Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Lori, Wow - you've just described my son (2nd grade)! Hugs to you!!! I know exactly what you're going through. We have just about this same conversation. No matter what I say I'm wrong but he says he can't do it and gets so frustrated. He has to push the chair all the way across the room until it's touching the wall. Then he has to either hold onto his shirt at the collar because " it's riding up " or he usually ends up taking his shirt off and there he stands, kicking, screaming, getting so frustrated it breaks my heart, but not before I lose my temper with him and say things I wish I could take back later!! The only good that comes out of the screaming (on my part) is that it seems to scare or shock him 'out of it' and all of a sudden something clicks and he focuses and just completes the homework (usually with me crying in the other room) like it was no problem at all. It is the single MOST frustrating thing ever!!!!! Last year I put off homework until my husband came home becuase I couldn't deal with it alone but this year I found that it's just better to do it first thing, right after school so then it's over with and I don't have to worry about it the rest of the night. It is so good that you have the teacher to go to on this. I don't really have any suggestions for you but I can't wait to hear what others have to say on this. I'm thinking about you and will be thinking about you at homework time today! --- poetry4me75@... wrote: > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to > figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this > problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. > So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is > only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math > program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the > sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite > that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write > the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We > do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an > arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO > that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me > show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any > sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why > can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to > do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she > starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, > but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " > that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting > bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and > she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way > through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher > (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and > her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the > teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do > it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . > Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous > section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and > even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell > her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She > yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when > she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time > explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I > usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to > LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is > in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly > completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a > way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are > very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we > have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it > exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know > she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs > an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She > ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an > error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband > (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me > if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how > am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to > write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak > kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's > new at http://www.aol.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > " Even the smallest person can change the course of the future. " Lord of the Rings, Return of the King ________________________________________________________________________________\ ____ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. 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Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 In a message dated 9/27/2007 10:23:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jenmouer@... writes: she could be " stopping " in her mind...meaning it doesn't matter what she does...if she doesn't do it in the EXACT steps then it is going to be wrong in her mind...and that is not acceptable to her... This is it exactly, she has even told me as much (without the " in your mind " part). It is this exactness...this level of perfection that drives her nuts because, really, she cannot obtain it (like physically impossible). There are 2 specific problems I need to resolve with the teacher...one is the fact she sits at the back of the room (and may be missing part of the in-class conversation) and even if she is not missing anything (don't worry, we have her eyes checked regularly) it cannot hurt to be up there where there are fewer distractions, right? The other thing is that the teacher gives instructions that are not on the worksheet. So she has written down her assignment in the book, has her homework sheet or the book and page number, but cannot recall EXACTLY what her teacher said. And it has to be exact. There have been times I say just what the teachers says, but maybe my words are different, and that is not good enough (I am often heard saying I JUST SAID THAT). ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi Lori, My 8 y.o. DD is exactly the same. She is highly intelligent also (in a full-time class for gifted and talented children). Yet, when her OCD is really bad she can't spell a 3-letter word and she can't do her maths either. Same thing here - after the meltdown will sit quietly and finish her homework. It's bizarre. However, when her OCD isn't too bad she doesn't behave this way. I put it down to being in a highly agitated state. These kids really suffer - big time (and we do along with them). > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 In a message dated 9/27/2007 10:44:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlballard@... writes: Have you seen OCD quirks all along (for example at a very early age my daughter had to have her shoes tied over and over again until they felt just right and socks and underwear were intolerable). Are the symptoms you are seeing now sudden and completely out of character? Do you see rituals that need to be performed like touching things a number of times or hand washing. Are you reassuring her all the time? Does she question you about the same topic often? Are her interests very focused? Does she have sensory issues? This will help when you see a doctor and maximize the limited time you have with this person. Oh my. I think the realization of this problem is starting to sink in and I am scared to death. Can this really be my sweet little girl? Can't I just go back to when she was 2 and 3? The socks and underwear this is right on, shoes, too. She went from not being able to have them tied (no matter how loose, they were too tight) to tying them so tight she broke the shoestrings. We desperately searched for Velcro every time we went to buy new shoes. She asks the obvious, many times. It seems like she needs my constant attention and reassurance. I figured, she is the baby, she will grow out of this. When something is funny, she laughs TOO much, you can tell it is forced after awhile. She often laughs at inappropriate times (when she is in trouble, when someone is frustrated). I have never seen the handwashing or touching. There will be times she just HAS to do something, and often the incident never happens again. She is always organizing the medicine cabinet when she cleans the sink (which is often) and one day my oldest couldn't find something she had organized so he divided the cabinet into thirds (we have 3 kids) and labeled one for each kid. Well she just HAD to organize her section RIGHT NOW and it was already way past bedtime and I told her no, that sleeping was more important than organizing right now and she just lost it. She is preoccupied with being in the front seat, in the front of the lines at school. I wonder if this is to be closer to the adults? It is one of the things the school listed as one of her areas of concern. It causes problems. I could list episodes all day long. A lot of them seem like normal kid issues. As far as earlier childhood, she was the best baby and toddler. Her issues did not start until age 4/5. Even then they were " quirks " , like the shoe/sock thing. I remember having a sock issue when I was a kid (which isn't saying much since I am OCD too). I don't want to list something that is no big deal, meaning, I do not want to make mountains out of molehills. ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 In a message dated 9/27/2007 10:44:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlballard@... writes: followed by a Mood Disorder NOS What is this? Also, looking up Aspergers... ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 In a message dated 9/27/2007 10:53:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mishi8@... writes: Is the method the teacher is using for solving math problems unusual? Does it cause more work than needed? You mentioned that your daughter was in the gifted math program, perhaps the way she is capable of doing math is different than the methods that are being taught, and so it is causing stress that she has to do the work in a way that is counterproductive? YES YES YES. I HATE the way they teach math (I cannot yell this loud enough!). It has caused problems with all 3 of my kids. The difference is, with the other 2, they just do the best they can, or do it the way they know how and move on. My DD has to do it exactly how they tell her, even if there is another acceptable way. What TICKS me off is that they add so many unnecessary steps to solve a simple SIMPLE problem. When I ask about it, they say that is how they HAVE to teach it. It infuriates me. OH don't get me started. Some of the things they teach kids these days are so STUPID (so now you know where my daughter gets that word from LOL) ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Lori Hang in there...my daughter is in 1st grade and I cringe everytime I have to correct her because I don't know what is going to happen... OCD is ever changing and what wasn't a problem one week can suddenly become a problem the next week... Therapists - especially behavorial therapists are used to trying to understand