RE: Digest Number 1254

[Guest guest]

As far as Oprah goes, Some of you must have SMALL memories too! I was at a

taping of one of her shows in 91 with a Gay cousin on mine. Show entitled

" Women who left their husbands for Lesbian Lovers " ! Gee, kinda gives JERRY an

Idea for a show. Get off MUARYS Back, and do something creative with your

life's, and leave those people who get to Do his show alone!

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

>I am trying to get a flight to Baltimore from Raleigh, NC as I'm

>typing this. We plan to fly there & back (for our apptmt w/ Dr Ain)

>in the same day. Has anyone else ever done this? ...

>Does anyone have suggestions on how to get from the airport to J.

>Hopkins? Are there shuttles, cabs, should I rent a car?

My soon to be 9 y/o son Curtis has received a great deal of treatment at

s Hopkins. We just got back from seeing Dr. Ain and Dr. Carson. We had

to drive from Maine because Curtis was in a body brace from spinal surgery.

I know that there is a Shuttle Service at BWI for transportation to hotels.

I don't know if they'd go to JHH, but I do know that you have to wait a long

to time get a shuttle bus. We've taken cabs from BWI to hotels in the Inner

Harbor and it has cost between $21-$25. JHH is about 5 miles from the Inner

Harbor. I'd recommend renting a car because you are trying to do everything

in one day.

Dee is the Clinical Coordinator for the Greenberg Center for Skeletal

Dysplasia at JHH. She may be able to help you. Her phone number is

(410)614-0977.

Good luck,

Forsley

[Guest guest]

Joe:

I don't disagree with you -- the ideal situation for someone affected by

toxic mold is obviously to get as far away from the problem as possible.

And in extreme cases, no one should occupy the home. I'm merely

pointing out that there are some people that have no choice -- I've run

into a number of people lately that either can't afford to leave or

refuse to leave. In this case, finding and fixing the source of

moisture/humidity and then treating the home with ozone, chlorine

dioxide, or the new ethylene glycol treatment is better than scrubbing

the walls with bleach and calling an exorcist.

There's also some things that are just too precious to dump -- my great

uncle was an artist and left behind many very valuable paintings, which

my sister has in her (infested) home. The financial loss of these

paintings would be major, but the sentimental loss to our family would

be even greater. In this case, Chlorine Dioxide and UV treatments are

definitely out. Ozone MAY be OK, but we are concered about what it

would do to oil paintings. I'm sure there are many other examples --

people's photos, etc.

I know that there are people higher up working on proof of what ozone

will do to mycotoxins, but at present it is VERY difficult to find

anyone that is willing to even work with them due to the expense and the

danger of doing so. The lack of mycotoxin research is precisely what

the insurance companies cite as proof that mycotoxins are not harmful in

the air.

Anyway -- I hope you don't think I'm being hard on you -- you seem to be

one of the few MDs (for now at least) that takes this problem seriously.

I just want to draw a line between what we do and what the public can

get at the Sharper Image or from Alpine.

Jeff R.

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Message: 7

Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 10:50:44 -0700 (PDT)

From: Joe Klein <epistrophy1@...>

Subject: Re: RE: Ozone Generators

Jeff,

Killing live mold is not the answer for those who are sensitive to and

affected by the mold's mycotoxins. What is needed is a proven process

that will denature or destroy the real culprit, the mycotoxins. For

now, the best solution seems for those poisoned individuals to get out

of the contaminated environment and get rid of their contaminated

possessions. If the individual is merely allergic to mold, then any

processes which kills live mold will probably work. But, especially for

stachybotrys, the real problem is invariably mycotoxicity. Therefore,

until there is a process that is scientifically proven to actually

destroy or denature the mycotoxins, it is my opinion that those

sensitized individuals should be permanently removed from their

contaminated enviornment. They should not delay taking the necessary

steps in hope that some process will get rid of the mycotoxins and solve

thier problem. I am convinced, by my own experience and by the

experience of others, that the duration and intensity of mycotoxin

exposure is directly related to the speed and degree of recovery.

Joe

Jeff and <jeff@...> wrote:

Joe:

I believe you and I have been over this before -- you made the

rediculous request for me to post the reports on double blind studies on

people exposed to toxic mold to prove that ozone shock treatment would

allow them to move back in.

You seem to be purposely mis-characterizing our entire process out of a

preconceived bias. You quote the EPA position paper entitled " Ozone

Generators That Are Sold As Air Cleaners " as the basis for your claims,

yet this is a gross misrepresentation. We do not sell devices, nor are

our generators purported to be air cleaners.

I have probably explained the difference too many times now, but

basically stated, the " air cleaners " use a low level of ozone -- we use

an extremely high level. Our system is more or less the same as that

used to fumigate the capitol office building, but we use ozone instead

of chlorine dioxide. Due to the differences in the nature of the two

gasses, our process doesn't require nearly the complicated protocols

that chlorine dioxide requires.

