enbrel until I see results from the antibiotics. I know that

> you have to take a probiotic, right? What would that be? Vitamins,

> supplemennts, etc.?

I can't speak to the combination of Enbrel and antibiotics. You might

post that question on the Road Back Foundation's message board. Yes, you

do need to take a probiotic (acidopholus) with antibiotics. My present

AP doctor has me also take an omega-type oil and a chondroitin

supplement too.

I hope you find some real relief soon!

--Louise