the points you are trying to get across... Right now simply write down things you find " different " about your child...print out what you wrote here (conversation with your daughter) and show it to them. It can be very difficult to explain so you just have to do your best. As for the homework it could be that she is getting stuck - if she is trying to follow what the teacher did and doesn't remember exactly how it was done she could be " stopping " in her mind...meaning it doesn't matter what she does...if she doesn't do it in the EXACT steps then it is going to be wrong in her mind...and that is not acceptable to her... (((hugs))) - I fully understand about wanting to throw your hands up - I spent half my daughters theraphy time last night unloading on her therapist about me TRYING to deal with her and her issues... Jenni > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Lori Hang in there...my daughter is in 1st grade and I cringe everytime I have to correct her because I don't know what is going to happen... OCD is ever changing and what wasn't a problem one week can suddenly become a problem the next week... Therapists - especially behavorial therapists are used to trying to understand the points you are trying to get across... Right now simply write down things you find " different " about your child...print out what you wrote here (conversation with your daughter) and show it to them. It can be very difficult to explain so you just have to do your best. As for the homework it could be that she is getting stuck - if she is trying to follow what the teacher did and doesn't remember exactly how it was done she could be " stopping " in her mind...meaning it doesn't matter what she does...if she doesn't do it in the EXACT steps then it is going to be wrong in her mind...and that is not acceptable to her... (((hugs))) - I fully understand about wanting to throw your hands up - I spent half my daughters theraphy time last night unloading on her therapist about me TRYING to deal with her and her issues... Jenni > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . Lori, I really doubt your daughter is doing any of this to get your attention. This is difficult stuff to be going through for all of you I know, but no child at this age would want to act this way. I could have been reading my own interaction with my daughter word for word when she was in 3rd grade and I understand the upset and frustration your feeling. Perfectionism is a major problem for some kids with OCD and the possibility of being wrong can make a child with anxiety panic and shut down. For a long time we thought this was our daughters problem and I suppose it is at times, on a very small scale. On a bigger scale we now realize that she can not take another persons perspective and because of that, even if we present the math material the same as the teacher she can get lost and angry (because our wording was slightly different or our intonation was off, for example). What I'm trying to say is that our daughter gets stuck on " sameness " because she has Asperger's (and then secondary is the OCD) and cannot tolerate different people teaching her the same material. She now has to be taken out for math and is taught ONE WAY to do a math problem and she gets it right away. Homework is always done in school with the same teacher to avoid the trauma at home you describe in your e-mail. Not to discourage you but it took us two years to get to this point. The OCD was diagnosed two years ago followed by a Mood Disorder NOS but it still did not explain the whole picture. It has taken a lot of energy, tears, doctor appointments, and many gut wrenching testimonials about my daughter's development/behavior to get to an Asperger's diagnosis. It can look very different in girls than in boys who are the traditional model diagnosticians follow, so it was totally off everyone's radar (even mine). The co morbid OCD complicated things as well as it masked a lot of the Asperger's symptoms. My advice is to sit back and think about your daughter and her development from birth to now. Map out all your observations of your daughter, even if you think they are insignificant. How did she play as a baby, toddler, now? Is she social, does she have a lot of friends? Have you seen OCD quirks all along (for example at a very early age my daughter had to have her shoes tied over and over again until they felt just right and socks and underwear were intolerable). Are the symptoms you are seeing now sudden and completely out of character? Do you see rituals that need to be performed like touching things a number of times or hand washing. Are you reassuring her all the time? Does she question you about the same topic often? Are her interests very focused? Does she have sensory issues? This will help when you see a doctor and maximize the limited time you have with this person. I hope this helps, Mother to the wonderful and talented Elise, 10 Asperger's/OCD/Mood Disorder NOS? .