HOWEVER, I do have a number of studies from various laboratories and

other sources that show that ozone is effective in eliminating a

variety of contaminants. We also have inspection reports that

demonstrate the effectiveness of our method at killing mold in a home. I

could poste them, but they are quite large; therefore I would ask that

anyone that wants them e-mail and I will forward them.

YES -- I do have a vested interest in it, and if you read my past

postings, I am sure that you will find that I have never hidden that

fact. I also have pointed out to people that no method, is perfect --

some people are able to simply clean up with bleach, some find our

method effective, and some people are so severely affected that they can

never be in a home that has had even a small amount of mold. BUT, to

categorically dismiss everything is to eliminate a lot of viable

alternatives for people that might need every alternative they can get.

Your argument that everything must be backed up with scientific evidence

is good, but it reminds me of a period in the history of medicine where

all diseases were thought to be in the blood, and the existence of

microbes was categorically dismissed by the establishemnt. This is the

same argument that the insurance companies use -- " there is no

scientific evidence that mold is the actual cause of these diseases, so

therefore it must be harmless " .

The evidence is there, and it is supported by the FDA and other

agencies, and supported by private studies as well.

We DO NOT recommend that anyone use an ozone generator in their home, so

please don't lump us in with something that is radically different and

sold by MLM!!

Our process is relatively inexpensive -- at present, we can't get inside

wall cavities, etc., but that is in the works. There are certain

circumstances in which it will work, and others where it will not. You

can't dimiss auto body repair, simply because it can't completely repair

a car that has been totaled out in a head-on collision with a dump

truck.

It IS a good alternative for many people -- for the very sensitive, it

will at least allow them to regain some of their posessions.

In many cases, the only alternative is to burn the house and all the

contents -- how many people can afford to do that? For those that can,

great! For the rest of us, this (ozone shock treatment) is a viable

alternative.

Jeff and

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4

Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:00:02 -0700 (PDT)

From: Joe Klein <epistrophy1@...>

Subject: Re: Ozone Generators

Jim,

Thank you for presenting an article from a reputable, unbiased source

which gives us a well reasoned, scientific basis for its statements and

conclusions. There are many people, some with life threatening

illnesses, who come to this board for help. They need to be able to

distinguish between that which is scientifically proven, that which is

scientifically unproven, and that which is mere conjecture; that is,

information which is proven to be true by scientific evidence,

information which is proven to be false by scientific evidence and

information which is purportedly given as fact but which in reality is

hype.

They also need to be able to evaluate the source of the information. Is

it from a known, reliable, unbiased source or is it from a source with a

potential bias such as a product manufacturer, a product distributor or

a product salesperson? Is it from a source that purports to be

legitimate by way of a clever sounding name or a name that is close to

that of a reputable source, but in fact is an arm of a product

manufacturer/distributor?

Jim, you are to be commended for presenting this report. This board

needs more of this type of well reasoned information, rather than hype,

conjecture and sales pitches.

I think if someone presents information which they believe to be fact ,

it should be supported by authoritative scientific documentation. If a

person wants to present information based on their observations, that is

fine, just as long as they tell us that this is their opinion and what

their opinion is based upon.

I find two things about this board that are the most interesting and

valuable to me:

1. The individual stories and experiences of persons exposed to

toxic mold/toxic chemicals. These stories and experiences are

invaluable to our further understanding of this multifaceted disease.

Those who read the posts have the opportunity to be of a real service to

those who are in need.

2. Scientific articles from reliable resources, germane to this

subject, as you, Jim, have posted.

ph P. Klein, Sr.,M.D.

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Joe

Jeff and <jeff@...> wrote: Joe:I don't disagree with you -- the ideal situation for someone affected bytoxic mold is obviously to get as far away from the problem as possible.And in extreme cases, no one should occupy the home. I'm merelypointing out that there are some people that have no choice -- I've runinto a number of people lately that either can't afford to leave orrefuse to leave. In this case, finding and fixing the source ofmoisture/humidity and then treating the home with ozone, chlorinedioxide, or the new ethylene glycol treatment is better than scrubbingthe walls with bleach and calling an exorcist.There's also some things that are just too precious to dump -- my greatuncle was an artist and left behind many very valuable paintings, whichmy sister has in her (infested) home. The financial loss of thesepaintings would be major, but the sentimental loss to our family wouldbe even greater. In this case, Chlorine Dioxide and UV treatments aredefinitely out. Ozone MAY be OK, but we are concered about what itwould do to oil paintings. I'm sure there are many other examples --people's photos, etc.I know that there are people higher up working on proof of what ozonewill do to mycotoxins, but at present it is VERY difficult to findanyone that is willing to even work with them due to the expense and thedanger of doing so. The lack of mycotoxin research is precisely whatthe insurance companies cite as proof that mycotoxins are not harmful inthe air.Anyway -- I hope you don't think I'm being hard on you -- you seem to beone of the few MDs (for now at least) that takes this problem seriously.I just want to draw a line between what we do and what the public canget at the Sharper Image or from Alpine.Jeff R.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/1/03 9:52:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

> From: " zoe88025 " <Zll51@...>

> Subject: Re: Hair Mineral Analysis--Results

>

>

>

> Barb, this was a hair anaylisis, not blood. You may want to check out

> this site (http://www.pathmed.com/p/29.html) and ask them if they

> have anyone to refer you to in your area if you aren't near enough to

> them. Marilyn checked them out. Ask what she thinks. You're doing

> the best you can, so pat yourself on the back once in a while.

> Zoe

>

Barb

I am now 30+ years 'in the trenches' with my adopted son.... so, just know

that you are NOT ALONE.

At this point, we live on disability income as my spouse just upped and

died without warning several years ago.

If I could find the $$$ for travel and lodgings costs, Charlie would be at

pathmed.com this afternoon.

I've seen Dr Braverman's book, read his reaseach, looked at his site and

filled about the 20+ page medical history.

The body fluids testing plus the BEAM brain testing resonate strongly with

me.

Braverman, MD, specializes in brain issues not limited to seizures,

ADD, etc.

Hope this helps

mjh

MJH

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/1/03 9:52:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

> Barb,

>

> With all you're doing, something will come through for you and your

> daughter. Take time to care for yourself, regroup, make yourself calm

> so you can manage this struggle. Don't forget to make the " lemonade " !

> Zoe

>

I prefer a hot bath with lots of Epsom salts and some essential oil of

Lavendar for a good half hour accompanied by a hot fudge sundae on first rate

French

vanilla ice cream.

mjh

MJH

[Guest guest]

MJH,

Thanks for your encouragement. I'm exhausted after 6 months of 'the

trenches', I can't imagine 30 years. You are an amazing mom, Charlie is

blessed to have you!! I'm sorry to hear about your husband. Life for some

people flows so easily, and others just have to fight every step. Thanks

for being so open and supportive. I've got allot of research to do now this

weekend. I'll let you all know where I end up.

Barb

Re: Hair Mineral Analysis--Results

> >

> >

> >

> > Barb, this was a hair anaylisis, not blood. You may want to check out

> > this site (http://www.pathmed.com/p/29.html) and ask them if they

> > have anyone to refer you to in your area if you aren't near enough to

> > them. Marilyn checked them out. Ask what she thinks. You're doing

> > the best you can, so pat yourself on the back once in a while.

> > Zoe

> >

>

> Barb

> I am now 30+ years 'in the trenches' with my adopted son.... so, just

know

> that you are NOT ALONE.

> At this point, we live on disability income as my spouse just upped and

> died without warning several years ago.

> If I could find the $$$ for travel and lodgings costs, Charlie would be

at

> pathmed.com this afternoon.

> I've seen Dr Braverman's book, read his reaseach, looked at his site

and

> filled about the 20+ page medical history.

> The body fluids testing plus the BEAM brain testing resonate strongly

with

> me.

> Braverman, MD, specializes in brain issues not limited to seizures,

> ADD, etc.

> Hope this helps

> mjh

>

> MJH

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

MJH and Zoe

Thanks, even the thought of it helps me relax. I have only left 's

side once since this started in March. That planned seemed okay initially

when I thought we would obtain seizure control quickly. However this has

become rather long and drawn out. It's also hard for me to relax when she's

sleeping because that's when my brain is free to dig (and stress). But I

better slow down soon. Your support is invaluable thank you all!!

Barb

Re: [ ] Digest Number 1254

> In a message dated 10/1/03 9:52:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> writes:

>

>

> > Barb,

> >

> > With all you're doing, something will come through for you and your

> > daughter. Take time to care for yourself, regroup, make yourself calm

> > so you can manage this struggle. Don't forget to make the " lemonade " !

> > Zoe

> >

>

> I prefer a hot bath with lots of Epsom salts and some essential oil of

> Lavendar for a good half hour accompanied by a hot fudge sundae on first

rate French

> vanilla ice cream.

> mjh

>

> MJH

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

: Thanks for letting us know about this. It's another ugly case of abuse by

government power. I read the files and wrote a letter to the presiding judge.

By the way Tim Bolton played a large part in getting California medical practice

law changed. " Medical Practice " is now defined, in California, as surgery,

injection, prescription drugs and not much else. If a health practitioner is not

pretending to be a licensed M.D. and not penetrating the body with instruments

nor prescribing drugs he or she is not practicing medicine and doesn't need a

license and can't be prosecuted for not having one.

Again thanks for letting us know. I always feel better taking timely action than

complaining after it's all over!

Beggs

wrote:

____________________________________________________

This is HUGE!

1) Benninghoff needs to get massive public support A.S.A.P. so that he

can win this case and allow " Lay Representation " to continue, and

2) The CMBS retaliated in this way to cover up a legislative

investigation of their own operation and protect their activities. As

soon as Benninghoff wins his case, there needs to be a MASSIVE

INVESTIGATION of the CMBS to open and review their prior cases and

investigate if they did this illegal activity with other cases. If so,

that could reverse many of the prior cases!

Tim Bolen has written a terrific article with all the details about this

case, see it here:

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/calmedbrd.htm

THIS IS BIG! VERY IMPORTANT! WE NEED YOUR HELP!

Charlebois

Normal, Illinois

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