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . Lori, I really doubt your daughter is doing any of this to get your attention. This is difficult stuff to be going through for all of you I know, but no child at this age would want to act this way. I could have been reading my own interaction with my daughter word for word when she was in 3rd grade and I understand the upset and frustration your feeling. Perfectionism is a major problem for some kids with OCD and the possibility of being wrong can make a child with anxiety panic and shut down. For a long time we thought this was our daughters problem and I suppose it is at times, on a very small scale. On a bigger scale we now realize that she can not take another persons perspective and because of that, even if we present the math material the same as the teacher she can get lost and angry (because our wording was slightly different or our intonation was off, for example). What I'm trying to say is that our daughter gets stuck on " sameness " because she has Asperger's (and then secondary is the OCD) and cannot tolerate different people teaching her the same material. She now has to be taken out for math and is taught ONE WAY to do a math problem and she gets it right away. Homework is always done in school with the same teacher to avoid the trauma at home you describe in your e-mail. Not to discourage you but it took us two years to get to this point. The OCD was diagnosed two years ago followed by a Mood Disorder NOS but it still did not explain the whole picture. It has taken a lot of energy, tears, doctor appointments, and many gut wrenching testimonials about my daughter's development/behavior to get to an Asperger's diagnosis. It can look very different in girls than in boys who are the traditional model diagnosticians follow, so it was totally off everyone's radar (even mine). The co morbid OCD complicated things as well as it masked a lot of the Asperger's symptoms. My advice is to sit back and think about your daughter and her development from birth to now. Map out all your observations of your daughter, even if you think they are insignificant. How did she play as a baby, toddler, now? Is she social, does she have a lot of friends? Have you seen OCD quirks all along (for example at a very early age my daughter had to have her shoes tied over and over again until they felt just right and socks and underwear were intolerable). Are the symptoms you are seeing now sudden and completely out of character? Do you see rituals that need to be performed like touching things a number of times or hand washing. Are you reassuring her all the time? Does she question you about the same topic often? Are her interests very focused? Does she have sensory issues? This will help when you see a doctor and maximize the limited time you have with this person. I hope this helps, Mother to the wonderful and talented Elise, 10 Asperger's/OCD/Mood Disorder NOS? .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi Lori, Is the method the teacher is using for solving math problems unusual? Does it cause more work than needed? You mentioned that your daughter was in the gifted math program, perhaps the way she is capable of doing math is different than the methods that are being taught, and so it is causing stress that she has to do the work in a way that is counterproductive? For a comparison, my middle son is very good at math until he has to put it to paper. He figured out multiplication when he was four (he's now seven)...he gets the concept, understands the principle and can figure out the answers in his head. But when they started doing math on paper, he slowed down, had a hard time with it. They won't get to multiplication until next year in grade 3, but I anticipate that he will stumble on it, because the methods used to teach and practice will be very different than how he sees the numbers in his head. This son is not OCD, but is gifted/brilliant in perceptual and abstract thinking. He has multiple sensitivities that are part of his personality, and I've come to realize that those sensitivities are " overexcitabilities " that are part of many gifted personalities. You can read more about Dabrowski's Gifted Over-excitabilities here: http:// www.stephanietolan.com/dabrowskis.htm If you Google you'll find many more references and resources in support of gifted children, and more details about over-excitability. > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi Lori, Is the method the teacher is using for solving math problems unusual? Does it cause more work than needed? You mentioned that your daughter was in the gifted math program, perhaps the way she is capable of doing math is different than the methods that are being taught, and so it is causing stress that she has to do the work in a way that is counterproductive? For a comparison, my middle son is very good at math until he has to put it to paper. He figured out multiplication when he was four (he's now seven)...he gets the concept, understands the principle and can figure out the answers in his head. But when they started doing math on paper, he slowed down, had a hard time with it. They won't get to multiplication until next year in grade 3, but I anticipate that he will stumble on it, because the methods used to teach and practice will be very different than how he sees the numbers in his head. This son is not OCD, but is gifted/brilliant in perceptual and abstract thinking. He has multiple sensitivities that are part of his personality, and I've come to realize that those sensitivities are " overexcitabilities " that are part of many gifted personalities. You can read more about Dabrowski's Gifted Over-excitabilities here: http:// www.stephanietolan.com/dabrowskis.htm If you Google you'll find many more references and resources in support of gifted children, and more details about over-excitability. > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi Lori, So sorry you're going through this. My son is such an intense perfectionist he basically can't function in school---he lost it completely the first time he saw a red mark on a paper...in 1st grade! Anyway, I don't know if this would be useful, but a week or two ago the Online Gifted Conferences featured an author of a few books on perfectionism in kids, and the scenario similar to the one you offered was brought up by a few parents. Here's the link to the conference; I'm not sure if it's being archived or not. OGTOC/?yguid=153553834 One thing that came up was the use of the phrase " just do your best. " Apparently (who knew??) that is a stick of dynamite to perfectionists. It sure is to my son (and it was to me as a competitive runner---in the back of my mind, " doing my best " meant pushing myself to the brink of death to win a race; in fact, I believe I had fantasies of dropping dead on the finish line to give our team a victory!). Anyway, good luck. That's a very tough cycle to be in. Cat > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Hi Lori, So sorry you're going through this. My son is such an intense perfectionist he basically can't function in school---he lost it completely the first time he saw a red mark on a paper...in 1st grade! Anyway, I don't know if this would be useful, but a week or two ago the Online Gifted Conferences featured an author of a few books on perfectionism in kids, and the scenario similar to the one you offered was brought up by a few parents. Here's the link to the conference; I'm not sure if it's being archived or not. OGTOC/?yguid=153553834 One thing that came up was the use of the phrase " just do your best. " Apparently (who knew??) that is a stick of dynamite to perfectionists. It sure is to my son (and it was to me as a competitive runner---in the back of my mind, " doing my best " meant pushing myself to the brink of death to win a race; in fact, I believe I had fantasies of dropping dead on the finish line to give our team a victory!). Anyway, good luck. That's a very tough cycle to be in. Cat > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 I had to laugh - this was exactally what my 10 year old son went through! We would struggle with homework for -I'm not kidding- 6 hours a night! He wanted to do the work, but, like your daughter, had so much anxiety about getting it wrong, he couldn't do anything. We solved the problem by having me write for him. I have to start writing when he begins his homework, because if he starts, he can't let me finish if it gives him trouble. This was last year, and we have continued it so far this year. Occasionally this year he has been able to write one or two problems on his own, but if I notice he is getting upset I stop him. Good Luck! Debi > > Let me see if I can explain this. I am trying to figure out if this is OCD > or something else. Before I explain, let me say this problem JUST started and > that ,until this school year, it was not an issue. So I am considering the > teacher has something to do with it? > My dd is in 3rd grade. They have homework. It is only the math homework that > stems this (so far). She was in the gifted math program last year because > she scores way above average on math. Now all the sudden, she doesn't seem to > be able to comprehend it? But it is not quite that...here is what happens. > > DD: Mom, can you help me with my math? > Me: Sure honey. > DD: I don't get what I am supposed to do here. > Me: Ok, let me look...well it says you should write the problem out and.... > DD: NO NO NO that is NOT what the teacher said. We do it differently in > class! > Me: Ok, what does your teacher tell you? > DD: She says we have to make a line and draw an arrow (etc.). > Me: Ok, then do that. > DD: But I don't GET it, how am I supposed to DO that? > Me: Well, just like she showed you in class, let me show you.. > DD: NO NO this is so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. > Me: Well honey, you just TOLD me how to do it, why can't you do what you > just said? > DD: Because I don't GET it. This is stupid. > Me: What don't you get? > DD: What I am supposed to do! > Me: But you just TOLD me what you are supposed to do. > DD: But I don't GET it. This is so stupid. > > And then it goes on and on in circles until she starts crying, throws a fit > or whatever. She can explain it, show me, tell me, but cannot do it with her > actual homework. If I tell her to just " do her best " that is no good. She is > a perfectionist. she will start crying about getting bad grades (even tho > their homework does not even count for a grad) and she will say she just wants > to get it right. Sometimes she will get half way through her math paper before > suddenly being unable to finish. We call her teacher (we have her cell number > and she has said to call as much as we need to) and her teacher explains it > to me the same way I explained it to her and the teacher explains it to her > the same way again and she then thinks she can do it, only she starts to them > starts erasing and goes back to " I don't get it " . Sometimes she has done > practically the exact same thing in the previous section of her paper but they > change something slightly (like the format) and even tho the way to solve is > the same...she just cannot do it. > Often I throw my hands up in exasperation and tell her just NOT to do it > (unacceptable to her) and I will not help her. She yells at me, won't listen to > anything I say and seems not to have listened when she asks me how to do > something I JUST explained. After the 5th time explaining and the 5th time of her > interrupting me to tell me I AM WRONG I just quit. I usually end up yelling > at her and regretting it, telling her she needs to LISTEN to me, why ask for > my help if she won't listen? I am in tears, she is in tears and the homework > is not done. Then after a few minutes...she quietly completes the paper as if > she always knew how to do it. > What IS this?? It seems, on the surface, as just a way of getting my > attention, but it is too complicated, the tears are very genuine and the frustration > is, too. Looking from an OCD perspective (recall we have not had a diagnosis > yet) I see her obsessing with having to have it exactly right, but I don't > understand why she says she doesn't " get it " . I know she knows it, it is like > she is unable to proceed for some reason. She needs an impossible amount of > reassurance she is going to do it correctly. She ALWAYS has me check all her > work. I am to the point now I fear pointing out an error because of her > reaction. > I end practically every night saying to my husband (in private) " I cannot do > this. I am not going to survive this. " He asked me if I scheduled MY > appointment for after hers LOL. > These things are so hard to explain to people, how am I ever going to convey > the problem when we get to the appt? I have tried to write a list and > simplify it but there seems to be no way to. > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Lori, A mood Disorder NOS is a diagnosis they give when someone doesn’t fit all the criteria for Bipolar but has a lot of symptoms. We are now in a wait and see mode when it comes to bipolar because a lot of her moods could be explained by the Asperger’s. Because it is such a struggle to understand and navigate the world and more importantly the people in it she often gets angry and upset. We are hoping that her moods will improve with the treatment of the Asperger’s symptoms. Asperger’s is a high functioning form Autism (or some say, that is a debate for the experts not me) but it helps explain it the best as the two share a lot of the same social deficits. The big difference between Asperger’s girls and Autism is that, they can be very verbal (at the age of 1 year my daughter was speaking in full sentences) and are often of average intelligence to above intelligence (when tested she scored in the superior range) but a lot of the times (as they get older) performance will not match the ability. Often girls with Asperger’s have a great interest in reading. I am using generalizations though, and probably should not because the surprising thing about Asperger’s kids is they can be profoundly different. But all have very real, debilitating social deficits that get worse as their pier groups get older and nonverbal language becomes more sophisticated (around 3rd grade). What I found interesting about your daughter is that she is now having problems in math in 3rd grade (this can be very typical for Asperger’s girls). Also sensory issues are profound for Asperger’s children; Elise’s problems are very tactile (she can only wear certain clothing and one type of shoe, it’s almost impossible to transition from summer to fall) but she also has problems with sound (crowds, loud noises, voices can sometimes be problematic. I am in no way saying your daughter has Asperger’s but I would advise you not to box yourself into an IDEA about what your daughter might be affected by and be open. I did this with Bipolar and totally missed the real problem affecting Elise. I know it’s a scary time but remember that knowledge is power and with a diagnosis you can be armed to help her better handle the future. Anytime you want to talk, I’m mostly a lurker on this site but am here almost every day. _____ From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of poetry4me75@... Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Homework In a message dated 9/27/2007 10:44:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlballardcomcast (DOT) <mailto:hlballard%40comcast.net> net writes: followed by a Mood Disorder NOS What is this? Also, looking up Aspergers... ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol. <http://www.aol.com> com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 My daughter refused to wear anything BUT velcro shoes, though that may be partly fine motor skills deficits. But she was always large for her age, so it was hard to find velcro shoes after about age 5! My daughter used to laugh too hard....forcing, like you said. She's outgrown it now. But sometimes she will over-try being funny. Repeating the same joke. Again, she's getting better. Part of it is normal, I think, for middle school. But she definitely stands out. Laurie In a message dated 9/27/2007 10:44:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlballard@... writes: Oh my. I think the realization of this problem is starting to sink in and I am scared to death. Can this really be my sweet little girl? Can't I just go back to when she was 2 and 3? The socks and underwear this is right on, shoes, too. She went from not being able to have them tied (no matter how loose, they were too tight) to tying them so tight she broke the shoestrings. We desperately searched for Velcro every time we went to buy new shoes. She asks the obvious, many times. It seems like she needs my constant attention and reassurance. I figured, she is the baby, she will grow out of this. When something is funny, she laughs TOO much, you can tell it is forced after awhile. She often laughs at inappropriate times (when she is in trouble, when someone is frustrated). I have never seen the handwashing or touching. There will be times she just HAS to do something, and often the incident never happens again. As far as earlier childhood, she was the best baby and toddler. Her issues did not start until age 4/5. Even then they were " quirks " , like the shoe/sock thing. I remember having a sock issue when I was a kid (which isn't saying much since I am OCD too). I don't want to list something that is no big deal, meaning, I do not want to make mountains out of molehills. ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Lori, one thing I managed to get a math teacher to do is agree that just had to show the steps to the 1st problem and then he could write the answers to the others. So - show steps to the first problem of each/similar type. With , he usually was 100% on all his work so this wasn't a bad way to do things for him. Now if someone is having problems understanding the math, then this wouldn't work well. They would need the steps to solve it and then the teacher needs to see the steps they took so she/he could see where the student was wrong in their figuring. Yep, I was ready to blow up in...I think it was 8th grade. would get problems marked wrong for not showing the steps to his math. He did a lot of math in his head; sometimes he couldn't show the steps to how he got it or explain how he got it. From reading some of the replies to your original post on this -- seems like a lot of us have gone thru the terrible homework times. You situation with your daughter has some OCD to it I know. But my oldest son and me (he's now 22) could NOT do homework together; ended up like it is at your home. Same situation with math ( " that's NOT how she told us to do it! " ). > YES YES YES. I HATE the way they teach math (I cannot yell this loud > enough!). It has caused problems with all 3 of my kids. The difference is, with the > other 2, they just do the best they can, or do it the way they know how and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Lori, one thing I managed to get a math teacher to do is agree that just had to show the steps to the 1st problem and then he could write the answers to the others. So - show steps to the first problem of each/similar type. With , he usually was 100% on all his work so this wasn't a bad way to do things for him. Now if someone is having problems understanding the math, then this wouldn't work well. They would need the steps to solve it and then the teacher needs to see the steps they took so she/he could see where the student was wrong in their figuring. Yep, I was ready to blow up in...I think it was 8th grade. would get problems marked wrong for not showing the steps to his math. He did a lot of math in his head; sometimes he couldn't show the steps to how he got it or explain how he got it. From reading some of the replies to your original post on this -- seems like a lot of us have gone thru the terrible homework times. You situation with your daughter has some OCD to it I know. But my oldest son and me (he's now 22) could NOT do homework together; ended up like it is at your home. Same situation with math ( " that's NOT how she told us to do it! " ). > YES YES YES. I HATE the way they teach math (I cannot yell this loud > enough!). It has caused problems with all 3 of my kids. The difference is, with the > other 2, they just do the best they can, or do it the way they know how and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 We have a mantra at our house when we're dealing with just what you describe: " Math books are stupid! " If one of the kids starts getting frustrated with math homework, I ask everyone to put down their pencils and we say the mantra a few times. I finish by saying the textbooks are stupid, not the kids. We are currently working on an IEP for our daughter as Math is frustrating her. No wonder, the way they're teaching it is just so stupid. Both dh and I LOVE math, we're really good at it, have taken university level courses, and sometimes we have a hard time figuring out what they want. Like " Simplify this equation " meaning just " find the answer " . Sheesh. Or they had a circle with a radius drawn in with a 1 beside it, and pi at the top of the page =3.14. Then they said calculate the circumference of a circle with a radius of 2. There was no equation, no explanation, and a series of problems to solve. I talked to the teacher and he said they covered it in class and he wrote it on the board. But it wasn't even in the textbook! I'm considering asking for an alternative math program that she can do and she can work with a tutor or at her own pace. I'm thinking either Singapore or something like that. She is going to have modifications like: the teacher has to write down everything that is expected, if there are notes on the board, they have to be in writing too, she has extra time for tests etc. The IEP meeting is next week, but these are recommendations that came out of the psychoeducational assessment she had done last summer. Theresa (in Vancouver, Canada) dd12 OCD & depression, 3mg melatonin for sleep; ds10; dd5 > > > YES YES YES. I HATE the way they teach math (I cannot yell this loud > enough!). It has caused problems with all 3 of my kids. The difference is, with the > other 2, they just do the best they can, or do it the way they know how and > move on. My DD has to do it exactly how they tell her, even if there is > another acceptable way. What TICKS me off is that they add so many unnecessary > steps to solve a simple SIMPLE problem. When I ask about it, they say that is how > they HAVE to teach it. It infuriates me. OH don't get me started. Some of > the things they teach kids these days are so STUPID (so now you know where my > daughter gets that word from LOL) > > ~~Lori > > Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to > God. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2007 Report Share Posted September 27, 2007 Theresa, I just had to say that we dislike the " new math " very much as well and are part of a parent group trying to change it. It's horrible and both my 4th and 7th graders are getting straight A's in math, but I wonder if they will actually be able to do any math on an SAT. So, I FEEL your child's frustration! We do Singapore math at home. Dina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Lori: OMG! You must have been sitting at my kitchen table last night! I haven't posted here for over a year, but am always quietly reading posts. Last night's homework session was so torturous I decided I needed to vent here - and then turned on my computer to find your homework conversation with your DD. My DS (age 12, OCD/GAD) is SO triggered by math. He's in 6th grade, and still cant complete one problem without me sitting right next to him reiterating every step. Last night it wasn't just the math though, it was the English too. His assignment: he was given a question (how are pizza and milk alike?) and told to write a creative topic sentence as if he were beginning an essay on this. Now granted this was a little confusing, against intuition etc. But my DS sat there screaming - " How is that a question??!! " " over and over. He's begging me to answer, but he's not even asking a rational question! And then the math - " I don't GET it!! What does GREATEST mean?!! " - ME: " it means bigger than " HIM: " But what does it MEAN!! " - and yes, after we have both been reduced to tearsand screaming (because just like your dd he can't NOT do it), he sits down quietly and completes it. SO helpful to know I am not the only one experiencing this and not the only one reduced to throwing my own temper tantrum too. Sometimes when he is so stuck and badgering me if literally feels like I am being assaulted (one time I counted - he screamed " mom! " at me 157 times in a row without even giving me 2 seconds to respond). The worst part of this is that it seems so random. It's not every day - just happens out of nowhere - even he can't really say why. I am thinking of seeking out a 504 that gives him an extra day to do any homework without consequence, in hopes that he can learn that he can just put it aside. Has anyone out there done this. The only concern is that it will make for double homework the next night. Sigh.... - in MI ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 Lori: OMG! You must have been sitting at my kitchen table last night! I haven't posted here for over a year, but am always quietly reading posts. Last night's homework session was so torturous I decided I needed to vent here - and then turned on my computer to find your homework conversation with your DD. My DS (age 12, OCD/GAD) is SO triggered by math. He's in 6th grade, and still cant complete one problem without me sitting right next to him reiterating every step. Last night it wasn't just the math though, it was the English too. His assignment: he was given a question (how are pizza and milk alike?) and told to write a creative topic sentence as if he were beginning an essay on this. Now granted this was a little confusing, against intuition etc. But my DS sat there screaming - " How is that a question??!! " " over and over. He's begging me to answer, but he's not even asking a rational question! And then the math - " I don't GET it!! What does GREATEST mean?!! " - ME: " it means bigger than " HIM: " But what does it MEAN!! " - and yes, after we have both been reduced to tearsand screaming (because just like your dd he can't NOT do it), he sits down quietly and completes it. SO helpful to know I am not the only one experiencing this and not the only one reduced to throwing my own temper tantrum too. Sometimes when he is so stuck and badgering me if literally feels like I am being assaulted (one time I counted - he screamed " mom! " at me 157 times in a row without even giving me 2 seconds to respond). The worst part of this is that it seems so random. It's not every day - just happens out of nowhere - even he can't really say why. I am thinking of seeking out a 504 that gives him an extra day to do any homework without consequence, in hopes that he can learn that he can just put it aside. Has anyone out there done this. The only concern is that it will make for double homework the next night. Sigh.... - in MI ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 In a message dated 9/27/2007 5:07:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlballard@... writes: am in no way saying your daughter has Asperger’s but I would advise you not to box yourself into an IDEA about what your daughter might be affected by and be open. And I was thinking about whether I should say anything to her Dr about what I suspect. I am just going to present fact and see what he says. I don't wan to bias him. I did look up Asperger's and it does not sound like my DD at all. She is VERY social and has a zillion friends, and really I did not see she had any of the symptoms. However, I know some diagnoses can be hard because the symptoms are hidden. It took my Drs forever to diagnose me with PCOS because I have atypical symptoms. ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2007 Report Share Posted September 28, 2007 In a message dated 9/27/2007 5:07:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hlballard@... writes: am in no way saying your daughter has Asperger’s but I would advise you not to box yourself into an IDEA about what your daughter might be affected by and be open. And I was thinking about whether I should say anything to her Dr about what I suspect. I am just going to present fact and see what he says. I don't wan to bias him. I did look up Asperger's and it does not sound like my DD at all. She is VERY social and has a zillion friends, and really I did not see she had any of the symptoms. However, I know some diagnoses can be hard because the symptoms are hidden. It took my Drs forever to diagnose me with PCOS because I have atypical symptoms. ~~Lori Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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